I have a question -- my mother has been heavily into the Ramtha thing for the past 6 years or so -- I have read a bit about some of the joking about wine blessings and tequila breakfasts... My concern is, my mother is an alcoholic, that as far I understood, had not had a drink in over 30 years... She had quite a bad time with it and it would be disasterous if she drank again.. How much drinking goes on there and should I be concerned about this aspect??... Besides all the other aspects I should be concerned about -- which is all too much to go into at this point... Thanks.

Marie. It seems to me that your question is rhetorical---I worked once as a therapist at a large halfway house for adult males, half of whom just got out of court or spent time in prison. (My group sessions were sometimes very rugged and heated but always stimulating). I was the only employee/therapist there who was not "in recovery" from an addiction problem, so I was a bit of a maverick. But I did learn that once an alcoholic one always has that weakness (some argue that it is an illness but not all recovering addicts and experts agree with that). Relapse can be devastating enough but square that with a religious injunction from a god you believe in that copious amounts of wine at a ritual celebration to enhance the "brain's" magical power and you have a formula for utter personal disaster.

I wish your mother well and hopefully she has enough remaining good sense and personal power to abstain at the rituals.

Maybe others can tell you what happens at RSE meetings these days.

Joe

Marie, alcohol abounds at most of these seminars. It is impossible to imagine one attending who is not what would be considered "drunk" on several occasions. These sessions are used to ensure continued financial support.

Marie.......
For the record......the big wine drinking days are over at RSE. There is NO way that they could ever get away with THAT again.

I myself was a bad drunk in my younger days and had been sober from day one at RSE in 1988 until June of 1996......the first wine ceremony.

I was drunk all over again for the next 9 years. (Thanks R.A.M. for making me have to go through ALL that again. The only difference being that I never got arrested this time around.) BUT I Lost everything I had. Job, free and clear house, sanity,.....will.

I still drink now. But not very much. Wine leaves me hurt for to many days in a row so I don't over indulge hardly ever. Maybe this means I am cured.

Your Mom will come to that "fork in the road" eventually if she stays with RSE. Thats how that group operates. Learning by the fires of personal failure.

And there is nothing like despair felt after amplified drunken states of delusions of grandeur to wake one up especially when the lawyers are at the door demanding payment.

Hi Marie,
I agree with Wolfman - when the wine drinking started and throughout the "truth teachings" (1996 to somewhere around 2001) the drinking was OVER THE TOP. JZ/"Ramtha" insisted people drink according to her/"his" command. "Let's have a drink!!!" s/he would shout. Many, many hours later when the "party" was over the arena looked like a horizontal trash heap.

All of this was in the name of "enlightenment." According to JZ/"Ramtha" drinking red wine "drops the veil" and allows her/"him" direct access to the subconscious mind. (All aspiring Christs need help from their hierophant says JZ/"Ramtha".) (Scarey thought!)

Nowadays wine drinking at RSE is more moderate but as Wolfman said about himself, the habit can then spill over into one's personal life. If drinking is a good thing, is more better? And what about all those health benefits? Will drinking wine make me closer to becoming a Christ? After all, JZ/"Ramtha" says it is a way to get rid of my personality (individuality) and that is a goal of RSE.

Prior to 1996 JZ/"Ramtha" said alcohol is bad for you. It kills brain cells which can never be replaced. Don't drink.

Does this contradictory behavior make JZ/"Ramtha" a hypocrite, a liar or both?
Or perhaps she is simply making money at the expense of others? And she has a very clever name for it, "creating your own reality."

Buyer beware!

While the heavy drinking on the RSE campus days may be over, it is my observation the last 2 years that RSE members are strongly influenced by peers to drink wine . It is a bonding behavior, reinforces allegiance to R thru often lengthy toasts: going from one person to the next, 'speaking their truth' as a toast to their future or things they want to happen (already done), ‘To Life’ imitating R, the most common. It is bizarre, speaking ram-ese, and I did it too.

