G2G Very good post... you make some very good observations.

.....and thanks to all the many good points made on this thread.

Just like many many people here.. long long BEFORE the R Material, I always had mystical experiences.

But I can NEVER do anything ON THE COMMAND /DEMAND of it.. things just happened to me.

I do not do a list or C & E.. for me those things just complicate things.

Keep your life simple... walk and live your life. Take Action as you follow spirit within.

The only thing I do now is SURRENDER the details / outcome to the Higher Self... then WALK in my life and things just show up.
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I would NOT call that MANIFESTING on the COMMAND of it. I would call it more syncronisity of my needs just happening.
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If you remember the SELLING PONT of the groups are INSTANT MANIFESTATION... void of the effort..

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I feel very sad for those people who are still struggling... I have no idea WHY??? some people can seem to pull themself up and MARCH ON and do well as others have that same desire and it does not work.

That is a total mystery.

For me, to make the awesome clamis that these organization are making... The SUCCESS would be ACROSS THE BOARD SUCCESS... not just a few hits and mostly misses.

In science those hits are within the fudge area... and would not be considered.

I would ask, if they can take credit for reading the cards.. is it ON THE COMMAND... EFFORTLESS... and how about the rest of their life... is it WHOLESOME and are they WELL within their being?

The PROOF of Education is when 90% or more are SUCCESSFULL DEMONSTRATING what they have learned.

Why do people go to College....with a College Degree the opportunities for you to do well and get paid better are possible... sure a few will not make it but most with some College can at least support their family.

One or two people out of 10's of thousands does not PROVE the school's education system works.

All of those methods used at the school REQUIRE you to MANIPULATE... not be in a state of NATURAL GRACE.

Again, the Ram first talks about living and BEING in a Natural State.... Creation by the PRESENCE of self... now for the past 10 years.. it is all about MANIPULATION.... WHICH IS IT?

Natural - Presence of Self or
Manipulation.

Ever person on the board I am sure, has had many many success stories... but if you look deeper at those stories you will find... THEY DID NOT CONSISTENTLY have the same results.

Belive me, it 90% of this school was creating BIG success stories.. it would be on the front pages of the New York Times.. so many people would COME FORWARD and BE THE PROOF... this is simply not happening.

It is a Hit and Miss school... and when there is failure.. it is the students fault... and when there is success.. they get the credit.

That is the point. The student loses in both cases.

Tree, I have been in and out of school since the mid 90's, and returned to a beginner event last spring and returning for my follow up. I didn't even hear about all of this until I picked up the paper and learned about Saturday's meeting, and where I found out about this site. I was shocked at the accusations that somehow JZ was responsible for death of the students attending school. I have always heard Ramtha say that if you can't manifest bread from nothing yet, then keep buying food. And to keep taking your medication and seeing a doctor until you have the power to heal yourself. He never said that simply by coming to school, you get automatic immunity from death. I know that this is not a pro RSE site, but I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle and the truth is what I am looking for. As for Master of Music reading cards or not reading cards, this woman has gone through a complete transformation since I saw her a few years ago. She's not even the same person. Something is working.

Yes, Gabe. DEBBIE WORKED VERY HARD TO SEE THROUGH THE CARDS. That is what is working; the old-fashioned way, not with "instant manifestation." RSE does NOT follow through with providing statistics. The "testimonials" I heard as to healing were not anything I would call a "miracle." There is no one from the outside to document it; it's within the person's "mind." So perhaps there is a "placebo effect" going on, of course, we couldn't get stats on that either. For a group that claims to have stats, they certainly will not part with them.

This is how the "documented healings" are ah, documented? A teacher or JZR will ask, if you've been "healed" stand up. Then she asks another question, how many got their remote views, stand up. Then, how many got their cards, stand up. Then how many got a bale of hay or target in archery, stand up. How many - it goes on until you have nearly the entire arena standing up. That is not "documentation." The other manner is when people were asked (when there was prestigious guest speaker from Harvard - I shuddered in embarrassment wondering what this guy thought, because when the staff member asked for "anyone who has had a healing to come up to the stage and describe it" - there were some pretty odd testimonials. First off, it's a different climate from where many people live. So environmental factors present in their homes causing allergies, sinusitis, headaches - might not be present at RSE in the arena.
Also, one person with migraines claimed to "feel better" after having a headache until "R" appeared and called them on the field - but what happened to this person when they got home? If the headaches came back, well then, RSE teaches it's of the student's creation. Pfui.

Another woman went up to the stage (I posted this elsewhere). With the Harvard guy in attendance after his talk on black holes/time travel, this woman went up to the stage to report her "healing" - WHICH CONSISTED: "I was studying the sky last night and the spaceship aliens took me aboard and did surgery on my intestines and now I am healed." I mean, REALLY? Prove it, RSE. Show us the stats; we've already seen where the money goes.

So these "healings" are simply "standing" up or testimonials, and no outside objective authority or health professional (a health professional in the school will likely not have their critical thinking in place - but - spaceship aliens? Is this what we're talking about as healing? Get real. I mean, really get real and take back your life. If something is happening, it's only because the people themselves have done it ON THEIR OWN. How dare RSE claim credit for it.

Ramtha (TM) even claims credit for the visions at Fatima via his "spacebrothers" spaceship. Well my, my - maybe all that exists is "RamthaT, and we're all "figments" of his "imagination" with "imaginations of our own."

