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Is this the Abraham that I have heard some ex-rse people have gravitated toward...? Does anyone know anything about 'Ask and it is given' written by Hicks? I have a friend who's family member is heavily into to this.
Also brings up a somewhat philosophical question: If someone is reading books that have these kind of messages, would they still be considered to be in a cult, even if there is no such established thing like the school?
Joe Sz, if you read this can you elaborate on the difference between judging a group (or person) based on behaviors vs beliefs?
Yes, this is the same Abraham/Hicks as is connected to Esther Hicks and the movie, The Secret.
Abraham claims to be the originator of the Law of Attraction. Yet, I have a book called The Keys to Mastery or something like that ... by Charles Haanel. I believe it's chapter 14 (I've posted the facts before) that is titled, The Law of Attraction.
Looking into the background of the people involved, there are more red flags, too.
But, their presentation is very positive, gentle, and might be considered the opposite of Ramther's rough n' tough military style. So, that attracts some people. They simply give a teaching, and there is no physical demands made (field, tank, etc).
I have a local friend who keeps pushing it on me, though "nicely". I told her, I believe it is just another cult and I don't need it.
I, too, see it as a cult.
I find ex ramsters gravitating to other groups;
ie Phillip, Nexium, Abraham, The Secret, Landmark,
the Forum.....they seem to still be searching for
From what I know about them, which is not extensive, I would not personally call them a cult.
I think an group of people sharing similar beliefs have the potential of becoming a cult.
I agree with Joe S that it isn't the beliefs as much as the behavior.
I think most people search to find meaning in their lives, or to make it "better"... This is a class that isn't normally taught in school!!... "How to be Happy and Fulfilled 101"....
Ironically, I happen to be reading and listening to some CDs by Tony Robbins, the motivational coach and speaker... He actually has a lot of the same ideas that I hear from RSE, ie, create your day, etc... It makes me wonder if he's another one JZ lifted from and distorted to serve herself... The difference with Robbins, is that he acknowledges a power higher than himself, God, and as far as I know, doesn't encourage the use of wine or demand you take classes from him twice a year in order to "maintain your standing"...
Oh -- and he's also not preaching about the end of the world as we know it!!
The work of Charles Haanel is fully credited in the book "The Secret"--he is listed in the Biographies section, along with a lot of other thinkers. One does not have to pay for a class or attend any seminars or attend any group to read this book or watch this CD.
I am not going to waste one friggin' minute worrying about whether The Secret book or CD constitutes a cult!! Not when, right now, I have 2 friends who used to be long-time RSE students who are VERY damaged. One is paranoid and delusional and just spent time in a psychiatric ward; the other has developed PTSD, severe depression, feels nothing but blackness, and is sounding scarily suicidal.
Yes, some books have attracted lots of people to participate in discussion groups--think Conversations with God, or A Course in Miracles. I know of people who have spent years involved with those books, and they are as healthy and well-adjusted as could be.
IMO, there are plenty of REAL cults out there doing REAL damage to people to be concerned about!!
Thanks for the replies. If I understand it correctly, Hicks is also coming from a somewhat 'religious' angle...? As in God is a 'he' and so forth. Just curious about that since trying to get away from the whole mainstream god concept had a lot of people seeking out ramtha in the first place.
Oneahand- I do understand your point but Conversations w/god wasn't written by a channeled entity (right...?), I don't know enough about the miracles course to comment. And from what I gather Hicks does offer workshops of some sort although they seem relatively reasonably priced ($195 for a full day).
Also, I guess if we talk about behaviors vs beliefs I think it would be possible for a person to display disturbing behaviors that are born out of beliefs found in books even if those are not connected with a group or 'cult'. Although, can we say that is a result of the beliefs put forth in the book or just a disturbed person to begin with... ? Sorry, I'm really just thinking out loud, I don't really expect an answer since this is obviously probably not answerable.
Marie, I definitely think there are some clear similarities between ramtha and Tony Robbins. I guess it shows again that she's really not that original. On a side note, I don't think Robbins' acknowledgment of a higher power makes him any more legit, but that's just my personal opinion.
Actually I take that back, $195/day isn't really that reasonable is it? It averages out to more than most RSE events.
James Allen's Book.... As a Man Thinkest was prior to ALL of the above.
Hicks is just a new pacakage JOB of old writing of others before them.
the Secret is NOT NEW... it has been around and similary to Allen's book... and Secret of the Master's book many of these New Age ideas have been here from long long ago.
Most of JZ's Stuf was written before.
It is ALL about Marketing and Packaging.