But what I am pointing out is, if your mom socializes with anyone from the school at gatherings, wine is present, and you are ‘expected’ to ‘toast’ with everyone there. If she would refuse to participate, it would be awkward for her. The social pressure to drink wine is significant. I mean you can say a few times you don’t like to drink/drive or some other excuse. But, the bottom line is, if she doesn’t partake, she wouldn’t be included in that circle of friends for very long.

I have to say in the short time I was affiliated with the school, I was shocked again and again by the variations of alcoholism. I ‘see it’ because I grew up with it. MANY people seem to have an childhood history involving alcohol, abusive or both. (Interesting, that JZ also shares that history.) The first wine ceremony I attended (supposedly like the ‘good old times’) was truly offensive, with R’s abusiveness, foul language, vomiting on stage. I was horrified - R could tell people to do something and they would do it. Not just at events, either. It seems a favored party theme to host your own wine ceremonies with friends. Perhaps to work up tolerance for the real thing... It's blind adherence to the commands in off hours, with 'friends' as witness to your 'greatest. Such folly.

So, ask your mom what she does for fun – does she have any good women friends. Find out what she’s into (besides preparing for the days to come!) like nutrition (the food co-op), nature trails or biking (there are some nice ones) to see if she is active or can give instances of fun outings. Or maybe she reads till all hours of the night. Or gets up at 4 am to walk her neighborhood, or stares at a candle in front of a mirror all evening… If she is not doing some of these things, then she may be drinking wine to assure her acceptance by people she thinks are her friends. But friends don’t let friends become addicts…to anything that takes away their power, their self.

"The first wine ceremony I attended was truly offensive, with R's abusiveness, foul language, vomiting on stage. I was horrified - R could tell people to do something and they would do it."

Unfortunately this description paints an accurate picture of RSE "wine ceremonies." And it provides some insight into the invisibility of mind control. How is it that R can tell someone to do something and they will do it? Peer pressure will always be a factor, mirror neurons play a role and what about the influence of alcohol? Yes, it is known to reduce one's inhibitions and critical thinking capacity. So could it be used as a method for training naive people? Training naive people to do what?

I appreciate all replies.

I asked my mother about her involvement with the alcohol related activities last night after I posted ... She says that "yes, they used to have wine ceremonies" but not so much now, and that there are "all types of people there" and not everyone participats in all activities... She says she feels no pressure to drink and that there are other alcoholics there who also don't drink and that it's just like "choosing" to participate in some of what R says, but not all, like, she has mentioned "preparing for the future" but that she doesn't actively do this either... she used that as an example I guess of not feeling a lot pressure to comply with everything R teaches...

I must add that my mother is 73 years old, and has decided to move to Yelm to be at or near the ranch -- to give up everything and "rent a room from a master"... I asked her if she was giving them money -- she doesn't have much to give, and she said no...only what she pays for classes.... But needless to say, I am a little concerned for her wellbeing..

For the most part, I have not interfered with her spiritual beliefs, I think everyone must do what their heart tells them... But after this decision to move there, and reading more about it online on different sites and this one, I have to say I don't like it... I believe what seems to be the drift here -- that JZ is a pretty good con artist and takes advantage of honest, kind people with good intentions.. It never sat right with me that someone supposedly teaching spirituality would charge money for that "privilege"... and that this person had gotten so many facelifts, and that it also just happened that this persons' favorite musical era was the 70s, advocates prozac, chocolate and wine parties!... This all sounds like a now middle aged woman's dream...

Anyway, I am sorry for everything all of you have gone through -- I have read a lot of the posts -- and I appreciate you letting me vent my frustrations and worry here...

Marie-
Thank you for sharing, and everyone else as well.
This was my experience.

