Ha! This direct Ramtha quote is so appropriate to life after Ramtha. Everything is better. Your mind is free to pursue whatever it wants to pursue (remember the things that interested you before the school? You'll find them again.) Your music is better and no longer that same old same old goofy stuff found playing at the ranch. Your books are better and related to YOUR interests and not to JZ's. You actually go into a bookstore (not the Annex) and are attracted to YOUR stuff. You can stop pretending that you are reading and understanding all those physics/brain/conspiracy books that you thought you had to read and understand. YOU DON'T! You stop spending your money on R/JZ land. You start spending your money on things that are important to YOU! You have time. You actually HAVE money now. It is such a relief to lay down that enormous burden of thinking you have to live the R/JZ/RSE way.

As others have posted, there isn't one thing offered in that school that you can't find online or in books for FREE.

If you are suffering withdrawal and really must have the Days To Come/alien points of view, try zetatalk.com or alliesofhumanity.org, or the horizon project (these sites have diametrically opposed viewpoints. Very fascinating stuff and like a good horror movie meant to frighten. But are you sufficiently vaccinated by exposure to RSE nonsense not to fall for them? However, at least they don't charge money to scare you!)

If you want to remote view, you can try out any number of the established remote viewer sites. They offer courses where you allegedly can REALLY learn to remote view from people who profess some actual skill at it. They probably charge something, but I'm willing to bet they don't insinuate that you must give up your family, spouse or significant other to show your dedication to the teachings.

If you want conspiracy theories, how to levitate, increase your focus, develop your psychic ability...just google it. You'll find hundreds of sites. Save your money and don't go to RSE.

If you want fabulous wealth, stop giving your money to RSE and start looking for PPTTE that actually deliver what they promise. You won't find it in Yelm.

But actually for most people, fabulous wealth, DTC and remote viewing... if you think about it... were never our thoughts before we entered the school. They were introduced thoughts that we then downloaded and ran with. Why did we do that? It is so crazy.

Post-RSE I found my mind was cluttered with this nonsense. My house is filled to the brim with clutter and nonsense too. Things I was saving because I might need them in the DTC fill the house to overflowing. To say nothing of wheat in buckets in my garage that is twenty years old. What am I going to do with all that wheat? What would I have done with it should I have needed it? I don't know how to make bread from wheat. You can grow it by throwing it on the ground (learned this when a bucket spilled), but what then? I am not really prepared for anything, just cluttered with everything.

When I opened my eyes and realized what I had allowed to happen in my life over twenty years, I was so very very sad. All that wasted time, effort, and life force gone. I looked at it and realized that everything I had done up to this day was gone, and all I had to show for it was clutter. But ever so gradually, it's becoming all good. I am almost grateful that I came through the school now, with this new clearer understanding of myself. I realize that I had a lot of vulnerabilities and predispositions that allowed me to get caught up in RSE. I think, I hope that I have grown some, and that I won't be so likely to fall for "fantastic realism" again when it presents itself in a new disguise. I hope I have become a skeptic with new eyes.

I am not looking up to anyone for answers anymore. I look at all gurus/religious figures, people who have the answers, with a jaundiced eye. Now, I know that all the answers are within me, to follow my own heart. Those hanging on R/JZ's every word, waiting for codes to save them, are doomed to an inauthentic life, and will never truly find themselves. They are lost. Those of us who have left RSE are the found ones. We have found our true selves. It might be painful and sad, and a heartbreaking realization at first...we might stumble about, but that is only at first.

That we have broken free...is the best most precious gift ever...the gift of ourselves to ourselves.

sifting for truth. Your post rates a "sticky", I think!

In 1987 I exit counseled a man, an engineer who was about to leave his wife and two teenage children to join the Eliz Prophet cult then in Calif. It was a low budget intervention, just the wife and I waiting in the kitchen to surpirse this man when he came home from work. He felt "ambushed" by me but he eventually relaxed and sat down and agreed to talk with me.

He listened, we talked and I shared my "magic bag" of video stuff for several days, and then he was "out." We even had a beer to celebrate--he had not had a drink in the 2 years he followed the cult teachings [the leader was having booze on the sly, as I was able to show him].

20 years later this year I got a surprise email from his wife. They are still married and doing well, both kid are grown and doing well also, but she was concerned about husband's dabbling for years with the same sites you mentioned, esp zetatalk.com:

"If you are suffering withdrawal and really must have the Days To Come/alien points of view, try zetatalk.com or alliesofhumanity.org, or the horizon project (these sites have diametrically opposed viewpoints. Very fascinating stuff and like a good horror movie meant to frighten. But are you sufficiently vaccinated by exposure to RSE nonsense not to fall for them? However, at least they don't charge money to scare you!)"

Apparently, he still had this yearning for the "fringes of reason" crowd as a personal interest, but the wife said he seemed content with his life otherwise, he was not spending money on it or going to any "groups", and they were happy as a couple.

I offer this story because it confirms your insight that weird, edgy beliefs do not necessarily mean that one will join another cult.

For 20 years he sustained the basic reason for the exit intervention: It was about him regaining and maintaining a locus of control and not giving it over to an elitist, possibly deceitful group or leader.

Joe

Sifting- that is one of the best, succinct posts I have seen. it sums it up so well.

As for the copious amounts of wheat , grow wheatgrass. you can do it in pots, small trays, packed tight with a hydroponic media. Make wheatgrass 'shots' by cutting a small amount with scissors, put it in an juicer (manual press works too). Add a bit of ginger for zing..

No way better to start your day. The health benefits are amazing - cleanses your blood, blast of Vit C, alkalizes your system. Drink all the coffee you want after that, but you won't need to.

If you have that much wheat... start a business growing it! If you really don't know what I am talking about, go to a Jamba Juice & ask for a shot.

Joe...
When R. started in with the DTC in the late 80's, I needed to find corroborating evidence. It was just too much to believe outright in what was being told...elimination of money, government taking over the population, alien invasion, war in the skies, earthquakes, drought, etc. I thought that if I could find others saying some of the same things that it would lend some confirmation. I searched, at some point followed a link, found zetatalk and was charmed so to speak. However, I was not sold. It was more like reading a science fiction novel developing in realtime, and I grew up reading science fiction. Neither believing nor disbelieving, I just read each new post avidly, holding any decision about the reality of it all in abeyance. Is R. right? Is zetatalk right? Is neither of them right? Am I just anxious about the future in general and need an outlet for that anxiety? Do I just need a good story and a good story is hard to find these days?

