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Why I left.
Following is the email I posted publicly on the internet 9 years ago using my real name! I think it was alt.channeling or something similar. Mostly I wanted to warn anyone doing a search for Ramtha what they were in for:
From: Greg Barber
Date: Tues, Feb 24 1998 12:00 am
Ramtha and Ramtha's School of Enlightenment - their biggest secret
The "wine ceremony".
Anyone interested in pursuing Ramtha's teaching should be aware you will
be asked to participate in a "wine ceremony", before you move to the
advanced group. This ceremony involves downing a bottle of wine and
"dropping your veils" presumably for some kind of emotional cleansing.
Ramtha will drink from 3 to 4 bottles himself during a ceremony. Poor
JZ!! Is she channeling or is she possessed? A lot of people puke their
guts out. Lots of hangovers down at the Ranch these days. Do not go to
this school if you have a problem with substance abuse. Ramtha will
tell you to drink wine, because it opens up your brain. This is
This debauchery is bizarre in the extreme, and places all of Ramtha's
teaching in question. The fact that these wine ceremonies are _very_
frequent and secret(sacred?), is the absolute truth.
So now you know!
I attended this school for 3 years and left for the above reason. If
anyone else has left this school for a similar reason I would be
interested in your story.
Every once in awhile I go looking in the news groups to see if a warning post I made some 8 or 9 years ago is still floating around the net. As the time from the original post got longer and longer it was increasingly difficult to find. I was astonished to find it on this forum EMF. At the time I posted it I received virtually no response or support for what I saw, and was pretty much a lone voice crying in the wilderness. Leaving the school was very, very difficult, as my wife and I had invested ourselves, along with a number or our close friends here in Vancouver, BC, very heavily into Ramtha’s school.
My wife and I attended a beginners retreat with our young daughter around summer of ’96. We both went on to become “current” advanced students attending 10 day intensives separately and many other retreats. I don’t recall them all specifically but we went through the alchemy, David Hudson phase, the earth changes that were just around the corner, “the Milk of the Gods” seawater elixir. (LOL) We spent a lot of money going to retreats, ordering tapes and books, those fabulous Capes, on and on. Our whole house and lives were full of Ramtha and the teachings. And so were our friends.
We really figured we were special people. We had all this secret knowledge and teachings. We were in touch with a God who was giving us the answers to everything. We were just around the corner from manifesting fabulous wealth. We had it all together. Two years supply of food and all cocooned for the coming end of the world. Earth Changes.
Did lots of “field work”. Manifested 3 cards. Pretty awesome. Only problem was the focus’ didn’t manifest. Well in truth they all eventually did, some 6 to 8 years later, but not in the way I had intended, and not fast enough to prove any potency to the focusing technique as it was taught. That was the first problem. We weren’t getting any real results, though we were very heavy into our disciplines. C & E every day, sometimes twice. Intense focus on manifestation. Dropping the focus’ into the void, the letters, the intention. I was getting disillusioned. It just wasn’t working. My body wasn’t healing. And it wasn’t working for our friends either. Now I certainly know why, because I haven’t stopped my spiritual evolution, so I am certainly thankful for the experience with Ramtha and RSE.
That stuff was very, very low level. Based on greed, tremendous insecurity, and paranoia. When the book “The Secret” came out I was immediately able to dismiss it for the empty teaching it is. I’ve seen it discussed here on EMF. It pushes the same buttons. It’s secret knowledge, it’s a conspiracy, and it pushes the same childish “you can have anything you want” by your focused intention buttons. It’s complete crap! But it sells books, workshops, and keeps people going to RSE.
I have to say that up to the end I loved going to the Ranch. I loved the discourses. I don’t think it would be possible for JZ to “act” Ramtha. So I believe there is a discarnate entity, Ramtha, that came through JZ. I attended 3 day workshops that were completely brilliant in their presentation and focus. It was like someone was reading a script. I don’t believe it would be possible for someone to memorize or act it. And the content was incredible. Whether true or not the creation story, “make known the unknown”, coming down through the planes, it was jaw dropping stuff to me at the time. The Grey Men the earth changes. It was completely fascinating. The music and dance. It was great. The Adventure!
