Housekeeping: As is posted on the EMF Message Board page, this forum is for support, sharing opinions and experiences for those who have left RSE and have doubts and concerns about their tenure there. It is NOT a place for proselytizing for RSE, JZK Inc or Ramtha. Play nicely or your post will be sent to cyberspace time-out for all eternity. The disclaimer for EMF is located on this page http://enlightenmefree.com/disclaimer.html and all posters agree to the terms of the disclaimer. Be sure you've read it before posting.
You may also want to visit a complementary forum at FACTNet http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/779.html
If you wish to use a Spell Checker, you may wish to use this free one: http://www.jacuba.com/
The question arises, so what if the RSE is just another group promulgating a set of beliefs that fall outside the verifiable realm of science and repeatable results.
The slippery truth is that even science exists on a continuum of belief to some degree. Quantum theory pretty much rearranges much of what science has believed incontrovertible truth for centuries.
It seems that reliability isn't what it used to be.
Who knows what part of the psyche beliefs in the extraordinary stimulate? It is probably the part that provides the foundation for the arts at least in part.
Why is the RSE any different than Catholicism or Judaism or Islam, all of which have a history of corruption and political manipulation their followers?
Things to consider:
The major religions have been around so long, that they each have a history of dissent WITHIN the dogma.
Some split away, like Martin Luther and start their own religion and others [like the Jesuits] adapt within the system and use it to their advantage.
With newer groups, like the RSE, there is no history of dissent, of challenge within and without the group.
The newer the religion the tighter the hold on its followers, generally speaking.
There are many Catholics who have beliefs that are in opposition too the Pope's views on abortion and the death penalty etc.
You can call yourself a Catholic or a Jew and kind of fashion your own little religion out of it.
That wasn't always the case, Catholics used to burn heretics but no more. The group has matured beyond those responses because people have evolved through education to a place where they put stress on the leadership but refusing to believe certain things.
My point is it is easier to be an individual in older, more established religions because there is an unspoken tradition of bending the rules to fit your life.
In other words, the power of the dogma is weakened over time and testing of followers.
It changes when the initial leaders die and others take over. Time will tell if JZ's dog and pony show lives after her.
There seems to be a false assumption out there that people who criticize the RSE and JZ want it shut down by some legal means.
This is not my position. I want the full picture discussed. That is all. All points of view so that people can make an informed decision about where they want to spend their time and money.
I hink of this site a a consumer advocacy group for those in and thinking about joining the RSE.
Nothing wrong with that.
It is my belief that if people really understand what manipulation is and how it works, if people really understand how the mind becomes vulnerable to manipulation, they can make a reasoned assessment in ANY situation, not just with regards to the RSE.
The title of this thread proves my point about manipulation.
Our curiosity as human beings is so great it makes us vulnerable. Anyone with a strong interest in this topic has to fight the urge to NOT read this post because the title is so manipulative and plays so heavily on our natural desire to know.
It is VERY easy to manipulate people on this level, we are all vulnerable to it because of our desire to know.
The title of the thread said do NOT read if you believe in Ramtha or JZ, but it is obvious I wanted you to read it.
Just like "don't follow me" is a manipulation when you have set up a school with the express purpose of having people follow your words and advice.
My advice is to learn the science of manipulation along with whatever spiritual teaching you are exploring.
I think places like the RSE would collapse under the weight of exposure if everyone understood the basics of manipulation.
Aw, but I do not believe in Ramtha (or disbelieve either) and IDO WANNA KNOW THE TRUTH, so your title did not manipulate me.
You are right though, in much of what you say..or, at any rate, I can agree.
I think though, there are other things besides the desire to manipulate at work, and have been, in the forming of old or new religions or "schools"...It is possible that people in those older established religions wanted to reach a consensus about the truth, and wanted a fellowship with others of like mind. It is possible they sought to free their fellows from the manipulation of external hostile groups...it is possible they believed they were performing a selfless service to their fellow man. It is even possible that that was originally Ramtha/JZ's goal. Maybe LR Hubbard even thought this way at one time...
Also, membership can best be sustained by giving members a say...so, over time, most religions acquire something resembling a democratic consensus of belief, and the more established they become, the more likely they are to be tolerant of dissent..."Oh well, we lost that one, but look at all the ones we still have."
I think the big mistake I am seeing being made by RSE is the shunning of former members...reading the posts here, former members feel ripped off, and it is only their lingering fondness for and empathy for current members that keep them from taking strong action against the administration of the school. If I were an administrator of the school, I would encourage current students to treat former members like gold.
I just want to add the following thought to my initial post.
I would like to see RSE and all oppressive power stealing groups fall because people find their own authority and just walk away.
That would be beautiful because then people take that knowledge with them and are less vulnerable to the next greedy con artist who might be a little more sophisticated than JZ.
HOWEVER, that doesn't preclude an EXTENSIVE investigation of fraud by the Attorney General's Office.
Revelations of fraud, of people living in poverty trying to make the fraudulant claims workable might be just the type of revelation people need to really find their authentic power [rather than the phoney power of seeing through cards etc] and GET OUT or never begin.
I am sure if fraud was established JZ would do the right thing and just divide up all her money for the victims of her fraud, right?
I mean, she could just manifest it again, right? so no big deal for her.
Establishing Fraud could take a long time, though, and in the process, current students may be forced to testify, have their lives put under a microscope, and be shamed and humiliated by the publicity...and the COurts are not as compassionate as we might wish. It would be great, truly, if they walked away on their own steam. I also think it's clear that JZ is willing to go to Court, and she can afford it(!) - and further, working in the legal profession (though not a lawyer) sometimes justice is not served and its more about rhetoric and PR.
Denotes, imo you yourself provided an example of manipulation (I can't say whether it was deliberate) by tossing in this statement without substantiation, and then moving on: "Why is the RSE any different than Catholicism or Judaism or Islam, all of which have a history of corruption and political manipulation their followers?" Are we all supposed to mentally nod our heads and keep reading without using the critical thinking skills we say we hold so dear?
I can't speak about Catholicism or Islam, but I was raised Jewish in the U.S. and come from a very large Jewish family. If you were speaking of there being some individuals at some time whose religion was Judaism and who were corrupt politically or otherwise, who could disagree with a statement that broad? But to say the religion itself has a "history of corruption and political manipulation...?" If that was historically true, then where are all the countries where Jews have ruled...where are the magnificent palaces filled with priceless art treasures that other religions have accumulated...and WHERE CAN I REGISTER TO GET MY SHARE?
The only thing intended to be manipulative in my post was the title, but that is self explanatory.
I am not quite sure what your specific criticism is. Is it there is no evidence of a Jewish state, such as Isreal being corrupt?
I am speaking more on the level of personal manipulation with guilt, fear etc. That is really the level I am speaking on.
I think you could argue that all religions have a political component to them.
Not sure what you mean