Now, I think that a person's willingness to add their belief to R. or any of these other areas purporting to 'know' what is to come, is a measure of a couple of things. First, there is the disconnect between what people are being told, and in what people see. I think I read in a recent poll that about 70% of people believe that aliens have visited earth. Otherwise, what are you to make of crop circles, Nazga lines, pyramids, sightings of space ships, tales of abduction, the stories in clay tablets of interactions with ancient gods, photos of cities buried in the seabed, etc.? There is the sense that you are not being told the truth, and darn it, you want to know the truth. Someone who can tie all that into a coherent explanation is going to be listened to. (for awhile at least)

Second, some of us, I would say many of us involved with RSE, have had experiences of the paranormal that we are at a loss to explain. So we go searching. (And we are vulnerable to good explanations even if they come from a big guy who is 35,000 years old.) If you are just an ordinary person trying to explain extraordinary personal experiences of the paranormal, then it is not such a big leap to believe in a channeled spirit. (it's more like a short hop.) Such a paranormal experience is just not possible to explain to anyone who has not experienced it. And you fear others condemnation were you to even try. You don't try. But the person experiencing it knows they are not crazy, knows they can't explain it, and doesn't have a clue how to reconcile it. It seems like a spiritual/psychic experience, but in retrospect, could be just the first gleanings of humans developing telepathic ability misinterpreted.

Put the above two conditions together and you have a person who wants to know what is going on with themselves and their world. Such a person is not stupid, values their intelligence, is actually highly intuitive, vulnerable, looking for answers. Does this adequately describe an RSE student to two? I can completely understand why the guy you had the intervention with is still reading zetatalk. There is a real pull to 'know'. (Ah, that difference between believing in something and knowing it.) Once you know that telepathy is real, if you have experienced it, even if it is not consistent (especially if it is not consistent), then the door is opened to all manner of channeled information whether it is from disembodied spirits, aliens, gods, angels, devils, 35000 yr old warriors or Jesus himself. This period of sorting out is absolutely maddening to ones spirit as beliefs are tried on.

Even when your discernment matures a little bit and you pull back from involvement in the above, there is the huge nagging fear that you might be wrong, that you might 'miss the march' and be left on the side of the road while the rest go on to glory. Well, I don't think there is any glory. There is only your maturing spirit. You have to ask yourself the following questions: Who is behind the mask? What is their agenda? Why should you believe them? What do their actions reveal over time? Is their message consistent? Are their actions congruent with their message? What are they getting from keeping you involved? There is what they are showing you and there is what they are not showing you. What are they not showing you? What is your agenda in relating to them? What are you needing/getting from this experience? Are there red flags that you are ignoring? Why are you ignoring them? Would you have to question your involvement now? Are you too highly invested?

We go into these experiences with deep hope and trust, but we should be more discerning. For an exploration of the element of trust when faced with an encounter with other worlds, there is an absolutely wonderful book The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell that I came upon shortly after I decided to break with the school. It really cemented that decision for me in that it allowed me to see the hidden agenda. To quote the back cover... it "leaves deep cracks in our beliefs, our prejudices, and our blinders." So whether we think we're dealing with aliens or channelled spirits, whether we perceive them as reality or fakery, it is the blinders that we need to remove to see again with clarity.

You have certainly described the RSE member that I live with. He is an intelligent man who is interested in knowing the answers, I just feel a lot of what he believes to be true is a different lie to the mainstream one. The internet can be a very dangerous place, we think we are reading the truth, the source seems believable, we watch videos that ring true, etc etc. But being in the television and film industry I question everything I see on screen, computer or otherwise.

Sometimes it feels like my partner believes every conspiracy theory going around. Thats probably unkind but I am a total skeptic and to be perfectly honest if something doesn't effect my life or I don't feel I have the motivation to change it (ie if the Illuminati exists could I be bothered trying to do something about it)then I'm not really interested.

It's this difference between myself and my partner that makes him a member of RSE. He want's answers, I don't, so he looks for them and if someone is giving him answers that ring true then he listens. I am happy living my life, changing the things that I can but not worrying about the things that I can't. So what if there are a bunch of aliens controlling George W. I live in Australia, I don't care and even if I did, would I do something about it - NO, and thats the irony what are all these ramsters doing with their knowledge - changing the world? Alerting people to the real truth? NO so what is the point?

Sifting and Aussiegirl,
Good points. Lots of questions.
My observations: I get your point re paranormal phenomena Aussi, but no one can be a "total skeptic". We would be frozen in doubt and lack of trust. Being a skilled skeptic is another matter altogether, iow, knowing what to challenge and how to go about it. Some things are just a waste of time to test, eg if someone tells you what they did on Mars yesterday. That may be of interest to a psychiatrist but a skeptic should only smile.

Skeptics need testible evidence to function. If RSE will not allow proper testing of the evidence it claims to have, then it is useless and RSE remains a useless enterprise for fools of faith in the occult.

I have come to see that all efforts in occult magic and "knowledge" are yearnings for power and control over our destiny, fortune, health---all that increases the quality of life. We want to know what the Illuminati or aliens are doing because we feel threatened by them, and subconsciously we want to be like them --in control of human destiny. All occultists, and maybe all of us, want a piece of that power, to wave a magic wand or magic word over reality to change it. That is why Disney films and Harry Potter are such a powerful draw.

If we have a "picture" of the hidden and observable reality around us, we feel more secure, even if that picture is fantasy.

Those whose picture matches reality are the ones most likely to succeed in living and self-awareness. We got to the moon and back using real physics, not by wearing blindfolds while sucking and blowing quantum dioxide.....

I learn much from u Joe, thanx for your input.

I agree Aussie Girl, I also focus on what I can do and don't waste my energy on what I can't do. I share a similar observation on my ex. He is very focussed on preparing for the end of the world and on defending himself and defending his secret home and secret food. He's got a gun! But when I talk to him about protecting our environment and stopping climate change, and makes excuses for not taking action and for continuing to live in a lifestyle which harms the planet. He's not interested in taking responsibility, and also blames the future world changes on something else. I do believe there is a good chance our Earth could experience some extreme conditions due to climate change that we have created. Knowing that we caused it is empowering because we can do something about it and reduce the impact of climate change. But my ex does not see it this way. I think he has disempowered himself by believing he has nothing to do with the state of the world, but he believes he has empowered himself by preparing for the damage to the Earth, ironically that he in part caused.

