Enlighten Me Free

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Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

Leemar,

I didn't say you are uneducated. I suggested that since you called ALL students of RSE (former/current) some insulting adjectives, that doing so suggests you are uneducated and ignorant about how mind control (cults) operate. In the beginning they sure do seem nice ! Enough so that plenty of people return. However, my understanding is that the average length of stay is 2 - 3 years. Most people don't stay. It's the "radical few" (so they are told) who do stay.


I also said that there are plenty of people who are educated and intelligent who are former/current RSE students. I'm one of them. I also have (advanced) college degrees. I'm far from alone. However, that's irrelevant in that I'm also far from alone, in being vulnerable to mind control. You may think you're impervious, and that's a dangerous thing to believe. Education is paramount to avoiding cult recruitment in whatever form it takes. It's also important for understanding how it occurs, so that we can help those we claim we love, if, or when, they ever get out of the cult.

Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

I am fully aware of cult/high demand behavior and recruiting. However, the product that JZ Knight sells is so outlandish that I cannot believe people actually paid money for this pet rock scheme. Further I cannot believe nor understand how it took some two to three years, perhaps more to figure this out. It would take me about two to three seconds.

If you want to go to Yelm, sit in a field, and pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist, then great. It is when the rse school of scams and schemes gets into my business that you have crossed the line. The line of trust.

My postings have obviously touched a nerve. I would encourage you to do a bit of a behavioral inventory and ask yourself:

did you ever engage in cult speak with your family.
did you ever attempt to influence your family's behavior with "the teachings". (personal finances, books, programs, institutions etc. the cult made you aware of)
did you ever ask a friend to go to an "event" an "assay" or whatever.
did you every give someone a cd, video, book, etc. claiming what wonderful things would come to them.

I bet that more than a few did exactly that.

Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

Leemar,

I'm going to use JTR's method to respond (IN CAPS) FOR EASE OF READING THE DIFFERENT VOICES.

did you ever engage in cult speak with your family.

YES. DESPITE RAMTHIMHER'S WARNINGS NOT TO DISCUSS THE SACRED TEACHINGS WITH A-N-Y-O-N-E, I OPENLY DISCUSSED EVERY EVENT WITH MY FAMILY. THEY DIDN'T ACCEPT THE WHOLE THING, BUT THEY ALSO DIDN'T REJECT THE BASIC PREMISE OF EASTERN MYSTICISM, WHICH AS I'M SURE YOU MUST KNOW, IS FAR FROM NEW NEWS. I HAD PLENTY OF CRITICISM ABOUT EVENTS, TOO. MY ATTITUDE WAS IF I CAN'T TALK TO MY FAMILY, TOUGH. RAMTHIMHER COULD KICK ME OUT, WHICH OF COURSE DIDN'T HAPPEN. BUT THERE WERE ASPECTS OF IT THAT I ENJOYED, AND MUCH I DIDN'T.

did you ever attempt to influence your family's behavior with "the teachings". (personal finances, books, programs, institutions etc. the cult made you aware of)

I NEVER MOVED TO YELM.
I NEVER BUILT A U.G., DESPITE INTENSE PRESSURE.
I DID VERY LITTLE TO INFLUENCE MY FAMILY'S BEHAVIOR. I SPECIFICALLY HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH MY HUSBAND ABOUT HOW I WOULD ...NOT... ALLOW MY CHILDREN TO BE CURRENT STUDENTS IN RSE BECAUSE I DIDN'T BELIEVE IT IS A PLACE FOR CHILDREN, EVEN WHEN I WAS CURRENT.
I DID MAKE SOME FINANCIAL PREPARATIONS - BUT THOSE WERE BY MAINSTREAM SOCIETY STANDARDS WITH ONE EXCEPTION OF SENDING A COUPLE OF HUNDRED DOLLARS TO DAVID HUDSON, AND ONLY ONCE DID I BUY INTO A PYRAMID SCHEME THAT BLEW THROUGH THE SCHOOL. IT WASN'T A LOT OF MONEY AT ALL. THE MONEY I WASTED GOING TO EVENTS, BUYING MATERIALS, THAT'S ANOTHER STORY. I DIDN'T SHOVE IT DOWN MY FAMILY'S THROAT, THOUGH THEY DIDN'T SLAM ME IF I DISCUSSED IT. EVER. THEY WERE VERY TOLERANT - MAYBE TOO TOLERANT.

did you ever ask a friend to go to an "event" an "assay" or whatever.
I DID ASK A FEW PEOPLE TO CHECK IT OUT - BUT ONLY BECAUSE THEY EXPRESSED INTEREST ON THEIR OWN. THAT COULD BE TRUE OF A CHURCH, SYNAGOGUE, ETC. I HAVE A FRIEND NOW, WHO IS A BUDDHIST AND HAS ASKED ME TO GO TO SOME OF THEIR GATHERINGS. SHE MEANT WELL. SO DID I. I'M ALSO CAPABLE OF SAYING, "NO, THANK YOU.", WHICH IS WHAT I DID. ANYONE INVITED, ENCOURAGED, OR SERIOUSLY PRESSURED INTO ATTENDING RSE CAN SAY NO.


did you every give someone a cd, video, book, etc. claiming what wonderful things would come to them.

