Housekeeping: As is posted on the EMF Message Board page, this forum is for support, sharing opinions and experiences for those who have left RSE and have doubts and concerns about their tenure there. It is NOT a place for proselytizing for RSE, JZK Inc or Ramtha. Play nicely or your post will be sent to cyberspace time-out for all eternity. The disclaimer for EMF is located on this page http://enlightenmefree.com/disclaimer.html and all posters agree to the terms of the disclaimer. Be sure you've read it before posting.
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When RSE began (1988) Ramtha was not abusive in the presentation generally speaking. There were certain inconsistencies like the earth changes forecasts which in hindsight ended up being very destructive and also running at one another blindfolded in the name field.
I attended RSE regularly for a period of 6 years. I attended all my required events and many others that were not required.
In that time I personally did not hear much about earth changes at any events. Mostly I heard from other students and printed literature in the marketplace.
The earth changes forecasts infested the student's minds and likewise was passed onto those who were not present when the dire predictions were made.
Ramtha in those days as a general rule was considerate of his audience and was a supernatural exhibition that was definitely non human. He was not critical of people and expressed great tolerance.
I loved Ramtha. I attended because I wanted the paranormal abilities and paranormal life that was the offer of the school and I also kept attending because of the supernatural being that expressed beyond the realms of human consciousness.
Ramtha was a comedian extroadinaire. He oftentimes had the whole audience laughing so hard there were tears coming from their eyes. To work us hard at disciplines seemd plausible at the time to me and not unjust as the reason given that he was endeavouring for us to overcome the needs of our body seemed to make sufficient sense. I could barely even remember the uproarious laughter we used to have because RSE has disintegrated into such abuse.
I would most definitely never have returned to RSE after my first experience if it were not for Ramtha.
The observable behaviour of those involved in the administration of the organization was always in contradiction to what was presented by Ramtha as enlightenment.
I know others felt the same way. Many loved Ramtha. He was not unkind to his students.
I did not leave RSE 6 years later by choice. I left because I ran out of money. To attend one retreat flying from Australia could cost around $4,500 so funds could be depleted fast.
Others I knew of could no longer continue for the same reasons. All of that education in "manifesting" did not produce the funds to continue.
After I could not longer attend I received minimal information regarding the teachings as I was a long way away. Much of the information I did recieve was speculative because of the imposed secrecy of the sacredness of the teachings......meaning the Truth Teachings and Overindulgence ceremonies were considered "sacred".... an effective way to retard outgoing information of alcohol abuse.
It was only when I returned to RSE in 2005 and lived amongst the community for a while when I really became aware of the extent of the abuse of RSE from first hand encounters. I also became more aware after reading first hand accounts on FACTNEt and this website.
It is quite evident to me that the monster that oftentimes presents himself as "Ramtha" is a disintegration of the exhibition into the altered ego.
He is the antithesis of the teachings initially presented and definitely exhibits the manipulative tactics of human nature. He is a judgemantal hypocrite.
An enlightened being does not need to verbally and physically abuse people. They do not need to use profane language as some sort of educational "tool." They do not need to set an example of alcohol overindulgence that is known to have detrimental health effects on humans.
Everyone I know attended RSE because of the beautiful paranormal exhibiton and the outragous potentials and possibilities. It offered for something more than a mundane life.
The lofty thoughts and inspration of old have been have disintegrated into regular subjegation and abuse of the audience.
In reality RSE is The Dream Merchant for it offers just that.....how to DREAM.....and most of those dreams never come to fruition....and the offer goes on........and on.........
My evaluations this website are a product of long term observation and experience. Once upon a time I "believed." I was enthusiastic for what I thought was a genuine offer and I loved the teacher.
Who can prove if the occupant inhabiting JZ Knight's vessel is the same being as of old? The latest version of Ramtha behaves more like Jehovah.
wow you said it well. Are you willing to share your experiences?
My only comment is that you continue to write as if JZ is a TRUE channel and Ramtha is a true entity. You write as if the the paranormal is achievable. Paranormal events are by definition things which cannot be explained through scientific analysis. Attempts to prove paranormal events as true require pseudoscientific (fake science) analysis and therefore fall under their own weight. What the bleep is fake science, white gold is fake science, alchemy is fake science, RSE is fake science yet you still write as if fake science works and paranormal events are true.
Am I missing something?
Yes you are. What I have experienced in my life is not imagination. And im not talking about finding my cards on the fence or getting to the void or any of the other disciplines. I am talking about MIRACLES! Physical and tangible that are definitely "paranormal". And, your'e suggesting there's no such thing?