VP

What is PPTTE, what does that acrynom stand for.
thanks

people, places, things, times, and events

a "ramther" quote

" "I do believe there is a good chance our Earth could experience some extreme conditions due to climate change that we have created. Knowing that we caused it is empowering because we can do something about it and reduce the impact of climate change. ""

Exactly. We can still change things, not by obsessively walking and muttering a list or walking around blindfolded, but by ACTION. Do you think he has "accepted" what JZasR has said about Days to Come,(yet again) and therefore, this demonstrates that we "do NOT create our reality?" That's the hypocrisy. To teach that we do create our own reality via our thoughts and focus, yet there is nothing anyone can do at all to change things? It makes no sense.

I also believe we, as inhabitants of this world, must change our ways, beginning inside our own homes. Every little bit helps - now is the time to do as much as we can. The earth is "alive," and has undergone changes for eons and will continue to do so. The impact of our presence here, particularly during the "military-industrial age," has left a legacy of poisoning and "heating" our planet. Yet it doesn't make sense, imo, to simply "accept" that something is going to occur because JZasR said so, when JZasR teaches as a basic, "we create our own reality."

If we don't take responsibility and corrective action, neither undergrounds nor foodstores will help anyone - (survival of the fittest - weapons or not!) If some of the students would only understand, survival isn't the only thing. If people survive and keep their old destructive ways, we're still in the same destructive cycle. Nothing has changed, especially us.

I find it more important to take responsibility now, beginning with our transportation habits and fuel sources, and cause no further harm to our beautiful planet. If we ever were able to heal anything it ought be the ground we walk upon.

Great thread! Sifting, you have hit many a nail on the head.


Something Aussiegirl said made me think of a comment Joe made at last year's LARSE meeting. Sorry if I can't put it quite as eloquently, it was about the 'new-age' belief that in order to improve the world we must first improve ourselves. This premise appears to feed into some narcissistic notion that the world revolves only around us. Yet, due to our perfectly human failings, the ever-elusive state of ultimate self-improvement is forever unattainable and therefore, we are absolved of ever taking any meaningful action.


Meanwhile, some very messed up people still manage to do a whole lot of good in this world. How d'you figure that?

littlewiseone, that's what I meant, yes, by 'a common cult prejudice' is that we must "perfect" ourselves before we can improve the world. Once a cult leader inserts this idea [of superhuman self-perfection], the self-improvement part can go on endlessly through endless workshops and rituals and the world merely goes on around you till you die psychologically isolated and socially unperfected!

As far as global warming, this entire topic has been politicized by Algore and Holywood. Yes, we are trashing the planet and causing changes, but global warming is another matter.

The ice cap on mars has been melting too, so the red planet is going through a rapid global warming. Your light bulbs, hot showers, and SUVs are not causing that.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1720024.ece

Joe

Isn't that interesting! I love learning about our planets and astronomical events -wonderful! Many years ago I read in the scientific american magazine, possible ways to inhabit the planet Mars. A few theories had been written about how to create the greenhouse effect on Mars to warm up the freezing planet to make it suitable for humans. Any efforts to change the temperature and atmosphere of Mars (if ever possible logistically, scientifically and financially) could take 300 years!

I'd rather look after the one we've got! Much cheaper.

Global warming –Livestock’s Long Shadow
Media focuses on carbon emissions, which are incredibly significant, but not the whole story. A recent extensive report by the highly conservative United Nations called “Livestock’s Long Shadow” revealed what many vegans already know about climate change, that animal agriculture has a high contribution of greenhouse gas emissions and destruction of our ecosystems. There was no mention of the “v” word in the report, but there was plenty of science behind why animal production (that includes animal body parts and their secretions -meat, milk, eggs) is so costly to the Earth. Animal production causes far more greenhouse gas emissions than plant production and more than the entire world’s transport industry. That is, meat, milk and egg production contributes more to global warming than all of the world’s cars, trucks, buses, trains, ships and aeroplanes put together! How could this be possible? In multiple ways, including carbon dioxide, but mostly from methane.

Methane
The main way that animal production causes greenhouse gas emissions is through methane, that is 5% farts, 95% belching. Methane gas has a global warming effect 24 times greater in potency than carbon dioxide. Livestock account for 25% of the global methane emissions. Global methane levels have tripled what they were 100 years ago, mainly to livestock production. To feed us, there are many, many more animals than there are people and so they contribute much more methane and carbon into the atmosphere and toxic sewage into our waterways than we do.

Carbon Multiplied
Most animal production for meat, milk, leather and eggs requires intensive farming and this is where the carbon cost is multiplied. The energy, oil, transport, storage, water, chemicals required to grow crops to feed animals is multiplied to get the same value for weight. So if it takes 16kg of grain to make 1kg of beef, then beef requires 16 times the energy, water, soil, etc than plants to make it, plus more for the water that the animal drinks and is lost to evaporation. Then you’ve got to transport the animals to slaughter and then to the wholesalers and then to the shops, refrigeration uses huge amounts of energy, whereas grain, does not. Even free-ranging animals that eat grass produced by available rain as opposed to harvested grain, still create huge amounts of methane and carbon dioxide emissions. These animals are also “finished off” by being fattened up with expensive grain before slaughter. The use of large amounts of nitrogen fertilisers is a driving force behind climate change because its essentially a fossil fuel. A whopping two thirds of the world’s grain is used for animal production. Meanwhile, a billion people on the planet are starving because there’s not enough to eat.

Rainforests Disappearing for the Taste of Meat
Brazil can’t get rid of the trees fast enough. Two thirds of central America’s forests have been cleared. Rainforests contain half of all the species of life on Earth, and the future of medicines. A quarter of all medicines that exist today came from the rainforests. They’re burning the forests (the lungs of the Earth) at an ever accelerating rate. They don’t care about selling woodchips for paper, they want land available to meet the world’s meat demand. Some of it goes to grazing cattle. The tree giants of the forests contain all the rich minerals and nutrients and the topsoil is actually quite poor. After the trees are gone, the soil is acidic and nutrient deficient and so after a few short years of grazing cattle, the land becomes a desert. Then more rainforest is destroyed for more land. Most of the land cleared is for growing crops –mainly soy, corn, wheat and barley. But what you don’t hear the media mentioning is what the crops are for. The soy is not grown for greedy tofu loving Japanese people, but for cattle feed to make meat. Almost all of the grain produced is exported to Europe (also Australia) and mainly the USA to feed their factory farmed animals. In short, the Amazon rainforest is being destroyed to make meat, milk and eggs. One hamburger equals one small kitchen size of destroyed rainforest or half a tonne of rainforest. Rainforest destruction also emits large amounts of carbon dioxide contributing to climate change.

