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In the early years of RSE (1989) I could never reconcile the great conflict between the beautiful sounding words and inspiring concepts presented by “Ramtha” and the exhibition before me of the way the RSE organization operated which was in direct contradiction to the teachings presented. I was deluded like many others. There was always something in me that said “this just looks like a cult” but it was reasoned away, well supported by fellow students who also reasoned it away.
The RSE organization has always operated with blatant disrespect for other people. I have learned in life the hard way that what you see is what you get. There is nothing hidden about the petulant, unreasonable displays by JZ Knight. It has surfaced on many occasions throughout the years.
I consider JZ Knight is a very nasty piece of work that ruins people’s lives intentionally as it is obvious after all of these years that what was offered in the first place is not brought into being.
She is the authority that continues to permit “Ramtha” to use her body and physically assault people. She is the authority that breaches local safety regulations and she is the authority that does not investigate or sack staff members that rape other people. She is the authority that denies that RSE involvement initiates suicides. She is the authority that permits “Ramtha” to get the audience so filled with alcohol they engage in debauchery and get DUI’s.
I personally would be delighted to see her be the recipient of the misery she has inflicted upon others. I would be delighted to see her put in a prison of poverty, servitude and ill health as that is what she gives to others.
I can totally empathize with your view.
But how can you tell a sociopath
that which they cannot see?
As a person, JZ is utterly charismatic, charming, sweet, loving, hard working, and several other attributes one would
find in upstanding citizens.
But, it is sort of like telling an alcoholic that which they engage in, is
setting up very harmful, destructive
patterns and relationships. Eventually,
they will lose everything and hit rock bottom. It's just that sometimes we have been hurt
so badly by them, we would like
to see them hit bottom NOW.
Nature and goodness always prevail.
Hi Tree, Needed to get out of it for a while. Great to hear from you.
I consider JZ Knight is a liar and an adept at it. The same types of disrespectful behaviour patterns (in regards to running honest business) were already evident long ago.
There most certainly are events where is is less evident but if you look at the overall picture obvious incidences involving the same type of attitude crop up again and again.
Any other respectful business would address the issues and listen to their customers. JZ Knight is just a bully with a big financial agenda. I do not consider that she cannot see the destruction RSE causes.
There has been plenty of evidence of "Masters" wanting healing ......learn to heal yourself in 8 days of anything.
There is plenty of evidence of impoverished locals that cannot sufficiently fill the arena to maximum capacity so RSE has to go to distant shores to spread the word.
There is plenty of evidence of "Masters" dying including even the most dedicated.
There is plenty of evidence that JZ Knight's bank account fills up at the expense of other people.
There is plenty of evidence that there is almost no consistency at the practices taught amongst anyone and those that did achieve some level of consistency are only consistent at ONE particular practice.
There is also evidence that those that have achieved some level of consistently have not got a suitable improvement for effort put in in their daily lives.
The purpose of any sort of education is to improve one's life. That is the reason that anyone takes on any form of education. There has to be a progressive understanding and consistent, observable ability. It has to be provable in those that have taken the course that the study has proved to be of value in life.
The fragments of observation presented in the RSE arena don't cut it. There is nothing on offer if it does not produce marked results once a customer is out the door.
I do not think JZ cannot see what is obvious. I think think she is a big liar that has her own agenda.
Isn't JZ just running a business? I have to say the one thing I do find disturbing on this forum is the bitterness towards JZ's wealth. Its clear to me that she is a fraud like many others preying on peoples weakenesses, its not a very attractive trait but you guys paid the money over, no-one forced you to. I'm not wanting to put any ex-ramsters down, but its like people who complain about programs on television, turn it off if you don't like it. Stop paying if you don't like JZ making money.
Another thing I dont understand is if you were all becoming masters why didn't you insist on nicer conditions, from what I have read the retreats are pretty awful. I wouldn't camp for anyone, why aren't there proper facilities, luxury rooms with ensuite bathrooms? Why do you have to be treated like cattle to become enlightened. Please don't take offense, as you know I am just an outsider so things that seem obvious to me might not be so to those who have been part of the cult.
Bad personal behavior of these many channels seem to be a pattern.
It creates CONFUSION in a devotees mind becuase the MASTER... is so loving... well, at least at one time,
Perhaps it is us who have created the monster... just think about it... if you have thousands of people wanting to kiss your ass... and throw their money at you in the name of God.. who would say no.
Perhaps it is our own perosnal mistake and responsibioity to be aware... buyer beware.... of make better choices.
Perhaps these channels are the Ying and Yang of a whole being... in any breath demonstrating their TRUE COLORS.. the good, bad and not so nice.
At some point.. I am sure we have all had enought and it is time to simply more on... perhaps that is the greatest lesson.
Aussiegirl, You seem to have rather an unusaul idea of what "running a business" is.
My idea of that is that there is an offer in the marketplace that produces a a benefit for a customer based upon honest, ethical business practice. Laws of commerce are put in place to guard against the unscrupuous. Common sense.
If you buy a faulty product I would presume you would want a replacement. If you buy something that does not do the job stated I would presume you would want your money back because you were influenced by false advertising.
We paid the money willingly for what we thought we would get. It is also correct that you have not been directly involved and have no idea of the abundance of reasons (lies) given that seduce people into continuing.
As the "ancient work" really does not have an exact equivalent on this planet it is very easy for people to get duped for the lack of information. Most of the information on the ancient work comes from books. Some of those are represented as factual and in fact are works of fiction. That is a large part of the problem because what is offered is unknown (unless you have previously studied how cults work.)
If you consider JZ is "just running a business" and yet you yourself consider it is a fraud then you are a liar just like JZ is and continue to support their existence. JZ Knight has people's entire life savings in her financial empire with no way of recovery for those people.
You, like many, confuse "bitterness" ....which is your emotional way of looking at things.....with telling the truth like it really is.
Christel, I actually do run my own successful business, but it is true I would never promise something I can't deliver. Why don't you approach RSE if you haven't got what you paid for, why don't you put in a class action? There's actually no need to call me a liar, I think that's pretty rude. I did prempt my comments by saying I didn't want to offend, and as I have never been part of the school there is a lot I don't have any experience to comment on. But as someone looking in from the outside, there are things that are clearer to me than they would be to you. I just don't see the point in complaining about JZ's wealth if noone wants to do anything about it, all the complaining isn't going to change the situation. Let it go, be passionate about things you can change. Just my view, not intended to upset anyone
Here are some of the reasons for attitudes towards JZ's wealth...According to the teaching of "Ramtha" money should never be a motivation to do anything. The spiritual life is about mind, not money. JZ's ostentatious lifestyle contradicts the teaching of "Ramtha" which creates confusion.
There is a certain greed element present when the registration policy is, "No refunds, no transfers." So if something happens in your life (which you created, of course) and you cannot attend an event which you already paid for, JZ gets to keep your money. That is not a standard business practice in the US.
Check the mailorder policy, "No refunds." This is a violation of federal consumer law which allows anything purchased through the mail to be returned for a full refund within 30 days. Another greed element.
Stricly speaking, she has not earned the money honestly, in my opinion. People are manipulated emotionally, psychologically and mentally without their awareness or knowledge. People keep going back as the result of hypnotic suggestion. So yes, when a person wakes up to what has transpired it is easy to be angry about the money.
When it comes to RSE things are not logical.
many people here on this forum are at various stages of recovery.
This is Christel's angle for some time.
She is at, where she is at.
You cannot fight back
a similar tactic.
She is still in one of the recovery phases.
My belief, and direction, is one for
healing for all,
and a direction within oneself.
Aussiegirl, In addition: your statements are so irrational it indicates to me you are not who you profess to be.
On the one hand you consider the whole thing a fraud and on the other you support JZ running a business that is a fraud (your opinion) and can't understand the people who appear to be "bitter" at the fortune she amasses. Perhaps you would not pay to be treated like a cow. Perhaps you don't have to.
It is well known by many how JZ Knight has engaged in covert, espionage activities over the years to protect her interests. It is well known how the RSE organization deals with dissenters and yes they have enough money to put plenty of time into it.
You have been on this website long enough to understand that one substantiated criminal act of rape has occurred. In light of this your statements are absurd and irrational beyond belief.
It indicates you think the victim of rape chose to pay money for the experience and she should just walk away from it and not pay money anymore and meanwhile you wholly support JZ continuing to take huge amounts of money from the unwitting and uninformed.
It is also known JZ has destroyed other businesses and other "competition." If "Ramtha" is such a hot, GENUINE product it is totally irrational she would have to do that. The results produced in the students lives would speak for themselves. It indicates JZ knows it is a lie and has done for a very long time as the control mechanisms in place to prevent students from attending other channels were already observable in the early years.
I consider in the light of long term evidence that it is not unlikely that JZ Knight or someone closely associated with her would fabricate an Internet identity to waste the time of genuine people and try to subvert any "negative" advertising that threatens the empire.