Channeling is not a real capability - it is fakery
You cannot manifest gold out of dust - it is impossible
You cannot levitate, time travel, or remote view it requires metaphysics to exist not true Aristotle's true physics.
Metaphysics is neither fallible, testable, or measurable. You cannot provide any empirical (IE. repeatable data substantiating any claim you have to a miracle) You cannot only provide anecdotal evidence which, while amusing, cannot be tested using scientific method.
Naturopathic medicine is anecdotal, herbal remedies are anecdotal, white gold is anecdotal, finding cards is anecdotal, it is all anecdotal so I cannot subscribe to any of it.
All of the "scientific" claims made at RSE fall into the realm of pseudoscience or fake science. Dress them up any way you want, however, they will not withstand independent peer review.
So the answer is yes. I think metaphysics, quantumphysics as a spiritual engine and all of the stuff you pandered to ant RSE is fake and cannot exist.
Happy New Year
I remain sincerely
Leemar - Commander Galactic Invasion Force and Astro's best friend
You're are entitled to your opinion. However, I am not speaking from an opinion (mine or anyone elses) I am speaking from experience.
Hallucinations, delusions, observations, illusions, are often perceived as real. But unless they can be measured and repeated they fall into quackery, fakery or perhaps some form of mental dysfunction/disorder.
Sure maybe JZ does perceive the Ram enters her body, rather than expending such a huge amount of effort to explain this paranormal event with fake science, simply use established real science and accept that JZ Knight is one of two things:
1. A fake and a con (the most likely)
2. Mentally ill
I think the same applies to many followers, they exercise RSE behavior because they are either:
1. A fake and a con
2. Mentally ill (the most likely)
Sorry we differ
No need to apologize for differing. I cant speak for hampton. What she does or doesn't perceive. I'm not perched on her brain. Thank God! It doesn't negate my own experiences. That have nothing to do w/fakery.
Are you suggesting that unless something can be measured it doesn't exist? Isn't real? How about your feelings?
Leemar-meet me on the "delusional vs virtual reality" . If you're interested in talking about this I am.
We can be polite.
Good point Magpi! Reminds me of the medical world, prior to microscopes, which said germs did not exist. Imagine all the people who died from post op infections because those doctors refused to operate in a sterile environment.
Like you, I'd have a couple of my little healing miracles during my short time of doing body work and crystal healing, a couple of spontaneous time travel/multi dimensional and out of body experiences, just like the techniques I was given were supposed to bring forth.
It's easy to discount what one hasn't experienced and what they believe they are not capable of; but it doesn't matter, because discounting the existence of snow, doesn't affect the snow and those who have the joy or experiencing it.
You said; "I think metaphysics, quantumphysics as a spiritual engine and all of the stuff you pandered to ant RSE is fake and cannot exist."
Now there you hit the nail on the head and very specifically....but I don't think the audience will catch it.
Combining or connecting "spiritual" with quantum physics, paranormal occurences (i.e.: those things that occur that science has no CURRENT explantion for), or philosophical wanderings by overly creative people with way too much time on their hands (aka 'metaphysics') is dangerous and absurd.
"Spiritual" has never been able to be proved, pretty much by definition, yet the vast majority of human beings throughout history firmly accept some form of it's existence. Religion was invented to try and explain and come to terms with this understanding, or "feeling", if you will. (contrary to the conspiracy nuts thoughts on the topic...)
The other three are by-products of obscure and relatively rare unexplained phenomenon (like that hasn't been happening on Earth for eons....they used to think that comets were "gods", for crying out loud.), but the keyword here is "phenomenon". Phenomenon has some form of observable data to it. Even if that observable data is just one guy's unqualified opinion.
"Spiritual", as you pointed out, does not.
Therefore: You are correct...metaphysics, or quantum physics, or the New Age for that matter, as a "spiritual engine" cannot exist. They are mutually exclusive by the very definition of the terms themselves.
RSE and the rest of the junk-science of the New Age teaches them that this is not so. It's all rather amazing.
What I am saying is that I believe in scientific method. The ability to measure, test, repeat and verify. That is the basics of science. Read a peer reviewed journal on any science, physical or social. Before a theory is generally accepted it must stand the test of independent peer review. In other words the same result is achieved with empirical data in a statistically significant way.
