Onehand, in response to your statements:

"Also, during the first DTC teachings, much of the emphasis was on preparing for natural disasters using “common-sense reasoning” and not out of fear. J/R used to say to prepare for possible earth changes like ants prepare for winter…I was in the teachings then (I got out around 1990) and used to hold the image of squirrels storing nuts and seeds. Back then J/R’s words made sense, in terms of being aware of where one was living—for example, on an earthquake fault. There was also talk about gray men and the possibility of the economy collapsing, but that also seemed like a prudent thing to keep in mind, because the Great Depression really happened, and it could happen again. "

This is still what JZ/R teaches -- when I have converations with my mother about the "days to come" she brings up "the ant and the grasshopper"... which, btw, is not original to JZ/R ... wasn't there a Disney cartoon based on this old story??... And she makes my remarks that end of the world prophecies are as old as the earth among cults seem insignificant by correcting me and saying "oh she doesn't claim it will be the end of the WORLD, just that there will be major changes that will change life as we know it now"... semantics, I guess... bottomline is still the same thing ...fear induced "I have the answer and you don't so you must continue to follow me and my teachings and pay me for the privilege of giving you this knowledge!"....

and also

"What I am saying is that in the late 1980s, as I recall, it was easy for me to agree with the DTC teachings because R/J wasn’t really predicting anything out of the ordinary realm of possibility."

We all face the possibilty of being killed in traffic accidents, being murdered while jogging, having our houses broken into, etc etc.. As a matter of fact, TIME magazine or some other news weekly did an article on how the media etc induces fear of natural disasters among society, but that the chance of you falling down the stairs and dying or somthing similer is much greater than any natural disaster you will face....Our perceptions about disaster and what we need to protect ourselves from is skewed....IMO, the difference between what JZ preaches/teaches and just being prepared and aware of disaster or calamity is the amount of time and how much of your life it consumes... I also think that when you were there, it was probably "easy" for one to agree with the teachings because one is still being brainwashed by JZ... My mother and sister today whole heartedly believe in what she is saying as do other people who are preparing to move to Yelm because it's the "only safe place"...

Look what I found on the site. Check it out.

http://www.baproducts.com/552000.htm


5/5/2000
ICE: The Ultimate Disaster
By Richard W Noone
On May 5 in the year 2000, the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn will be aligned with the Earth and her Moon. On that day the ice at the South Pole will upset the Earth's axis--sending trillions of tons of ice and water sweeping over the surface of our planet. Not since the days of Noah has Humankind been faced with this ultimate catastrophe.

Doesn´t is sound familiar?

that's the book i was referring to...i saw it at the Survival Center.

what is Ramtha's connection to that book? Did s/he advocate it? Did s/he say the same things as that book? If so, is there a place online or in a book that someone could point me to, proving that R's predictions are more or less full of ****?

zywxv - your 'evidence' approach to prove to your girlfriend and friends that R prophecies didn't happen is not going to produce the results you want. It's like ramster minds are immune to logic. Your research is commendable, as it shows YOUR capacity for critical thinking, analysis - a really good thing.

The issue here is the 'Leap of Faith' that your girlfriend is taking, with clear influence from the ramster friends encouraging her beliefs. Know that some people are just more sensitive to fear of survival, often related to abusive times growing up. (Lots of EMF posts talk about it.)

So, even if you came up with STELLAR EVIDENCE, your entrenched friends would reject it and she might side with majority... its not reasonable, but WTF?

What might work is the following argument:

1. Yelm countryside/S. Thurston county is now well stocked with food, generators, batteries, emergency supplies in 3000 homes. Perhaps 300 (10%) have underground concrete 'bomb shelters' too. This is WIDELY known in the community.

2. The other people dwelling in S. Thurston Co. are military people. They have guns & use them frequently - at Ft. Lewis in practice, hunting, etc.

3. So, if calamity ever happens, the people with the guns KNOW where the food is, and will clearly take control of anything they need to save their families.