The world has ways of dealing with fraud. It is common for people to be outraged at it. The only one's who are not outraged and supportive of it are the one's engaging in it for personal benefit. Your presented opinions speak for themselves.
I myself have no common ground of conversation with someone who presents themselves as such a conflict within themselves. Others might.
Christel, I apologise I have obviously touched a raw nerve and I didn't mean to offend. Its up to you to decide if I am genuine or not. I have actually been really honest to the point where my partner's name has been revealed on this forum, something I would have preferred not to have happened. With regards to JZ actions, I am not condoning them at all, and to suggest I am being frivolous about Tree's situation is really not on. Tree has been a wonderful contributer to this forum and a great support to me in trying to come to terms with being in a relationship with a member of RSE. I'm actually quite shocked by your personal attack on me when I was just making an observation.
If JZ is actually commiting fraud then something can be done but it seems to me there is a lot of bitterness regarding her financial situation, it comes out again and again in these forums and it does sound like sour grapes to an outsider. From what I know of RSE (according to my partner) wealth is nothing to be ashamed of, I actually thought that one of the goals of the teachings was financial success! Again I could well be wrong, I know very little of the school.
You know with regards to me supporting JZ in running her business, if she is working within the law but just ripping people off then she is succesfully manipulating the system and its a moral rather than a legal judgement. If its well known that JZ is acting outside the law then something can be done, I imagine that most of it is hearsay and there isn't any hard cold evidence to convict her with.
Probably best for me not to post for a while, I am always a little concerned that my comments will seem inflamatory (after all I live with a ramster and he is uber sensitive to anything I say)
Aussiegirl, I found several more posts inserted whilst writing the above piece .
I do not consider it rude to call someone who supports fraud a liar......just plain fact. I did not actually call you that but stated if that genuinely is your viewpoint I would consider you thus. If someone consistently presents such an illogical presentation I would not consider it is worthwhile to continue a discussion.
If you look through this website you would have seen I have approached RSE by a long submission to the Attorney General's Department. Plenty of others over the years have tried to approach RSE and failed.
The response I got from JZ Knight's lawyer was filled with lies.....paid for with people's assets. As an example the lawyer stated that I was "ideologically opposed to the teachings."
It is totally irrational that someone would spend tens of thousands of dollars to travel to the United States to attend classes for 6 1/2 years to something they are "ideologically opposed to."
The entire submission and the response have been posted on this website.
Aussiegirl, To objectify statements is not personal attack nor intended as such. It was merely clarifying presented statements.
Similar types of reasoning have been presented multudious times on this website by those definitely pro RSE.
Perhaps you did not intend it the way you wrote it. Your later statements indicate it.
p.s. Aussiegirl, I do accept your apology.
I just wanted to chime in here and say that (as has been posted in the past), I don't think ANYone has an issue with JZ's wealth, PER SE.
It's HOW she got the wealth that angers some people. She obtained it by some negative tactics, the details of which have been detailed by the experience of posters on this forum.
The money itself, and her wealth, is not the issue. People will gladly give huge sums of money if they believe they are going to get what the CLAIM THEY ARE PROMISED is. We did that. We were sincere, wanted to evolve our spiritual lives to the fullest (christhood, which we were told we could/would by only doing what we were told to do), and we realized at some point, we were lied to and defrauded, and spiritually raped in the process.
Physical scars can heal. Spiritual scars can't be healed. It's deeply rooted at a soul level to have experienced that level of betrayal/fraud. To do that to another person, I think, is just evil. To do it to build a financial empire, upon the backs of others, is sheer evil.
That's my opinion.
I hope that helps to clarify the issue of JZ's wealth. I don't care if she's the richest woman in the universe, *IF* she has earned her money honestly. But, I don't believe she has earned her money honestly.
There was a time when I revered her for her "work". Now, I have no respect for her, and can't fathom how she can look at herself in the mirror and/or sleep peacefully at night.
AussieGirl wrote: "Isn't JZ just running a business? I have to say the one thing I do find disturbing on this forum is the bitterness towards JZ's wealth. Its clear to me that she is a fraud like many others preying on peoples weakenesses, its not a very attractive trait but you guys paid the money over, no-one forced you to. I'm not wanting to put any ex-ramsters down, but its like people who complain about programs on television, turn it off if you don't like it. Stop paying if you don't like JZ making money"
Yes, Aussie gir, you did touch a raw nerve not just for people who have been in the school for a long time and left and also a new person like me. We are told there are no refunds but what bothered me was when I arrived at the retreat I had to sign a legal document stating all kinds of stuff or else I could not attend - so I signed it as if I hadn't would have lost the money I paid - at least at our retreat for the cost, we had pretty nice lodgings and 3 meals a day and it was warm with the sound of the ocean near by.
Before the retreat I was NOT told that at the retreat I would have to sign a legal document, because if I had known that I would never have paid any money - I do not like signing legal documents without a lawyer seeing it first.....so yes, I am ****** at JZ and her wealth (and I don't have any issues with money)because she actually steals it from people by promising something she can NEVER deliver - yes, you are on the outside - and I really would suggest you attend a retreat, then maybe you will understand what everyone has gone through.......Be careful of the words you use on this forum....people are still healing.
Also did I give permission for RSE to use my credit card this July? No, I didn't but they still used it and then a month later gave me a refund. That is another form of stealing in my eyes.
And By the way, we are not people with weaknesses, we are people who thought RSE was special path to follow in our spiritual path - to evolve into super consciouss beings. Silly me!!!!!!!
I think it would be hard to speak of RSE without including the financial aspect. From her (JZs ) end it is all about the bucks and I Have not seen anything anywhere that would point to anything different.
What are you doing here?
Go back to Aussie Land and sell people whatever you sell them.
I'm not buying any of it.
The problem with you is your without any kind of experience to qualify yourself for THIS chat room.
What do you sell anyway? I want to boycott it because your mission in life is "to help others realize their shortcomings" all in the name of "prophet".
Is it not true that you sell something to help people in bettering their lives whether it be a new pair of wombat lined underwear or maybe its a service where you teach other all that you know.
Unless your in the food service "bizz", don't come around this neck of the woods anymore less I bite you and leave a mark on you that you will never forget.
The people that came to THIS school in Yelm are highly evolved, and the ones that left the school are THE CREAM OF THE CROP.
Go pester the Buddhist.
Aussie Girl......we aren't insecure either.....
Aussiegirl, In your last post you still defend Ms. Knight's right to her wealth against a mountain of evidence on this website and other places to indicate she gets it upon a foundation of cruelty to other people.
Over the years RSE has stolen money from people by not refunding money for events not held; many people have had broken bones and injuries at events; families/marriages have been destroyed; children's lives have been destroyed by losing their parents; JZ and Jeff Knight's Arabian horse scheme fleeced a lot of people and that was taken to court; The Omega scheme that caused a lot of people to lose money was recommended by Ramtha; people age faster from the unnatural financial stress they are placed under by moving to the Yelm area. A reliable source of information told me she knows mothers whose children were sexually molested at the liquor ceremonies. Children were smoking pipe tobacco at event against USA law."Ramtha" has physically and verbally assaulted people.
To say that this appears to an outsider as "sour grapes" is ludicrous unless the person is new to it and has not had sufficient access to information. Such is not the case with you as you have been on this site for some time.
To continue to defend this "right to Ms. Knight's fabulous wealth" viewpoint, in light of this, is such unsound reasoning that I do not think you are who you say you are.
JZ Knight like most cult leaders exhibits an extreme need to control other people and will go to extraordinary lengths to do so.
Wow, Wolfman I actually think that was a pretty harsh response to Aussiegirl.
Christel, I don't think I know you personally, so I can't say I know your unique situation and while I do wholeheartedly agree with your view of JZ and her deception and share some of your bitterness (what's wrong with bitterness anyway?), I also think you may have read a little too much into Aussiegirl's question.
I guess I'm going to be the only one so far to actually answer her post on face value and please don't misconstrue my intent, I was in the school for 8 years and have been out for 6 years now.
Quote from Aussiegirl: "Isn't JZ just running a business? I have to say the one thing I do find disturbing on this forum is the bitterness towards JZ's wealth. Its clear to me that she is a fraud like many others preying on peoples weakenesses, its not a very attractive trait but you guys paid the money over, no-one forced you to. I'm not wanting to put any ex-ramsters down, but its like people who complain about programs on television, turn it off if you don't like it. Stop paying if you don't like JZ making money."
I don't see what's wrong with being bitter about seeing someone amass wealth while you struggle to get by, always with the promise that the next event will finally bring you 'one fine morn'/enlightenment.
If you reconsider your question, you might see that telling a ramster to just stop paying the money is like telling an abuse victim to just leave their abuser. Many of the tactics put in place by JZ/r are abusive, as evidenced by the fact that most students who leave will tell you that they very vividly fear that something bad will happen to them as a result of leaving. This fear starts to fade as time goes by of course and nothing happens... nevertheless it shakes the very foundation of one's existence. This is just one example of how people become trapped.