NO. FOR THE MOST PART, I WAS FAIRLY PRIVATE ABOUT GOING TO RSE. NOT MANY PEOPLE KNEW I WENT.

DO I REGRET IT ? TO A CERTAIN DEGREE I DO. I'M ALSO THANKFUL THAT MY SUPPORTIVE FAMILY NEVER, EVER ATTACKED ... ME ... FOR MY CHOICE TO GO THERE. ONE DAUGHTER THOUGHT IT WAS "WRONG", BUT EVEN SHE DIDN'T "MAKE ME WRONG" FOR SOMETHING I WANTED TO DO. WE DID HAVE A FALLING OUT FOR A FEW YEARS, WHICH IS NOW BEING PATCHED BACK TOGETHER. TO THIS DAY, SHE HAS STILL NEVER GOTTEN "IN MY FACE" ABOUT HOW I DID HER DIRTY FOR THE TIME I SPENT AWAY FROM HER WHEN SHE WAS YOUNGER AND I ATTENDED EVENTS. I KNOW SHE DISAGREED WITH IT, BUT THAT'S HER RIGHT.

I THINK THAT SAYS A LOT, TOO.

MY FAMILY KNOWS THAT IF I HAD IT TO DO OVER AGAIN, I WOULD NEVER HAVE GONE TO RSE. I DON'T SEE MYSELF AS A VICTIM, THOUGH OTHERS MIGHT. THAT'S OKAY. WE ALL HAVE OPINIONS.

WHETHER OR NOT WE HAVE THE PERSONAL INTEGRITY TO RESPECT ONE ANOTHER'S - WELL - THAT'S ANOTHER STORY.

SO DOES THAT MAKE ME A "BAD" PERSON ? HARDLY. I WAS SINCERE ABOUT WHAT I DID. MANY OF US WERE. IN THE LONG RUN WAS IT A WASTE OF MY TIME ? YES.

MAYBE YOU HAVEN'T,
BUT,
MANY OF US DO MAKE MISTAKES IN LIFE, EVEN HUGE ONES. IMO WHAT MATTERS IS WHAT WE DO ONCE WE'VE LEARNED FROM OUR MISTAKES.

ONE THING I COULD NOT DO, IS WALK AWAY IN SILENCE. SO, I HAVEN'T.

Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

Thank you.

My experience was different. Why, I do not know.

I do not know the specifics of your circumstances.

My sister had or has something going on with this group.

Examples:

This is previous to my learning of my sisters involvement.

I am at my mother's house and a couple from Germany show up at her home with my sister. My sister gives me a perfunctory introduction to this couple and they look at me like I'm some sort of a threat. Later to find out they are in the states for an event.

After my mother's funeral, I return to my mothers home for a reception and it is being catered by four people I have never set eyes on before. My sister's friends. I don't wish to sound presumptive, but, in retrospect they appeared to be some sort of mentor or handler from the cult.

Finally, there was a little bit of money available to the cult if they could get her positioned for them and against me. My mother told me my sister wanted her to put her assets into GOLD. Edward Jones was my mothers advisor, do you think they would have supported such a move. No. I just laughed when I heard my sister's investment strategy. Now where do you think that came from.

But I still cannot and willnot accept the fact that she willingly engaged in this crap and selected me as the cause of her problems.

Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

" My mother told me my sister wanted her to put her assets into GOLD."

Of COURSE she told your mother that. Ramthimher told all of us to put our money into gold because the economy was going to tank, and money would be worth ten cents on a dollar or less. We could use the gold, which would skyrocket in value, to pay off our debts if we had any, or to become rich, or both.

Your sister was "under the influence", and probably believed that it was a wise thing to do. She probably believed that went the stock market tanked, and the dollar was worthless, there would be money "saved" from that disaster.

Now, I am not advocating for what sister did. I'm just telling you WHY she probably did it. I don't know of any student, who had money to use for gold, who did not buy it. What I call the fanatics, were the .... imo....greedy ones who ran up charge card debts, to buy coins, and things along that line.