Any Questions?

Oh yeah, and don't forget to mention that when you live in Yelm, you get to hear bombs, artillery going off EVERY DAY... Big bombers fly low overhead, helicopters buzz around like flies..

And then there are those returning Iraqi War veterans coming back some day soon (we hope). They will want to live in the country, as noises set them off a bit. Post-traumatic stress syndrome can also have nightmares, craziness, psychotic episodes. So, MORE guns, unstable military in 'affordable' Bald Hills...

Safe? yea, if you are a ranking military person with a loaded gun on your holster all the time.

I think your girlfriend could 'wake up' to this reality. This one is based on critical analysis of the situation. Pretty stark, too. Hey - go for a rustic vacation in a cabin somewhere for a weekend. Hang out in front of a warm fireplace with hot chocolate, after a dinner of canned beans or spagettiOs, lovingly ask the question: how DO we want to live 2 years from now? (p.s. - do not invite the friends!) win her back now - it will be harder or not possible later..

Love is all you need. Just raise the red flags & do 'what if' stories till you are both laughing hysterically!

zyw-
a place or person you might want to ask
is Mike (so) Wright at the Ranch.

I know what THEY try to document all of the prophecies that HAVE come true.
But I do not think anyone has done any intense study of
1) how many and what predictions did Ramtha actually make?
2) how many came true?
3) how many did NOT come true.

I know, in RSE newsletters in particular, RSE and the marketing dept like to "back up one of (a zillion) of Ramtha's predictions" with current um, media articles to support the "prediction".

And JZR's back up line, this is laughable, but true ( and they ALL believe it) is:
"The greatest predictions are the ones that did not come to pass."

Out here, NOW, that statement looks totally ridiculous.
While in, we thought it was awesome because either we (most likely not) or
"HE" (because he is a god realized !!) changed a time line.

What better back up for things not coming true from an "all knowing" source.
yeah, right.

Anyway, at one point ( very early on in one of my first jobs over ten years ago, I was hired on under 'contractor' status then) was to listen to every audio tape, and make general blurbs about each tape-what "lesson", what prediction, etc.
Master of Music started doing this solidly when CD's were being published.
But this was just as CD's were being released, and they wanted info of all the past master tape collection.
My position was terminated after 6 months
( as well as the rest of the permanent staff was laid off for 2 months, as is the case with RSE.).

So, to answer your question in totality, would be very difficult.
I do know older people who have the entire cassette tape collection of earlier dialogues, and those people are retired. I know they listen to tapes nearly every day, but I do not know of anyone cataloguing the entire collection.

also, one of the best "I told you so" stories came out just after 9 1 1.
The comrades were up at the house drinking with JZR, and the head of the then video dept asked to film it.
R gave the go ahead, but then after some time, GReg Simmons told the head of video
to stop filming.
So, the group comes down to the arena,
just tanked to the gills...we continue on with the evening.

Two weeks later, 9 1 1 occurs.
One of the comrades comes up with the idea: " I SWEAR I heard him talk about a
plane coming down in PA that night two week ago!! "
Of course, it was never filmed.And no one could remember because they were all
totally *&^& faced.

It tossed another red flag up for me then, as it seemed nothing could be proven, or dis-proved.
And then it could all be tossed aside with:
the greatest predictions are the ones that did
not come true.

See what a convoluded web?

yeah, i understand what you mean about the lack of critical thinking skills. Today she came home and asked me why I seemed upset, so I told her that I was reading Last Waltz and that none of it added up, and that I'm worried she's going to make serious life decisions based on a false prophet. I gave her examples of prophesies in that book that didn't come true, and she seemed interested, and she didn't just reject what i said or get defensive.

But her conclusion was "All the predictions aren't going to come true. If we do what's necessary, the predictions won't come true. And Ramtha never said he was perfect, that everything he said was right"

I responded with "But he does actually. He claims to have gotten full knowledge after achieving enlightenment."