About that time there was talk that Ramtha was going to leave. I can’t recall if he said it himself but I think it’s possible that he did, and JZ was possessed by another demon entity. Because the loving Ram I knew changed. He became (or always was) a deceiving demon. And JZ was certainly possessed.
Let me digress here and say I had a terrible problem in my younger years with substance abuse. The road to my recovery was very long and painful. I went through two Treatment Centers and 3 solid years of daily AA meetings to begin my recovery. I met my wife in treatment and we kept each other on the straight and narrow. Now one thing I know from the depths of my being is substance abuse. What it did to me, and those around me. I was the “Master” when it came to substance abuse. I got it. I can’t drink. Ever. That’s it. Not even the great Ramtha could get me on that one!
So when I began hearing stories of “wine ceremonies” I began to get very uneasy. My friends were coming home with graphic stories about them, though I never actually attended one. I was in the third day of my second 10 day retreat when we were told to get ready for a wine ceremony. It came very unexpectedly and quickly. I have to say to my own credit that I didn’t have to think very hard about not participating. I was told if I didn’t want to participate I had to leave the property. I left and kept on going. I still haven’t completely resolved the bizarre dichotomy of this, compared to the beauty of some of the other experiences I had there. But I knew for sure I couldn’t trust that school, Ramtha, or any of the teachings after that. I also had to be sure my wife’s sobriety wasn’t placed in jeopardy either.
I think at that time we each had about 5 or 6 years of sobriety. I returned home and remember the difficulty I had convincing my wife we had to leave the school. It was over. It was very hard. Now we had to go through our house gathering up everything related to Ramtha and the school. It was a lot of Stuff!! We ended up with 3 or 4 large green garbage bags full of stuff. Tapes, posters, books, notes, capes, clothes, etc. You can imagine. We loaded it all in the Van, stopped at the hardware store and bought a shovel.The we drove out to a field near the airport, very secluded, dug a hole and buried it deep. Like a dead body. I swear an area opened in the clouds above us, and my wife said she could see saints and angels smiling down on us. True story.
Our friends were absolutely shocked. One of our friends, also a recovering alcoholic, had a number of years of sobriety and didn’t consider getting drunk at the wine ceremony the loss of his sobriety. It was incredible. Two of our closest friends, a married couple, were in real trouble with their relationship. He just wasn’t into the school although he had been to a number of events, but his wife wanted to move to Yelm. She eventually did and their marriage ended. They had two teenage children. It was very sad. He just said “they got her” and I can’t get her back. They were landed immigrants. He eventually returned to his home country with the kids and she is probably still in Yelm.
One thing I knew for sure. JZ was not going to escape the effects of all that substance abuse. I hadn’t seen her for quite a few years. She was a beautiful woman when I went to the school. When I saw her in “What the Bleep”, I just couldn’t believe how bad she looked. She had aged about 30 years in five. No immortality there.
In spite of a lot of comments I read here on EMF I believe JZ is a victim of a possession. In spite of all the money and wealth her life is a living hell. I’m sure of it. She must know she is doomed. In a complete prison. It is truly an unforgivable and sick thing to see the way Ramtha has abused her body. How can students at the school see this abuse and allow it to continue. It is absolutely and completely bizarre. We live in a truly insane world.
About five years ago I began a simple Yoga practice at a local studio. I have found this discipline to be all I need to transform deeply and powerfully over time. It has given me everything I ever dreamed for mentally, physically, and spiritually. No huge belief system, just the simple act of coming into the present moment, breathing and moving. For me this has created, and is creating a deep and fundamental transformation. I am happy, very healthy and I feel whole. I am grateful for my experience at the ranch, so I never have to waste my time on a path like that again.