Taking Grain from the Poor to Feed the Rich
The people living in South America are poor. So many people are starving, hungry and suffering from nutrient deficiencies because they cannot afford the higher prices offered for their grain supplies by animal exploiters. They cannot afford to eat the grain that is trucked away to feed animals that is then fed to rich people with a taste for calorie rich, fat laden milk, eggs and meat.

Purist, Utopian Thinking
Environmentalists, ethical, conscious consumers and vegans are often accused of being naive, unrealistic, castle in the clouds, purist and Utopian in their thinking and all in all, completely ineffective at any significant positive change for the better. The people who do the criticising are usually the ones who do nothing themselves to contribute to any solutions. They justify their inaction by stating it won’t make a difference. They imagine a black and white world of only two choices –drive an SUV or walk like a cave man. But of course life has many shades of grey, there are many levels of choices in between black and white. One can ride a bike for exercise, take the bus, car pool, drive a small car, drive a family car run on gas or ethanol, drive a diesel car on vegetable oil, drive an electric car, or even drive a hummer on hydrogen! The people that criticise others for trying to make a difference are usually pessimistic by habit and social conditioning and are simply uneducated about the effectiveness of sustainable living choices. The truth is, one person does make a measurable difference.

Forget a Prius, Eat a Falafel!
One person does not have to abandon civilisation in order to be kind to the Earth. It’s not a do or die, all or nothing, black or white choice. There are many choices available at varying levels of affordability and achievability to reach the goals of saving the planet. A family of four may not be able to afford $40,000 to buy an electric hybrid vehicle, but if just one member of the family goes vegan, they would save 50% more greenhouse gas emissions than the car would anyway. A Toyota Prius will save you about a tonne in one year. A vegan diet will save you a tonne and a half. 4 vegans will save 6 tonnes. All our 6 family members including our children and our dogs are vegan. Eating one kilogram of beef is the equivalent of driving your car non-stop for three hours whilst leaving all of the lights on in every room of your house.

Topsoil
Around the world, we are losing our topsoil fast, mostly to animal agriculture. In the last 50 years people have doubled their personal meat intake and dairy intake (irrespective of population growth) because animal products have become extremely cheap and more available. Intensive farming has removed much of the valuable nutrient rich topsoil that nourishes our food crops. Topsoil is only a thin layer of a few inches. Heavy hooves destroy the soil which gets carried away by the wind and in streams out to sea. Masses of topsoil is lost in crop production fed to animals for food. Without adequate topsoil, we can grow nothing, no grass, no crops. Just desert. It will take nature 500 years to 1000 years to replace to topsoil we are destroying for the taste of meat.

Water
Animal production uses much more water to produce than plant crops for food. According to soil and water specialists working with livestock farm advisors, a pound of beef takes 5,214 gallons of water to produce, whereas a pound of tomatoes only takes 23 gallons, or a pound of wheat takes 25 gallons. You could float an American Destroyer on the water required to raise just one steer. Knowing this really puts into perspective the popular recommendations in the media to fix leaky taps and water only at night and turn off the tap while you are brushing your teeth! You could save more water by cutting back your beef intake by just one pound, than if you avoided having any showers for an entire year! (The average person uses 5,000 gallons of water a year for a daily shower.) Animal production (especially dairy and pigs) is the leading cause of water pollution, making drinking supplies unsafe to drink for humans and wildlife. Animal agriculture produces 9 times the raw sewage that humans produce. That's a lot of poo!

Australia’s water
I love our country. I am very passionate about our land, Australia. It is the driest continent on Earth. We live in the country that has the least amount of water in the world. Yet, water is our greatest export. We export our precious water through cattle. The Great Artesian Basin is over 14,000 years old. It is called fossil water. The water starts collecting in Papua New Guinea and slowly makes its way down to central Australia. It takes nature 14 to 21,000 years to replenish the supply underground. In the last 50 years we have been rapidly depleting the basin –for cattle. The water levels are still plummeting and more powerful pumps are needed to bring the water to the surface. 80% of the water taken from the Great Artesian Basin is to produce cattle and sheep.

Marsupial Extinctions
Australia holds the world’s worst record for extinction of mammals. This causes me great sadness, because I believe no economic benefit to humans is worth the extinction of a species, the violation of a right to exist. All of these animals have died on cattle grazing land. The landscape has changed so radically from the use of cattle that the native animals can no longer survive in their natural habitat. The soil is eroding from heavy hoofed animals, caving in burrows and damaging vegetation food sources. The cattle prefer the tasty native grasses and out compete the small native mammals for the food available. The cattle drink most of the water and also defecate in the drinking holes. Whatever small populations of native mammals exist, are vulnerable to being polished off by cats and foxes. The media causes us to believe that we have lost our marsupials to introduced predators, but this is their minor threat. The major cause for their endangerment and extinction is habitat loss through the commercial grazing of cattle. Millions of native predators like dingoes (and at one time Tasmanian tigers) are also shot and in other countries wolves, wildcats and bears to protect their commercial property. We are losing our unique and beautiful marsupials for the taste of meat. Around the world, including the Amazon, we are losing animal species due to habitat loss. Poaching, pollution and predators all contribute to their demise, but are not the main cause. When you dig deeper to find out why the forests are being cleared in panda country and tiger country, it is not to make paper or build a parking lot, it is to make meat and grow crops to make meat.

Read more from the book The Food Revolution by John Robbins or go to his website www.foodrevolution.org

VP

>>>>The ice cap on mars has been melting too, so the red planet is going through a rapid global warming. Your light bulbs, hot showers, and SUVs are not causing that.<<<<

Oh my Goodness...I've just had an ah-ha moment. Thanks Joe Sz, because of the ice caps on Mars are melting, it tells me that our solar system is going through climatic changes; not just the earth. And a good change at that.