I don't buy into "wow, you won't believe what happened to me" scientific arguements. You cannot claim that with your paranormal miracles. Your information is anecdotal or humorous or metaphysical but it is not scientific. It cannot be because it cannot be systematically repeated so it is either fake, a delusion, or a hallucination. I don't know what your miracles are but I bet you didn't cure yourself or someone else with your mind or grow new teeth, or what have you. You may consider a bit of good luck (ie the power company was about to shut you off and you found $50.00 or a friend showed up to help you out) a miracle. But that is simply good luck not a paranormal event.
Thanks Tyger - Astro sends a big lick. Hey what do you think abou IGOTPEPPERONI.com? Want to join my downline?
Happy New Year
Leemar and Astro
I have to go to work see you guys later
Bodhi-good point. The sad part is that just because science doesn't recognize something doesn't mean it aint there.
I wholeheartedly agree with you LEEMAR that there is no basis whatsoever to channeling, etc. I am one of those people that has come out of the RSE experience not believing in anything. That does not mean that I cannot acknowledge that there is much that we do not know yet pertaining to science and our understanding of how some as yet unexplained phenomena work.
It is hard to argue with someone who has had 'paranormal' experiences because they utterly and completely believe their experience to be real. I, on the other hand, can't prove that their experience isn't real so at this point I choose to let it be. Let them believe in their experience but I don't have any reason to buy into it. Whether I buy into it or not really doesn't matter though, since such experiences are mostly deeply personal anyway.
Also, not to open a can of worms here but if you (and Tyger) are so strongly against all things spiritual you must also acknowledge that the belief in 'god' and 'Jesus' fall into this category of 'fakery'...? I'm sorry, I don't in any way mean to put down anyone's faith, I firmly believe in everyone's right to believe what they want to believe. Just trying to make the point that there is as much conjecture in the 'reality' of mainstream religion's version of events as the paranormal (neither of which I subscribe to, btw).
How long wre you at rse and what did you expect to experience? That's not meant sarcastically.
you should take a course in logical argument. It will actually help you to form arguments that may be defended in a cogent manner.
Your using a common fallacy in logic:
You can't prove that I didn't experience xyz so it must have happened. You cannot prove that JP Patches couldn't see me through the TV set so he must have. This is sort of a non sequitur argument or irrelevant appeal to emotion or sentiment argument.
I would describe this as engagement of the
Thanks for your sharing on the perspective of one whom the message reached you 'down unda'. You captured the 'romantic' period of the school very well.
The initial words (teachings?) in books, dialogues and audiences were indeed (sheesh, hard to even use that word anymore, haha)... about tolerance, love, loving-yourself-into-(a greater)life experience. About forgiveness, and then the fortune telling portion came about.
The members of the audience began to ask questions about everything under the sun, the earth, history, the future, characters, legends, myths, locations of ancient religious relics, and even had the chance to 'hear' from Jesus himself -- once.
In entertainment and the theatre, as you likely know, they call it the "suspension of disbelief". The desire of those attending entertainment in the fine arts (a book, a live stage performance, theatre, movies, the news) to suspend their normal awareness and acceptance of life, and allow themselves to be entertained. To the degree one does this, and the skill of the production or actors, one can vicariously experience all manner of emotion, and have an emotional/physiological association & reaction to what is being presented.
When it is fun, light-hearted, or helps one reinforce their long-held beliefs and preferential ways in which they choose to process experiences and events in life, it can be delightful, reassuring and even pscyhologically beneficial.
Just like in the choice in movies when going to a theatre, however, there are all manner of sci-fi (aliens, cataclysmic disasters), dramas, romantic comedies, adventures, horror, etc. The only difference is, when paying big-ticket prices for the events, one began to experience unknown genre of entertainment. It was no longer the image of a loving being addressing and helping those in the audience, it began to become contradictory.
At first, in the suspension of disbelief, the errors or contradictions temporarily disrupted the show, like a cell phone or noise from an audience member might. But in time, can you imagine what would happen to your theatre-going experience if you went from regional to global cultures, and forced, or offered all attending to down large cups of wine, or bottles of wine and then watch the show?
Running blindfolded at each other in the field, hearing the crying and shouts of those jabbed with fingers or elbows or trampled over by the stampede of hiking boots sort of ruined the mood too. Or watching those souls seeking healthing to their terminal diseases, including one called aging, vomitting all over the place, or go into diebetic reactions or worse, was sort of distracting.
The attitude is everything era, complete with Nike's banner hung behind the master of music guarded sound panels, began to bridge from the representation, or alleged clarification of all manner of spiritualist, occult, metaphysical texts.
Then there was the increasing infusion of movie soundtracks becoming part of the modified "guided meditation" with hyperventilated breathing era.