"Another thing I dont understand is if you were all becoming masters why didn't you insist on nicer conditions, from what I have read the retreats are pretty awful. I wouldn't camp for anyone, why aren't there proper facilities, luxury rooms with ensuite bathrooms? Why do you have to be treated like cattle to become enlightened. Please don't take offense, as you know I am just an outsider so things that seem obvious to me might not be so to those who have been part of the cult."
Well, toward the end of my tenure at RSE I actually did start to ask questions and hold the 'teachers' accountable for their claims, but while one is entrenched in the cult it is virtually impossible to demand that which one truly deserves. You see, as students in the school we felt privileged just to BE there, how dare we actually ask those gracious enough to provide us with this wondrous place to make clean bathrooms available, that would just be ungrateful!
Also, Christel has filed a legal complaint that unfortunately was not answered satisfactorily. It may be accurate as you say that JZ has found a way to abuse the system while not being completely outside the law. I don't know enough about the legalities to say for sure, but I am sure that eventually the truth will come out and if there is a legal avenue to pursue, it will be taken.
I do hope that you do not refrain from posting here Aussiegirl, you have plenty to offer and I for one don't suspect you of any ill intent. Forums can be brutal like that since we don't actually know who we're talking to most of the time and you do have to forgive the posters who have taken offense. One can become very gunshy after the things we have experienced.
I´m worried about what I´m reading in this website because several of my friends are about to or have already left their jobs, sold their businesses, sold their houses in order to live in Yelm or some other "safe" place. I have studied the literature about DTC (Wiltsie, Ram...) and I think the only "safe" place on the entire planet is actually Yelm.
My friends are not from the States. That means they will have to live illegally in Yelm without medical care, job, income, families, friends. They seem not to be able to see what they are doing. I think it is madness. Really. They will soon be broke and alone! I´m concerned because I have been on the edge of doing the same and I consider myself a intelligent person, not easy to fool. So how easy can somebody sell us a castle in the air!
What´s your experience? Thanks a lot. I think you are really brave
Aussiegirl, I may be incorrect in assuming you are not who you say you are but I do not know why anyone would continue to hold the viewpoint that Ms. Kight deserves her wealth given the evidence on this site how it has been acquired. I can only understand it if they are an RSE activist because that is the way RSE students are programmed to think and deny what is in front of their very eyes.
I do not think it is justice to take money when the goods offered aren't delivered.
yes, little harsh there
and whatcha said it the best, at least for my view.
you contribute very much here.
I think you may have just hit a raw nerve in some,
and not having been in the same
belief system we fromer students experienced, it is difficult
to tell anyone else who has NOT experienced it. to an outsider, it just looks like common sense to you.
but we were freaking brainwashed.
And one does not know they ARE brainwashed
until they are OUT.
I posted on another thread about my having
been totally turned around by an
ex ramster's exit interview from a cult.
There are SOOOO many internationals here,living in the woods, living in abject
poverty, can'te get back to their country,
some who have relied on the state
for things like brain surgery, etc
In fact, that same woman just stopped me
for 20 bucks in the Post OFfice last week.
I have given her money several times before,
but this last time, it took the cake.
I saw, in front of my eyes, this woman
who was fastly aging, sick, and beggin for 20 dollars all as a result of JZ Knight. (This woman hailed from New Zealand).
A young girl, just flew back to Mexico
(with the help of donations from a wealthy Ramster) becase she thought she
could heal herself from her cancer with
Blue Body. She is flying home to die.
She has three months to live.
If I could get my hands on the exit interview and show you, (if you haven;t seen emough evidence here) you , nor your friends would EVER consider leaving
your countries, your friends, your
People's lives have been utterly ruined.
I´m getting the goosers as I can´t hold my friends back. They are completelly convinced of going to Yelm and they will create fabulous wealth near the Ram. 2 are there already, one will be going with her daughter (taking her out of school etc.) and a fourth one will stay in Yelm after Blue College in October. And I don´t know how many will follow as, if you analyze the material on hand, the only "safe" place on earth will be Yelm.
Thanks for telling me the truth of what is happening there.
Morgana's last post in this thread bothered me so severely that I feel I need to post again how wickedly destructive
this power has become.
I had a garage sale in June.
And of course, I sold all my DTC stuff.
I had, non current ramsters/internationals,
who looked like they had not had a shower
in 3 weeks, had the most hole-y
clothes on, had a few teeth missing,
"Don't you know about the 3 degree axis
shift? We are concerned for you! Make
sure you come back within the next 12 months!!"
(They had asked where I was off to).
I mean, here are people, not able to afford events any longer, no medical
coverage, not on any government assistance
because they are here illegally, no way
to get out of this country, no way to get
into theirs (if they wanted to),
still believing this crock of ^&&^%.
I personally know of three people who
have committed suicide who were in the school.
I personally know several others who have
died because they thought Blue Body
was going to heal them. PEOPLE FREAKING
DIED BECAUSE OF WHAT THIS WOMAN PROPORTS!!!!!!!!
And then turns around and blames the people themselves because
"they create reality!"
At least I know I have sent one person
back to their home state before they
got snagged here.
And I truly hope the people
who are "long timers" in the school, who at one time saw me as a sincere, "achieving" dedicated student,
I truly hope I have rattled their cages.
Now, if we could only have some kind of
impact on a few businesses here in Yelm...
to get the owners, who are onto JZ , to
have the balls to stand up and say
something and not put the almighty
dollar before what they know is right vs
what is wrong.
This is sooo wrong, to treat human beings
like this, like a herd of cattle,
and exploit their minds (not to mention their money).
I had replied to your previous post while you were posting.
Please keep reading and educating yourself.
If something seems off, it most likely is.
People who are in the mindset cannot
We all moved here to be closer to "the ram"
and to fully expect our fabulous wealth.
(that was 20 years ago).
Maybe your friends would like to buy David's place
He has a very nice place, and it would
helping a fellow human being, if that is
what they have their minds made up to be
If Judi were to manifest her wealth by making it appear out of the void then I would not be here making harsh comments.
But she did not manifest her wealth this way, the way of R.A.M. teachings.
She manifested the old fashion way by getting it from another.
In making $$$$$$$$$$ from the Stock Market (that is if that story is true) she basically took the money from another. (In case some of you don't know, someone has to loose in the market for another to win.)
This sort of Piscian black magick kind of karma behavior has been going on for an aeon now. I got mine so the heck with you.
None of us would of came to RSE if we would of known that this was the format for creating sovereignty.
I would of became a salesperson and mastered the art of lying to myself and others while also being an expert on damage control.
******* To all on this forum I humbly apologize if I have upset any of your feelings with my harsh comments.************
I was simply stating earlier, that Aussiegirl has not experienced what we
She is endeavoring to understand, so she
can see where the BF is coming from.
I can't see the point of being so harsh
so as to not understand that they simply
do not KNOW.
Take this example.
The state has sent me to three different
The first one, who truly understood,
was a licensed psychiatrist. He has seen
several ex students come through
the doors, all with varying degrees
of dis orders.
So they set me up with another shrink
and a therapist.
Having done a grand amount of reading,
I pretty much know how cults work
and what effect they have on people.
So I ask both of these last two,
have you ever worked with ex cult
Neither of them had.
They then proceeded to prescribe, what THEY thought, a path of wellness,
which included two more prescriptions.
The therapist actually had a
"holier than thou" attitude, and tried
to tell ME how I was feeling and
When in fact, neither of them had the first
And here were freaking professionals!!
So, last week, I printed them out
some Margaret Singer material- 4 articles.
The shrink sais to me, in quite the
"are you trying to educate me? Is this what you are here for?!"
I just about fell off the chair.
I then proceeded to tell her that this
group is just 30 minutes away, and
should the bottom fall out,
there will be a mass of people with
She sais to me:
"Maybe you should take this up
under the business aspect with the owners
of this branch."
What more can you say to people
who have not the experience?
You can either berate them,
or have compassion and endeavor to
educate them when they are ready.
This thread contains personal attacks for which there is no justification. I have no reason to doubt Aussiegirl's identity because her boyfriend's name was mentioned on this site and he is known to me.
There is a big difference between reading posts and understanding what transpires at RSE. All of Aussiegirl's comments and questions have been posed in a respectful manner and deserve respectful responses. Personally attacking her or anyone is not a respectful response.
There is a large silent audience on this website. No doubt some of these people are family members of RSE students and wonder some of the very things Aussiegirl has asked about. To the extent that outsiders ask questions about different things they have heard and not understood, an educational opportunity is created for all.
Aussiegirl and other family members are here to learn. It is stated that this is a website for the support of former students, family and friends. That would include Aussiegirl.
Aussiegirl, please accept my apologies for some of the responses to the raw nerve which, in fact, you did hit. How could you have known? Keep asking whatever questions you like and I will answer them to the best of my ability.
Wolfman, in your first post you made no mention of JZ whatsoever, your harshness was directed at Aussiegirl and was uncalled for in my opinion.
I find your callousness reminiscent of the attitude of RSE students, who 'speak their truth' without regard for other people's feelings and even are proud of themselves for it.