Opra on The Secret
There are cults, and there are destructive cults. The difference is labeled to differentiate, what MAY be characterized by the differences between the Abraham vs. RSE material.
OneHand, I KNOW (I've done the homework), that there are "damaged" people who have left the Abraham teachings. They dutifully and unknowningly, gave up their MIND to the teaching - listening to the CD's daily, or often, and "creating" their reality, while their world around them fell apart. They realized somethin's wrong - they didn't create their wildest dreams or even their more ordinary dreams. They got scalded. Then, they got out and started creating reality in THIS time, not the fantasy time in their head.
I assume you're unaware of the "damaged" people that left that teaching, by your post. They do exist.
Having attended workshops on cults and the recovery process, I have also met some extremely "damaged" people from cults that we've never heard mentioned on this forum. There are MANY, thousands, tens of thousands, of cults out there. In my mind, when someone's free thinking and actions are compromised because they've been effectively brainwashed into partial truths, one is not worse/better than another. The OUTCOME is bad. Period.
That's why FACTNet grew to the incredible size that it is. It offered a service to all of these people via their website/msg forum. The need is surely there. Here, our main focus is obviously, RSE ex-students and family/loved ones. We stated that if at the beginning of a thread, the topic is mentioned "otherwise", it could stand. So, that's why this one is here. If it helps one person, it has done a good job, imo.
My two cents.
The reason there appear to be similiarities between JZ/"Ramtha" and Tony Robbins is because of Greg Simmons. He was the "right hand man" for Tony Robbins
and then came to work for JZ where he has been ever since.
Wow, interesting story about Oprah. It actually worries me a little that she so wholeheartedly endorses the 'your thoughts create reality' thing but at least she qualified it somewhat at the end.
Yes, I was aware of the Tony Robbins/Greg Simmons connection.
Watcha, what are the differences between a cult and a destructive cult...? Thanks for confirming that it is possible to emerge damaged from something like this, that was my gut feeling too.
>>The reason there appear to be similiarities between JZ/"Ramtha" and Tony Robbins is because of Greg Simmons. He was the "right hand man" for Tony Robbins<<
Egad!!... That loud crash you just heard was me chucking my Robbins CD out the window -- I had bought these about two? years ago I think.. and only listened to a couple at that time before I decided I didn't REALLY want to do the things I had been procrastinating on... I picked them up again this week because I had been feeling sluggy and like I am not moving forward and thought I just needed some "motivation" and "recharging"... It actually did catch my attention when I heard Robbins on the CDs talking about "creating your day".. and... "most people consider the word 'discipline' to have a bad meaning but it is really a GOOD thing!".... I liked though, as I said, that he acknowledged a power greater than himself... but in addition to that he made a statement that said "I have no desire to be your GURU".. and that kind of spoke to me as "I WANT to be your guru".... He says he's just "your personal coach"... coach/ guru .. kind of the same thing... I also liked, but was wary when I heard him say things about "his greatest desire is to serve and help others".. and I guess the reason I perked up when I heard him say that, is just from reading this board and I know that is some of JZ's schtick...
So then... when is it just motivational and inspiration, and when does it become.... using you??
PS -- and this should be an example to anyone out there who is kicking themselves for believing in RSE.. Just how easy it is to trust.... I won't go into the time I paid someone else $6k to help me "start my business".. because I was afraid if I didn't, I would fail.. and the time I trusted someone else to help me with another business for almost a year with nothing to show for it except bad debt at the end... and the time I trusted relationships to really mean what they said.... blah blah blah...
sigh..............Learn from our mistakes...
"but Conversations w/god wasn't written by a channeled entity (right...?),"
conversations with God was written, if I remember correctly, by a former Mafu
Eeks! I didn't know that about Conversations w/god. Doesn't surprise me though.
The fellow who wrote conversations with God, did not study with Mafu.
He was a morning disc jockey in Meford, Oregon when his life fell apart, lost his job, family etc and sat down one day and starting channeling via automatic writing.
mmmmmmmmmm, never liked the book "Conversations with God" - i remember picking it up when it first came out and after reading the first page something in me didn't not like what he had to say at all - so i never read any of them even though people around me loved it -
we have all throughout our lives had magical things happen to us - at least i have and i have created what i have wanted, not all the time - i once thought about the same thing every day for a month and the exact scene happened just how i had pictured it to happen - i think we all have that ability - we are born with it and it is just that no one has told us about our wonderful ability - ever - so when these schitters come out of the wood work and give us an explanation, we follow them like lemmings - i think as human beings we are able to do so much and we all do it every day -
i stop feeling guilty a while back (after i stopped reading and listening to anyone else but myself, which by the way, is the most freeing thing i have ever done) - thinking i have to get things done, do stuff - but now i say "hey, what the puck, so what if i don't do anything and just vege for a while" - it' is good for us to do - i think we are programmed to push ourselves too much -
anyway, thought i'd add my 2 cents worth........
