magpi,

there's a lot of in-fighting of various types in that place. the staff gossip about each other and are competitive amongst themselves. one of the things i disliked (but it also helped me to leave and see a bigger picture), was this; when i would travel to events, the people that i knew, who were connected to the inner circle, were always, ALWAYS talking about the latest drama going on.

i heard many things. as has been mentioned (postings) before, it's such a hypocrisy. one would expect that the staff, whom people are going to be observing, should be acting in a certain manner - at least professional. but it's not at all the case. i've heard FAR more than i would ever post on this forum. i get emails from people, and have talked on the phone with them, who are still "connected" to inner goings on. it's appalling.

but it's also true that one can lead a horse to water, and not make them drink. the students who are committed customers, aren't going to listen to an 'outsider'. they think of the people who are not in the school as beneath them. they are told "don't case pearls of wisdom before swine."

so, how do you talk to them ? the language just isn't the same. there's a communication barrier there, as there can also be between people who have never attended, and those who have left. it reminds me of trying to explain labor and delivery to a pregnant woman who is expecting her first baby. the understanding can only go so far until she experiences it for herself.

btw, that's certainly not encouragement for anyone to attend the school - quite the contrary.

Fixing on one thing-

How different is RSE than Church?

Depends which Church - not just talking about different denominations or practices, but about different houses of worship in the same faith community - it depends on the Pastor/Priest/Minister.
The Church I attended, for example, taught that the Devil was already vanquished, we had all already been redeemed, that although we were as errant children, God loved us, regardless, and that we should celebrate Christ's gift of redemption by actively loving one another and fostering wellbeing wherever we could.
Not much guilt inducing went on. A lot of relief work, anti-war protests and community service, charitable donations, stuff like that - I remember our entire congregation would adopt Foster children.

Of course, you could say that that Church was not typical. I sometimes felt, because of an almost complete lack of ritual, and the very matter-of-factness of it all, it was more like a social club. I also partially agree, that that Church is losing ground because, in an effort to include everyone and be non-judgmental, they do not moralize very much, or take a firm stand against anything (besides war and social injustice) - the first Gay marriage in Canada was celebrated at a Church of the same denomination.
If you want to politicize the definition, it was a 'Socialist' Church.
And, while a collection plate was passed around at services, you would not be shown the door if you refused to place money in it.
To what extent this contrasts with RSE, I leave to former students to judge.
There is a Christian Church I know, though, whose pastor actually makes R look tame; parents are kidnapping their children, who have run away to join this Church, and having them deprogrammed!

Whatchamacallit, I appreciate your input. It's rough to wade thru it. Lot of pent up anger/hurt and confusion.
I went to RSE as green as it gets. Thought it was Jon Seagull atmosphere. My first contact was w/V.C. in the smokers pit. She was laying on her back w/a smoke talking about something being worse than "panther ******** And, she was an awful person...at best. As were most of staff. So, I didn't understand...was naive. At the tension and hostility and competition. I've never sen such HATRED! What the...? I cant imagine treating anyone that rudely or being that calloused. A freaking WAR ZONE! Not only between staff but between students. Confused, I made a comment to an "advanced" student that the "students reminded me of a new born litter of pups..eyes closed...climbing all over each other trying to get to the milk". And, it confused me. Needless to say my comment didn't go over well.

Lost In Space,
Church (for me) is the same lesson RSE is. It's the same. Guess I didn't learn the first time? The pastors wife was a spoiled brat, princess that thoght life was supposed to cater to her (hampton). That somehow she had given up Sooooo much to be a pastors wife. A sacrifice for "Christ". Sound familiar? She didn't work..shouldnt have to .It was her husbands responsibility to provide for her. The shopping trips to Hudsons (expensive). She had to have the best clothes. Eat out. Couldn't work. Because being a pastors wife is a full time job. Prayer meetings and all.
"OUR" church was purchased on a land contract. That they didn't make the payments on. No one knew. And, they (the pastor) wouldn't give a financial statement. As the "man of God" we had no right to question him.
As it turned out, for two years he didnt make a payment to the previous "owners" also same denomination. Taht I ultimately visited inFlorida. It's how I found out about it. That the "pastor" was taking all the tithes, not paying the payments. Working full time (made good $) and living well off the people. Sound familiar?

magpi says; "I've never sen such HATRED! What the...? I cant imagine treating anyone that rudely or being that calloused. A freaking WAR ZONE! Not only between staff but between students."