I was an avid runner for 8 years until I heard the "Minerals and Transmuting tape" whereby "R" said the oxygen we were breathing was deadly, or something to that effect (not a direct quote, and I am NOT listening to that tape again to get it). So I stopped running cold turkey.
I was a tee-totaler, as was everyone else was when I moved to Yelm.
I recall one time going into the Clearwood
Store in the early 90's. It was a hot summer day, and I thought, " a cold beer sounds good right now."
I bought it, walked out, saw two masters look at me with the most disgusted look,
along with massive amounts of guilt, and
I dumped it out.
A few years later (circa 1996 -2002) "the dark Lord" years ( as "r") called them;
the "truth teachings";vile , abusive words along with copious amounts of wine.
(No less than 1 bottle, 2 if you were "average"). Then the "petite chats" with JZ, interspersed there. She said she could not tolerate wine, so she chugged tequila. So many jumped on board with THAT one (and still do, as all the devotees do as the channel often does-and STILL do).
During the first wine ceremony period (that summer) I had gotten together with someone who was 12 years sober.
I had NO clue what that meant.
Or what alcoholism was.
I certainly learned fast.
My partner then became involved in the school and quickly resumed the alcoholic drinking.
By this time, I had consulted a counselor (who had been in school for 20 years, but dropped out by then). I went both by myself, AND with joint sessions with my partner.
At this point "R" made some remarks about
1 wine ceremony equalling 7 years of therapy. Wow. sounds good. Let's drink all the time!
The joint sessions of counselling could go no further due to my partner's refusal
of looking at the issue. I continued on with the counselling.
A horrible fight broke out between my partner and myself (with her then new drinking and sleeping buddy) and I got sent to jail.
(Mind you, I am not saying I never threw a punch, but I do think, having come out of the clink a few days later with bruises all over my face and legs and arms that we BOTH should have ended up there.)
I drank periodically
until last summer, when all of my confusion regarding RSE
was coming to a head.
I realized during this last bout, I was
"self-medicating," and have now stopped
due to the support here, and couple of other tools to fully recover.
You can go to dinner in Yelm at any restaurant and see most students blessing their wine. ( I absolutely refused to bless my wine in public as I thought we looked like absolute idiots.)
I know many students who still drink wine and tequila.
I know one lady,who has NOT been in school for about 8 years, who STILL does
her 4 am toast of wine (that we learned way back when), then moves on to vodka for the rest of the day.
On the two days she works, she holds off til she gets home.
Do you think I think abuse of wine and tequila is pervasive in and beyond the school?
Ask me if I think most of the students are
addicted in some way or another? And as a result of the school?
He^& yes!!
I think all you can do is be there for your mother when the chips start to fall.
That is what my family (of origin) has done for me.
They have called me all summer, telling me there were often worried about me (that was news to me) and my brother has sent money on numerous occasions.
Just be there for your mom when her eyes begin to open. Hold her, and give her plenty of kleenex, and then support her in the way that best suits her when that point arrives.
Best wishes and thoughts Marie.

Marie,
I hope that you won't mind me sying that some of your Mom's answers to you aren't adding up. First of all, if she is renting a room from a "Master" then she is becoming heavily immersed in the RSE pseudoculture. "Masters" hang around together continuously talking about the "latest teaching" and swapping "war stories." JZ/"Ramtha" teaches that there are 2 kinds of people - "Masters" and villagers. "Masters" are supposedly working on "mastering" their personalities in the quest of becoming God while villagers are and always will be people enslaved to their senses. Over time, RSE "Masters" develop a subtle feeling of disdain for the rest of humanity who are not responding to the lofty and inspiring words of "Ramtha the Enlightened One." It is a standard practice in cult conditioning to create a feeling of "we are the elite" and JZ/"Ramtha" accomplishes this with the "Master"/villager teaching.

Once that feeling of "I am different, I am better" has been instilled in a new member the peer pressure becomes enormous. Your Mom's statement, "not everyone participates in all activities" is vague and may have been intended to skirt the issue. In my experience and opinion "students" at RSE are being mentally programmed and may make statements not necessarily in sync with reality. They may not know what reality is. I didn't. But believe me, they think they know what reality is. It is all part of the programming.