I am also grateful that a forum like this exists to help people sort out and recover from the experiences at RSE. It’s a tough one to figure out. It is so complex, distorted and full of paradox that we may never really figure it all out. Just be grateful you are able to walk away, free and clear, being able to see it for the empty teaching it is. Be grateful for the experience.
And by the way. When you die. HEAD FOR THE LIGHT!!! I’ll meet you there!
Thank you so much for your very personal and heart-tugging story. I'd not heard of the school back in 1998, and wouldn't have gone there at that time even if I had. But I did go, and my reasons for leaving are posted elsewhere here.
One thing I was very interested in as a med pro was "near death experiences." I knew two cool-headed doctors who experienced them and I was fascinated by what they told me. They both described the tunnel, the brilliant light and peaceful feeling of NOT wanting to come back. So why would anyone want to go into the dark!
I don't know what's going on with JR. Maybe a trip to the Lourde's bath would help her, for in the "Ramtha UFO" book, it states it was the Ramtha (TM) and his "space bros" in the form of "Mary" who appeared at these places of miracles such as Fatima, etc., because the people would accept these visions.
My heart leaps that you and yours are happy.
Thank you Greg.
Stories like yours are the ones that convinced me to leave.
Thank you Greg - ditto to G2G.
One little thing, though. You said:"It was like someone was reading a script." ... She was. It's common knowledge that Judy has a photographic memory. There are too many incidents of Ramtha's discourses/concepts coming from already written material. You'll find references to these throughout the message board.
Bless you for choosing sobriety. Would you start a post on that - call it something like "Wine Ceremony" so the reading Ramsters will look - In Yelm, at least, one sees the effects of the lost sobriety, of those who were never drinkers before wine ceremonies and haven't stopped drinking since --- You chose, it seems to me, between the God that spoke within you, and the god prancing in front of you/outside of you. I certainly don't want to impose a concept on you -- it's just that your story reminded me of mine -- although it wasn't about alcohol, it was a choice.
I'm grateful for your post.
Greg -- I want to thank you too for posting -- I related to many aspects of your story... I am also an alcoholic in recovery -- been sober 19 years ... It runs in my family... My mother, is also an alcoholic, but as far as I know at this point, has not had a drink in about 27 years but she is very involved at the ranch and from what you have described to me and what others have posted about the wine ceremonies, scares me to death... I can totally see her doing what your friend did, not considering drinking at wine ceremonies to be a slip in her disease.... She may even be able to confine it to just episodes at the ranch for awhile, hard to say... but what I do know about alcholism, is that it is a chronic, progressive disease and there is no cure, and eventually one will reach the point again where they can no longer drink safely and it will start to become apparent at times she is not at the ranch... I also know enough about it to know that even with alcoholism, as with her beliefs in Ramtha, she must find her own way, or recovery... Slipping with or without Ramtha, is still a slip.... just different rationalizations... But it is HARD for me to watch this... She's talking about moving to Yelm and sometimes I wonder if in the back of her brain it seems like a good idea because then she could drink freely there... I have asked her point blank what she does at the wine ceremonies when others are participating, because "I know there is a lot of pressure to participate".. and she tells me that she "just doesn't drink".. and that "she's not the only one, that there are others who don't as well"... Or she says she just drinks something else, not wine.. I guess from what I've read here, I find that scenario unlikely.... sigh... But among hundreds of people, would anyone really know that she wasn't?? But then there's that pesky peer pressure.....
Also -- I'm not sure I can attribute JZ's behavior to being now possessed by something evil... I think that would be too convenient for her and let her too easily off the hook...
Joe Sz -- do you have any insight you can provide on a possible explanation for the shift in change from the "good, kind and loving Ramtha" to the abusive one?? Knowing that JZ is a malignant narcissist, is that a common progresson / characteristic of the personality?.. I guess I attribute most of it to just the progression of her own alcoholism ..