It's like with the SEA-11 Water. We were told 1 TEASPOON a day...but to some people, that means "more must be better". So you can guess what they did.

Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

No Kidding:

You are simply stating my point. You zone out reality and create your Harry Potter land.

My sister has a business degree from the University of Puget Sound, my sister worked for a Big 8 accounting firm, my sister worked in healthcare management. So rather than use her real education she chose the cult and went for Gold, and white gold, and moneyformoms and David Hudson and vortex water and world water solutions.

You are just walking over my point, making excuses for yourself or you don't get it - you may be a fool.

Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

PS NONE MAY BE BEST

1. No white gold
2. No world water solutions
3. No JZK horse syndicates
4. No green algae
5. No downlines
6. No FDA injunctions
7. No Washington dept of Financial Securities cease and decist orders
8. No David Hudson
9. No moneyformoms
10. No masters trust

Can you get it all? What do you think you were/are doing?

Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

Leemar,

I didn't make any excuses. I did what I did. Which was minor compared to what many of them did. It doesn't matter what YOUR opinion is. What matters to ME, is my own family. We are HAPPY...together. We aren't crying over spilt milk, for any mistakes any of us have ever made in life. I'm lucky I have a family who doesn't NEED to hear me grovel at their feet, begging for forgiveness.

If the worst thing I ever did in my life is spend some time away from my kids, learn pseudoscience, blow some money down the tubes, and we're all doing fine, DESPITE it, life is good.


As you said, you will not and cannot accept what IS. What was. That's fine. But with that, comes YOUR responsibility.

So, who may be the fool ?

Sure not me.

Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

Try blowing about 80 grand of your money down a ******* rabbit hole and then let me know how you feel.

Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

Leemar, I expect that I spent around $100,000 at RSE, maybe even more. Probably more.

I UNDERSTAND not smiling about it.

My repeated point and suggestion to you is, you need to reconcile within yourself that you really may not ever be able to do anything about it. So, then, do you spend the rest of your life letting it eat you up, or do you find a place of resolution with it ?

One (of a number) of reasons for this forum is an example of directing some intense energy, into a positive and constructive venue.

Maybe this isn't a good analogy, but it comes to mind so I'll share it. MADD: Mothers Against Drunk Drivers
The founder of that organization lost her beloved child...dead...to some xxxxxxx drunk driver. We lost MONEY. She lost LIFE. She could have gone into a deep, dark depression and stayed there forever. Or, she could have grieved, and done something PROactive with her horrific experience.

If you stay stuck in anger, even though it's justified, then it's as unhealthy as your sister being in that darned place !

Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

An earlier post from whathacallit:Tyger said, "I have sacrificed much for Judith's purposefully and pre-meditated lie. So have thousands of others.

That's not right."

Yes - and that is why this website exists. It's primary intent is to offer a forum for support for those of us who haven't had such a place to communicate. Also, to share information of an educational nature about the nature of mind control, cults and the like.

Exactly, what she has done, is not right.
Email: emailwhatchamacallit@yahoo.com


Reply:

What my sister has done is not right. You said it. I've been saying it it is about accountability. Everyone wants JZK to be accountable, but I don't see anyone from the cult stepping up and saying hey I was wrong, I'm sorry about how I treated you and please forgive me. Instead I hear a bunch of excuses and blame placement. I didn't choose the cult, she did. I didn't choose the JZK belief system, my sister did. I didn't place this belief system on her life, she placed it on mine. What she has done is not right and she will be getting a free pass if she is not accountable for her behavior. This one was a line crosser because I had a great deal of faith in my sister's integrity. That is now gone. She needs to fix it not me.

Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

I guess I'm just a poor writer.

Watcha says she spent about $100,000 of HER money on RSE.

I am saying that my sister took about $80,000 of MY money and I think RSE had everything to do with it and my sister chose RSE and my sister chose to do what she did and you have to be accountable for your choices.

See the difference?

Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree. I've said the same thing, patiently and repeatedly. I don't deny that what your sister did is wrong. Or what JZ does is wrong. I agree with that.

What you don't seem to want to hear, is that YOU have a choice. The injustice that you experienced is something that you can carry anger and a desire for revenge in the name of accountability (which is how it comes across to me), or you can accept that your sister may NEVER agree with your viewpoint. If she's an RSE lifer, that is the case.

Nowhere did I say it's okay that she spent your money. I don't believe that it is. It's an awful thing that she did to you. But you are spending your emotions in destructive anger. I also suggested that you find a more positive way to use that energy. IMO, you need to heal, just like the rest of us, from how we were negatively impacted by that cult - directly or indirectly.