Concerning the wealth of JZ here are some personal anecdotes.
JZ has 3 retail stores - JZRose in Bellevue, WA and Yelm and The Annex at the ranch. The store in Yelm was called "The Outback" for many years and the name changed recently when the store in Bellevue was opened. (By the way, according to "Ramtha" the rose is symbolic of Christ consciousness. Notice the connection - JZRose?) JZ also has a website selling much of the same merchandise shown in the stores. She sells both new and used merchandise including her own discarded clothing.
Imagine my surprise when I walked into the Yelm store and saw an item I had given her as a gift on display for sale. I picked it up to make sure it was the one I had given her and when I was satisfied that this was true I thought to myself, "Well, she had it for about 6 years so I guess she liked it."
But how tacky to turn around and sell it in the store!
On another visit (did I mention that "Ramtha" told us we should support her business venture?) I came across an old flour sieve for sale. She claims to sell antiques but as I owned this very same sieve I knew that it was not an antique, it was simply something that one of her employees had picked up at a rummage sale or flea market. The paint was scratched in numerous places and as I picked it up I mentally put a price on it. "OK, even in a store like this where everything is ridiculously overpriced it can't be more than $25. It still has flour on the inside..." How about $100? It was all so absurd I just had to laugh. But guess what? I never went back to the store again as I was unwilling to participate in such greed. It's true, a vendor can charge what the market will bear but there is also something called the rip-off.
(If only I had realized then that I was being ripped-off in more ways than one.)
One of the reason's JZ's opulent lifestyle hits a raw nerve is because too many people know "students" who have "given their all" to RSE. That is a "Ramtha" teaching, "Give it your all and hold nothing back." In other words, if you want to live Christ consciousness you must be prepared to sacrifice. And that means attending events and doing "the work."
There are too many people who have believed to the point of financial exhaustion. There are too many "students" who have not visited a doctor because they believed they could heal themselves according to the teachings of "Ramtha." And then their condition goes from bad to worse. Now they do not have the money to see a doctor and they certainly do not have health insurance because "Ramtha" told them, "You don't need health insurance, you have your blue body." (RSE does not provide health insurance for the staff because of this.) To watch their friends suffer while JZ goes around town in a gold Mercedes is more than some people can take.
In regard to JZ'z nastiness, I know of situations where very sincere long-time students, completely down and out and sometimes near death, have asked JZ for help - a job, or roof over their head or any help she could muster - only to fall on deaf ears, usually without the courtesy of a reply at all. It seems that when a person is no longer useful to her, she no longer considers them worthy of anything.
Now there is some enlightened compassion for ya
Morgana writes: And I don´t know how many will follow as, if you analyze the material on hand, the only "safe" place on earth will be Yelm.'
And here I just read somewhere the "Sportilla" facility in Europe will be "safe" according to JR! Oh, JRwell - change the language and erase the history all you want. It doesn't really change at all. People still gave all, financially and otherwise, their loved ones left behind, living in tents in the woods - that's the reality promised if they move to Yelm. Another thing I just do not understand is the ever-present threat of 'you will die.' NO **** Sherlock. That's what people do in these bodies - but there is life beyond. So in essence, no one EVER dies. Who wants to live in a nuclear wasteland? For that matter, don't drive, fly, or even leave your lean-to/house, because anything can happen. But then again, they would say 'they' created it. Maybe we do create things, but certainly not the way JR teaches. It was posted she created her wealth not from the 'void' but from her business. We all can create. I can create a picture with crayons - : ) You get the point. It's up to US, and not up to some self-created socioprofit.
You know us ex-Ramsters understand how Aussie struck a raw nerve. We all felt it, but she really is clueless (meant in a nice way) about what we've been through.
PLEEEEEEASE, the two of you, hug and make up ? You both offer much to the posts, and I think we all/most want to believe we're welcome to post.
Welcome to Yelmo......
I forgot that you don't have a clue of what is going on here.
If this is a forum for people who have loved ones here or having people that they are trying to control their lives then I sincerely apologize for THEIR ignorance.
They came here in the first place for something grand that was promised them.
They obviously felt that RSE was important.
So...... What did they find here?
What they found was themselves.
And in finding one self then all others fall away from their lives.
Aussie........... Do your mate a favor and tell him its either da R.A.M. or its YOU.
Can you handle the outcome if its not what you desire?
Then tell your mate that is exactly what he will experience if he stays in RSE.
EWO, Tree and Little One, thank you for understanding what I was saying. I am actually shocked at the vitriol towards me. I try very hard not to offend but for me Ramtha is laughable, its like someone believing Bozo the clown and its hard sometimes to understand why anyone would believe what she says. I do try hard not to tread on toes when I post, often I delete what I have said before I send it, worried that I will hurt someones feelings.
My comments are just my observations using the knowledge I have, its very difficult to be in a realionship with someone who you believe is in a cult and obviously that creates an emotional response in me. Wolfman why would I ask my boyfriend to choose? I don't agree with doing that, and the answer is simple, he would choose Ramtha not because he loves Ramtha more (although its possible) but because he would never accept me asking him to choose. At the moment RSE is just a nasty smell hovering over our relationship, it doesn't infiltrate our lives too much, my boyfriend hasn't been to any events in the two years we have been together nor does he do his "disciplines" anymore. I can manage and be happy with it at the moment, I am on this site because I firmly believe JZ will be exposed and I want to be prepared for the fall out when that happens.
Now what do I sell? - this may not be so surprising, I am a Television producer, I finance, produce and sell programming around the world (very succesfully). There you go, I'm in a shallow business just as you suspected Wolfman. So if you want to keep away from my products, turn off the TV.
And once and for all, to all of those posters who shot me down in flames I don't condone what JZ does or how she earns her money. I think its morally reprehensible but she is obviously someone with no moral code and thats how she can do it so easily. Either that or she is completely delusional and believes the crap she spouts.
I feel as though I have been beaten up, the reaction to what I said was so nasty and personal I'm quite shocked. For Christel to say I wasn't genuine and was misrepresenting who I was really upset me, I can only imagine that what I said hit home hard as it definitely made an impact. If I hadn't read the understanding words from EWO, Tree and Little One I don't think I could have continued to be part of this forum. Its funny how hard I try not to offend (even if not totally succesful) but many of you were more than happy to dig the boots in.
I'm not making any excuses for anyone...but I do want to explain something that I know is true. It may shed light on some things for you, and help you not to take some of the posts as personally as you have.
I understand WHY Christel has the conclusions that she does. We've seen all sorts of things on this forum. Plus, there is more that goes on behind the scenes (nasty emails, etc). We've had...oh...I'll just say a number of attempts at sabotage on this site. We've had plenty of negativity sent to people because of our speaking out, in ways that I just am not going to get into on here.
So, in times past (and recently, too), we have exposed and/or, ferreted out, saboteurs here. I can understand where some of the things you said, might be viewed as suspicious. That's not a slam to YOU, but it's a perception based on real experience. So, my point is, please try to put yourself in other's shoes for a bit, realizing that their concern/suspicion is not based on just fantasy in their head, but on far more than we even have shared on here. What's been posted is all bad enough, but it gets worse, unfortunately.
I personally don't think you're some sort of "fake" poster with an agenda.
Just fyi (for your info), I'm going to be very busy over the next few days, so I don't know how often I'll be online. I'll do my best. If I'm slow, be patient (everyone).
Wolf, I do understand your suggestion to give the partner an ultimatum and let the chips fall where they may. But, it's risky business, because one has to be ready and willing to dissolve the relationship. If my hubby had given me that ultimatum, there was a window of time where I would have probably waved good-bye. I'm glad he was patient with me, even though, as he said, "I've had enough of this Ramtha bull****." He's a laid back, patient guy, so for him to talk to me that way was extreme. As Aussie said, I would have reacted to him giving me the ultimatum and feeling like my hand was forced...and THAT would have sent me over the edge. Out of my entire family, it was one of my daughters who got so fed up, that she acted out in a Very Major Way toward me remaining in RSE. NOW, I see that she was the gutsy one, willing to risk it all (relationship). For 3 years, we did not speak to one another over that incident. We JUST started to visit/get together, since this past July. It's strained, but we're working on it. After all of that - and it was my kid that was right! In the meanwhile, my hubby didn't give me the chance to walk away from my whole family.
Oh, gosh. What the heck was I thinking ??? How can I ever make that all up to them, I do not know. THAT bothers me very much, to this day. I can't get back that wasted, foolish use of my time away from them. But, I believed I was learning things that would help me to help them evolve. ... sigh .... All I can do is cry in grief over that loss that I cannot fix. It makes me angry and I have a REASON to be angry !!!! I'm not an "angry person", by nature. I'm very happy. I just don't take kindly be being spiritually raped.
Can't we all just get along????....
Ok -- that was said with some sarcasm, some humor, some pleading and hopefully some positive direction...