And she said "Oh. Hm. I don't want to talk about this."

"I don't want to talk about this" is how i started the conversation, but she asked what was wrong, and that's where it took us. *shrug* Pretty typical Ramtha conversation


I am not only trying to gather proof of R's fallacies, but I do feel that it will help. I am also trying to get together our other friends who describe themselves as "spiritual" (I personally identify as kind of a relaxed Buddhist) but who also completely disagree with RSE. I'm contacting friends of hers/ours who would be also worried about this. My collection of "things that just don't add up" about R and his preictions is getting impressive, as well.

In response to the Yelm description- the friend of ours who got my girlfriend into RSE lives deep into Yelm in a really nice part, not really near all the military creeps. A good 20 minutes away from the Ramtha school. It's not like the gross hick parts of Yelm you're describing, so I don't think that would work unfortunately.

-I read somewhere that he predicted a tidal wave would wipe out Sydney, Australia. Does anyone have the info on what he said about that -

I read that about it in a new age type of magazine in Australia - I was visiting my family at that time and remember reading the article and thinking to myself "what kind of spiritual being is putting so much fear into people and that why would someone put that much fear into people" - it was a really big time fear based article - i remember that article very well - it was the time people were saying that Ramtha had already left because it was the time of the Arabian horse scam that Ramtha had dealed up and it seems people were saying that Ramtha had come and gone and that JZ was pretending to be Ramtha. I can't think of the name of the magazine but if I do I will let you know - might be out of print though....

zyxwv -- before you develop too much of a plan, you should check out some of the books and reading material written by some of the experts in the field.. While I know to you and me, a lot of what you say makes perfect sense, but actually it is specifically suggested that you do not say or do things that are confrontational or challenging or put the person in the position to defend their belief, like, “You’re in a cult, you're brainwashed.” [I did this, it didn't help]....or argue with the cult member about the cult’s beliefs or criticize the group or the leaders.. [I did this and it didn't help either]...it will only end as you've already found..."I don't want to talk about this"....

From what I'm gathering, RSE has a fairly good mechanism for training students to detach from and discard friends and relatives, loved ones, who interfere with their "enlightenment"... It is actually admired if one gives up something very meaningful in the name of the cause... The more you give up, the further along in your path you are... Many ex students on this board have done just that... You don't want to do anything that will further drive a wedge between you and your girlfriend...

Read read read, first.

Check out the recent post on this board about Peter Olsson's latest book, "Malignant Pied Piper"...

I understand your frustration... You think because the logic makes sense to YOU that SHE should and will understand and see the light... That's a hard pill to swallow... I'm still working on that one... Sometimes we have to ask ourselves who we are trying to save.... Our loved one or ourselves... Understand?

Hidey Ho, zwxyv,
Pleased to meet you and welcome to EMF, land of the disillusioned or something like that.
I was a very current student for too long and I never heard Judy-pretending-to-be-Ramtha talk about 5/5/2000. There was a book for sale in the "Annex" by David Icke which referred to it. I do have a lot of tapes from 1999 (the truth teachings, Judy-pretending-to-be-Ramtha was preoccupied with demoralizing "students" and "staff")and if you would like to listen to them I woud be happy to send them to you.