The other word that comes to mind is Conditioning.
These didn't happen all at once. Eventually one was introduced to experiences that under the guise of becoming beyond the beginning level, were ádvanced.
The era in which the rse was attended (the 80's-90's) had ufo sightings, new age metaphysics, crystals, yoga, meditation, fortune telling, mediums, the age of aquarius, the popularity of movies like E.T., Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind, and hollywood astrologers, psychics, spoon-benders, magicians/illusionists, reports of cover ups, and all manner of books and stories of people experiencing some type of 'sighting' and some more. This was not from the school -- this was in the movies, bookstores, and television. This was the environment under which those looking for explanations, answers, the truth about the unknown was waiting for those to step forward and let everyone know.
IT was also in the era as the post 60's (anti establishment) era when the hippies of yore, also transformed and became the very thing and then some that they protested against. Companies, corporations, stocks, bonds, capitolism, real estate, MLM's, and what was seemingly the end of the era of the hope of working for companies/corporations most of your life. The change in domestic (US owned) companies, utility companies, businesses into international investment, buy-outs, and then the outsourcing of jobs.
All these things are relevant to this question, because they helped create the NEED and INTEREST to seek out, or begin searching for what was going on. This was in addition to the philosophical questions of life: Who am I? Why Am I here? IS there a God? What is my relation to God? Do I have a purpose? Have I lived before? What happens when I die? What are ghosts? Is there life on other planets? (Billions and Billions of planets from Carl Sagan).
Then, the re-popularization of spiritualist, metaphysical texts. It was fun, it was entertaining, and then mediums, renamed channelers, trance channelers, started popping up everywhere.
The astrological charts, bio=rhytms, numerology, pscyhic readings, tarot cards, runes, shamanistic, medicine men.
Then, the public association of where/how the pharmaceutical companies (aka "accepted medicine") got their ideas for healing medications came from...
HERBS! Botanicals! Folk remedies.
As far as the ranch, there were eras. When the promises, prophecies, expectations of a few thousand paying audience members were not met, and their investment into horses, tonics, etc didn't work... many left... some stayed... New era... they came and left. Always the beginners were the "brightest and best yet"
Third thought: Boredom.
So what do people do when they are have lived/been brought up and lived thru the 40's (war) 50's, 60's 70's, 80's do when they have lived the life of the caterpillar? (They have gone to school, left school, graduated, gotten jobs, been married, some divorced, had kids) Their loyalty and dedication to their employer, their profession, even some disgruntled with their country post wars, military service, loss of loved ones, friends, do?
Many didn't find solace or answers in their education, their churches, and the more educated or classes they took, even scientists and engineers, they still were seeking something? Boredom? Routine? Restless minds?
An illusionist, magician used to know to perform their illusions only rarely, and to different audiences, lest the secret of how the illusion was performed be suspected and deduced.
In the suspension of disbelief, it didn't and doesn't matter if you know it is not real, and only entertainment, it still does provide something for hour(s), days, weeks, (in case of groups) months/years/decades...
The Catch: In order to achieve maximum entertainment and illusion, everyone has to agree to be entertained, and suspend their reasoning mind, and be allow themselves to be entertained, hypnotized, willing to pretend together...
No different than early childhood play and fantasies among neighborhood kids.
There no debating the truth of Santa Claus to young children, the older kids with more experience, age, start telling the younger ones the truth at some point, and then the magic illusion is either over, or the attitude of being part of the illusion (helping or becoming Santa for younger brothers and sisters)can be fun.
We don't see all manner of 12-step programs or support groups for children who were "lied/misled" to about the existence of Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, and no one is suing parents for ruining their lives based on untruths.
This is the same, only it costs a lot more money, it can and does effect the lives and careers of attendees IF they really start to believe that the fun and entertainment was the REAL messiah.
Like anything repetitious, you can eventually get people and animals to behave, and believe in the reality of their environment, culture, superstitions, beliefs (explanations for nature, the unknown, the unexpected and unexplainable) provided that no insiders come in, and are kept secret/sacred.
Yet, many here did believe. And all here either believed or cared about someone who attended or believed in something that changed or devolved into something more than entertainment, philosophy, a religion or spiritual experience into the antithesis of what they originally were drawn to...