A forum of this nature defeats its own purpose if there is not an atmosphere of healthy tolerance for differing views... That doesn't mean we sacrifice what we think and feel -- ourselves -- in order to spare someone's feelings or not step on anyone's toes -- but we do try to be tactful and considerate when stating those thoughts and feelings... and I think mostly, we achieve that.
Emotions run high -- most posters have had more than a passing exposure to RSE and discussion and / or debate of any deeply held personal belief tends to feel like a personal attack... My own sister said "what does that say about what you think of ME when you question RSE, since *I* am the one who chose it??".... And really, if my questions or statements are not carefully framed, I can understand it feeling like that to her...
I can understand, as an "outsider" what Aussiegirl says about it all seeming so "stupid" to her... The beliefs, the tests, JZ and her facelifts, wandering around in the mud, the wine ceremonies, days to come, etc.. .. to an outsider, it DOES look ridiculous.. Aren't most cults by definition, ridiculous in practice??...There is a link on this website's links page, where someone has "reviewed" RSE and says this about people wandering around blindfolded: "Aren't these peoples lives hard enough? Can't they just stay home and poke their eyes out?"... And really, there is a grain of truth to that... If I were an ex-student, I know that would be hard for me to hear -- but there is truth to that statement. ...I told my mother tonight that I would happily blindfold her and let her wander around our house for three days and I'd even charge her $1000 to do it!!... She didn't find it as amusing as I did....
But I am also very aware of the dynamic that "caught" people who were and are current, RSE students... It's tragic... Mind control under the auspices of spirituality is a powerful thing...It is embarrassing, humiliating, frightening and dibilitating when one comes out of the fog to the other side... and haven't we all, at some point, done things just because it was what we wanted to believe??
From what I've read here, I think basically, we're all coming from the same place -- we're all a little fascinated, obsessed and distressed about the cult that took over the lives of our loved ones or ourselves -- Aussigirl, you say RSE hasn't impacted your life "much" but you have been here and posting quite a bit lately!! -- and trying to deal with it and its aftermath... I don't sense a lot of judgement going on... just people trying to figure "it all" out.
This is a message board -- communcation between people is tricky on a verbal level -- when reading posts on a board, tone is hard to determine and easily misinterpreted -- eyes miss words, things are misconstrued.... Things happen... I think we all just want to be "understood" and "heard."
But one thing I know is true -- this forum must allow for people to be able to feel free to express their fears, questions, their anger and frustrations, otherwise there is no point...
Aussie, imo it's important for you to stay and continue posting your views, thoughts and questions. It adds to the community to have this diversity of posters from around the globe. The only thing I can add is this, you had to be there - in Yelm and not one of the "hotel" retreats, or the Rome retreat, or the Hawaii retreat. The 'away' retreats are far more elaborate than the ranch. One is not sleeping in a flooded tent and sloshing through an mudpit. Please trust me on this one, if you will. Some, if not many of us, feel spiritually raped. It is a very sinister situation. You are with people who are smiling, hugging one another - 'we all know something most people don't' - 'we know the great secrets' of life and death and manifesting.' We 'feel' close to the Supreme Awareness, God. What we didn't know was that we were indeed in a cult. I still cannot believe it myself. My spouse who was intrigued listened to many of the CD's and was impressed with some of the views JR expressed. This is a person with extremely critical thinking. However, when attending a beginners, the reaction was immediate - 'this is a business pure and simple' my spouse stated (maybe not so pure!). Period.
For me, I had an extremely difficult time a couple of months ago when I lost two people in my own family, followed by my K9 friend passing on. This was when I was 'lost' in my spirituality and felt sadness I had been so silly to be taken in by the school. There was nowhere for me to turn for the faith I had prior to rse, and it wasn't in organized religion. It was in the God existing everywhere. JR's teachings can be alarmingly frightening. It's difficult to explain how people, those highly educated and those who are pure at heart are pulled into this. Coming out of it, some people will feel anger since they have given up years of their lives, their families, their money, their careers - for what? For a woman to fulfill her desire to become a billionaire. The brainwashing, hypnotic trances, wine, trance dances, torsion complexes, and even JR initially came off as knowledgeable in explaining the neurosynapses, etc. We were learning the 'ancient secrets!' Ha. The whole package is there to bring you back again and again, until you feel you are no longer an individual, but just another back in the herd. Pfui! That's when I began feeling again and was angry at the loss of the faith I did have in myself prior to going to rse. How DARE the teachers and some guards speak to the students in an abusive manner? How dare they treat us as such when we paid through the teeth for the retreats, not to sleep in a hotel room, but outside, in the wind, cold and rain, and yes, extreme heat as well. Just try and understand how lives have been devastated and families broken apart, and the idea that these tactics of brainwashing are utilized to keep people in the school. (not unlike the same idea where the tobacco/cigarette companies were aware of the addictive nature of nicotine and used it as a tool to make $$$$- still an addiction if not brainwashing).
There are a LOT of Aussies in the school. I've met people from the Northwest Territory (sp) to Melbourne, and New Zealand. Unless the school is somehow linked to our own military experiments, I don't see how it is permitted to continue. I do know changes were implemented in that those drinking wine had to be seated in their own section. Also olive oil was now being used in the cooking booths. Very, very strong disinfectants used in the communal restrooms we were told ('nasty stuff'). Why so if we all create it? The inconsistencies just keep hitting one in the face after you leave, and I ask myself, HOW could I spend my precious time there - when I had someone very dear to me who needed me emotionally. It's too late now. The person has passed and I was at rse learning how to 'blue body heal' them or so I thought. I lost this precious time and can never recover it, can never laugh with this person again, or just be with them as support, or hug them. I missed so much time with them because I was trying all I could through the teachings. Focus and it will be - we were taught. Be analogous. I was so focused at times I didn't hear the field called and continued walking around blindfolded. Yet JR shakes the crowd, 'you're not working.' Who exactly is he/she to judge? We judge ourselves.
Just a thought- one would consider JR ought be quite concerned her ex students and critics would focus that the truth be shown to all and such would 'manifest in the void' and 'bubble up through the quantum field." Or they'd grid that justice and truth prevail. Or maybe she'd change HER timeline without facelifts and medications to a timeline where no criticism of the school exists and she is healthy. But making oneself a billionaire over other's sorrows and loss is unconscionable - and sociopathic imo.
They are a bit in a catch-22. Argue with this forum and they agree to this timeline. Do nothing and bite their nails heshe will be found out-and many will lose jobs as a result.
But we will not go away and our voices will not be silenced. Truth is truth regardless of which "neighborhood" one lives in. If there are rse 'spies' here, it's an admission they are a fraud by JR, whether her staff believes it or not.
Maybe she ought to have gone to Hollywood! She does accents quite well, albeit inconsistently. Just wonder why she's not on the cover of the National Enquirer or in the headlines of the mag rags, 'alien speaking through woman tells of impending disaster." Nothing good to say, eh?
Oh, and the twinkies? Freeze them. They taste better that way.....
As usual, I've worn out my post.
You have contributed a personal touchstone in "sparking" a deeper conversation regarding loved ones caught in the RSE snare..
and I thank you for that..
All cults are mind control traps, just how to get out.. or free a loved one without biting through one’s own leg…is what EMF reaches to achieve..
The RSE trap sets a very powerful lure of deception.. from the outside it is understandable that we look like a bunch of fools, perhaps even deserving our lot..
This is exactly what the likes of JZR want the public to believe,
After all.. What is evil in this world looks like something from the exorcist movies..
This is a fallacy…I have come to understand that evil is more akin to
highly intelligent beings of deception… playing God with people’s lives.
During my time in RSE I have partnered with such people as....a heart surgeon, priests, scientists, artists, sociologist, Buddhist…TV producers..Etc.. intelligent and caring people from all walks of society, yet.. There we were with a sense of awe in “Ramtha” with the performance and authority that would better Charlton Heston’s Moses.
The terrible awakening from this epic delusion can shatter a life.
It often takes bare bones honesty; many have lost their lives not only from their involvement in RSE but the process and heartbreak of getting out of the trap. Some choose to stay in perpetual pain and delusion rather than dispel the lie and regain freedom..
Your comments came across somewhat defensive of JZR,,I understand Wolfman’s bite.. it was harsh..I hope you will forgive him given the issues we are reaching to understand. Wolfman…what do you recommend for a wolf bite?
With our combined strength we will dispel the “Ramtha” delusions and dismantle the RSE trap until it is no more. That day be cannot come soon enough.
Its late..I hope my ramblings are of some use..
wow...this post has really touched everyone to such deep levels....
everything written so very well.
Two years ago next month, I met my partner.
She has been IMMENSELY patient, loving,
supportive and nuturing at such a critical
time in my life (first my 'empty nest'
syndrome, and now recovery from such a group).
I must tell you, just a few weeks ago,
she said that she did not think we would
ever make it had I stayed in RSE-my involvement was that destructive.