OneHand – Thank you for the correction – I’d forgotten the y2k thing – probably because it was a worldwide fear craze via every media and probably a great number of cult leaders, church speakers, prophets etc. Ramtha clearly didn’t have the market cornered on y2k paranoia. (and as grateful as I am to the techies who “fixed” the problem, I can only wonder how these techie geniuses of our world were taken by surprise that the number 2000 followed the number 1999 – I believe I learned that in first grade and I ain’t no techie genius.)
I have a much different perspective of the mid-late 80’s predictions – You seem to be unique from the people I know/knew and my own reactions – far more than squirreling away nuts. Consider an apartment city dweller – how do you suppose they could handle chickens and goats and cows and organic gardens and solar power and a well with a hand pump? The message was very clear to obtain these things. People changed their entire lives – sold their homes and businesses, bought land, and studied “Real Goods” catalogues. … Ask a real estate agent who was here in the late ‘80s about the ‘boom’ in the Bald Hills. .. Even worse, we were told we had 4 years – and to give up our goals and dreams and future plans. I remember when a friend went to law school and thinking what a waste of time. There was a great great great deal of fear. So – xyw – It’s been 20 years give or take – and our society goes on – my lawyer friend’s education was not a waste – to the point of pleading before a State Supreme Court to protect the innocent.
xyw, listen to some audio tapes from the late ‘80s and see for yourself if any of the predictions came true – as I must reconcile what could I have accomplished in this world, what gifts could I have discovered, how many people could I have helped had I not given up dreaming and goals and education because Ramtha said to.

It's hard for me to obtain books about cults or cult psycology or to listen to old ramtha tapes, etc, b/c I live with my girlfriend. I go on this board only on my computer when she is not home; she has no idea I am on this board or that it even exists (though she does know I read R's books just to disprove them and that I've been reading anti-RSE materials online)

I am not yet willing to let her know that I am researching all of this from a cult psychology viewpoint, so I can't realy have a book like that around the house.

Our lease is up in 10 months, and after that I feel that whereever she lives she will consider a "temporary" house because she expects that anytime between 1 and 3 years from now that she will abruptly pack up and move to Yelm at the first sign of a major catastrophe. In my mind, that means we have 10 months to kind of "resolve" this, because I am sure as hell not moving to Yelm with her.

I understand why most people think I should not drop the "cult" bomb on her or bombard her with all of RSE's fallacies. Is getting a cult psycology book the best way to go? I am starting to get a guilty conscience about how much sneaking behind her back I am doing in regards to looking up RSE, cults, etc. that's why I kind of just want to tell her how I feel, and why I feel that way, because her randomly finding me reading a cult psychology book could REALLY make things weird between us. At least if I tell her how I feel first, then my reading books like that might not be quite as offensive, though I understand that even telling her how I feel could potentially make her feel ostracized and therefore further her involvement in RSE.

this is quite a catch 22 I'm in. It's starting to kind of consume me- I resaerch cults and Ramtha instead of doing my homework. I feel that my life will continue to be distracted and out of sorts until I get something resolved about this whole RSE thing.

zyw-
I really feel for you.
What a spot to be in.
I think that Dr Olsson book that was printed in 2005 would be a good start.
It really points out alot of extremists, and the title might not alarm her.
He has a program coming out on the history channel on oct 10 check out the listings in your area.
This guy is HIGHLY HIGHLY regarded in his arena of expertise, and Dartmouth is so slouch of a college.
I think his new one about Osama bin Laden will even be more revealing.
To imagine all these "leaders" have two common threads.
yeah-
I don't know how you can be right now with your girlfriend other than to agree to disagree on the subject.
That is pretty clear.

as far as living arrangements ten months down the road, pray there is a pot hole
somewhere between here and then that she
can see some light.
We are here for you.....
Keep reading and thinking critically.
You are the the anchor she has to the
REAL world.

and zyx-
am I assuming your girlfriends parents are still in RSE?

It has been my experience, that amongst my son's friends ( the young 20 year olds), most of them diss Ramtha, but amongst their group, 2 still attend, but the people in the group give a wide berth of allowance for allowing people to live
and freely think.
But most of the 18-24 year olds have
wised up, all on their own.
Not due to their parents.

Hi Zyx,
"


"I understand why most people think I should not drop the "cult" bomb on her or bombard her with all of RSE's fallacies. Is getting a cult psychology book the best way to go? I am starting to get a guilty conscience about how much sneaking behind her back I am doing in regards to looking up RSE, cults, etc. that's why I kind of just want to tell her how I feel, and why I feel that way, because her randomly finding me reading a cult psychology book could REALLY make things weird between us. At least if I tell her how I feel first, then my reading books like that might not be quite as offensive, though I understand that even telling her how I feel could potentially make her feel ostracized and therefore further her involvement in RSE".