I had a converstion on this topic with someone else recently -- it has not escaped me the similarities between the dysfunction with JZR and the ranch, and alcoholic families.. Not at ALL surprising that JZ comes from an alcoholic background and I'm sure that is part of the "hook" or appeal for some students having similar backgrounds.... She pushes all those familiar alcoholic, dysfunctional family buttons....
Many of her philosophies seem to be sort of the opposite of AA and recovery -- AA suggests you believe in a power higher than yourself... JZ teaches YOU are that power -- YOU ARE the center of the universe -- AA's philosphies are one of acceptance, acceptance of life on life's terms is the key to recovery -- I cannot change others and am powerless over people, places and things, my task is to work on myself and my own reactions to those things -- JZ teaches you to forget that!! YOU are the MASTER and YOU can CREATE YOUR OWN DAY, situations and things!!....While I am not an expert on "everything JZ"... I do know that follwing AA's philosophies and gentle suggestions for a healthy, happy life, have given me just that... So hearing JZ spout the opposite implies that it would have the inverse effect on my life.
powerful post Greg.
It just goes to show that there are so many huge, intense stories out there.
AT the beginning of the wine ceremonies, EVERYONE HAD to drink.
In the later years, a corner of the arena was sequestered off for non-drinkers (due to some people catching a plane the next day) but people were chastised time and time again for not taking the opportunity to "drink with a God". "R" would go to that particular section of the arena and totally berate those people, for hours!
Also teenagers who did not have their parents' approval to drink had their own area.
Those teenagers who DID have their parents'
approval, had to sit with the parents
(parents signed legal documents of release..but in hindsight , I find this aburd. What parent allows their teenager to consume a bottle of wine? Um....because my critical thinking was not intact, I thought this was just fine and my child would be more enlightened. I can tell you , now , that group of young people, all in college and in the Seattle area are heavy binge drinkers. My son has backed off a bit after a couple of MICs- minor in consumptions before age 21).
There is tremendous, unspoken pressure to drink, just as there is to attend all events or to "graduate" to Blue College, where there are no discounts for any body, including seniors. (Nice marketing tactic. Pay the full fare to be in the
more advancing group. IF you don't, you get hammered that you are in lack!)
Many current Ramsters drink very heavily (you should see my neighbor's weekly re-cycleables)...all in the name of enlightenment (and these people are not even "current").
Many have taken to drinking Tequila-just as JZ claims she does because she sais she cannot stand the taste of wine.
Also, on several occasions, "R" would preach there was absolutely no sense to AA. "His" method of curing someone was letting them drink to their hearts content, they'd be puking, and he would make them drink some more. More puking. But his way, he would make them drink even MORE, until they BEGGED to stop.
This little story was told more than once.
A whole community of alcoholics.....
all by cohersion.
>>Also, on several occasions, "R" would preach there was absolutely no sense to AA.<<
This explains my sister's occassional snide references to AA.
I remember after I had been sober for about 3 or 4 years getting an angry letter from my sister telling me how I owed my sobriety to her and that she didn't think I was "grateful" enough to her... What a crock.
Thank you so much for your post!
In another thread I asked other posters if they felt an evil presence in JZ's home, because I did!
My experience is under "?evil presence in JZ's home" you can take a look-see for yourself.
I agree with you, I think there is a demon possesion occuring with Ms. Knight. I spent a very frightening night in her strange house praying to God for protection. I am glad to hear from someone else who thinks same. Obviously, who can really say for sure, but it is nice to know I am not alone in my feelings.
As for the wine ceremonies, one of my friends who is deeply involved in RSE may be developing a subtance abuse problem. I attended his wedding. The guests were almost all ramsters, everyone got completely loaded. He and his bride both passed out along with 1/2 of the guests. There was a lot of puking. It was absolutely insane.
