powerful post Greg.
It just goes to show that there are so many huge, intense stories out there.

AT the beginning of the wine ceremonies, EVERYONE HAD to drink.
No exceptions.
In the later years, a corner of the arena was sequestered off for non-drinkers (due to some people catching a plane the next day) but people were chastised time and time again for not taking the opportunity to "drink with a God". "R" would go to that particular section of the arena and totally berate those people, for hours!
Also teenagers who did not have their parents' approval to drink had their own area.
Those teenagers who DID have their parents'
approval, had to sit with the parents
(parents signed legal documents of release..but in hindsight , I find this aburd. What parent allows their teenager to consume a bottle of wine? Um....because my critical thinking was not intact, I thought this was just fine and my child would be more enlightened. I can tell you , now , that group of young people, all in college and in the Seattle area are heavy binge drinkers. My son has backed off a bit after a couple of MICs- minor in consumptions before age 21).

There is tremendous, unspoken pressure to drink, just as there is to attend all events or to "graduate" to Blue College, where there are no discounts for any body, including seniors. (Nice marketing tactic. Pay the full fare to be in the
more advancing group. IF you don't, you get hammered that you are in lack!)

Many current Ramsters drink very heavily (you should see my neighbor's weekly re-cycleables)...all in the name of enlightenment (and these people are not even "current").
Many have taken to drinking Tequila-just as JZ claims she does because she sais she cannot stand the taste of wine.

Also, on several occasions, "R" would preach there was absolutely no sense to AA. "His" method of curing someone was letting them drink to their hearts content, they'd be puking, and he would make them drink some more. More puking. But his way, he would make them drink even MORE, until they BEGGED to stop.
This little story was told more than once.

A whole community of alcoholics.....
all by cohersion.

>>Also, on several occasions, "R" would preach there was absolutely no sense to AA.<<

This explains my sister's occassional snide references to AA.

I remember after I had been sober for about 3 or 4 years getting an angry letter from my sister telling me how I owed my sobriety to her and that she didn't think I was "grateful" enough to her... What a crock.

Greg,

Thank you so much for your post!

In another thread I asked other posters if they felt an evil presence in JZ's home, because I did!

My experience is under "?evil presence in JZ's home" you can take a look-see for yourself.

I agree with you, I think there is a demon possesion occuring with Ms. Knight. I spent a very frightening night in her strange house praying to God for protection. I am glad to hear from someone else who thinks same. Obviously, who can really say for sure, but it is nice to know I am not alone in my feelings.

As for the wine ceremonies, one of my friends who is deeply involved in RSE may be developing a subtance abuse problem. I attended his wedding. The guests were almost all ramsters, everyone got completely loaded. He and his bride both passed out along with 1/2 of the guests. There was a lot of puking. It was absolutely insane.

Alcohol for most people, in large quantities, is poison for the body -- which is what brings on the puking, hangovers, etc... For other people, it's poison even in small quantities, ie, alcoholics...

It doesn't take a "god" to know this... Denial works on many levels.

It’s complete crap! But it sells books, workshops, and keeps people going to RSE.

Greg,
What a great post! This is the heart of why JZ does what she does.

I think that we should "sticky" this thread. Excellent post...will help many folks.

Good idea Watcha..,

Greg's thread deserves the “sticky of the month award”..

chuckle,

David.

Thanks, Greg.

Marie: "Joe Sz -- do you have any insight you can provide on a possible explanation for the shift in change from the "good, kind and loving Ramtha" to the abusive one?? Knowing that JZ is a malignant narcissist, is that a common progresson / characteristic of the personality?.. I guess I attribute most of it to just the progression of her own alcoholism .. "

In my experience hearing the stories of thousands of ex-cult members from hundreds of groups a common theme is to say: "It was different and more friendly in the beginning, then something changed." Sometimes this is a result of feeling good, like being on a honeymoon, in the first years of cult life, then like in any marriage, the hard underlying themes being to emerge and take precedence and that changes PERCEPTION.

Those underlying themes were/are always present in cult leaders, but the group and the leader will instinctively mask them out for new members until they are sufficiently warmed up in the pot.

Recall that Axis II or personality disorders are etched into personality about age 25 (or the time the adult brain stops its growth formation). JZ/R was a brat in the early days [1982-84] too. Some movie stars [Shirley Mac] complained during an early workshop with R that the bigguy commanded them to strip all jewelry to learn "detachment"--I heard they never got their jewelry back! I can't say for sure who got it......JZ/R used to get drunk regularly back then too..

My point is that the theme of manipulation in JZ/R was always there--it just got more intense and elaborate as her transformation circus developed more acts.

Another way to look at it is that malignant cult leaders learn as they go and they learn just how much they can push the crowd. The crowd will let them know how far they can go: "This is the best thing that ever happened to me. I will do anything for you!"

Power is highly addictive for people with Axis II disorders. A few leaders have pushed the devotees to slip from this life en masse--that is raw power's endgame.

joe

"Another way to look at it is that malignant cult leaders learn as they go and they learn just how much they can push the crowd"

wow. This explains ALOT.
The scary thing is people like Jim Jones,David Koresh, Osama bin Laden, Charles Manson, Marshall Applewhite (of Heaven's Gate)......I think it just spirals, and this is where I have compassion and concern for people in RSE.