Just because nature is on her cycle of rebirth, doesn't mean that every 'thing' has to be blamed for our climatic changes. Yes, she's cleaning house but she's also scheduled for these changes. It's time for certain life forms to under go change, so that new ones are born. Why I'm not in a state of fear and panic about the Earth changes, is beyond me.

I mean, who's and what's on Mars, causing those polar melt downs.

IUB

Global warming!
I think it is becoming a cult on it own,and Al Gore beeing the Guru.
Anyone here remembered 1975 Front page of Time Magazine predicting Ice Age will be here in the next 50 years.30 years later Global warrming!
I tought Vegan were for protecting all annimals,after reading this article,look like we need to dispose of lot of them.

Years ago when I made my first camping trip to Alaska, its beauty made me cry. Flying back to the city and looking through the plane's windows to see the heavy smog I was returning to made me cry for a different reason.

When I was very young and sailing on the Great Lakes, the water was clean enough to drink. These days, most people won't even drink out of the tap!

Whatever lights a fire under people to pollute less, use "greener" energy, conserve energy, recycle, etc. is a good thing, imo.

And as someone who has worked in the investment industry, I say that there's nothing wrong with environmentalism becoming a major industry that provides jobs and investment opportunities. Far from it! The profit motive drives our planet, and that's not going to change any time soon. When there's more profit to be made in reducing and cleaning up pollution than in causing it, we'll be living in a healthier world.

Yes, I've stated my view very simplistically, but we can all Google these issues for ourselves, and find out that there are a h*ll of a lot of scientists out there urging us to clean up our act. Maybe we don't have to accept that our cities will always be covered in a brown haze, with inhalers and oxygen bars becoming a routine part of life. Maybe we don't have to accept lakes that are cesspools and fish too toxic to eat.

Maybe, even, disinformation is being planted on the Internet to smear Al Gore and people like him. Now who would stand to gain from that?

onehandontheelephant,

Global warming is a fact, but there are nine scientific errors in his movie.

“If it makes them think”.. then it’s worth it…!!! Is often the retort of the profiteers……

I like Al Gore…
BUT.. there is a red flag flying…

David.


Gore's Climate Film Has Nine "scientific errors."

1.The film claimed that low-lying, inhabited Pacific atolls "are being inundated because of anthropogenic global warming," but there was no evidence of any evacuation as asserted in the film.
2) It spoke of global warming "shutting down the ocean conveyor," referring to the process by which the Gulf Stream is carried over the north Atlantic to western Europe. The judge said that, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, it was "very unlikely" that the Conveyor would shut down in the future, though it might slow down.
3) Gore had also claimed--by ridiculing the opposite view--that two graphs, one plotting a rise in C02 and the other the rise in temperature over a period of 650,000 years, showed "an exact fit." The judge said although scientists agreed there was a connection, "the two graphs do not establish what Mr. Gore asserts".
4) Gore said that the disappearance of snow on Mt. Kilimanjaro was expressly attributable to human-induced climate change. The judge said that the consensus is that this assertion could not be established.
5) The drying up of Lake Chad was used as an example of global warming. The judge said: "It is apparently considered to be more likely to result from...population increase, over-grazing and regional climate variability."
6) Gore ascribed Hurricane Katrina to global warming, but there was "insufficient evidence to show that."
7) Gore also referred to a study showing that polar bears were being found that had drowned "swimming long distances to find the [disappearing] ice." The judge said: "The only scientific study that either side before me can find, is one which indicates that four polar bears have recently been found drowned because of a storm."
8) The film said that coral reefs all over the world were bleaching because of global warming and other factors. The judge said that, separating out the impacts of stresses due to climate change from other stresses, such as over-fishing, and pollution, was difficult.
9) Gore's film claims that a sea level rise of up to 20 feet would be caused by the ice melt from either Greenland or western Antarctica, "in the near future." In Mr. Justice Barton's legal opinion, such melting could happen, "but only after, and over, millennia." He said of the film's assertion, "This is distinctly alarmist."



Gore climate film's nine 'errors'

Al Gore's film was sent to schools in England, Wales and Scotland
A High Court judge who ruled on whether climate change film, An Inconvenient Truth, could be shown in schools said it contains nine scientific "errors".
Mr Justice Burton said the government could still send the film to schools - if accompanied by guidance giving the other side of the argument.
He was ruling on an attempt by a Kent school governor to ban the film from secondary schools.
The Oscar-winning film was made by former US Vice-President Al Gore.
Mr Justice Burton said he had no complaint about Gore's central thesis that climate change was happening and was being driven by emissions from humans. However, the judge said nine statements in the film were not supported by mainstream scientific consensus.
In his final verdict, the judge said the film could be shown as long as updated guidelines were followed.
These say teachers should point out controversial or disputed sections.
Without the guidance, updated after the case was launched, the government would have been breaking the law, the judge said.
The government has sent the film to all secondary schools in England, and the administrations in Wales and Scotland have done the same.
The film won two Oscars.
'Landmark victory'
Mr Justice Burton told London's High Court that distributing the film without the guidance to counter its "one-sided" views would breach education laws.
The Department for Children, Schools and Families was not under a duty to forbid the film, provided it was accompanied by the guidance, he said.
"I conclude that the claimant substantially won this case by virtue of my finding that, but for the new guidance note, the film would have been distributed in breach of sections 406 and 407 of the 1996 Education Act", he said.
The nine errors alleged by the judge included:
• Mr Gore's assertion that a sea-level rise of up to 20 feet would be caused by melting of ice in either West Antarctica or Greenland "in the near future". The judge said this was "distinctly alarmist" and it was common ground that if Greenland's ice melted it would release this amount of water - "but only after, and over, millennia".
• Mr Gore's assertion that the disappearance of snow on Mount Kilimanjaro in East Africa was expressly attributable to global warming - the court heard the scientific consensus was that it cannot be established the snow recession is mainly attributable to human-induced climate change.
• Mr Gore's reference to a new scientific study showing that, for the first time, polar bears had actually drowned "swimming long distances - up to 60 miles - to find the ice". The judge said: "The only scientific study that either side before me can find is one which indicates that four polar bears have recently been found drowned because of a storm."
The case was brought by school governor Stewart Dimmock, from Dover, a father of two, who is a member of the New Party.
His lawyers described the ruling as a "landmark victory".
Mr Dimmock said: "I am elated with today's result, but still disappointed that the film is able to be shown in schools.