Fortunately, by the time I met her, I had
pretty much quit doing my "disciplines"
(with a HUGE amount of guilt, I might add)
and I was only attending my "required"
events (and I worked there!!! Imagine the
unspoken pressure of ,"I can't believe you
aren't going to an assay!!!esp when you
get your events for free!!!")
Well, I had decided to pursue another interest with such vim and vigor, that it
took time away from my involvement with RSE.
Students would ask why I missed an event,
and I would say, "I am pursuing that which
I created." They could understand that.
But by the grace of god, that pursuit had
asbolutely nothing to do with RSE in any way, shape or form.
This outside interest finally got me to
realize, there is more to life than
just little old Yelm. It was amazing to me to find people more caring, sympathetic and just place nicer, than
those at RSE.
I have been to more cities in the past year and a half, than I have
in the last 18 years!!!
Imagine, being able to fly without
the fear instilled by JR about
flying and the "horrors" of big cities.!
Yet, she was doing it herself
Support your BF in other endeavors, and
he will soon see; it is inevitable.
And you will even have to be MORE patient
when he truly has his day of total
awakening. That day, and the subsequent
weeks, were utterly devestating for me.
Hang in there, don't stop posting, and we
will be here, for both you and your SO.
I have just read all of the posts on this thread. And from the stories told, it is quite a body of evidence from former students of what the whole Ramtha scam is all about and the harm it has caused so many people. When I read Auusey Girl's remarks I thought they were terribly insensitive and smug even if that was not what she intended. But to say that it was fine for JZ to get rich because she was only running a business when that business has enslaved and impoverished so many people in the name of spiritual enlightment is offensive to most people on this forum. She says that she would never be taken in by such a load of bull****. Well good for her for being so much smarter than we were. But I also thank her for bringing all these reactions and stories out in one brilliant thread; it should be mandatory reading for all those considering a trip to Yelm. But since she is a TV producer, why doesn't she take some of these stories and make a show about it. I think it would make very, very interesting viewing. I could deal with her being as smug and insensitive as she likes if she put some of these stories out to the world at large. So what do you say, Girl - make us a programme?
"I could deal with her being as smug and insensitive as she likes..."
This is an example of a personal attack. There is no reason nor justification for it. If a reader decides that a poster's comments qualify for "smug and impersonal" that is an opinion which is based on perception, not fact.
The way that someone comes across is going to be different for every one of us. Without verbal cues, body language and context it is very easy to misunderstand another person's comments. Rather than drawing a harsh conclusion do a reality check instead by asking a question concerning their comment.
PS It is not my first choice to use another poster's words as a negative example but I did it because I am not willing to tolerate personal attacks on this website.
Well, Eyes (Opened or closed) Your idea of a personal attack was my idea of humour - so there it is. Maybe we are all at times various things - loving or mean or smug and insensitive. But most of us are not becoming rich from the form of spiritual fraud that JZ and RSE sell. And, I'd still like to see some smug TV producer do a programme on the whole Ramtha scam.
Gee, when I think about it, isn't if rather funny - Christel started this thread calling JZ the nastiest person, she had ever met and some of our own comments back and forth to each other have been nasty as well. I also find it funny Eyes that you can't "tolerate" my personal attack. Interesting choice of words there. Best get the moderators back here to keep us all civil. I think if we can ever get to the point where we can laugh about our RSE experiences, we will know we are getting better. I still have a lot of trouble admitting that I was fool enough to fall for it all.
Eyes Wide Open,
Aussiegirl's initial presentation was in fact quite nasty given the hardships endured by people on this website and others that have been involved with RSE.
After several posts of explanation Aussiegirl still expresses the same viewpoint regarding Ms. Knight's wealth.
In effect the presentation is as if everyone should "allow" JZ her money regardless of how it is acquired.
It is the type of commentary one generally expects form those infested with RSE.
The obstruction to such sort of commentary is JUSTICE.
To support the freedom of speech of such commentary and deny the expression of those opposed to it is to endevour to subjegate truth, dominate others and indulge in character assasination.
Personal attack is to have an emotional vendetta against a person. It is not to object to a viewpoint presented that under the circumstances is quite abusive in the first place.
p.s. Eyes Wide Open, Your personal experiences posted on this thread were interesting and of value. Likewise other posters. It exposes what has remained hidden within RSE.
I am interested in reading more as there are ceratinly things posted here that I have heard of even though I was a long term student.
David...... Your post was very well done.
Sometimes it takes a deep puncture wound to get to the poison within.
What I recommend for a wolf bite is a deep cleaning that takes time, and I am sorry to say, must only be preformed by the bitten. Its also best to stay out of the "sun" for awhile until it heals.
Actually I am glad to here that Aussie is a big shot in TV land.
Maybe TV will get better now on her side of the pond.
Maybe she will at least think twice before she agrees to produces a lucrative but public mind dumbing project.
um, sweetie, and I DO not mean that condescendingly, but you have backed yourslef
into a nasty corner.
and from my own experience, that
nastiness, stems from such a cult.
EVERY ONE has seen your view.
Even Wolf, offered , not just one,
but TWO apologies ( and some treatments)
So, please, dear, I know you are not
in this vicinity,and I know people process
at varying degrees according to
Please ,see, that you still have
the "nastiness" associated with such
cults, as did I- for the last 18 years.
At least, it is now waning with proper
Thank you for reading.
Jut to let you know re my TV career. Firstly I am a children's drama producer (no experience in docos etc) and secondly I am in a relationship with a man who has followed the Ramtha teachings for about 20 years. I couldn't possibly do an expose on the school - As you all know now, I am quite outspoken and struggle with keeping my mouth shut and my opinions to myself. That is a big enough problem in my relationship without producing an anti-RSE Television program!!!
Christel - you are not willing to understand what I am saying, you are reading my words but giving them meaning that supports the way you feel rather than the meaning I intend. We all post at different times in our lives, I am more inclined to post when I am struggling with my partners involvement in the school and things aren't good between us. So I am likely to be emotional and not always as clear as I could be in getting my message across. I would really appreciate it if you just left me alone on a personal level, I have apologised over and over again and tried to make you understand how I feel but you are intent on seeing something bad in whatever I write.
What a fantastic thread! So many people have made such meaningful posts, thank you. I actually think we should consider this thread for a sticky in this forum...
I do think that if Aussiegirl's original post on this thread had been her 1st post ever we all would have reacted similar to Christel. I guess I felt like I have gotten to 'know' Aussie a little and didn't take offense to her question. I also think, as some people have stated, that we all need to make an effort to preserve this forum as a 'safe place' to post and that should include asking challenging questions. In the end, doesn't it help to clarify things?
In reading some of the responses, I'm struggling a little bit to understand what a 'personal attack' is. It's very hard when we're talking about such emotionally charged topics. I know that I used to not have any problem being very mean and hurtful to people in the name of 'truth'. I see that as an aspect of my former (RSE) self that I have tried to dampen. Of course, now I sometimes struggle with not speaking up at the appropriate times... baby steps... Anyway, I hope that I didn't say anything that was taken as a personal attack - it was never meant that way.
Since realizing that RSE is a cult, I would like to think that I will never be fooled again. However, to believe that would be to miss the point imo. Coming to terms with my former beliefs makes me realize how so much in life presents the opportunity to be 'duped' or blindly follow. I honestly challenge anyone to say they have *never* 'fallen for' anything...
My experience does not give me permission to feel better than someone who is still in the school or some other similar circumstance - it gives me compassion and understanding and sensitivity, which I value very much.
''''My experience does not give me permission to feel better than someone who is still in the school or some other similar circumstance - it gives me compassion and understanding and sensitivity, which I value very much.''''
So simply and eloquently stated. Quite enlightening. Thank you.
You're welcome G2G.
Oh and Aussiegirl, welcome back!
Aussie and others in similar situations - view the Derren Brown videos on google - in the "Russian Scam", in less than 5 minutes Derren Brown has a man he's never met before give him his wallet, keys, and cell phone - twice. Brown demonstrates skills of manipulation that parallel JZ's. Perhaps watching some of his behavior will help you understand how we have been so severely scammed by JZK Inc.
""I could deal with her being as smug and insensitive as she likes..."
This is an example of a personal attack. There is no reason nor justification for it. If a reader decides that a poster's comments qualify for "smug and impersonal" that is an opinion which is based on perception, not fact. "
And then J O berates Eyes.
It is of my opinion that Eyes hit the nail on the head.
Ant littlewiseone stated that she, too,
used to be of that vein.
I think cults do that to people.
I know for myself, the few people who were
never IN the school to begin with
have seen my behavior modify so so
much in regards to my nastiness.
I used to be quick to anger, justified
in going off on somebody in the name of
truth and under the guise of a teaching
titled: justified anger, very argumentative, and just plain ugly.
I think this takes time for it to wane,
and one can see the various forms
here on this forum.
I trust we are all heading in the same
forgiving and loving direction.