Hey, about the Abraham thing - weren't the couple in Amyway or something like that, so they know how to market and sell a product?????
for more about Hicks and Amway or network marketing
1. cult: [academic] Intense devotion to a person, object or idea often accompanied by ritual. eg, cult of a saint, cult of crystal power, cult of scientism, cult of 'intelligent design', flat earth cult.
That 1 defintion carries no judgement, merely descriptive.
This next one carries judgement:
2.cult as a malignant group. spurious sect, controversial self-sealing system with a charismatic leader, bogus medical treatment.
It helps to avoid "cult" altogether unless you have established a definition and specified use with your audience. Malignant, destructive, deceptive, high-demand, are useful adjectives if you need to use cult and mean something BAD.
I often just a 'manipulative and deceptive group'
Doing a quick google search I didn't find anything to substantiate that Walsch was a Mafu follower.
Joe, thanks for those definitions. So essentially the word cult can be benign or volatile depending on the definition used. I would say most people think of the second meaning when hearing the word. I like the alternative terms you mentioned.
It's so interesting how our understanding and feeling towards certain words changes as we gain knowledge. For instance, I remember clearly the physical reaction I used to have when people would call rse a cult. Now, it's like saying 'left toe' - nothin'!
Conversely, before entering the school the word 'ignorant' had a really derogatory meaning to me, but since then I just always see it as 'not knowing', which has no judgement on it.
someone who was a Mafu follower who found the EMF site mentioned about the
person who wrote Conversations with God.
I was just going with their knowledge and information, as I had never been involved with Mafu and they had. so, who knows?
I know him from his work in Medford. I also spoke with him once. A friend asked me if I would help him out because this was the period in his life, pre his awakening if you will, that my friend, who also studied with Mafu and worked at the same station, thought I could help him sort out his many problems and difficulties.
At that time he didn't seem open to creating his own reality or that was the impression I got from him during our very long phone conversaiton. His life, evidently, continued it's down hill slide until he hit rock bottom and that cartharsis is what led to to his having some pretty powerful experiences and openings.
I was very happy to see him come out of that "victim" consciousness and get his life back on track. Sometimes people have to hit rock bottom before they just surrender to life and slowly work their way back on their feet and he's done that very well, I think.
Say, Watcha, just to set the record straight, if you go back and look at my post, I was talking about The Secret book/CD (because you and Tree had mentioned The Secret), not Abraham/Hicks. I have no opinion on Abraham/Hicks as I never got involved with any of their material.
I mentioned A Course in Miracles because I do have some experience with that. I briefly studied ACIM over 20 years ago. It was supposedly channeled by a Jewish atheistic psychologist from Columbia University, Helen Schucman. The story I heard was that she was never involved in anything metaphysical until she spontaneously began to channel messages from a spirit she believed to be Jesus. I also heard that she herself never got involved that much in studying the 3-book course that "came through" her. I have several long-time friends who were in weekly ACIM study groups for many years, and imo ACIM is not a destructive cult.
I have read a lot of the Conversations with God books, and have met Walsch a few times. According to the Joe Sz definition of destructive cult, I do not believe that CWG fits that description.
On the other hand...as you can see, I am upset at the havoc that the RSE teachings have played in the lives of so many people, especially the mental illness my two former Ramster friends are going through. JZ trumpets the money she gives for college scholarships (smart PR), but she really ought to write large checks to all the hospitals, free medical clinics and psychiatric treatment facilities in western Washington State, because she sure has sent a lot of patients their way (with WA State taxpayers picking up the tab).
"I am upset at the havoc that the RSE teachings have played in the lives of so many people, especially the mental illness my two former Ramster friends are going through. JZ trumpets the money she gives for college scholarships (smart PR), but she really ought to write large checks to all the hospitals, free medical clinics and psychiatric treatment facilities in western Washington State, because she sure has sent a lot of patients their way (with WA State taxpayers picking up the tab). "
not to mention the employees who have to go to St Pete's because they have no health insurance.
because, if, legally, you have less than 50 employees (hence, that is why she has
"contractors" as employees) one does not have to spend that ever-so-green-dough on anyone else but herself.
oh yes, then tell them, they do NOT need health insurance, because they can heal
Look at St. Pete's book for the number of staff (not to mention students) that have gone there for a free hand out.