And so it does not come down to "everyone must do what their heart tells them." This is a kind and generous sentiment which, in my opinion and experience, does not apply to RSE.

If it were my Mom and I cared about her I would invest some time learning about what cults are and then share the information. I would say, "Mom, you seem to have found something meaningful to you and I would like to know more about it." In the process of sharing you can tell her what you know about cults. If your Mom wants to be in a cult that is OK, the point is that she knows she is in a cult. Over the years JZ/"Ramtha" as always said, "Cult is a dirty little four letter word." And, "This is NOT a cult! There are no seatbelts on the floor!!" (The floor is where people sit.)

In my experience and opinion RSE is a cult. I attended for 15 years NEVER HAVING ANY IDEA I WAS INVOLVED IN A CULT. That is how cults work. To understand what a cult is and how they operate a good book is "Cults in our Midst" by Margaret Singer.

I agree with a little bit of everything
here.
Having been involved for 19 years, if You had told me three years ago I was in a cult, I would have laughed at you.
The last couple of years, I don't know;
Things just started to conflict in my
head-not totally clearly, but I wasn't
getting much out of the teachings.
And I would definitely agree with the fact that, if she is renting from a master, BIG TIME involved. Can't say about
the amount of drinking.
You would have to see it for yourself
I guess.
You mentioned other things.
Maybe you may want to touch on these things here for any more
input.

Hi Marie,

I do agree with the suggestion to continue to educate yourself about cults and how they operate. It's that wisdom that you can use to guide your mother. I think it will give you the knowledge to 'know when to hold em' and know when to fold em', so to speak. In other words, when to say things to her, and when to wait for a better time.

I do think timing is of the essence when it involves a current cult member having the realization that they ARE in a CULT !!! It's quite rattling.

I have been described by RSE students as "very sincere". I WAS very sincere ! It was on MY end of the student-teacher relationship that the sincerity existed, ONLY. That is what I realized. I stayed on the straight and narrow (doing my disciplines, genuinely wanting to "evolve", living my life with integrity, etc). What I saw on the Other End, was a lot of manipulation, game playing, using & disrespecting people...using them as stepping stones to achieve a goal, being "badder" than I ever would have believed a "teacher" could be.

The hard truth is that some people, despite the efforts of family/loved ones, stay in RSE until they AGE and maybe get diseased, and die.

Others, perhaps like myself, (and others here)who appeared to be "sincere students", have a lightbulb go off, and get outta there ! I hope for your sake, (and hers), your mother will be one of those.

Hey all,

Thanks again for all of your input....To be honest, it scared the crap out of me today to read your posts -- I guess for me, it's one thing to think your 73 year old mother may be going off to the other side of the country, without a support system, or much financial means, to study or immerse herself in a culture and way of thinking that is run by a leader who seems to have some fairly serious issues -- throw on top of that your mother is an alcoholic who has not attended an AA meeting in about 28 years and who got into this in the first place via my sister who has been with JZ/Ramtha for about 16? years and at one time years ago told me that it is "possible that if you meditate on it long enough you can make yourself not an alcoholic"....I am nearly beside myself.

I do know however and appreciate your reiterating that really, there isn't much I can do at this point... just let her know that I am here for her when and if she needs me... I don't know that she will be living with a master... she has said that's what she'd LIKE to do, but I don't know if that is possible for her.. Are there certain requirements?.. I know my sister is aspiring to be a master, if not already one and what someone said about masters acquiring a disdain for the rest of humanity sure rang a bell...My sister's conversations are nearly dripping with condescension to the point I can't even stand do talk to her anymore... Her and husband have bought a house in Yelm and while they don't live there now, plan on retiring there at some point...

