JZ is very fond of bringing up that "scientific study" that used "all the latest instruments" that proclaimed her "not a fake"[sic]

It appears they studied her physiological reactions while in a normal state and then in her trance state and concluded there were changes that "couldn't have been faked"

Leaving aside the obvious questions about the study like, who funded it, pre-existing bias, controls etc., does anyone know if JZ submitted herself to a polygraph or a series of polygraphs to determine whether she believes she is telling the truth about her Ramtha experience and her motives?

If JZ was willing to submit to rigorous testing for 18 months to prove she isn't a fake and a fraud surely a series of polygraph tests administered independently wouldn't be a problem.

Does anyone know if the study included polygraph.

Does anyone know if the types of controls they put JZ through can legitimately not be manipulated consciously by the subject?

I believe polygraphs can be manipulated depending on the skill of the operator.

Anyone know?

DM

What would be measured by the polygraph test, and what was perhaps measured by the other tests, would be whether Judy herself believes she is channeling Ramtha...and if she does, this would not in itself prove his existence in her body.
A polygraph measures changes in biorythm and neural activity, it is not a measure of actual truth. If the subject believes what they are saying, in their system of thought, they are not lying, and so, even if they are mistaken in their belief, the instruments would register what they said as "true". Just as, if a murderer has amnesia about his or her crime, and they are asked if they commited the murder, they would pass when they said "no".
Perhaps, though, it would be of tremendous interest to former students to know whether Judy sincerely believes, herself, in Ramtha, or wether it is all a cynical put-up job.
I have not explored the nature of the other tests...but, Judy has hit on something, or Ramtha has...if your mind believes something is happening, whether it is or not, it will produce corresponding changes in your body. So, you do, in that sense, create your own reality.
Also, in biofeedback, people can be trained to consciously initiate physiological variations in their body...

yap, yap
Look at the phenomenon of stigmata...are these people sincere...yes...have they actually had nails driven into parts of their bodies? No.

I posted an earlier thread connected to this subject titled ...”The scientific study.


Judith constantly refers to the "scientific study" conducted on her property on February 8-9, 1997. as proof… particularly the findings and comments made by Dr.Ian Wickram's


“She’s not faking it,” added Ian Wickramasekera of San Francisco’s Saybrook Institute.
“we got results which could not have been manipulated”!


In reading the following article bear in mind that Wickram used to treat victims of sexual abuse.


David.

Link…

http://pub43.bravenet.com/forum/3633497066/show/630759



*******************************************

Trust Busted: One of the female patients who says sex was part of Dr.Ian Wickram's 'treatment' now says, 'He violated us in every way.'

Wickram, 64, pleaded no contest in August to felony charges of sexually exploiting his patients. A name well known to most alternative-psychology practitioners, Wickram is a frequent lecturer and speaker, giving addresses at conferences like the 1999 fall meeting of the Biofeedback Society of Illinois at Loyola Medical Center, the 1998 Biofeedback Society of California's 24th-annual convention "The Heart and Mind of Biofeedback," and "Brain and Behavior: Allies in Health," the 17th-annual Biofeedback Society of California's Conference in 1991.
Stanford Medical School, where Wickram worked on a contract basis from 1998 until he was arrested in April, sheds very little light on the situation. "We are cooperating with law enforcement authorities on this matter," Stanford spokesperson Michelle Brandt tells Metro, when asked for the results of the school's independent investigation.

Stanford's world-renowned Dr. Ian Wickram had a reputation for excellence in alternative medical treatments using biofeedback. But there was more to his treatments of young, female clients than meets the eye.

By Allie Gottlieb Metroactive News & Issues | A Touch Too Much.

Link…

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/10.10.02/wickram-0241.html

well it certainly seems the "methodology" leaves allot to be desired.

Are we just to accept their word for it that results can't be manipulated? What are the EXACT tests did they do on her? It all seems very conveniently vague.

Why doesn't she just take a series of polygraphs? Even though its not admissible in a court of law, it gives a pretty fair idea when someone is being dishonest.

The tests she did take aren't admissible in a court of law either, I am quite sure, so why not go for the old standby of the lie detector test?

I have read that sociopaths are able to manipulate the polygraph machine because they lack conscience. But a good polygraph operator can break through that.

A polygraph can only determine what she believes to be true, not what is true.

I think it would be very illuminating to learn what Ms. Knight believes and doesn't believe.

Funny, but the most logical test she should have submitted herself for is the polygraph.

Doesn't look like she did.

Wow, that guy is heinous.
Bet Judy would say, just because he is a rapist, and violates his hypocratic oath, doesn't mean his findings aren't genuine...
And, I will say, "distinguished" takes on a whole new meaning, and not a good one.

DM,

I have spoken at lenght with both Krippner and Ian Wikershram (spelling?)

The accounts of thier study are far from the spin that JZ puts on it, in fact, in some parts seems quite at odds. they also had quite alot to say about the students and their personalities that they had tested.

So much to share... Such slow fingers to type..
Chuckle..

Hopefully many of us here will meet on the weekend of the 27th-28th this month..
From what I understand..The so called "scientific tests" were presented for review
but were rejected as to unscientific ….to even be reviewed!

David.

Getting together on the week-end of the 27&28 is a great idea, looking forward to it.

Will wine be served?

Sure wish I could be there. "Blue Body" dance is just so much fun! (if you don't have a heart attack while you're at it, or get trampled by your neighbor)

(Are blinders required? "A Master always carries (his) blinders as we were reprimanded when out for the "walk" and suddenly the teacher changed the tables on us and instructed us to look for our cards. Most didn't have their blinders. Oh, oh oh.)

I would love to have feedback by email of the meeting, if anyone I've emailed with feels comfortable. I have another commitment that weekend. Enjoy the fruit of your courageous actions and in helping one another.

Datasdu