Onehand...I just commented on what I had to say about that entire topic, based on my experience. Also, in response to another post, there is a connection cited between the Hicks and Amway, I believe, that was ...well I'll just say a red flag. It's already been posted about.
I totally hear you about your friends and also about St. Pete's. I've heard the St. Pete's stories for years. I even knew a few folks who worked there and shared stories about the Ramsters who would come in.
It's very sad that there are ex-students who suffer on ANY level, as they do, once they're out. That's one reason this forum is here. Compassion for others.
LWiseone said, "So essentially the word cult can be benign or volatile depending on the definition used."
I appreciate Joe's post with the references.
I think it makes sense, that depending on the intent assigned to the word by the person saying it, determines what it meant for them, you know what I mean ? The word "cult" itself is (obviously) a loaded term, and some people have told me that they purposely avoid using the word. They prefer to use words such as "high pressure group", or similar. Seems it can become a matter of semantics. Or possibly a matter of degree.
Neal Donald was DATING a Mastery Progam Follower of Mafu PRIOR to writing his books... he was involved for about 6 to 9 months...
Of course he would NOT mention Mafu... BUT... if you were ever involved with Mafu.. you would know his books are based on those teachings
Yes.. he was with Mafu... and THEN LEFT.. and worte his books.
When I knew him he was married and not studying with Mafu. Who did he date? He was married when he called me in the early nineties, at the request of another Mafu person who worked with him. We spoke for a long time, with me mainly sharing the wisdom I got from Mafu - wisdom that had helped me gain empowerment in my life.
I was in the mastery programs and he was never in those programs during that time. In fact, he was having so many money and other personal problems he wouldn't have afforded those programs even if he wanted to participate.
And he didn't have a major shift in his life till he hit rock bottom and started channeling via automatic writing. He was living in an unheated tent at a campground in Ashland during that difficult period for him and it was in that desperation that he started channeling through automatic writing.
The difference is in degree, IMO, between an AMWAY centred life and an RSE centred life...well, I note some other differences.
At least, AMWAY admits it is a sales and marketing scheme...and no sooner do you join, not only do they inform you up front they want to manipulate you, they will give you a textbook and FREE TAPES on the subject, so that you can then learn to manipulate others...because, the better you get at that the more money your "upline" makes, and, the more "downlines" you have and successfully learn to, and teach to, manipulate, the more money your upline makes...
My (ex)husband was heavily involved some years ago...and kept the tapes..and I believe one of them is narrated by Ms. Hicks, channel of Abraham, so there may well be a connection.
Another difference...I know people who have made it big in Amway...but it appears there are not that many people, perhaps only a small select group of "elite" students who have made it in any way at RSE.
And as a "Faith Shopper" I have sampled both Ramtha and Abraham...(nibbles only) and all I can say is, Ramtha made me feel excited, but a little grim, whereas Abraham made me feel peaceful and happy...perhaps both of those sets of feelings either intensify or evaporate upon further investigation.
Anthony Robbins, and NLP, are a little more complicated...I would say, Mr. Robbins is an educator, and sells education, but his motivational style may give rise to a "guru"like aura surrounding him...The same ex husband owns a series of 24 tapes by Mr. Robbins...and, no, he doesn't say anything about needing him forever, or attending his classes or lectures, or that if you don't fork over whatever you paid for the tapes twice a year, he will program you to self-destruct, or anything like that. I did not listen to all of the tapes, but their effect on me was, well, motivational, in positive directions, in my own life..and there is no "group" I had to belong to, or my ex had to belong to, to gain access to those tapes.
Lost -- yeah, after my iniitial freak out about RSE's Greg Simmons prior association with Tony Robbins, I thought oh that's silly, I really have no idea WHY Simmons no longer works for Robbins ... Maybe Robbins realized he wasn't what HE wanted on his team and asked him to leave.. Or maybe Simmons felt Robbins wasn't "capitalizing" on his potential guru style the way Simmons would have liked him to... I think it's probably more appropriate and logical to think that Simmons lifted what he learned from Robbins and passed it along to JZ to warp and pervert ... I listened to more of Robbins CDs after the previous threads of this post and I agree, he seems really just, well, motivational... and has so far, had the positive affect I was looking for when I listened to them... His subject matter is really just how to get yourself moving and into action, not spiritual or godlike in nature...
Dr Greg dabbled in Scientology also.
I wonder if he even knew what questions to ask himself in his Clearing Process?
What a neophyte.
It has also been brought to my attention that Judy has met with the "Sea Org".
Oh! Things get very interesting when we bring this into light.