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help me understand what you're saying please.
am getting my questions answered. appears jonathon seagull was written in 1970. the contents of it are identical to the premise of rse. "Ramtha" huh? same theme-interesting.
Bach was living around the Seattle area on one of the islands with one of his wives or "soulmates" the first I heard anything personal about him in 1986 from someone that was his neighbor. All I will say is that Bach's fantasy about his ideal "soulmate" was just that---the guy lives in a dream world.
Here's an example of how Bach thinks [or doesn't]:
"Yes. Before we can even fly an airplane, we have to say, "I believe that this can happen." Yet we go out there and we try to pick up an airplane--we can't do it. It weighs 1,000 pounds or 10,000 or 500,000, no way to lift that. We look around it very carefully, there're no strings or wires or cables or hydraulic jacks that are going to pick this up. But something invisible, we know, something magical, can lift it like a feather. We don't have to understand it to make it work for us, we just have to try it. Take this little Cub and taxi it at 40 miles an hour and watch what happens. Look! The little wheels are off the ground! And the more we learn about the invisible principle of aeronautics, the more freedom we find. I think there's an invisible principle of living too. If we believe we're guided through every step of our lives, we are. It's a lovely sight, watching it work."
Yes, in the 1970s I read [and heard] Jonathan L Seagull when it came out, and read Illusions later. I was never impressed with Bach's work but since 1986 I'm a critic of what I see as his bozo philosophy and magical thinking.
Bach taps an ongoing neo-tradition in religion, especially the 19th Century ideas promulgated by New thought groups.
I doubt very much that Bach had a direct influence on JZ's early Ramtha phase. There are too many indications that she borrows from other places like the old I AM cult and other more significant sources already named on this EMF forum.
Neo-occultism today is a milieu that stems from the 18th and 19th century. In my opinion, Bach and JZ have drunk from the same well and that same well feeds a wide market of seekers that number in the tens of millions.
I hope that helps answer you......
Richard Bach??? Re-cycled Blatavasky????
Bach had affinity with Unity but was a Christian Scientist, so he recycled Mary Baker Eddy (1821-1910):
"A part of Bach’s persona actually is his religion. A big proponent of the [First] Church of Christ, Scientists, Bach extends some of the philosophy this religion in his novels. The Scientists believe that “Heaven and hell are not regarded as specific destinations one reaches after death, but as states of thought, experienced in varying degrees here and now, as well as after death.” These are not the only religions represented in Bach’s novels."
JZ is more a tap on the H P Blavatsky milieu than anything else, truly the godmother of female channelers that control male gods. Lke JZ, HPB only channeled males entities [5 of them in her mature period after her spiritualist John King days---St Germain, Djaul Khul, Old Man of the Hills, Koot Hoomi, and Morya with the latter two being her main "men".
btw, happy new year y'all...
I am about to go home after putting in a 12 hour shift overnight and we were very busy early on, so I will be brief.
Tyger, is that "hehe" about Bach or Blavatsky, or does it matter?
This neo-occult "milieu" I mention---both the Blavatsky and Bach [aka Theosophy and New Thought] family of sects and teachers, they tap the ancient hope that the human psyche/mind can align with a force or God-mind and do magic or paranormal healing, read the future, etc.
Now I am not saying that these "powers" are not possible but I am saying that the groups, cults and new prophets like Mary Baker Eddy provide no real evidence that the "power" was improved by using their techniques. Mary Baker Eddy had dental pain and treatments by dentists after she discovered "christian science."
She died at age 88--a long life to be sure but consider my father:
He's nearly 86, still works 50 - 60 hours a week in an unheated concrete product plant as an electrician! My gritty, sometimes practicing Catholic father has no belief in "mind power."
In my observations, Christian Scientists and occultists in general are just as likely to die of disease, have an average lifespan or suffer pain as any average satanist or atheist--or even a Catholic!
That "hehehehe" was acknowledging your evidence of JZ's Blavatsky's connection. I tend to agree with you. Her stuff pre-dates Bach's, but like you said, they drank from the same well.
I too read Bach's stuff long before I attended RSE and was also unimpressed with his "theories", although he does write very well.
I'm also very familiar with Blavatsky and the rest of the kooks from what I call, "The Darwin Era".
Annnnd......the one time I attended the "school", I saw trappings of that old crapola all over the place.
So he actually made up the "soulmate/wife" character??? Daaaayuuuum. I didn't know that. Pathetic. LOL!!!
I was referring to Bach's real companion/2nd wife Leslie Parrish who he wrote about in Bridge Across Forever and One.
Here's a bit on his soul struggle to mate well:
"Bach had six children with his first wife, Bette. They divorced in 1970, because Richard didn't believe in marriage. [Bette Bach Fineman - she remarried - is also a pilot, and the author of Patterns, about her life as a single mother.] His son, Jonathan, is a journalist, who wrote a book about growing up without knowing his father, Richard; and then later meeting him as a college student. (Richard gave his approval; although he noted that it included some personal history he'd "rather not see in print"). His daughter, Bethany, was killed in an accident at the age of fifteen in 1985.
In 1977 Bach married actress Leslie Parrish whom he met during the making of the Jonathan Livingston Seagull movie. . She was a major element in two of his subsequent books — The Bridge Across Forever and One — which primarily focused on their relationship and Bach's concept of soulmates. They divorced in 1999. Bach was married to his third wife, Sabryna Nelson-Alexopoulos in April of 1999."
