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Re: psychology of religious genius

"The prophet is a dangerous person due the apparent power and immense influence he or she wields. Ancient tribes, including the Hebrews stoned or killed "false prophets" for this reason."

I like your points, L.I.S. It's interesting to see a psychologist go off occassionally, esp. when tired...!

To swing back to the initation of this thread, 'religious genius' & prophets in ancient times, 'Wise Men' aka prophets kept counsel to Kings - these were astronomer-astrologers, understanding the high degree of math/calculations behind the movement of the stars. This is how astrology was born and fostered - it was an advanced science at that time. Used, because it was all they had, and somehow, something about it worked.

PBS has a show on regarding the birth of Christ and the Three Wise Men - again, thought to be Babylonian astronomers, who knew in advance that a great being was about to be born. Their preparations to Bethlehem were made months in advance of their journey. They may have also known potent delineations of latitude/longitude.

The show was interesting in how it showed that Dec 25 may not have been the actual date, with year also in question.

Although not on the show, the visitation by the Wise Men, may have designated Christ as 'the one' but also saved him from the infanticide, due to their knowledge. Who knows? Without them, there may not have been a Christ, at all, and by default, Catholic Church. Now isn't that something to ponder???

Anyway, just some continuing thoughts.

Re: psychology of religious genius

True,Frog Prince...but I thought they were Zoroastrian priests, those three wise men, "Magi".
And what about the brilliant star in the heavens, directly over the humble manger birthplace?
Or reported sightings of angels by shepperds in the fields?
All sorts of miraculous events.
But it seems fairly certain that Christ's birthday was not December 25th. Early Christians, in trying to sell Christianity to the Pagans, arranged for all key events to coincide with existing pagan festivals - Christmas is "Yule", the Winter Soltice.
In one of the Gospels (will have to look up which one) it states that Christ was born "under the sign of the fish"...that would be Pisces, and even allowing for precesion and calendrical differences, that would put his actual birthday in February or March.
Happy yuletide and twelfth night time, Frog Prince.

Re: psychology of religious genius

Impish mischevious question...
were 'angels' sighted, actually Orbs????
See new book by Master ML.

Re: psychology of religious genius

"I am not narcissistic, Joe. I tend to take more interest in, and spend more time focussing on, others"

Lost,
No reason to get defensive. I am referring to "that world" you describe. How you function in it or whether you identify with it, I have no clue. However, when you say "I am not narcissistic" you might be only person on the planet who is not!

We all function through narcissistic traits. These traits become disorders [Axis 2 in shrinkology] when they dominate our character at the exclusion of a more Protean or flexible self that acts appropriately in diverse situations. Iow, a health person knows when to sacrifice their narcissism and when not to. JZ is one example who has it all backwards and upside down. She has the "disorder", imo.

RSE and similar groups tap a recruit's narcissism and then inflate it.

Re: psychology of religious genius

PS:
re: "RSE and similar groups tap a recruit's narcissism and then inflate it."
may be too simplistic.

Sometimes this is the case, but more often the culting process works like this:

Ego inflation increases narcissim because you as truth seeker with incredible karma in this lifetime found the "best" spiritual thing and guru on the planet. The lead narcissist-guru then taps that new ego and continually drains it creating a dependency on the guru's narcissism.

For example, RSE students will defend JZ in the most bizarre ways to protect this co-dependency: "I am great because JZ/Ramtha is great and I believe in her/him."

Re: psychology of religious genius

frog prince:
We have no idea how many magi there were. Matthew's Gospel [ch 2] does not specify, only gives us 3 types of gift. Magi can be astologers, wise men, or philosophers but certainly no indication that they were "we three Kings of Orient are". My Catholic pastor teaches [all priests know this from seminary]the same thing. He also mentions that Dec 25 is a Christian convention [not merely an invention] from the 3rd century that reflects popular folk religion about the 'festival of lights'.

To properly interpret this 'convention,' the Gospel [good news] reveals that Christ was born and died to defeat the "deepest darkness" or death symbolized by the shortest day of the year. That is what Christians celebrate, the mystery of Christ born, Christ dying, Christ resurrected and in doing so defeated sin and death showing us the "way",
not that Px was born on Dec 25.

Of course, that is if you believe that he was born at all

Most scholars interpret Luke's story of the shepherds to indicate the birth of Christ was probably in spring or summer.

When criticizing any faith be careful not to create a straw man argument in your mind by "fundamentalizing" the religion, then trying to tear it down. I made this mistake over thirty years ago by overly simplifying "Hinduism." Hindu scholarship knocked me on my a##.

Re: psychology of religious genius

Joe - I didn't think I was criticizing the faith of Christianity, or building a straw man to burn. It would seem that the magi were very learned men - priests or higher in Babylonia. What I was suggesting was that Christianity may not have come about if astronomy-astrology of the time had not been synergistically involved. So, point being is that what you were putting down as myth (moon influences, astrology, et al) may have been instrumental in bringing about that which you do believe in, Catholicism. No value judgment. That the Z. priests were respected by Kings, brought gold that allowed the holy family to leave, escape the fate of Jesus' death as part of the infanticide.. it is an interesting possibility. Acknowledgment of Christ's birth & 'birth star' if you will (important in Vedic astrology btw) by existing religious authority of the time recognized the emergence of Christianity.