That they were not alone, they were special. That no matter what circumstances, events, experiences they had, everything was purposeful, and they were evolving children of God. That an unseen brotherhood was watching over them and helping them grow. A divine presence and purpose was within them, and all they needed to do was learn how to cultivate the garden, to turn on, develop the endocrine system and allow the brain to function to it's full potential. That miracles were possible, but nothing more than a better understanding of solid science and principles, when, rightly understood, followed and practiced, would heal the body, allow rejuvination of the body, mind, and the awareness that unbelievably you created your perception, and eventually all of reality around you by your thoughts, feelings, attitude, focus. That thoughts held in mind, created the illusion of the dimensional life around you. Change your thoughts, you change your life. Focus upon wealth, fortune, health, your soul-mate, love, was all that you needed* *when these things didn't happen, it was either because you were unable to focus, not dedicated or because the resulting experience had to be experienced FIRST (poverty) before great wealth.
And in the words of Forrest Gump,
"that is all I have to say 'bout that"
Happy New Year!
Faith and Science are two completely different animals.
I had faith in my sister turns out I was wrong. I could not measure or prove how she would behave, but, I did have faith.
RSE clouds the issue of spirituality and science.
Quantumphysics which is a legitimate branch of physics has no place in arguments or discussions regarding spirituality which is faith based. Spiritually is based upon hope. You cannot measure hope.
Sure I have hold a great deal of faith. But I don't expect a miracle anytime soon and I sure won't go down the rabbithole of Quantumspirituality to try to find it or prove it or defend it.
magpi- the question was directed at me, right?
I was in rse for 8, in Yelm for 10, years - attending events from 1993 until 2001. I was looking for 'true' happiness, total fulfilment from within, mastering myself/my emotions, becoming totally free from dependence on others for anything physically or emotionally. I was never particularly interested in obe's of even remote view. I did like the idea of having an influence on reality thru focus such as making cards, c&e, etc.
If you want my current take, I feel that what I was looking for was ultimately unattainable. Not completely without merit, just impossible to achieve from the angle I was going at it. Of course, with that comes the guilt of never being good enough and becoming more and more dependent on 'the teacher' for answers to all the inconsistencies. Thankfully, I came to my senses and am in a much happier and stable, even if not 'perfect' (by my former standards) place in my life.
We all had our reasons. I can honestly say that I never quite "accepted" it. The teachings I was interested in. But could never accept the contradictions. I did come out of believing in myself. Nor would I trade the field or tank experience.
I wasn't there when people did paradise beach. Or, long hours in the field. The forrest was interesting.
A part of me forever. I'm not throwing the baby out w/the bath water.
You have missed the point. I have nothing to defend. All you are interested in is arguing and debating. That's an attack..not a discussion. Perhaps the imagined betrayal by your sis has to do w/perception-yours.
Science takes the mystery out of everything, and I like mystery.
Science leaves nothing sacred, and I like to keep a sense of the sacred.
Science contradicts itself...scientists are always debating/feuding against one another...because they do not agree. If science is so perfect, why should this be so?
Science evolves as people do...yesterday's science is today's old wives tale, or fallacy.
Science should not be worshiped like a God.
It does not take much to pick holes in most sciences.
Science makes me unhappy...
Could we say, that to some ex-students, RSE was better before "science" chimed in?
Who is so wise that they can arbitrate the difference between a science and a pseudoscience?
"Social Science" (which I studied) might be classified as a pseudoscience.
Perceptual Psychology, though, has about the same thing to say as RSE. It's not what's happening out there, it's how you interpret it that counts...it's what's going on in your mind or what is interpreted from what is impacting your senses that counts...so, in that sense, you do "create your own reality".
Problem comes, when you try to seek agreement from others, to validate your experience.
I am happiest when I make up my own mind, and allow others to do the same.
I am happy when I do not require permission or agreement.
Just my two cents.
You said; "If you want my current take, I feel that what I was looking for was ultimately unattainable. Not completely without merit, just impossible to achieve from the angle I was going at it."
Considering the sending and receiving experience that you and I had at my event....I would have to agree. We are working with phenomenon that is merely conjecture at this point. To base ANY real data upon this fool JZ's explanation, as flawed as it has been over time....is ridiculous.
More serious examination is required before definitive statements can be assured.
Oh....and littlewiseone (good name, btw...);
You MUST know that I'm not against ANYTHING spiritual....it's been my entire life's quest and the entire reason I ended up at RSE to begin with....and left it too, for that matter. I am just stating what is about what is true and easily reasoned or observed. If I said anything that is refutable, then by my honor, refute it and I will gladly bow and stand corrected.
Happy to read you Christel
lost in space
well said. some things cant be measured and or tested. i dont find quantum physics boring. that's not why i couldn't watch bleep/hole. i dont believe that God can be measured or explained by science.