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I thought this would make a fun thread!
I never doubted until I met JZ in person. I had been told how different the 2 are, that you could tell the 'energy' was different, blah, blah, blah. Well, I fully believed it until... I met her. I was actually quite shocked with how similar they were, it was as if she wasn't even trying. Plus, she would talk about things that I KNEW had been discussed at 'the house' in teachings that 'ramtha' would give and it all seemed quite fishy to me. This meeting was only about a year after I had first started and to think that I remained for another 7 years after that!
At first I was so embarrassed that I doubted 'the Ram' but finally I did admit it to my friends and it turned out that everyone had their doubts at one point or another but it was basically explained away with: 'listen to the message not the messenger'. The question is though, if the messenger is a fake then how valid could the message really be...?
So, let's hear when you first doubted and how you dealt with it...
I really didn't believe in 'channeling' and JR was the first I'd seen. When did I doubt? When the 'big guy' came out drunk and spat on the stage. I'd seen DVD's where the message seemed so 'sweet.' Well, this certainly wasn't what I'd signed up for - however, even though it was my beginner's, long-time students were there and said 'he' could 'change on a dime' and 'tries to put people off.' I thought I was being judgmental and let go of my doubts in lieu of the 'message.' The more I went, the less I believed. Then I heard "R" us the phrase, 'oh my heck' - something Judi uses quite a bit. In talking to some who were old-timers after the retreats and after they'd had some wine, it was offered to me that 'judi can imitate R and R can imitate Judi.' I don't know if I ever believed there was channeling going on while I was in Yelm, but from the DVD's I'd seen before with the charming and sweet presentation, I was hoping it was true. There had been too many letdowns in religion for me, and nowhere could explain it all. Here was someone who was; and having a priest as a teacher sealed it for me, well, nearly. I believed, but yet didn't. It was a "what if this is really so?" Then I began monitoring my thoughts, (oh dear, no fantasies please!) It was disturbing to me, as though the 'creature' could possibly see my thoughts! What was the difference between the bearded god writing down all and this? Then the teachers, teaching at different places and times but NOT consistent in the teachings, and even unable to pronounce the very words taken from buddhism and other eastern religions. I overheard one teacher telling young children after field was called and some were lingering near the fence, to not look for their cards (blindfolds were off then) 'because their god would be very disappointed in them.' What a load!
Yet I still wonder, why did I go back again and again?
and do that 'walk' with everyone talking to themselves!
Thanks for the thread, littlewiseone !
Recently, I had occasion to speak with Hal Mansfield, who is very, very experienced with high demand groups, such as RSE. One thing he mentioned, was how interesting it would be to ask/find out when students had doubts during their tenure at RSE, and what they were.
Some research into this area has shown that virtually everyone in such a group, has at least one moment of serious doubt about what they're doing. All the more reason to keep some unfettered contact with family/loved ones in a "cult", when you are not...waiting for their Moment of Doubt !
I'd have to think about my doubt while there. I had it in phases, on and off, for years. But for specific incidents, I'd have to really look backward.
You're right, too, that there are always excuses offered to students who dare to express doubt.
Several years back, right before I was a staff member, I had a very good friend who was on staff.
WE had gone to the field to "create our day" and stare at the sunrise.
Then we had an excruciating long field.
(no breakfast for quite some time....noon or so).
Come to find out from my friend that JZ was having coffee with Linda Evans
I thought to myself here, "gee, just who is calling the shots here?"
The staff member then commented,
as a staff member, you have to ignore things like this because it is "Ramtha" who is running the event.
Ramtha in charge ? Hahahahaha....hardly.
The thing folks ought to keep in mind, in my opinion, is something Christel has mentioned before, as well as myself. In JZ's attorney's response to the WA State Attorney General, to Christel's filed complaint, Atty. Kraukl stated that JZ's school doesn't say it's going to provide the service of enlightenment, but it's a school designed to give people a better/happier life. I am paraphrasing and this not a direct quote. I think I've relayed the gist of what was said.
It's a lie. As we know, we are told that we are being taught the keys to enlightenment, which if you only do the disciplines, you will attain christhood....become a God-woman or God-man REALIZED.
If Christel reads this post, maybe she can help me out and cite the part of the response, that I am talking about ?????
I think that was accurate whatcha.
THAT was very surprising to have seen that from her lawyer as it was always my understanding that
we would achieve christhood in seven years.
Well, we were told it was a seven year school and the goal of the school - the outcome - was God-woman, God-man, realized, which was, as I recall, a notch "above" christhood.
How'd that go ? master, adept, christ, god-realized?
Going to fold more laundry now, and live my REAL life, not the fantasy one in my head, that I stopped wasting precious time on.
I AM a remarkable life, and so are the rest of us, because we're alive. That's my two cents. How dare JZ insinuate that we are all (globally) anything BUT remarkable. We have the gift of human life. How sad for her that she can't see that. She acts like we need to fix what's already perfect...guess that's HER reality !