I know the feeling, however you might want to consider trying something like this.

She is your girlfriend; forget about trying to educate her right now, how about simply asking for more time with her to do the things you enjoy together. Many of the things that RSE is offering are full of fear even though she may not have gotten there yet. Compete for her time spent on RSE, keep track of how much time it takes away from your relationship. With you not mentioning it.

The point being to spend more time offering a alternative, things you know she likes and enjoys, if she feels the need to change those things like they’re too superficial for her or something, then you can point out to her that her interests have suddenly changed. Leave out that you feel that they are part of the groups influence. Just keep telling her when things like that occur that are new and troubling. Include the things that you honestly feel are changing for the better also.


Somewhere along the line this will give you a background to build on to show her how she changed, how quickly and if she had really wished to do that in the first place.

She is enchanted right now, that is tough to compete with unless you throw in some enchantment of your own.

Best of luck to you.

zywxv -- "it is starting to comsume me"...

I completely hear you -- I'm doing the same thing at work... I am at my computer all day so I find myself constantly looking at this board for new posts, checking my email, etc... I think "This can't be good, this is consuming ME as much as it's consuming THEM [my mother and sister]"... and then I think "I won't give Judith Knight satisfaction of letting this take over MY life, even if I am coming at it from a different angle"...So I just have to make myself get my head in a different place... Do stuff that keeps me connected to "normal life"... This is a bit depressing, so I make sure that I do things I enjoy... when it all becomes too heavy, I make myself take a break from it for a day...it IS frightening to discover your loved ones are under the influence of a destructive personality....There are feelings of hopelessness and helplessness to deal with....I wanted to rush out tonight and buy that Peter Olsson book and called three bookstores in my area to see if they had it and none of them did and I was ticked!! I was fantasizing about being able to hole up this three day weekend and TOTALLY consume myself in reading about "this"... ... I had to tell mysef to get a grip and BREATHE.... ...

Someone else told me that the normal human reaction is to want to DO something as it makes it seem less overwhelming.. and I believe this is true....

Funny though, in an interesting way, how the "malignancy" spills over to family and friends who are not RSE students...

Take a break now and then, breathe, and know that life happens and you'll be ok whatever happens.

"I think "This can't be good, this is consuming ME as much as it's consuming THEM [my mother and sister]"... and then I think "I won't give Judith Knight satisfaction of letting this take over MY life, even if I am coming at it from a different angle"

very good point Marie.
I can understand that as well.
From a recovering person's point of view, reading, posting, etc has been very healing.
I think many former students find solace in these small discoveries. At least I do.
RSE took up 20 years of my life, now I am compelled to educate and warn others so their minds will not
get twisted and then have to recover.

And yes, I agree to get out and enjoy things that I really love to do. This has been very helpful in seeing how brainwashed I was, so much as to not go out to "the city" for fear some military was going to
gobble us all up.
Like journey said, to keep doing things that most people enjoy...this keeps one sane,balanced and healthy.

zyxwv,

The 5/5/2000 from Ramtha was to seek higher grounds and take everything that you have and brings tools to build a home and seeds to grow a garden because the the earth would be destroyed and you would have to live in the mountain or underground for two years and after that you could come out.

If you lived in Yelm, you would be safe. he said that you would have to live this way for two years and then in 2011 the world would be completed destroyed and there would never again be this planet.