Alcohol for most people, in large quantities, is poison for the body -- which is what brings on the puking, hangovers, etc... For other people, it's poison even in small quantities, ie, alcoholics...
It doesn't take a "god" to know this... Denial works on many levels.
It’s complete crap! But it sells books, workshops, and keeps people going to RSE.
What a great post! This is the heart of why JZ does what she does.
I think that we should "sticky" this thread. Excellent post...will help many folks.
Good idea Watcha..,
Greg's thread deserves the “sticky of the month award”..
Marie: "Joe Sz -- do you have any insight you can provide on a possible explanation for the shift in change from the "good, kind and loving Ramtha" to the abusive one?? Knowing that JZ is a malignant narcissist, is that a common progresson / characteristic of the personality?.. I guess I attribute most of it to just the progression of her own alcoholism .. "
In my experience hearing the stories of thousands of ex-cult members from hundreds of groups a common theme is to say: "It was different and more friendly in the beginning, then something changed." Sometimes this is a result of feeling good, like being on a honeymoon, in the first years of cult life, then like in any marriage, the hard underlying themes being to emerge and take precedence and that changes PERCEPTION.
Those underlying themes were/are always present in cult leaders, but the group and the leader will instinctively mask them out for new members until they are sufficiently warmed up in the pot.
Recall that Axis II or personality disorders are etched into personality about age 25 (or the time the adult brain stops its growth formation). JZ/R was a brat in the early days [1982-84] too. Some movie stars [Shirley Mac] complained during an early workshop with R that the bigguy commanded them to strip all jewelry to learn "detachment"--I heard they never got their jewelry back! I can't say for sure who got it......JZ/R used to get drunk regularly back then too..
My point is that the theme of manipulation in JZ/R was always there--it just got more intense and elaborate as her transformation circus developed more acts.
Another way to look at it is that malignant cult leaders learn as they go and they learn just how much they can push the crowd. The crowd will let them know how far they can go: "This is the best thing that ever happened to me. I will do anything for you!"
Power is highly addictive for people with Axis II disorders. A few leaders have pushed the devotees to slip from this life en masse--that is raw power's endgame.
"Another way to look at it is that malignant cult leaders learn as they go and they learn just how much they can push the crowd"
wow. This explains ALOT.
The scary thing is people like Jim Jones,David Koresh, Osama bin Laden, Charles Manson, Marshall Applewhite (of Heaven's Gate)......I think it just spirals, and this is where I have compassion and concern for people in RSE.
I so relate to your story. I had six years of sobriety and chucked it out the window at 90 miles an hour on my way to being "Ascended"(which can also be spelled as Ass-ended)
I left the school because of Omega, Wine, and X. It took me a year to get sober, once I left. I have never looked back and have 8 years sober now. My spiritual Path is no less remarkable in its recovery from school too. So thanks Man!
What is X ?
its Ecstacy. It was everywhere. X.
" It took me a year to get sober, once I left. I have never looked back and have 8 years sober now"
wow. Thank you for this. very encouraging, at least for me.
Terra, I also detect a malevolent presence connected with RSE and JZ Knight.
There is an expression that the eyes are the windows to the soul. When I looked at the eyes of the Ramtha at a beginners event I attended in 2005 they were not the sort of eyes you would want to meet alone in a dark alley at night. The whole demeanour of this Ramtha was a very nasty presence with some very debased sort of commentary.
The Ramtha at an Assay I attended in that same year was not like this.
This is a copy of a post from FACTNET by Mathew Morrell, thread titled, "The Four Faces of J.Z. Knight: Demias, Charles, Jesus and Ramtha."
During her childhood, JZ was with her friends at a slumber party when, according to eye witnesses, she fell to the ground seemingly possessed by a spirit that called himself “Demias.” The eyewitness reported this incident on a 1987 episode of 20/20. The eyewitness also claimed to remember the words that Demias said during the possession. “I have possessed this body for a long time,” Demias reportedly said. Apparently, JZ has forgotten the event or refuses to discuss it. Certainly the event, if it were true, would discredit the notion her believers might have: that Ramtha has always been the sole occupant of JZ’s body.
