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Re: DEBATE: Global Warming

so, i posted similarly in Tygers Al Gore thread, but i'll reitterate.

I believe absolutely that global warming is occuring, and I plan on devoting a good chunk of my life to help prevent it.

I think it's really really important to distinguish between JZ/R's claims, and what actual scientists claim. Not just about climate change. About everything. You're letting JZ win in a totally different way if you reject every word she said so strongly that you forget that some of what she says is based on truth.

What i mean is, JZ takes things that are either true, or have a chance of being true (global warming, reincarnation, naturapathic healing, etc) and exploits the **** out of them. but that doesn;t mean that nothing about them is true. lots of eastern medicine is really valid. just because JZ tried to get Jeff to self heal his way out of AIDS and it couldn't work doesn't mean that no one can self heal about anything. that's one of the big logical fallacies. Tyger, i feel, is exploiting logical fallacies just as badly as JZ is. comparing her version global warming to Al Gore's is like comparing a parent that beats their kid up for eating sweets before dinner to a parent who gives their kid a time out for the same offense.

JZ takes the science behind global warming and blends it with copious amounts of babble and nonsense that have no backing. A huge huge aspect of science is PEER REVIEWED papers, and none of Ramtha's "studies" have ever been perr reviewed that i know of.

there is, however, LOTS AND LOTS of peer reviewed work that says that humans are largely contributing to the phenomenon of climate change and that the consequences could cause a lot of suffering. when i'm less tired i will look up some of this info. but Tyger can drop the words "junk science" as much as he wants to; it won't change the fact that thousands of scientists who are not dolts, but whp are highly respected and who do lots of original, perr reviewed work, have many reasons to believe that we are responsible for climate change. i know there is evidence to support the contrary position as well. that's fine. but to just blow all claims that we are making global wamring off as "junk science" is a poor scape goat.

Re: DEBATE: Global Warming

"peer reviewed" is a joke to anyone who knows what the term means and has an ounce of sense.

Re: DEBATE: Global Warming

And maybe such a poor scape goat is just a way not to take our own
responsibilities, like not bother recycling or driving high fuel
consuming vehicles or driving "recreative" vehicles just for the
fun of it or saving energy or using less poluting forms of energy or composting organic matter or having
responsible consuming habits...

Re: DEBATE: Global Warming

".......and....and...and maybe" Will you stop already...history is self-evident.

Re: DEBATE: Global Warming

Big smile

Re: DEBATE: Global Warming

I recently received an email from a friend urging me to sign an emergency petition
“trying to save the crucial climate change talks in Bali.
When I referred back some alternative scientific studies that questioned Al Gores “science’
She immediately wrote back asking…
“Wouldn't you like a clean, unpolluted creek with healthy fishes?
Rain that is not acid? Ocean that are clean etc etc.......?
Now my integrity was in question because I offered an alternative source of information....
I have no doubt that humanity plays a positive or negative role on our beautiful planet,
and on EMF...!
And that global warming "Or is it Gaia warning?"
is indeed a fact…
but I am open to looking into alternative scientific facts..!
dark chuckle..

And Yes.. We do recycle,
but I do not..and will not... share chocolate.

In the mean time..

I did a little more research tonight and found this...

Khabibullo Ismailovich Abdusamatov seems like a fairly intelligent chap….
Just to pronounce his name takes a PHD..
Chuckle..

This is his view…

David.

**********************

Khabibullo is the supervisor of the Astrometria project of the Russian section of the International Space Station and a researcher at the laboratory of solar physics at the Saint Petersburg-based Pulkovo Observatory of the Russian Academy of Sciences.
He is an outspoken global warming skeptic.
Abdusamatov claims that global warming results not from the emission of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, but from an unusually high level of solar radiation and a lengthy - almost throughout the last century - growth in its intensity.. This view contradicts the scientific consensus on climate change. Abdusamatov also contends that even the natural greenhouse effect does not exist, stating "Ascribing 'greenhouse' effect properties to the Earth's atmosphere is not scientifically substantiated. He further states that "Heated greenhouse gases, which become lighter as a result of expansion, ascend to the atmosphere only to give the absorbed heat away.
" The latter statement contradicts measurements of the chemical composition of the atmosphere, while the former violates Fourier's law of heat conduction.

From.. Wikipedia link…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khabibullo_Abdusamatov

*********************************

Here is an article from New Scientist 2001.


Mars could be undergoing major global warming
Mars is undergoing global warming that could profoundly change the planet's climate in a few thousand years, new data suggests.
High-resolution images taken by NASA's Mars Global Surveyor show that the permanent south polar "ice" cap shrank significantly between two successive Martian summers - a period roughly corresponding to two Earth years. If the trend continues at the same rate and the polar cap is entirely frozen carbon dioxide, "the whole cap would be evaporated in a few thousand years," Mike Caplinger of Malin Space Science Systems told New Scientist.
Journal reference: Science (vol 294, p 2141, 2146)
Link…

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn1660-mars-could-be-undergoing-major-global-warming.html


****************************************


National Geographic News

Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says

Mars's southern polar ice cap, has shrunk in recent years due to planetary warming—similar to what's happening on Earth.