Perhaps Ramtha (TM) really said, "I'm here to help you get rich."
there was a chrismasevent.the power was down.outside there were workers from the powercompanie to repair the lines which were down due to winds.i was late.actualy punctual.but they started earlier with the event.so i missed the 2 glass wine gulp down and was relativ sober because i dident feel like catching up.it started very schoollike not like the typical wineparty.i was expecting some spiritual teachings worth my money....during the event the power came back on and ramtha stated:thats what i manifested for you.and evrybody went crazy about it.at this moment i knew if the big ram takes the credit for work done by some villigers which hanged their a.s.e.s in the wind that the power get repaired.he is a poor powerless selfdeluted showoff.
ok -- what I put between brackets in my last post didn't show up so I am posting again!!
"I AM a remarkable life, and so are the rest of us, because we're alive. That's my two cents. How dare JZ insinuate that we are all (globally) anything BUT remarkable. We have the gift of human life. How sad for her that she can't see that. She acts like we need to fix what's already perfect"
and to that *I* replied:
after lockdown bevore the end of the year jz decided to buy a new soundsystem [rumours:600 000$]imagine everybody waits on the days to come after 9 11 and she straightens out her taxes with a nice christmaspurches.so even in judies cameradcircles were some upset minds.at an eveningevent she let this camerad take a mike and he makes a statment that he dont understand why they buy in times like this an expencive soundsystem.he comes for the teachings and he dont mind some cracling in the system.jzr went off on him and removes him from the audience.this guy dident leave so her red guards went out and manhandelt him pretty rough [someone told me he got pushed , fell and bleeded]then jzr went up and down her stage and was pumping adrenalin.she couldent hide behind her unemotional rammask.that one let me take my doubts serious.i was discusted and stood up after a while to leave.then and that crowned it.after hearing from the big chahuna how he loves everyone and will bring us to enlightment she states sitting in her chair:that she knows that she lost some students tonight but she gives a sch.. because next year r comming new ones.so that made the comitment to her students realy clear to me.what an extraordinary hyrophant.
Great post, ex. This isn't the first time that JZ has had a major problem with anyone questioning or critizing her. A former member of JZ's inner circle (Bev D) told a group of former Ramtha followers (I was there) in the early 1990s that when "Ramtha Dialogues" got letters that questioned or criticized anything, the staff had to hide them from her. If she saw 1 letter like that, she would be raving mad all day and couldn't focus on anything else.
OneH said, "when "Ramtha Dialogues" got letters that questioned or criticized anything, the staff had to hide them from her. If she saw 1 letter like that, she would be raving mad all day and couldn't focus on anything else."
Wow...Ol' JZ must love this website, then! She can't hide from this, though she can pay staff to read it for her and report back. Like she paid Mike W to attend and take notes from the LARSE gathering last September.
What goes around, comes around, as they say.
I have never attended the School but I've known about it since 1996. I visited WA. on business and met a student from the school who used to send me tapes, videos etc.
I found it interesting but could not commit as I am not a "joiner" by nature. I practice my own diciplines which consist of Buddhist and Hindu chants, meditation and the study of Hermetics.
"The Two Paths" video is the one that "put the cherry on the cake". As you all know, Ramtha got drunk and obnoxious. I notice that that video is no longer available....small wonder!
As one who lost a brother and a old friend to a drunk driver, I have "0" tolerance for such behavior. It was really stupid for JZ/Ramtha to come up with such a so called ritual. I live in Europe where wine is consumed in a much greated quantity than in the States and water is always served to counteract the dehydration that is caused by the alcohol. Also there are additives in red wine(yes even the expensive ones)that are dangerous for asthmatics.
It was also the "apex of stupidity" for JZ/Ramtha to involve students in business ventures.
I view JZ Knight as rather bright but lacking in sophistication as illustrated by a certain "tackyness".I also believe that she is probably suffering trauma and dissociation.
Those scientists who studied her had no clue as how to "test a spirit". They should have made a study of Hermetics, especially the works of Franz Bardon and, of course the Kaballah before proceeding.Then, they would have a "clus" as to the technique for questioning a "spirit".Those so called tests proved nothing except the JZ's blood pressure was elevated.
It is shocking to me that the health,well-being, and safety of students were not even considered during events.This shows a lack of compassion which, is a chacteristic of an enlightened person.
I am so happy to have found this site, which I did by following links from Wikipedia. I wish all of you recovering "Ramsters" the very best. Please keep strong and have no fear. Your enlightenment is your responsibility alone. Develop your own path as it is the only one that counts.
Thank you for such a compassionate and observant post. It meant alot to me.
Cool...I didn't even know we were listed on Wikipedia. Thanks for posting, and also for pointing that fact out.
EMF itself is not posted on Wikipedia,but if one follows certain links, this site can be easily found.
I was seriously considering attending a beginner event as I viewed "Creating Personal Reality" a number of times and it looked interesting. This site stopped that idea in it's tracks!LOL...whew!
Whoo Hoo!! for EMF !!