Greg,
I so relate to your story. I had six years of sobriety and chucked it out the window at 90 miles an hour on my way to being "Ascended"(which can also be spelled as Ass-ended)
I left the school because of Omega, Wine, and X. It took me a year to get sober, once I left. I have never looked back and have 8 years sober now. My spiritual Path is no less remarkable in its recovery from school too. So thanks Man!

What is X ?

Cowboy,
its Ecstacy. It was everywhere. X.

" It took me a year to get sober, once I left. I have never looked back and have 8 years sober now"

wow. Thank you for this. very encouraging, at least for me.

Terra, I also detect a malevolent presence connected with RSE and JZ Knight.

There is an expression that the eyes are the windows to the soul. When I looked at the eyes of the Ramtha at a beginners event I attended in 2005 they were not the sort of eyes you would want to meet alone in a dark alley at night. The whole demeanour of this Ramtha was a very nasty presence with some very debased sort of commentary.

The Ramtha at an Assay I attended in that same year was not like this.
-----------------------------------------------------


This is a copy of a post from FACTNET by Mathew Morrell, thread titled, "The Four Faces of J.Z. Knight: Demias, Charles, Jesus and Ramtha."

During her childhood, JZ was with her friends at a slumber party when, according to eye witnesses, she fell to the ground seemingly possessed by a spirit that called himself “Demias.” The eyewitness reported this incident on a 1987 episode of 20/20. The eyewitness also claimed to remember the words that Demias said during the possession. “I have possessed this body for a long time,” Demias reportedly said. Apparently, JZ has forgotten the event or refuses to discuss it. Certainly the event, if it were true, would discredit the notion her believers might have: that Ramtha has always been the sole occupant of JZ’s body.

According to Jeff Knight (JZs ex-husband), JZ channeled more than just Ramtha. After contracting AIDs, and quitting RSE, he confessed that JZ also channeled a spirit called “Charles,” but that this spirit was used only in private sessions for the purpose of advising them on horse buying and selling. “Charles” was an equestrian from the nineteenth century.

Oddly enough, Gordon Melton does not mention either Demias or Charles in his 1998 book on RSE. Neither does he mention that JZ channeled Jesus around 1985. Recordings of this channeling session are strange and baffling. JZ is heard screaming angrily as she channeled Jesus.



Source for this post:

1. 20/20: the 1987 episode.

2. Joe Szimhart, July, 1998. “Book Review/essay,” Ramthamelt. Site accessed July, 21, 2006. http://home.dejazzd.com/jszimhart/ramtha.htm
------------------------------------------------------

Tree, with regards to AA and RSE I know someone who was never a drinker and due to RSE involvement became a heavy drinker.

One evening she was drunk at a gathering with other "masters." She got fed up with some of them and left in an extremely drunken state doing 70 mph.

She got picked up for her second DUI which has incredibly harsh penalties in the USA.....much less sever in Australia.

Attending AA meeting for Two years.

Paying to attend conselling for three months at one's own expense. If she did not attend and pay she would have had to go to prison or I think do community service work.

Fines....I think the lot cost her about $8,000 with the class costs and she as a "master" was in debt.

Losing the license for one year forced her to return to New Zealand AND she had to continue to go to AA classes in any other country she went to.

She intended one day to go back to Yelm so she had to comply in her viewpoint. She later moved to Australia with her family. ( Her children as this lady was around 60 years old.)

She was at a loss as to how she "created it."

Christel-
wow. Just wow.
I can relate.
I had not been a drinker before going to RSE. I as an athlete.
Having been in RSE and introduced to the wine ceremonies, I hooked up with someone who was, at the time, 12 years sober. ( I had no clue what alcoholism was at the time).
Enter, wine ceremonies.
My friend fell off the wagon, and as a partner of an alcoholic, I drank with her, in order to control her (this was the therapists assertion, and I would have to agree as I was the co-dependant).
Well, this her obsession and time spent in regards to drinking led her to drinking with someone else and then eventually sleeping with that person.
I gave her three chances.
On the third failed chance they came over to my house and I blew a gasket.
A fight ensued with all three, eventually those two pummeling me to the ground, sitting on me, beating the crap out of me until the sheriff came.
The Sheriff's office took the view of 2 vs 1 and I was hauled away. (Why all three were not hauled off to the pokey is beyond me. But I have since found out in this country, you are guilty and have to PROVE your innocense.)
So, firghtened to near death in this women's section, I had the thought:"I want to 'manifest' another student in here so I can just make it through til Monday."
Lo and behold, in comes another master.
Drunker than a skunk, hauled in for a DUI.

That little episode cost me about $6000 in legal fees, fines, therapist visits, not to mention a plea bargain so I could keep my house and not lose my son.

I honestly believe, had I not been indoctrinated with the wine ceremonies, I would not have a felony on my record.

Try getting a job with that little asterisk by your name.
The Ranch hired me

so go ahead, Red Guards....
try for the character assasination.
There are no secrets.

wondering why the re-post without a comment.....

Tree,

"wondering why the re-post without a comment"

A post was removed and dropped into the "RSE waste basket".
This had the effect of bumping the thread forward.

The Moderators.

Anyone ever know whatever happened to Sulli?
(Sulli-mander) and his brother?

Once heard he worked after he left in carpeting in Yland?

moderators: thank you

Sulli still lives in Y town, as does his brother and sister.
Sulli does, indeed, install carpeting.