NOT.

gabe-
when one attends a school that employs thought reform techniques, suicide, mental dis orders and ill health are side effects.
THIS is proven.
we are talking about THOUGHT REFORM here.
Google it.
I know.
I was in for 18 years. I KNOW what that feels like.
Now I am out.
I know what THAT feels like.
Two totally different things.

And by "being out" of RSE does not mean missing a few events and still believeing.
it is actually, having a whole different mind set.

Well, there is certainly a lot to contemplate.
Thanks.

Hi Gabe,

Thanks for having the courage to post here and engage in a civil discussion.

I was wondering, If the people you mentioned who had been objectively tested and found to do what you stated, why they have not applied for James Randi's standing offer of 1 million dollars to anyone who could perform a feat such as you have mentioned (for all I know it could be up to 2 million or more by now) You can google his name and find out about his challange as far as I know to date no one has collected on it.

You may even want to ask them if you can submit them and collect 10% for yourself!!! Keep us up to date on your progress should you submit them, if they should happen to win the dough I will be regretful I did not submit them myself!!

Gabe,
Thanks for your graciousness with your posts. I'm with you on the truth being somewhere in the middle. I didn't leave the school for anything other than what I have posted elsewhere on this forum. I had remarkable experiences in the school with the disciplines. I still do have them and must give credit to the school for what I learned. So, again, thank you.

Big Smile.

The TEACHINGs in the beginning was a MASTER CREATES NOT BY ACTION UPON but by the PRESENCE of SELF...

He magnetically DRAWS what he wants effortless.

The Presence OF SELF... is indictive of BEING ... Not screaming yelling jumping up and down in some TENSE state.

The PRESENCE of self.. is a natural state of BEING.

That was the SELL JOB in the beginning.

You can also go and rob a bank and have REMARKABLE INSTANT GRATIFICATION.

Both cases.. outcome the same....

WALKING as the OLd Guy says.... as a TRUE MASTER.... and creting by the PRESENCE of self requires nothing but YOU.

Me too, in the beginning I THOUGHT i had remarkable results.. but wait... as I look deeply at my WHOLE LIFE BEFORE the R... I ALREADY HAD a very REMARKABLE LIFE.

It just allowed me to MAKE NOTICE of what was ALREADY happeing LONG BEFORE them.

I do NOT give them CREATE for that.

Just like a said many times before.

If you fail.. it is YOUR FALT.. and if you have a win.,. THEY get the credit... just as your post reads.

You have lost your soul in this thing dear one.
LOL.

and by the way... do you have JUDGEMENT against one creation or the other...

The END RESULTS is the same...

and it is ALL energy... re creating by you... so the story goes.

LOL
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You can also go and rob a bank and have REMARKABLE INSTANT GRATIFICATION.... Both cases.. outcome the same....

Liz,
ask watchamacalit for my email. I would like to keep this conversation going, just not on the postings.

I reread your post again Liz and get it a little more. I see what you were saying:)

"He never said that simply by coming to school, you get automatic immunity from death. "

In the earlier years, this was implied.
We would all ascend.
I even came up with a catchy "ascension day picnic" gig. I thought that would be a hoot!
We also thought the end was coming in less than two years.
Heck, my son was a toddler, and I collected and stored clothes for him right into men's size small.
He is now 20...and outgrown ALL those clothes, and these silly notions.

JZ is now marketing "a remarkeable life".
No where NEAR what was previously marketed.

Most people, I think, have a remarkeable life. (unless you are in Darfur.)
But these groups, and LGATs as well, that are now targeting corporations, target people who are in transition, or who have just suffered some sort of life catastrophe such as a divorce, leaving college, flood, shootings on a campus, etc.
They target vulnerable people.

I am not saying that JZ/R never taught anything worthwhile. What she teaches has been taught for eons. "Nothing new under the sun, Horatio." I had some very "wow" experiences there myself. But I do not attribute ANY of it to "Ramtha". I achieved those thingson my own efforts.

The end product for many, is what I have already mentioned.

As far as master of music, she has transformed into what JZ has directed.
JZ is terribly homophobic.
She has directed nearly all the staff who are gay to "reform", all under the guise of, you will be more enlightened because sex is not where it is at anyway. OF course, there was a "petite chat", her guzzling tequila, the rest of us wine, when she giving, what I thought, an infomercial for Victoria's Secret, complete with thongs and her talking about her orgasms. (Blech! hard to stomach that!!)

I just think, after having been out of RSE a short time, that I am now really living-a very full life. For 18 years, I did not, althought I THOUGHT I was.

I am extremely happy for having a very fulfilling life right now. I think there are others who can vouch for this as well, after they had been indoctrinated for so long.

jzr stated on a wineceremony that one serious toast with her gives you the 200years.you r right in that many things get aplied.but this was allways a red flag for me .jzr says mostly"nothing "very "meaningfull".

**jzr stated on a wineceremony that one serious toast with her gives you the 200years.
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Has any one there who toasted to 200 years DIED?

So many things were said that DID NOT HAPPEN...

When it does not happen the SCAM is, you changed the time line or focused on a different outcome.

There will NEVER be prof because with the addition of these types of statements... anything is ok or not ok.

Ultimately, all things can be explaned away and there fore no proof is required.

It is wierd how ouw human mind sort of fills in the blanks to justify ANY position you wish to take.