Now, Tree who made you (or Eyes) the judge? I wrote my perceptions, didn't say they were fact, just how I saw it. Then I injected what I thought was a bit of humour. Aussey Girl replied to me without judgement - just stating that she didn't make documentaries. You don't know me or my story. You don't know whether I am "nasty" or not or how I have coped with my experience of JZ and RSE. From my reading of the site,when you first posted, you were given support and a sympathetic hearing. I have just been "told off" because you misunderstood me when you took one segment of my post out of context. But then I have never been an RSE employee, or drunk and raped at an event, I am only a foreigner living in Europe who was fleeced of my money and ashamed and upset by my own stupidity.
David wrote,"aussiegirl, you have to forgive wolfman".
Well David I admire you however Christel and Wolfman are correct and very progressive with their thoughts,that downunder reprobate is a hypocrite akin to that vile, nasty, stinking,dirty,rotting, B..ch judith knight.
aussiegag lives with a rse student and " DON'T WANT TO CONFRONT HIM" about the tragedy that is ongoing in Yelm,"BECAUSE IT WOULD START WORLD WAR THREE",this regressive attitude alone must preclude aussiegag from taking shots anyone posting here and even banned from EMF until she has gone to yelm paid her money experienced the underbelly of ZEBRAS'INFERNO.i have had thirteen years of that labyrinth under my belt.wait, the never existed caveman did not allow us too wear belts "because it would constrict the energy
from flowing from the 1st seal to the head"OMG aussiegirl you have no idea what ALL of us have gone through.You are bundled in with Prudence who thinks this is some sunday walk in the country and that scientology person Jenna.Right now i WOULD welcome having these memories wiped from me.
Tree, I agree that everyone on this forum is at varying degrees of 'recovery' and that it is natural to have leftover 'nastiness', nobody's perfect after all. We can run each other in circles arguing about what constitutes unacceptable posting, we're never ALL going to agree. In light of that, I hope the moderators step in to clarify their position on some of these recent posts.
Would a debate thread solve the problem? Maybe we should all re-read the posting guidelines...? http://enlightenmefree.com/boards.html
"Now, Tree who made you (or Eyes) the judge?"
i just saw what you sais as attacking
Eyes, and thusly I stated so.
if you didn't mean it that way,
no need to bring up being a staff member
and rape. What was the point of that?
now you are onto me.
get off my back.
I get enough crap from current Ramsters
without you slinging crap everywhere
on a forum.
Plume - who are you to judge what is appropriate for me in my relationship. I have asked the advise of posters to this forum about how to handle my partner. If you were ever a member of the school you must have a memory of how brainwashed you were, there is nothing I can say to my partner about RSE that will make him see the truth. Even as recently as last night I asked him what I thought was a question that might provoke some thought or a slight seed of doubt - it caused such an enormous argument that I'm not sure now if we are going to make it. I'm at work and the last thing that happened was him telling me he would be leaving. So I don't know if I am going to go home to talk things over or to find an empty house.
And then I log in to this forum and read another nasty comment directed at me.
I am not and have never been a ramster so I am still an emotional person, I don't dissasociate in the way many of you probably did at your time during the school. Maybe some of you still have that ability. So when you say something nasty to me, it actually hurts. I never directed any comments at anyone in particular, why am I being attacked so viciously.
I would have liked this morning to have been able to post and ask for some advise, some support because I am upset and confused about what went on with my boyfriend last night. But I don't feel there is any support left for me on this site.
I wish you all well, many of you have been wonderful and provided help and insight to me and other friends of families struggling to live with a member of RSE. To the rest of you, frankly my dear I don't give a ****.
Aussiegirl -- I'm sorry you're having a tough time right now... My thoughts are with you....I hope you will keep in touch through this post and let us know how things are going.
Hi Aussie girl,
Sorry you are having a rough time.
"there is nothing I can say to my partner about RSE that will make him see the truth. Even as recently as last night I asked him what I thought was a question that might provoke some thought or a slight seed of doubt - it caused such an enormous argument that I'm not sure now if we are going to make it. I'm at work and the last thing that happened was him telling me he would be leaving. So I don't know if I am going to go home to talk things over or to find an empty house. "
You are more then likely right about having nothing to say to your partner that will make him see the truth.
It is very much similar to being with an alcoholic. You can say what you want, tell the truth that they are killing themselves, what you say in these situations more often then not can drive them to become more secretive, and distant.
The fact that your questioning of last night created such a response tells me that you were probably presenting a logical question, which would have lead to only a logical answer. When forced in to a corner like this it is quite common for the group member to become defensive and, given the context rightly (not correctly) so. You have presented them with something which in effect denies their belief system. Especially because of all the fear induction in RSE a denial of this system might be more frightening then you could possibly imagine. Hence the nature of the responce.
I too had the same problem with my family member( littlewiseone). Of course because of my love for them I wanted the best for my family and recognized that RSE was a road to nowhere. However, after many years of lack of meaningful contact, and seeing how ingrained in the belief system they were. I decided that since it was seemingly impossible to alter the belief system, perhaps I should have a look at my own because those I could do something about.
As parent, giving up on "saving" ones children is a really tough pill to swallow.
Yet, I came to realize that in effect, my family member had a "condition" and that their condition was due in a large part to their enviornmental happenstance. I had to make a choice between being a parent whos child had and was in the grips of a "condition" and make the best of it that I could, or, continue to attempt to be their savior and have things keep going the way they were.
let me tell you honestly, it is much easier to look at ones self as a savior, then to be a sort of silent observer so I am not saying that it is an easy road to take or one that you should necessarily take. Only sharing some experience here.
I can tell you a few things which in hindsight I observed. By me continualy bringing up RSE or, even other things which were RSE related even if not directly. I squandered what little alonetime I would have with my family member. Since it was an enviornmental (read enviorn-Mental) condition, I believe that I was perpetuating the enviornment by rasing questions about it.
I made a sort of pact with myself that I would only talk about it when I was asked questions. I believe that I stated clearly my feelings about the group and JZ and those like her, but stressed that I did not want that to come between our relationship. That our relationship was more important.
You may want to take the opportunity of the big upset to mention that you do not like the way any discussion of this effects your relationship and though you would certainly hope that this would not be so that you will try to refrain from "rocking the boat " so to speak. If you can keep your word in this regard you may be able to gain some trust from your partner who I would think is beggining to look at you as an adversary at times.
I say that i realized that it was a "condition". I strongly believe this. However, this condition can act very much like a disease, or virus and spead to us even though we are thinking we are healers..
I feel if we are to be healers we must provide an enviornment that is the most healthy for ourselves in the first place. That way when the time comes that our loved one may need us to lend and ear, emotional support, financial, whatever, then we can be more effective at a more opportune moment.
I wish I could tell you that there is a quick, cut and dried answer to all this. Logically it certainly seems so. However, in my many years of experience, while the experiences may sound similar, and the logic remains the same, we are still dealing with human beings and one thing i have learned is that human beings often have their own timing mechanisms, ones that we are not always priveledged to share...
best of luck to you.
"Quite frankly you don't know what to do with advice."
Here's a little side note for you.
A few months ago the R.A.M. told his audience that he was going to start breaking up couples again.
Seems like Yelm is coming to Down Under.
I can't help but wonder if your mate will ever wonder on to EMF.
THAT would be the best for both of you.
A few months ago the R.A.M. told his audience that he was going to start breaking up couples again.
Will you please explain further? Why would JZ Knight want couples to start breaking up? Are these married couples or life partners?
What do you mean by breaking couples up again? I have never heard that.
Did/does Ramtha do that? Why? Do people break up even if they don´t want to!?
i dont know about this recently but i can confirm remarks about haunting husbands who r objecting theire wifes going to rse.there r also loyality tests for followers.remember this is all enbeded in teachings "unimportant" remarks from the ram like >leave the people which block your enlightment
christel:i like your sharp analytic angry posts.i also dont by in this crapp of forgivness as an excuse to convinient look away from wrongs.but rebells need support from not so entusiastic people that they get food and can concentrate on theire warefare.same to the wolf consider:biting humans ends up with hunters to bring you down.[teeth against guns?]i like your posts too.and aussie girl i liked yours because they were close to my situation when i was married.this all looks like jzr winns through divide and concer.dont let her winn.jzr deserves to get brought down not someone from this board.
lol ex! yes, christel is to be admired for exactly how you describe. I gain alot
of insight from her posts.
and to think wolf has a soothing
paw after all (teasing)
and yes, "R" does break up couples, directly and indirectly.
If you are in the inner circle, or friends
with the inner circle, it will
If you are an "outsider" in the audience
(regular Joe), you will hear things like
this, and then justify your
arguments and break ups that "R", Lord of
the Wind who knows all, is doing it.
No self responsibilty what so ever.
Student do not know how, although, they
THINK they are, but in reality, they are not.
I have extreme empathy for you right now.
journeyin ramthaland laid it out very very
Know that you are in our thoughts.
The moderators are doing some groundwork that is mostly offline right now. We just read the threads...we'll be back SOON, "full time", so to speak.
We just want to say that cults are, we believe, affected with the divide and conquer syndrome. Keep that in mind when considering these posts, perhaps. We are. You are all in our thoughts.