According to Jeff Knight (JZs ex-husband), JZ channeled more than just Ramtha. After contracting AIDs, and quitting RSE, he confessed that JZ also channeled a spirit called “Charles,” but that this spirit was used only in private sessions for the purpose of advising them on horse buying and selling. “Charles” was an equestrian from the nineteenth century.
Oddly enough, Gordon Melton does not mention either Demias or Charles in his 1998 book on RSE. Neither does he mention that JZ channeled Jesus around 1985. Recordings of this channeling session are strange and baffling. JZ is heard screaming angrily as she channeled Jesus.
Source for this post:
1. 20/20: the 1987 episode.
2. Joe Szimhart, July, 1998. “Book Review/essay,” Ramthamelt. Site accessed July, 21, 2006. http://home.dejazzd.com/jszimhart/ramtha.htm
Tree, with regards to AA and RSE I know someone who was never a drinker and due to RSE involvement became a heavy drinker.
One evening she was drunk at a gathering with other "masters." She got fed up with some of them and left in an extremely drunken state doing 70 mph.
She got picked up for her second DUI which has incredibly harsh penalties in the USA.....much less sever in Australia.
Attending AA meeting for Two years.
Paying to attend conselling for three months at one's own expense. If she did not attend and pay she would have had to go to prison or I think do community service work.
Fines....I think the lot cost her about $8,000 with the class costs and she as a "master" was in debt.
Losing the license for one year forced her to return to New Zealand AND she had to continue to go to AA classes in any other country she went to.
She intended one day to go back to Yelm so she had to comply in her viewpoint. She later moved to Australia with her family. ( Her children as this lady was around 60 years old.)
She was at a loss as to how she "created it."
wow. Just wow.
I can relate.
I had not been a drinker before going to RSE. I as an athlete.
Having been in RSE and introduced to the wine ceremonies, I hooked up with someone who was, at the time, 12 years sober. ( I had no clue what alcoholism was at the time).
Enter, wine ceremonies.
My friend fell off the wagon, and as a partner of an alcoholic, I drank with her, in order to control her (this was the therapists assertion, and I would have to agree as I was the co-dependant).
Well, this her obsession and time spent in regards to drinking led her to drinking with someone else and then eventually sleeping with that person.
I gave her three chances.
On the third failed chance they came over to my house and I blew a gasket.
A fight ensued with all three, eventually those two pummeling me to the ground, sitting on me, beating the crap out of me until the sheriff came.
The Sheriff's office took the view of 2 vs 1 and I was hauled away. (Why all three were not hauled off to the pokey is beyond me. But I have since found out in this country, you are guilty and have to PROVE your innocense.)
So, firghtened to near death in this women's section, I had the thought:"I want to 'manifest' another student in here so I can just make it through til Monday."
Lo and behold, in comes another master.
Drunker than a skunk, hauled in for a DUI.
That little episode cost me about $6000 in legal fees, fines, therapist visits, not to mention a plea bargain so I could keep my house and not lose my son.
I honestly believe, had I not been indoctrinated with the wine ceremonies, I would not have a felony on my record.
Try getting a job with that little asterisk by your name.
The Ranch hired me
so go ahead, Red Guards....
try for the character assasination.
There are no secrets.
wondering why the re-post without a comment.....
"wondering why the re-post without a comment"
A post was removed and dropped into the "RSE waste basket".
This had the effect of bumping the thread forward.
Anyone ever know whatever happened to Sulli?
(Sulli-mander) and his brother?
Once heard he worked after he left in carpeting in Yland?
moderators: thank you
Sulli still lives in Y town, as does his brother and sister.
Sulli does, indeed, install carpeting.