Mount Kilimanjaro has had its snow reduce in recent years
"If it was not for the case brought by myself, our young people would still be being indoctrinated with this political spin."
The judge awarded Mr Dimmock two-thirds of his estimated legal costs of more than £200,000, against the government.
BBC environment analyst Roger Harrabin said the ruling would be "embarrassing for Mr Gore" but would not affect the government, which said it was happy that the judge did not dismiss the film's mainstream argument.
But, he added, this controversy could encourage the public to think there was scientific doubt about the facts of climate change.
Children's Minister Kevin Brennan had earlier said: "It is important to be clear that the central arguments put forward in An Inconvenient Truth, that climate change is mainly caused by man-made emissions of greenhouse gases and will have serious adverse consequences, are supported by the vast weight of scientific opinion.
"Nothing in the judge's comments today detract from that."
He had previously said the updated guidance made "it clearer for teachers as to the stated IPCC [Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change] position on a number of scientific points raised in the film".
Notes to teachers on the guidance, on the government's Teachernet website, say: "An Inconvenient Truth is a film that has had a big impact. Its aim is to make the science and the arguments about global warming and climate change and its effects accessible to all audiences. It also presents a powerful case in favour of one particular type of political response to climate change.
"However, in parts of the film, Gore presents evidence and arguments which do not accord with mainstream scientific opinion. This guidance points out, on a scene by scene basis, the areas where further input will be required from teaching staff. This guidance is designed to help teaching staff encourage their pupils to assess the validity and credibility of different information sources and explore different points of view so as to form their own opinions."
Shadow Environment Secretary Peter Ainsworth said: "This is further evidence of the Government being all over the place on climate change.
"Instead of grabbing the first thing they could think of and then shooting it out to schools, the Government should put together a proper, up to-date, education pack about climate change - based on current evidence."

BBC link..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/7037671.stm

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) — the United Nations body that last month won the Nobel Prize for its efforts to boost understanding of climate change — has raised the tone of urgency with its latest report.

Its new synthesis report, which aims to give policy-makers a concise summary of the findings of all three of its detailed research summaries released earlier this year, is notable for containing more pressing language relative to earlier output.

Featured in the report is a discussion of "dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate system" — a phrase that was absent from previous IPCC publications because of objections from some political delegates to the panel's conferences.

"Delayed emission reductions significantly constrain the opportunities… and increase the risk of more severe climate change impacts," the report says. (See 'Five messages from the IPCC')

Although the IPCC declares that its job is merely to describe the science of climate change, and not to advocate policies aimed at tackling it, the new report is likely to be viewed as a call to arms ahead of important negotiations on a potential successor to the Kyoto Protocol.

Signatories to the Kyoto treaty are meeting next month in Bali, Indonesia, to discuss a follow-up pact to the carbon-cutting agreement, which remains the most comprehensive existing plan for fighting climate change.

Going up
The new report condenses the findings of the three longer reports, and is published as the IPCC's Fourth Assessment Report, entitled 'Climate Change 2007'. Broadly, the three publications discuss the scale of climate change, its likely effects on the world, and the ways and means in which it can be tackled.

The new report, released in Valencia, Spain, by UN secretary-general Ban Ki-moon, confirms again that it is at least 90% certain that rising temperatures are caused by mankind's activities. It lays out possible strategies for avoiding world temperature rises.

Successfully limiting the impact of such climate change will involve 'mitigation' strategies, such as emissions trading, and 'adaptation', such as installing improved flood defences, the report says.

Worst case scenario
Although the report is limited only to material within the three previous publications, the tone has toughened, perhaps because research published in the interim has suggested that world greenhouse emissions are matching or even exceeding the gloomiest predictions of the IPCC's previous output.

Recent research, for example, shows that the 'carbon intensity' of the global economy — the amount of greenhouse gas emitted per unit of economic productivity — is climbing, mostly as a result of the coal-dependence of China and other emerging nations (see Greenhouse-gas levels accelerating). Previously, economic analysts had not expected such a trend.

"The predictions for any given emissions scenario are likely to be underestimates — the most benign view — of future change," says Bob Spicer, an earth scientist at the UK's Open University. "Those areas undergoing most rapid change now (the Arctic and continental interiors) are likely to be where the biggest errors in the predictions lie."

Hans Verolme, head of the conservation group WWF's Global Climate Change programme in Washington DC, points to the existence of a section within the synthesis report called 'reasons for concern', which he says acknowledges the risk of both abrupt climatic shifts and irreversible impacts. Although there is "a little hedging and qualifying going on", he says, the fact that such a statement is in the report is notable.

“The good news is the report also says we have a small window of opportunity to take decisive action,” Verolme says, suggesting that politicians now have all of the evidence and analysis they need to pursue cuts in greenhouse-gas emissions in Bali next month. “The IPCC shows us that those cuts need to be not small, but deep.”

http://www.ipcc.ch/index.htm

Does anyone remember the name of the website, where the various 'paintings' (and later 'music') was allegedly found that were printed out and put around the great hall? Supposed to focus on them, etc... Then, I heard that it was a creative project by the musician for his new age recordings, and the paintings all came down no comment...?

You could go to this website, and download/print out the paintings found in these çhambers...

See&E,

You may be referring to Wingmakers?

Wingmakers is no more than a clever "New Age" internet "viral" marketing deception…!
Be that as it may..I really enjoyed the music and fantasy philosophy...
Yet.. when spiritual fantasy trumps ethics for profit making...
it is the Monsanto of the sacred.

For those that have the time and patience to wade through the information and links.
Here are some clues..

David.


Wikipedia

When the WingMakers website started in 1998 it was presented to the public as revealing a government conspiracy to hide evidence of the WingMakers that had been found at an archeological site in New Mexico. There was much online debate about this conspiracy and many in the UFO-studies community decided it was a hoax. Eventually Mark Hempel suggested that the material be viewed as "modern myth".
Some observers claim that beginning in early 2001, the material on the WingMakers website was gradually changed and corrupted from its original purpose of looking for divine wisdom from within . They point out that Mark Hempel, the Lyricus Teaching Order, and the "Grand Portal" were never part of the original website. Others feel that this is just another religion that will be forgotten in a small number of years. Yet another opinion is that the WingMakers website represents a kind of New Age experiment in myth making and reality shifting. The WingMakers website functions as a community site by providing an online discussion forum .
Link… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingmakers





Wingmakers = a form of viral marketing….