The last 'wiff' will not let him write about her...so do not look for another 'me and my wife are the perfect cosmically ordained pair' book.
Knew nothing about his private life. Or his 'new age' beliefs. Thought Jonathan Livingston Seagull was a lovely spiritual book. Did not see where it was new, or countering traditional religion. I was only 14 when I read it. I don't think its particularly dangerous, or likely to make anybody run out and join a cult. Maybe what followed, subsequent books, or a philosophy inspired by Bach was the problem?
About Christian Science. Did not see it as so way out either. Not dangerous.
I had heard, though, that Christian Scientists, and Mormons, really tend to be healthier than the rest of us. And the reason? Not because they have a closer relationship to God or a mainline to the Spirit World, or channel powerful healers, but because the lifestyles they adopt if they practice their faith devoutely really are healthier (though they probably won't cure toothache) because they refrain from alcohol, caffein, do not smoke, educate themselves about proper nutrition, and practice monogamy. Unlikely to die of aids or lung cancer, for instance.
On the other hand, alcohol - red wine - has been found to be beneficial for heart disease. Doesn't mean, of course, that we should all get sloshed.
Seagull dangerous? I hope you do not think I inferred dangerous... but yes to
silly and self-centered.
"About Christian Science. Did not see it as so way out either. Not dangerous."
Lost, tell that to CS children that suffered and sometimes died because their parents would not admit that anything was wrong and eschewed ever considering a regular doc.
Strict CS practitioners do not attend or have funerals. Death does not "exist".
Mary Baker Eddy was a fascinating and powerful woman. Even her great critic Mark Twain admitted as much. The Masons built a large granite Pyramid as a monument in her honor. The CS folks later blew it up.
It was a reminder that she actually "died." She died of pneumonia after 9 days of suffering at age 89. It took many days for CS witnesses to allow a medical examiner to check and report on it as requied by law.
As far as lifespan/health, yes the CS folks generally come from a higher strata of social success and are teatotalers but if you compare them to same social set outside of CS there is probably no difference. Of course, most CS people do see docs when necessary. As in any strict faith group, most members cheat a little and lapse too.
I was not saying anything about Ms. Eddy. Was talking about modern CS people I have met. Fascinating to hear about things that happened in days gone by, though. But as you may recall from previous posts, I consider that there are chapters in Catholic (and Protestant) Christian history that really are embarrasing and painful to dwell on for modern practitioners.
And u are right, CS people and Mormons don't have a corner on abstemiousness, or chastity, or anything like that. Just giving them credit for having sound health practices built-in to their faiths.
Also, other faiths I can think of also have that.
A higher strata, Joe? I am pretty egalitarian, I would say. But I grew up privileged. And I must tell you, the teenagers on my block had more money for drugs, more money for fast cars/motorcycles which they were likely to smash up, and a sense that they could get away with more, because "daddy will fix it" was their mantra = Daddy was a lawyer, a judge or a politician.
The real privilege I had, which is not the sole preserve of the affluent, was having parents who cared, who made themselves available to me, who were not selfish or narcissistic, who made sure I ate right, got enough sleep, behaved respectfully to others (I didn't get beat up), minded my manners, did my homework, obeyed the laws of the land (didn't get expelled or wind up in jail)...you get the picture. And there are parents like that everywhere, and parents who fail miserably, everywhere.
I noticed that some of my peers on "easy street" went home to empty houses and made themselves TV dinners, parking themselves in front of the TV, or asked themselves over to my house for dinner, because they were wretchedly lonely (even though Mom wasn't a great cook).
I was allowed to read whatever I wanted though...don't suppose that hurt me.
I am saying, it's not the beliefs, it's the behaviour that counts, when it comes to health, or values.
About the eschewing of traditional medicine///
Some home remedies work. Those kids might have died anyway. And I thought it was the Jehovah's Witnesses who would not permit their children medical treatment?? (at least, if that meant blood transfusions). Still, I don't think it's right to deny your kids medical care if they need it. The subject didn't come up with the CS people I have known. Is that true?
Or is it sort of like the Catholic Church's position on Birth Control - while understood to be a stern directive from respected spiritual leaders, in practice it is commonly flouted?
You can check out these articles above for a start. Sure CS people are nice [all the ones I ever met were sweet to me socially] but I would not let their practitoners "treat" my dog let alone my children.
You are right, it is the "behaviour" not the belief, per se. Treating people based on a belief is a behavior. Withholding perfectly good medicine when it is available and required is "mistreating" on my way of seeing the world.
My the same token, bringing this back to Bach, I think his subcurrent of subjective idealism can have a toxic effect on anyone that takes it in uncritically.
But thanks for the give and take, Lost. I mean that...
You are welcome, Joe.
Just because I argue with you doesn't mean I don't respect and appreciate you.
Well, read about 3 minutes worth (I read fast) of those articles, and cannot continue, too depressed. Does, unfortunately, outweigh the extent to which I was impressed by my friend's parents, one of whom had cancer, the other Parkinson's disease, receiving aid from CS, when medical science had written them off. They were healed. Maybe it was the placebo effect. anyway, 2 lives of adults cannot outweigh 167 lives of kids.