Best to EVERYONE.
Hi Aussiegirl, if you are still here,
Journey's words were wise and down to earth. If I might add, your partner is not attending events regularly--a good thing. I think you have said that he doesn't do disciplines regularly--a good thing. Yet you keep bringing up RSE to him, even in the most non-challenging way. Of course you mean well, but as Dr. Phil would say, How is that working for you?
In my own experience, I have never known any adult to respond well to nagging. Example: My parents were addicted to cigarettes and smoked heavily for at least 20 years. For a long time, many family and friends nagged and nagged my parents to quit. Then they talked among themselves and decided to stop nagging.
About 1 year passed. My parents were having problems one day with finding their favorite brand, and they looked at each other and said, Let's just quit. They quit cold turkey (there were no patches back then) and never smoked again. They stopped when they were ready.
I left RSE when I was ready to leave. If anyone had nagged me--even being as subtle as possible--I would have resented it.
As an adult, whenever anyone has nagged me about anything, I associated that with my parents nagging me, as a child, to lose weight, clean my room, etc. So being nagged as an adult is associated with all my childhood feelings of NOT BEING GOOD ENOUGH. Just possibly, your spouse may feel he is not good enough for you as he is?
When I was an RSE student, nobody could have talked me out of it with intellectual arguments. I would have thought to myself, You aren't in the school, so you don't know what I know and you have not experienced what I have experienced. I would also have felt the questioner was insulting my intelligence, because I was like many RSE students in that I have a college degree and a highly intellectual profession. Other posters have said much the same thing.
My family was very concerned when I started getting involved in metaphysical studies years ago. But they did not nag. They watched me and saw that I was still functioning normally in the world. Then I became involved in RSE and even moved 2000 miles away, to Yelm. They still did not nag. They visited me, and kept the lines of communication open, and saw that I was still healthy and functioning well. When I quit RSE I never heard one "I told you so." I bless their wisdom and patience.
If I were in YOUR situation (partner not heavily involved in RSE and not doing anything to endanger his health or ruin his finances, etc.) and I got the chance to speak to my partner before he walked out, I would APOLOGIZE for nagging him and not allowing him to hold his own beliefs. I would let him know you trust his judgment (men want to be trusted), and promise in the future to RESPECT his ability to think for himself (men want to be respected). Then I would KEEP that promise, and work to strengthen the relationship in all ways. Eventually, when he knows he can trust you, and that he will never hear an "I told you so," he may just quietly, and without fanfare, stop reading RSE books and listening to RSE CDs.
I have other friends who are ex-Ramsters, and we all got out on our own--we were not nagged out, or intellectually argued out, of RSE.
I offer all this in a spirit of helpfulness, and I hope you really know that you are not alone.
very well said.
I would say I vouch for the same expereince and
mind set. Esp the nagging
and the intellectualizing.
And you are most definitely,
Please keep us posted.
Just a side note of my own -- while my sister has definitely taken the positions that I don't know what I'm talking about and that I MUST be suggesting she is "not ok" or "good enough" as she is -- and all of this btw, just for asking questions, trying to open dialogue about RSE -- while having a discussion with my mother recently, I told her it is precisely BECAUSE she is OK the way she is, that she is perfect in every way and doesn't need Ramtha to tell her how to "be better"... She just glowed when I said this...seemed to make her very happy and she smiled all weekend... Of course, I don't believe it had a real impact on her decision to move to Yelm, but it was an HONEST conversation and I DID feel that way...[for all I know she is planning her "get away" from me and that's why she was smiling all weekend..HA]
I think it's a fine line -- between "nagging" and "expressing concern"... One must let their adult relationships and relatives live out their own lives... I guess I am trying to stay within the "ok, I expressed my feelings and concerns, anything more is going to be nagging" space... But this is my mother I'm speaking of ... My sister has been very clear that she doesn't wish to discuss it further, so for both our sakes I won't be bringing it up again unless asked.. I guess until if and when she is out of the school... and likely, won't have any contact with her until the same... Not of my choosing, but because she has deemed me too inferior to be bothered with at this point...
But if I had a significant other relationship in the school, then I think I'd have to decide how much that affects me and how much of that I'm ok with and how much I'm not... in most SO relationships, at some point, it starts to collide with the other person's beliefs and ways of living.
You said, "A few months ago the R.A.M. told his audience that he was going to start breaking up couples again."
I'm curious about this...I'm wondering if there is a larger context to this comment "he" made ? What was the point of the comment - was it related to something that they're doing in the school ? Or just that "he" was in the mood to stir up DRAMA, and made the comment ? He used to tell some fat women they were going to be dead in six months, and that didn't happen. It's not the first time this topic has been brought up in an RSE audience, as we know.
Aussiegirl, I'm very sorry to hear about what you're going thru. I hope that you will let us know how things unfold for you. I'm also very sorry for the unpleasant comments that have been directed at you and hope that you know this is still a place where you can find common ground at least with most of us. Many have made wonderful, thoughtful replies.
As far as the nagging, I would like to add my perspective. It's true that nagging will send just about anybody in the opposite direction intended and in my case, the break from interacting with my family was probably the only solution I saw at the time. I still believe strongly that even though I fought the seeds of doubt that were partly planted, and partly kept alive by some of my family members' criticism, those seeds were under the surface for a long time and I never did fully manage to do away with them. Until the day that I allowed myself to reason with them, with the full assumption that they would be defeated once and for all and proven wrong. The outcome of course was the opposite, as soon as I allowed myself to look logically at many of the inconsistencies, more and more started popping up!
So, I guess there's no one answer really. I think it's a lot of right place, right time and no one can really predict when that right time or place occurs. I feel for those of you struggling to come to terms with your family/friends/partners involvement in the school, I'm sure at times it seems pretty hopeless. Don't loose hope though, you never know when that light bulb just happens to flicker on.
Nellie - I couldn't agree more about Derren Brown. He's brilliant and shows so clearly that all you need is the right circumstance and some clever means to pretty much get anybody to do anything you want.
Stating the obvious: I am against the RSE organization because of observable actions and evidence.
I am not interested in holding discussions under the conditions that pro RSE viewpoints are defended and supported.
I am not against any individual but I am against EXPRESSION that supports RSE viewpoints.
Under the condition I am not free to object to that type of expression without an onslaught afterwards I am no longer interested in participating.
If you want to advertise for RSE go for it. I am just not interested.
"Under the condition I am not free to object to that type of expression without an onslaught afterwards I am no longer interested in participating."
I so do admire your fiery-ness and your
You bring so much to the forum.
Don't let someone else's lack of tact or
temporary cult personality
turn you away.
Atleast I can say for myself, thank you
for being there/here for me.
I was told by another within the last six months that R.A.M. stated in audience that he was going to start breaking up couples.
For those who have been around RSE for years, there is two constants.
1) There are very few people from 20 years ago still current.
2) There are even fewer couples still together.
Wolfman, what you say is true...I can vouch for it.
Aussiegirl, I hope that you've had a chance to step back and regroup with regard to this thread. I am thankful that you cared enough to apologize to the folks that you stung by your comments with regard to us just being so stupid as to get caught up in the likes of RSE. I promise you - it's just not that simple. That's why we can get caught up - it's a shrewd process that is slow and insidious. It does an intentional job of hooking people into the teachings, in particular, by backing what it says with partial science truths; partial pseudoscience. There are just many levels to getting caught up in a cult.
I expect that Wolfman's bite, was really a firm position he took because he knows what YOU are up against with your boyfriend being under the Ramtha influence. Couples and integriy and loyalty and commitment in RSE, are not held in high esteem. It is seen that couples need to get something from a relationship, and then move on, letting their past go. Wolfman knows this, as do many of us, so we are worried for your sake, because it is probable that you're going to get hurt - though - we hope you won't be. It seems, you already are being hurt in that relationship, though. I KNOW it's hard, but maybe you should consider if there is another fish in the sea, better suited to you. Just a thought ! I KNOW you're hurting now. That's one thing us ex-RSE folks do know well - emotional pain. It's unfortunate to see someone else going through it, too.
Since I have been a former student of too many years (blech), I also understand where you're coming from with your posts. There really is more reason that is obvious to many posters on this forum, that we get (have) some "infiltrators". Separate from that, is the issue of your view with regard to your opening comments in this thread. There is a big difference between the initial teachings, and the latter years. I have more to post about that, as I work on my notes. I had the occasion to recently speak to a number of professionals in the field of coercive groups. It all dovetails with what you've posted, and others, too.
Gotta go .....
Christel, I have to say I understand but I don't think I fully agree. Are we still talking about Aussie's original question...? Do you guys realize that the most commonly held view of people 'like us' is that we're somehow deficient in the intelligence department for falling for such crap? I don't agree with this sentiment of course but doesn't it run counter to our intention to bring the workings of RSE to light by refusing to address the question that will be the most commonly asked? If we're not talking about Aussie's original comment I might be off base of course, and I'm never advocating support for RSE, just healthy discussion.