Educate people about your experience, so help warn them to avoid a similar fate. Count the blessings in your life and make the best of those. If you call that cultspeak, I say you are, respectfully, a fool. I don't know of any therapist that would not encourage you to carry such anger and lack of resolve about something that you cannot control.

Leemar, that's key here. What happened was beyond your control. If you had control and you didn't do anything about it, that's another story. But you were (are) a victim of the RSE negative effects.

There are human beings that suffer all sorts of wrong in their lives. You're not alone. Some move forward and make the best of their lives, in SPITE OF the wrongdoing. Others wallow in it, and in doing so, sacrifice themselves in the process.

If you haven't already and I'm assuming you haven't, maybe it would be beneficial for you to get therapy and work through your emotions about this. That does not equate making it "right" that it happened. It makes it so you can find peace with the wrong, so it doesn't eat you alive. There's a huge difference.

Some people accuse the founders of this forum of being angry, negative, victims. Perhaps some are, but the blanket statement that every disgruntled ex-student is that, is not true. It is possible, and it does happen, that a number of people leave cults, see them for what they were, have a right to their anger (as you do), but the dividing line is that they move forward with their lives IN SPITE OF the pain.

This country needs education in its schools (students), mental health professionals, teachers, civic group leaders, universities and legislators, about the reality of cults and their toxic effects. It needs laws to make the accountability for the wrongs that have occurred to many people, easier to obtain.

Perhaps you should take YOUR story to your legislators and find one who is sympathetic. In other countries, this IS happening. It's only a matter of time before it happens here, but it needs to happen with the footwork from people like you and I.

Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

Is this board now telling distraught family members who have lost loved one's to JZ's insanity (or demon possession, take your pick) to...."seek therapy".

That's simply unbelievable. And fairly disgusting.

Good Lord....you're right, this has turned into just another high school clique.

I believe I'm about done here. Go ahead and celebrate.

Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

LEEMAR;

I tried to email you, but it won't let me. I may be able to locate your sister for you. I live here in Yelm and have resources these guys don't.

My email addy is: tyger2talk@yahoo.com

Happy New Year;
Tyger

Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

I'm a conservative. I studied economics. I don't believe in big government. Government should provide a stable currency, which they do, government should provide a national defense, which they do and government should provide for law enforcement, which they do. Beyond that, I think you are pretty much on your own and that is the way it should be. It's a zero sum game, sometimes unfortunately, but markets are pretty efficient.

Last thing I want to see is the government engaging in legislation to save a few one percenters from themselves. Because, legislation always equals enforcement, and the enforcement is what costs the big money and I would prefer that money be in my pocket. Not a government agency's.

Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

I express sympathy for you, LEEMAR, though my sympathy is tempered with a little bit of annoyance...
This site exists for, firstly, ex-RSE students, secondly, their family members, thirdly, other friends and loved ones, or prospective students (as a deterent).
To state that all ex-RSE students are more foolish, suggestible or gullible, and less intelligent, than other people is a) tactless and b) wrong...
You say you studied economics...are you familiar with all of the sales techniques available, some of which are adopted by skillful con-artists...
Ever bought something and then regretted it? Do you always read the Consumer Reports before making a major purchase? And by the way, that is what I did, coming to this site when I considered joining RSE. This is the Consumer Report for RSE.
Can you not see the carrot that was dangled in front of the students??? The skill with which it was made to seem like such a prize?
No understanding from you, of the way in which they were then, upon joining, made to feel that their lives would end if they left?
And, once they had been there long enough, how even in the face of serious doubt or disillusionment, they might have stayed, because their entire social and work lives became centred on or around the ranch?
Maybe your sister had nothing outside of RSE to which she could feel compelled to return?
And, you have not read enough here, or you would know that Marie is not "guilty" of hurting loved ones through her affilitation with RSE, but is, like yourself, a family member on the outside, who has had to endure some pretty serious flack from her own sister.

Re: OK so maybe JZ is a sociopath - from the White Book

Leemar said, "Last thing I want to see is the government engaging in legislation to save a few one percenters from themselves."

Wow.

So, they deserve their ill fate ?

That's the attitude that Ramtha and JZ have about the people that died in the tsunami.

If it takes legislation, and education, to stop those precious one percenters, like the youth of our society, who are ill prepared to recognize mind control tactics, then I hope it comes about in this country.

I'm not for big government, either. It's not my preference. But, people are. Lives matter.

The schools educate very, very young children about sexually related diseases with taxpayer dollars, but they don't educate them about brainwashing, coercive persuasion, and mind control. Not okay. Not at any percent.