Druid wrote: "My partner immediately takes jz's defence saying that s/he knows what s/he's doing and that s/he's doing it on purpose, to reach people like me "

In literature about cult leaders there are "crazy wise" gurus who purportedly teach with "skillful means" [examples: Gurdjieff, Adi Da, Andrew Cohen, Chogyam Trungpa]. iow, they are SOOOO enlightened that everything and anything they do is a potential teaching tool--it is up to the doting devotee to figure out the lesson!

Georg Feuerstein wrote "Holy Madness: The shock tactics and radical teachngs of crazy-wise adepts, holy fools, and rascal gurus" (Arkana, 1990) to explore the craziness and nuances in the antics of teachers that act crazy and immorally to "teach."

Personally, I like the book because it is intelligently presented and well-researched. He does a good job of sorting out the value of craziness with a purpose as opposed to mental illness.

But I tire of excuses for bad behavior among spiritual teachers and so does the author. In the end Feuerstein argues for a "more integrated approach to self-transcendence. This new approach will be sustained by teachers, including holy fools, who place personal growth and integrity above the need to instruct, Reality above traditional fidelity, and compassion and humor above all role playing." [p 259]

It puzzles me however that the author thinks that this could be something "new." Where has he been? Throughout history we find great men and women that taught with integrity and held to Reality above tradition. This is an old virtuous path that seems to evade every generation of new seeker because every generation faces con-artists and flawed madmen posing as enlightened beings.

Virtuous, reality-based living is "boring" to seekers that want to be on the fast track to enlightenment. Perhaps that is why rascal, outrageous gurus were so attractive to some us....

The only thing we have to fear from a jz/r is falling under her orbit of influence. yeah, jz knows what she's doing---she knows she's getting away with her bad behavior and con-game around doting devotees.....

To me, this is a very interesting thread of discussion. I can totally relate to Druid's hesitance to criticise Ramtha. The response to any such criticism is formulaic and comes back to you at the speed of light.
joe sz points out that he tires of excuses for bad behavior among so-called spiritual leaders. Amen to that and there is absolutely no excuse for alcohol abuse as the consequences of alcoholism are devastating. As far as there being great men and women throughout history who "taught with integrity and held to reality" ? I would say maybe yes, but they taught with their actions. Perhaps Ghandi, Mandela, or Sister Therasa to name a few.

It is often considered a bad thing to attack religion because we are told that religion makes men virtuous. I have not really noticed this as I see much hypocracy in organized religion. My own view on organized religion is more like that of the British philospher Bertrand Russell. He regarded it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race. He goes on to say that "I can not, however, deny that religion has made some contributions to civilization. It helped in the early days to fix the calendar, and it caused Egyptian priests to chronicle eclipses with such care that in time they became able to predict them. These two sevices I am prepared to acknowledge, but I do not know of any others". Alright, granted that he is maybe a bit toungue in cheek here but he says much more in "Why I Am Not A Christian, And Other Essays On Religion And Related Subjects". It is hard to argue against Christian principals and of course the 10 commandments, but after all these are mostly just good common sense.

"Fast-track to enlightenment" indeed. What to do about these "con-artists and flawed madmen" as joe sz calls them? Well, we used to burn witches at the stake but I suppose civilization has made some progress. What do we do about our loved ones who are in pain and cognitively dis-advantaged because of this? Time and its vital ally, timing, will no doubt decide the matter but one grows impatient.

Willie, I read "Why I am not a Christian" by Bertrand Russell -- is it 35 years ago? Good essays, but cynical as you indicated.

"As far as there being great men and women throughout history who "taught with integrity and held to reality" ? I would say maybe yes, but they taught with their actions. Perhaps Ghandi, Mandela, or Sister Therasa to name a few."

I wan not thinking of famous people but I would name Confucius as one example....I am referring to those hard-working good teachers and prfessionals who are relatively anonoymous by national or world standards, folks that act like "great men and women" according to the standard that Feuerstein mentions. We've all met people like that, people who do not need awards or a cult following.

"What to do about these "con-artists and flawed madmen" as joe sz calls them? Well, we used to burn witches at the stake but I suppose civilization has made some progress. What do we do about our loved ones who are in pain and cognitively dis-advantaged because of this? Time and its vital ally, timing, will no doubt decide the matter but one grows impatient."

Recall that statement by Edmund Burke?: "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."
For me it is not about "time" or "timing" but more about the slow steady grind of education and actively exposing lies and evil in a civil way.

btw, Hope all of you reading this had a great Thanksgiving--I was horsebackriding in the Colorado Mountains with my 17 year old daughter and her friend on that day--no turkeys in sight!

Again very interesting. Love the Edmund Burke quote about good men doing nothing. I do not want to be guilty of filling this forum up with nothing but quotes but that reminded me of Martin Luther King who said "In the end we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends".

So, therefore something must be done and I really do not like JOE SZ's (user name is now upper case) solution of a "slow steady grind of education and actively exposing lies and evil in a civil way". I suppose I must acknowledge that it is the best way as we do not have another alternative short of burning at the stake. I feel the same way about capitalism. I hate its excesses and wastefulness but it is no doubt the best system yet devised.

Not sure if that is any consolation to Druid but I wish you luck as I am having similar problems with a relative though it is not my spouse. Did I read somewhere on this forum something about a class action suit?

Joe,
Maybe you really read it 35 Thousand years ago!!
haha! Just a little light hearted humor

Hope you enjoyed the Rockies over thanksgiving.
Will be headed home there in a few weeks doing the same.

Happy Thanksgiving to all who venture into this site
and read all the sharing...

See&E