Viral marketing
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Link… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_marketing


******************************************

1 Elements of a Viral Marketing Strategy
2 Gives away products or services
3 Provides for effortless transfer to others
4 Scales easily from small to very large
5 Exploits common motivations and behaviors
6 Utilizes existing communication networks
7 Takes advantage of others' resources

Link…
http://www.wilsonweb.com/wmt5/viral-principles.htm


Wingmakers.com was effectively debunked on Internet soon after it started in 1998. At the time the site pretended to exhibit alien artefacts that were found in caved-out chambers. These artifacts consisted of music tracks on mysterious discs and all sorts of paintings, which contained messages for mankind. The makers were a people from the future, called the Wingmakers. Unfortunately, not much of the original evidence that exposed the true nature of the site, is left on the web. On http://www.rense.com/ufo2/wing.htm you find a contribution made by someone called Ed Wolfe. I made one myself at the time, but that one has disappeared after 7 or 8 years. (Unfortunately, on Internet there is little sense of history.)
Wingmakers.com was initially debunked, because these soundtracks from the mysterious future had the copyright of Mark Hempel imbedded. The name Hempel was linked to a company called Southbay Group (soutbaygroup.com). The company site showed a picture of Hempel with the same sort of mysterious painting standing in his office behind him. If I remember correctly it was the Southbay site that mentioned Hempel s former activities as a DJ and owner of Netradio.net. This Netradio.net linked to a CD called Soulfood with exactly the same kind of music. Later on more about Hempel was found, as mentioned in Ed Wolfes story.
In fact this is on


In fact this is one of the first examples of viral marketing. Mark Hempel seems to be one of the first people who invented it, trying to draw more attention to his music and paintings. Unfortunately, it seems Hempel has other problems as well, when you take a look at nowadays http://www.wingmakers.com. After having been debunked from all sides, Hempel had the guts to make some unbelievable adjustments to his myth, turning it into a bizarre, freaky religious system. He invented someone called “James” who is passing on messages from the unknown and who is already quite popular nowadays, I was told. In the meanwhile he succeeded in making people forget that Wingmakers.com was a complete fraud once. By now there are even offshoots like http://www.wingmakers.co.uk. And, best of all, Wingmakers got an undisputed entry in Wikipedia. In fact quite amazing achievements.

Link…

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/forums/viewthread/1909/

HOAX!
Wingmakers.com Labeled Hoax...
And By The Hoaxer Himself?
11-28-98

http://www.rense.com/ufo2/wing.htm


THE WINGMAKERS HOAX: MORE THAN PROOF OF AL BIELEK'S DELUSIONS

Link..

http://www.bielek-debunked.com/Wingmaker.html

Thanks, David!

That was indeed the group I was thinking of, and we all had those images all of the hall, and I printed them out at one time. It was fun, but another example of material that was there, then gone at school.

Thanks for the reply!

Best regards,

See&E

You are welcome See&E.

Back on the subject of Global Warming...?
Here are some fascinating videos..
To my mind more credible than Al Gores "An Inconvenient Truth"..

David.


***************

Green House Conspiracy 2007

This documentary is a good companion to the latest documentary,
"The Great Global Warming Swindle" recently shown on CH 4 UK and is also available on Google video.


Google video link.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5949034802461518010&q=genre:documentary&total=293666&start=100&num=50&so=0&type=search&plindex=16

*****************


Scare Tactics in Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth

Link...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-41275742083231901&total=34&start=0&num=50&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

******************

Cause of global warming. It clearly discuss about the fact that CO2 is not cause of global warming. Take a look also at the Great Global Warming Swindle

link..

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3309910462407994295&q=global+warming&total=22255&start=0&num=50&so=0&type=search&plindex=2

Tut! tut! David! You have revealed yourself a climate change skeptic. That's fine, so long as you're willing to exit mainstream science to believe it's not happening.

I watched the documentary Climate Change Swindle. Following that I watched the interviews on the film maker and others in connection to the film. Obvious flaws and scientific blunders are everywhere. The film-maker is inconsistent and used out-of-date data, especially on planet temperature rise and sun spots.

Climate change has everything to do with our best understandings of scientific observations, and nothing to do with some silly scary comments that a spiritual guru has made about the end of the world. The great thing about it is, we can do something about it. We don't have to be frightened, we just have to act. We need to do a lot more than change a silly light globe!

Kindest regards, Vegan Pride.

Vegan Pride,
I would more describe myself as a skeptic of what causes climate change from what is presented by the “main stream”.
How does that old adage go..?
“Only dead fish swim with the stream”

Dark chuckle..

I agree that...

"Climate change has everything to do with our best understandings of scientific observations,"

That is why I recommend watching the “Green House Conspiracy 2007”

Google video link….

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5949034802461518010&q=genre:documentary&total=293666&start=100&num=50&so=0&type=search&plindex=16

Check out the video…
and let me know what you thinketh…

David.

I think this global warming is a combination of natural, cyclic weather alterations as well as mankinds negative contribution.
We have to always be aware of any studies done on this or any other information. My sister-in-law has a friend who does research for drug and other companies and she said that when the figures start to bear negatively on a product, the companies stop the study.
So it's important to look at who did the study and more importantly, who funded it.
A while back there was a climatologist,scientist on Coast to Coast and she said the the majority of main stream scientists agree that much of global warming is caused by our activity. As I said, I think it's both.
We can't stop what is a natural cyclic thing - or maybe we can through consciousness. Anything is possible. But, we can control what we put into the air, soil and water.

If global warming exists and is true, then why is Mann's hockey stick flawed and discredited and why does U.S. weather satelites report that the planet HAS BEEN GETTING COOLER FOR SEVEN STRAIGHT YEARS IN A ROW??!!!

How does this work? Perhaps the person that is sweating in the middle of the snowstorm is not in the middle of a heatwave....and only has a fever?