According to one scientist's controversial take, the simultaneous rise in temperatures on Earth and Mars indicates a natural—and not a human—cause for global warming. But the vast majority of experts maintain that humans are responsible for Earth's climate changes and that the Mars phenomenon is mere coincidence.

Link..

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html

Re: DEBATE: Global Warming

David : "but I do not..and will not... share chocolate."

If the chocolate comes from fair trade market, it's OK

Wink

Re: DEBATE: Global Warming

Druid...

Can you re-send your email to me?
my computer decided to erase four days of Emails...

I suspect..
Bad karma for not sharing my chocolate...

David

Re: DEBATE: Global Warming

David;

But EVERYONE KNOWS that it's those dastardly Republicans Bush and Cheney and Halliburton and CORPORATE GREED!!!! (hysteria takes over) and ...VIETNAAAAAM....and all that Nazi-like stuff that Republicans do that is melting the ice caps on Mars. Earth isn't enough for them....oh no. They made a real estate deal with the aliens (source: Ramtha the Enebriated One) and are killing Mars for CORPORATE GREEEEEEED, man......oh, and VIETNAAAAAAM too.

All true. All "science". Like evolution, you know. "Real science". Hey can someone come and shovel my driveway....all this global warming dumped a bunch of snow on it.

Re: DEBATE: Global Warming

Personally, I’ve been a critic of limiting one’s viewpoints based solely on the results of “peer reviews”. I’ve commented on this in at least one post in the past. Since this topic has come up again, I thought I’d share some information for those who care to read it.

The flaws of “peer review”….

http://www.ama-assn.org/public/peer/7_13_94/pv3089x.htm

http://www.nature.com/nature/peerreview/debate/nature05006.html

http://www.rangelmd.com/2005/07/medical-professions-dirty-little.html

http://www.semmelweis.org/Acrobat/article_sham%20i%20am.pdf

Re: DEBATE: Global Warming

and....for those interested.......

With regard to peer reviews: Critics also make the point that peer review not only fails to prevent the publication of flawed research but also permits the publication of research that is fraudulent. This leads into the topic of “ghost writers” for someone’s agenda.

CBC Marketplace: Inside the business of medical ghostwriting
Medical ghostwriting: you may not have heard of it, but you'll probably want to .www.cbc.ca/consumers/market/files/health/ghostwriting/


Revealed: how drug firms 'hoodwink' medical journals | UK News ...
Hundreds of articles in medical journals claiming to be written by academics or doctors have been penned by ghostwriters in the pay of drug companiesobserver.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1101680,00.html

Ghostwriter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
With medical ghostwriting, pharmaceutical companies pay ghostwriters to produce papers in medical or scientific journals on the outcomes of new medications.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostwriter


Are Medical Journals Haunted by "Ghost Writers"? : Bio Job Blog
Fellow blogger, Jacob Goldstein, over at the WSJ Health Blog posted a story today about a prominent hypertension researcher who was approached by a me.www.biojobblog.com/2007/11/articles/ideas-and-indulgences/are-medical-journals-haunted-by-ghost-writers/

Re: DEBATE: Global Warming

Tyger- are you saying you don't believe in evolution? I'm not necessarily saying "Omigod he doesn't even believe in evolution!!!", In just wasn't exactly sure who you were making fun of.

The reason I ask is because if you don't beleive in evolution, then our views are so fundamentally different that I could'nt even try to debate you on global warming anymore. this probably sounds patronizing, but that's not how i mean it. I just can't have a scientific debate really with someone who doesn't beleive in evolution because we are coming from such fundamentally different views that there is really no point.

Re: DEBATE: Global Warming

The scientific method is based on the ability to measure and then to duplicate that measurement. From that you arrive at a probability that something may or may not be true. In that duplication of a probability is more likely if the same scientist re-does his study therefore you have other scientists try to duplicate his findings i.e. "peer review". To eliminate peer review seems to give license to anyone claiming a probability to proceed without question,witness jz. To claim "belief" in any aspect of science, herein Global Warming, implies "faith". Presently any theory on GW is precisely that, a theory with each theory having it's own probability. So far the only person claiming the ability to see into the future with certainty is ol blubber lips herself. I am supposing that none of you have done actual research or devised your own computer models on GW so in effect you are choosing the data you want to believe in. That is entirely acceptable. Keep in mind that whatever you choose to believe it is at best a "best guess". To claim certainty of a future truth raises other questions.

Re: DEBATE: Global Warming

Bud said, "Keep in mind that whatever you choose to believe it is at best a "best guess". To claim certainty of a future truth raises other questions."

Absolutely.

Remember there was even a time that people believed the Earth was flat ! People were murdered for speaking out that it wasn't flat. Goes to show the degree to which some people need to "believe" in certain viewpoints, too.