Well nothing happen and of course the book called 5/5/2000 was a hit and Ramtha used that book as proof of what he was staying was truthful.

sorry..this is a long post...many responses in one...

naturegirl...what you said is also what i remember. we were told to have an underground "house" to hide in, and be able to filter the dirty air, have food/water for two years for every person in your family, stored away. then, at one event, ramther said store TEN years of food for every person in your family.

i thought to myself, "this is just nuts. i have a big family, so we're going to starve? not." i did store some things for y2k, despite my extended family (consisting of some computer programmers who worked DIRECTLY, nationally, on y2k programming changes), who told me that they had advance notice of the issue and had fixed almost all of it...there would be no global catastrophe w computers. but i worried for my kids and i "had to" protect them with dried beans and rice (blech...how long ya wanna eat that?).

anyway, live and learn.

xyz...reading the last waltz of the tyrants book is as close as you'll get to ramther's predictions. in particular the ones addressing the doom and gloom version of days to come, that never arrive. at various events, it would be fairly common for ramther to dole out new 'info' (predictions), many of which never happened. some were just lies imo - such as telling (threatening, actually) students that the city of yelm was going to take jz's property (the school!!!) by eminent domain to put a road through her back yard, if nascar was allowed in. we were told (i was there) if we did not write letters to the committee for nascar, ramther "would bring you down".

i found that offensive.

i also found out that there was never a plan filed with the planning and zoning commission in yelm, that would include putting a road through her backyard. now, that is an example of losing one's critical thinking skills. ramther said it, therefore it must be so - don't check it out to see if it's bologna.

another issue:
balance.
i don't think it's a "bad" thing that one goes through a PHASE in their lives when they are consumed with reading this forum, or cult-related books, etc.
why is this my opinion?
because it's a startling, HUGE shift in a person's life - whether they're waking up to the fact they are/were in a cult, or have a loved one in there.
we go through a phase where we just consume educational material. if we're lucky, we also find support so we aren't going through this phase alone, because IT IS VERY INTENSE.

it took me two YEARS to leave rse, after i knew it was Over. i kept going to events, as i Secretly was reading FACTNet (woohoo!!), and learning more rotten things about rse's workings than i had witnessed on my own. i also read about experiences similar to my own, and people's reactions, which were similar to my own when we started to say WTF????? then, one fine evening, as i sat in the second to the front row, i stared intently at ramther all evening. i felt a strange mixture of emotions. ramther even talked to me that night - looked me in the eye and made a number of comments. i just thought to myself...this is sooooo over. i won't be coming back here again. ever. i cried all the way home on the plane. i avoided eye contact with everyone because i'm sure my eyes were red/swollen and i looked weird that way.

i cried on/off for 4 months. then, it started to lessen. i had a range of emotions. i wanted to DO something. something proactive. it bothered me very much that CHILDREN are in those audiences. to this day i feel confident that the STATE OF WASHINGTON'S CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES needs to be in there because there IS child abuse going on in there, with the children being REPEATEDLY EXPOSED TO PROFANITY AND SEXUALLY EXPLICIT TALK, AND DRUNKENESS, etc.

balance.

my innards calmed down. i cried myself out. i looked around me, in my life. for the first time in a long time, i REALLY saw the beauty in my yard, reveled in the details of what the kids were doing, without part of my mind drifting off to something ramther said...wanted to be with my friends and do "mundane" things...because i realized THIS IS LIFE. it is the beauty of life.

xyz...when i think of you, i hear the stewardess on the airplane saying to put the oxygen mask ON YOURSELF FIRST, and then someone else. maybe it would be good for you, to enjoy the best side of your relationship with Girlfriend for now...and just quietly find your balance point with all of this rse stuff. AFTER you've found YOUR balance point, you'll have more clarity about how to proceed in your life.

then, when you're on strong footing, that confidence and self esteem, and presence of mind, will come through to Girlfriend, no matter what the future holds for the two of you - together - or not. hopefully, together. sounds like she's a lucky lady.

GO DO YOUR HOMEWORK !

a few hours of homework, then you can read on here for a few hours ? balance. really try to give yourself that. it will get easier.

for anyone who read through this entire post, THANKS.