So, Theoretically - New Age beliefs (which we don't believe in, mostly ) COULD lead to a time of spiritual belief structure that we DO believe in.

Out of what we don't hold to be true, comes something we hold as Truth. I find that something to contemplate, for at least a few days. It gives tolerance a better chance.

Re: psychology of religious genius

The Culture of Narcisism was a pretty good book (by, I think, Irving Lashman)...
Axis whatever...I still would like you to look at the study I mentioned, Joe, which does call into question DSM itself, and modern treatment methods, and, in fact, the whole "Medical Model" of Psychotherapy (which I did study). Not proving so very helpful to those we wish to help. And one study is as valid or invalid as another. That was my point.
As to "New Age" thought...I don't think I can be classified as a "New Ager"...more of an Ancient Ager.
I am a big fan of what Frog Prince mentioned...tolerance.
But you can't rewrite History, and call something other than it was, or, you can if you want, but I won't buy it (and yes, I know what Christians celebrate at Christmas and to Christians the actual placement of the day is not so important now); and what the decision by Church FATHERS (they had dispensed with the concept of women's calling to the ministry) way back when with respect to the placement of many Holy days was, was a SALES JOB. NOthing personal, Joe.
I love Christmas/Yule...including all its Pagan trappings...mistletoe, holy, Carols, Christmas trees and so on. What I am driving at is that it could be seen as an example of tolerance and accomodation by the early Christians. In contrast to the slaughter of the Druids, the Cathars, the "witches" who were simply naturopathic healers, and at times, the Jews and the Moslems of old, or the Catholics by the Protestants, or the Protestants by the Catholics.
I would never argue with anybody about the Divinity of Christ. It is only the Church I have a quarrel with - not a particularly bitter quarrel, at that. And, well meaning as many Church institutions are, I don't think they have now, or ever had, got it right. Sorry. That is my own opinion...not trying to foist it on yah!
Also in my opinion, JZ/RAMTHA is not DIVINE. And none of the students so far have stuck me as a Christ. But I like to hope that any of us, including them, could learn to behave as one.

Re: psychology of religious genius

frog prince.
When I wrote
"When criticizing any faith be careful not to create a straw man argument in your mind by "fundamentalizing" the religion, then trying to tear it down. I made this mistake over thirty years ago by overly simplifying "Hinduism." Hindu scholarship knocked me on my a##." I mean it as a general, to all statement---not meaning to pcik on you---sorry for the confusion.

Basically, I agree with you. I've indicated this before, but as an "artist" I view all religious myth and ritual [including my Catholic ones] as essentially an aesthetic impulse acting through a deep human need to make sense of an incredible and seemingly improbable mystery that envelopes us. It helps however to not merely speculate about what another religion of cult teaches but understand it in context.

I believe it was Robert Frost who penned this prayer:

"Lord, if you will forgive all the little jokes I have played on Thee, I will forgive the great big one You have played on me."

Re: psychology of religious genius

Lost in space,

"Sales job"? Interesting choice of words. Think back if we can to that time when say the Magyars [my people] as a group converted to Christinaity under their pagan King [later Saint] Steven in the 10th century. many [not all] folk rituals and beliefs came on board then that the church absorbed and reconciled. It could also be an accomodation--the "sales job" is always about that Jewish rabbi that was crucified and allegedly resurrected and ascended. The "church" after all is nothing more than the people as the "body of christ" aligned with the Gospel. The rest is habitat and decoration.

But thanks for bringing this back to point.
"Also in my opinion, JZ/RAMTHA is not DIVINE. And none of the students so far have stuck me as a Christ. But I like to hope that any of us, including them, could learn to behave as one."

Divinity is devalued by cults that redefine that term to fit their needs. RSE and JZ do fail utterly in the claim to divinize human beings, but they have clumsily succeeded in reducing the divine to a crass human state.

So, as far as religious genius goes, it helps to have some standard for evaluation, not merely "my opinion."

My career and hobby since leaving Prophet's cult has been an attempt to establish that standard. If there were no reliable value system for human behavior in groups or for evaluating "prophets", then EMF is just another answer blowing in the winds equal in value to ramtha's bad breath.

Re: psychology of religious genius

I was taught that Saint Steven was a great and wise man...was not thinking about Saint Steven at all...he didn't participate in the selective pruning of what we currently call the Bible...nor have I heard he was oppressive to those who did not share his beliefs.
And my comments on early Christianity should not be taken as a blanket ****ation of modern Christians of any stripe.
Actually, interesting that I had heard of Saint Steven, the Protestant Church in which I was raised had no Saints.
Because I wanted to understand about Saints, I went on "Beliefnet" and for a while, was e-mailed "Saint of the Day" and "Angel of the Day"...I recommend this as a means of understanding Catholicism (if not adopting it) for people who know little about it.
My purpose is to understand all faiths (including RSE, a business, yes, but also I think it could be defined as a faith)because with understanding comes Peace, whereas, ignorance can lead to fear, hatred, or crime.

Re: psychology of religious genius

As an amusing 'nonsequiteur', when I went to see the movie "The DaVinci Code", just at the point where the highly controversial theory about Mary Magdalene was expounded, the projector broke down...there was tense silence for a couple of minutes...then, a guy sitting a few seats over from me said "It's the Christians!!". Everybody in that whole theatre laughed, Moslems, Jews, Atheists, Wiccans, Buddhists, Daoists, Hindus,and yes, Christians.