;-)

Where we live in the mountains, ten years ago we'd get heavy snowfalls of 3 ft and for the past ten years, the snow has gone down to almost nothing. Last year we got one 6" snowfall and a couple of flurries.
The creek on our property used to freeze years ago and people would ice skate into town. It hasn't frozen in years.
That's just one personal observation of mine and my neighbors.
People don't realize that global warming doesn't mean that you won't get cold weather. It means the weather is going to be unpredictable--lots of rain, drought, more and more melting of ice caps, glaciers, as is evidenced in recent years as well as currently.
It's been said the ice ages are preceded by global warming spells, based on ice core studies.
It's December 13 and here in the mountains we're walking around in t shirts today in 70 degree plus weather. Last year at this time the forsythia started blooming. It thought it was March.
Right now I have pansies and other flowers blooming. This is zone 6! Other perennials like day lilies are up a couple of inches.
Last spring we had a couple of weeks of high 80's which caused the plants to come alive and then we got a really hard freeze that killed all my Japanese maples, all the blossoms on the fruit trees (no fruit at all last summer/fall).
I don't know what reports you're reading; but maybe you might want to look at the reality of the crazy changes in weather patterns that are pointing to warming. Or maybe we're living on a different planet. :-)

To equate local weather conditions to a planetary-wide change is not only absurd....but very dangerous. The data from the weather satelites stands on it's own. The planet is getting cooler now. Solar flare activity is down.

Furthermore;

If humans are causing "climate change" (I love how Al Gore changed his wording when the snowstorms blocked access to his "global warming summits") then why are the ice caps on Mars melting too?

Further;

Why is EVERY PLANET in our solar system getting hotter....or colder....based on solar flare activity rising or falling?

Please explain this data and how it fits into "humans are killing Mommy Earth" thinking?

Or maybe it's something else entirely...

Perhaps George W. Bush and Dick Cheney have been making unscheduled visits to our solar neighbors, infecting their gentle and innocent female-like ecosystems with the dastardly "Republican Virus" and the planets all immediately go into a global warming fever??? (...didn't they tell this story in the children's book, "Why Mommy Is A Democrat"?)

Or, perhaps it's Jehovah and his fleet that have been escorting Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney around the solar system in their nefarious plan to 'TAKE OVER ZEE UNIVERSE!!!!' and Ramtha and his Andromedans just don't have enough dilithium crystals to fuel their warp drives and catch up to them? (Dilithium crystal donation anyone?) After all, Scamtha has said that Bush is "making deals wtih aliens"...and Scamtha NEVER lies. Maybe moveondotborg, Sheryl Crow, and Rosie O'Donnell will tell us all "the real truth" so we can truly wake up and smell the coffee ...while we hang upside down like a friggin bat for hours, and then wipe our rumps with one sheet of toilet paper so we can save both "Mommy Earth" AND ourselves from these evil dragons walking around in human skin, wearing our clothes, eating our food, and chewing OUR bubblegum for Heaven's sakes!!! Eh?

On the other hand, there's a good reason that hurricane activity dropped to almost nothing after Katrina....despite the National Hurricane Center predicting "superstorms because of global warming" for the next several years. The good and all-wise patriots of the various New Age groups (like Scamtha and her minions) and various other liberal groups all got wise to what Bush and Cheney were doing and those two were forced to shut down the Hurricane-Making-Machine that the aliens had traded them for a lifetime membership to Blockbuster Video.

I think I understand now.....

"Algore" and his Republican global warming frankenstein police department is the next generation of the "Class Society Developmental Program".

Here! Here! I'm all for keeping the animals in the zoo compounds with special artificial grow lights and all organ"ick" feed and special enlightened trainer/handlers.

This way the only way the animals can get out is on special leash's sold by the JZK INC. Multinational Empire.

I hear that Dr Greg heads up the special petting zoo part of the facility in which treats are given to the "good" tame animals and isolation pens for the "bad" free spirited animals.

the argument then is over what causes the Third Rock to have hot flashes? Is she, er it, middle-aged? Did the finest species she, er it, produced scraping and raping too much?

The issue for emf and recovery concerns how cult leaders can exploit the Algore version to suit their needs to manipulate paranoid devotees and maybe a few democrats along the way. The science version [not GoP] asks us to observe cautiously and not react subjectively.

Over Thanksgiving week I took my daughter and an another 17 yr old on a snowboard trip to Wolf Creek Ski area near Pagosa Springs in CO. I planed the trip many months ago in Sept. For the past 15 years Wolf Creek, traditoinally the "most" snow of any US ski area, was open by Nov and had an avergae 75 inch base by the second week of Nov. Good plan, eh? Bad year--this year Wolf Creek had one lift open with a 9 inch, manmade snow base. After 2 days of boring runs, we opted for a great horsebackriding trek into the no snow mountains on Thanksgiving day, then headed south for Santa Fe where it snowed 3 inches that night!

Yea, I too had brief thoughts that greenhouse effects from human produced CO2 ruined my plans----$#@%%*$ greedy species, but I know better. It is much more complex and it could be worse with or without implementing Algore plans.

Hey guys, why are we "dissing" MOMMY earth? Did you not all have mothers and have respect for her?

Maybe using the emoticons would help. But if women here began with the same type of eupemisms and language, how would you react? It's getting off topic when we become divisive - and earth has always been referred to as "mother." A mother nurtures. Many fathers do these days as well, and those who do, (sounds to me that Joe definitely does) - you know you wouldn't want your daughter "generally and stereotypically dismissed" - due to her gender.

So can we get back to the evil empire RSE and its "red guards" and mysterious woods (someone should start a "dig" in those woods! No telling what one might find.)

The important thing is, we can have respect for one another without resorting to words that DO inflict feelings of inferiority, etc., and this then will prove the subjugation of women with which RSE started. So keep in mind, even though we are the same, we might perceive things differently. (Or would could just call the "machine" and wars of this world -the most current over what? What again? ::scratching head:: - well, people making the comment, "MEN MAKE WARS" (leave out the prefix "wo")- would they be right or wrong?

At the least, this is the only planet we have. Whatever is causing changes, be it us, or be it "them" or be it "it" - we ought be concerned. And what would you do if you were out in a bar, and another guy comes over and insults your "mommy?" Mommy's are tough! When you were a kid, your mom would protect you, for the most part. But older, do you not have a soft spot for your own mom?

Let's get rid of the "hormone" game, please, oh please, and get back to the root of the intention of this board. Please stop insuling my "mommy" because she went through hell, the great depression, etc. - because every word is not visible as sarcasm in this genre, one must add it for some others to understand. Your "mommy" pushes you out of a very small opening...and trust me, it wasn't easy. "Mommies" are tough!!!!

PEACE OUT AGAIN <3