I have to admit and agree with that. The level of control there reminded me more of a gulgag than a guru-retreat.

In all honesty, the only "group" of people I have ever experienced (47 years and counting, and 4 continents worth) or met to be more hateful than the "Ramsters" would have to be the Bloods or the Crips urban gangs. Even the Hell's Angels are nicer people than those creeps.

Truth.

Magpi,

"How different is rse from church?"

First of all, when you say "church" I am not sure exactly how you would define that.

However, if I were to use a definition of a place of worship to included it being made up of members of the community, that actively engages in the practice of thier belieifs at no monetary profit and brings their good will back into the community at large even among those who are not of the same belief. I can say the following:

If you are getting the picture of the type of organisation I am speaking of there would be many IMPORTANT differences.

1. Non-profit

2. Their practices would not necessarily seperate them from their surrounding community.

3. They do not require a gag order to participate

4. Most that I am aware of do not require the donning of blindfolds in their disiplines for hours on end.

5. if ones saw contadictory behavior from one of the leaders, eventually their would be consequences.

**6.The Priest, Rabbi, Minister, Imann or whatever had to go through some sort of instruction to become the title they now posses. There is a system within which they can be held accountable (even though it may be too slow and burdensome).

7. If you wanted to know what it would take to become one of the above, you could find out to a certain degree, and if you found out along the way you had been lied too, hopefully you would be supported by those who had also been lied too and not told that it was all your own fault.

I would think that these are substancial enough differences to make a real difference.

if what you are trying to say is that the abuses in "churches" and rse can be similar perhaps you are correct. Abuses can happen anywhere to anyone. Another question to ask would be does the enviornment that they occur in enable them as a possibility more in one place then another?

All of the above does not come from my experience as a "church goer". I have not had extensive experience with that. However, it does come from my many years interacting with members of many faiths, seeing how they conduct their lives, listening to their views, and listening to their reasoning.

In my opinion, the majority of "churches" fall into the benign,and/ or an integral part of thier community.

RSE did not enlist the community around them. They chose to build their own private community within an existing one. Why? Perhaps one reason might be, locals would not fall for the con. Bringing outsiders into this rural community helps to foster a feeling of eliteness that furthers the RSE agenda.

I hope this helps to brings out some real differences and in some cases similarities.

Happy new year!!!

jtr;

You forgot one cardinal difference between RSE and "church" (assuming Christian, of course).

One worships God.

The other would appear to worship the exact same things that the Bible called "Satan".

....nuff said.

Happy New Year, bro!!!

Tyger I think we have a close view on RSE.

Only thing I would add is that, what I view as a typical neighborhood house of worship, a place you go for support, help, to help, etc. I am talking about the church down the street. Not the TV church, not the PAC church. I'm talking about the church with some good folks who help out the neighborhood and feel good and are happy to do it.

This church worships a faith that they hold dearly. RSE teaches to worship yourself.

LEEMAR;

Correct and in-correct.

You are correct about the neighborhood Christian church. They generally follow an established traditional tenet that is easily traceable for eons now.

You are in-correct about RSE. RSE only "sells" that you worship yourself. The actuality is that you are required to worship JZ's alter ego, Mr. Hyde aka Ramtha. The "god" JZ tells you to worship is required to take drugs, urinate blind, stomp around in animal feces, and is thoroughly degraded on a regular basis. Some "god", eh? These are the CLASSIC TENETS of Satanism as defined in the Bible (and NOT Hollyweird...)

There is no "god" at RSE and never was. That is apparent.