You made a lot of good sense, Whatcha -- thanks for taking the time to post!.. and you're right about wanting to KNOW everything once you find out you or your loved one is in a cult... I hadn't thought of it that way, but that's exactly what it is... it IS intense.

wow, thanks a lot. I have been better the past few days (enjoying myself more, doing my homework, etc)

I guess part of the problem is that my girlfriend and I are on VERY backwards schedules (she works 8-5 weekdays, i work/go to school nights and weekends) so we only se eachother for a few hours a day. the things we like to do together are cook, watch movies, read, and talk about "deep" stuff. Well, her reading has been consumed by RSE and related things (along with her car Cd player, etc), as has much "deep conversation", so it's hard to seperate RSE from our relatoinship even for a day or two, because the books lay open all over the house and the CD is on in her car (she turns it off when i get it, but still).

but yeah, i'm figuring it out. this board is helping a lot. thanks a bunch.

And Tree- no, her parents aren't in RSE. she only got into from out friend less than a year ago.

awesome post whatcha!!
EXACTLY what I went through.
And I have to keep telling myself daily
to put the oxygen mask on myself first.

I want to make a side note here, if I may, to re-support the "put the oxygen mask on yourself first."

I have had the not-so-grand opportunity of renting to Ramsters for the last year.
After the fourth call to the sheriff's office this week concerning the last family (the mother, grandmother and teenage some are all bi-polar), they finally left
yesterday yelling obscenities the whole way out.
I have done nothing but go out my way for all these renters...give them wood I had, when they had none, show them how to clean a chimney out, hang out with the 14 year old boy who had episodes, like I do/did ( at first, I was the best thing since sliced bread), gave them furniture,
gave them blankets, etc etc

I had to finally cut off the water and electrical supply to get them the heck out of there (they over stayed their aggreement with me by nearly two weeks).
And as they left yesterday, screaming like wild banshies, I found myself
1) very relieved they were gone but 2) I found myself in tears, because there is no
way to communicate with people who go
to that school.
Their minds are totally twisted.
And then they take no responsibility for
their own lack of whatever, then they put it onto the non-school students.
I cried tears of relief, but also tears of
loathing because JZ has done this to these
people, and there is NO possible way to
have any sort of clear communication with these people because their heads are
totally scrambled.
It was just an amazing experience.

(And know that I have a plan in action for getting the heck outta dodge!!)
Thanks for reading.

Tree - you have done so much for these people. The fact they're RSE students, did they forget 'the teaching - they created their reality!'

You did all you could, and it is so admirable. What would have someone else done in another place, say, New Jersey, New York, etcetera. YOU went above and beyond. In a manner of speaking, 'you are levitating' far and above any RSE 'creating' reality.

The best to you for standing up tall, and offering all of your help to the rest of us.

Obscenities? Early teachings were 'no obscenities.' I don't know what the early days were like, but when I was there, I got the shock of my life to hear JR using profanities and talking about sex - with CHILDREN IN THE AUDIENCE. Then I saw a part of "Where Angels Fear to Tread' - an edited version. My head was spinning.Another inconsistency in teachings. Then the "take care of your bay-baaaays" to the parents. To do so, they have to get the kids out of that place!

Tree, I for one cannot thank you enough for your courage and for your reaching out to the rest of us.
A huge thanks to those who started this forum.

Ditto -- lots of courage on this board... My heart and thanks goes out to all.

'I wanted to rush out tonight and buy that Peter Olsson book and called three bookstores in my area to see if they had it and none of them did and I was ticked!! I was fantasizing about being able to hole up this three day weekend and TOTALLY consume myself in reading about "this"... ... I had to tell mysef to get a grip and BREATHE.... ...'

the same thing happened to me as well!!!

Tree and anyone else dashing to book stores for the Olsson book -- the guy at B&N told me that it was listed as a "print on demand" book... meaning they don't normally keep it stocked and it's printed as demand comes in... so it has to be ordered... Bah.

I just checked with Amazon....good to go