Is it possible that my mother truly believes she doesn't need to drink to progress through the ranks, and will only find out about the pressure to do so once she's there fulltime??... Either she's not being honest with me about how much drinking really goes on there, or she is just very naive, which could also be the case... I'm sure my sister was involved prior to 01 though, so she must have gone through the wine ceremonies... I also know enough about alcoholism to know that if she is drinking now, it won't stay a secret for long....

More questions -- so what is the deal with money exactly?.. Just classes, books, videos, that kind of thing?.. but in the sense that in order to get to higher levels you must be able to afford taking those classes, etc... ?

If she didn't stay with a master, what other options would she have? She has said there is a "list" of housing availabilities.. what do you know about those?

Thanks for holding my hand...

PS -- we also had "the cult conversation" the other night and she kept saying "but it's NOT a cult!".. and I kept looking at her and saying "YES, it IS a cult".. and she just didn't get it... But I understand the dynamic... hard to watch, though when it's someone you love.

Marie,

No time for me to type much now...but just to say YES it is hard for you to watch when you love the person involved.
My family tolerated my tenure at RSE, for many years. They couldn't say much to me that was bad, because I knew it all. I had the pat answers, for all of their concerns or complaints or criticisms. Well, at least it may have seemed that way. Some of the things they said, sat on the back burner of my mind for a long time. Occasionally resurfacing. Until the day when the list of "red flags" that I had accumulated was topped by "Ramtha's" explosive tirade and threats, made toward me, from out of nowhere. I did not deserve the outburst, nor do I accept it to this day. "Ramtha" was emotionally OUT OF CONTROL. A God?

Hardly. Just an ..bleep..hole.

What would your mother say if you told her you talked to some former, long time experienced students, who think she oughta get the heck out of Dodge ?

She might blame the former students - or maybe not.

I'm hear to tell you that nobody ever thought I would leave. I may have been sincere - but I'm not stupid when I get attacked as I did - and did not deserve it.

Later ...

Just responding to your comment, Wolfie: "I myself was a bad drunk in my younger days and had been sober from day one at RSE in 1988 until June of 1996......the first wine ceremony."

I remember wine ceremonies in the pre-RSE days in the late 1980s, during the 2 Ramtha Dialogues retreats I attended at Yucca Valley. We'd arrive in the lecture hall to find already-filled wineglasses laid out on tables just in front of the stage. We were told to "find your glass" under "Ramtha's" watchful eye. Of course we believed there was one special glass for each of us--reminds me somewhat of finding one's card on the fence--and sometimes when we found that one glass that drew our eyes, we'd raise it and salute "Ramtha" and get an approving nod in return.

One glass was all we drank at a wine ceremony in those days...it all seemed so benign back then...

Hi Marie,
Hmmm, your sister and brother-in-law are involved, too? That raises the stakes considerably because Mom is naturally inclined to trust them. Your voice will be small compared to theirs, nonetheless there is still plenty you can do. Based on my own experience, in the beginning I would have looked at information presented to me whereas later on I was no longer capable of thinking rationally. The indoctrination had taken hold.

How about telling her about this website? At this point she should still be open (in theory) to learning about former students' experiences. If she says, "I heard about that website - they are all whiners and victims," just bear in mind the JZ/"Ramtha" directive "anyone who complains about ANYTHING is a victim. Victims are BAD."

There is plenty of info on this site which explains how RSE fits the cult model. Use the white search box at the top right of the page to find those threads. Print out relevant comments and share them with her. What you are offering is education and another side of the story.

Concerning your sister's comment that a person can overcome alcoholism, yes, in my experience and opinion "Ramtha's School of Enlightenment" is synonymous with "false hope." Both JZ and JZ/"Ramtha" teach about "moving to a new part of your brain where you have never been ___________." And how do you do that? By practicing the disciplines, of course, which progressively move one further and further away from reality. In this case, Mom has been trained to repeat over and over and over and over and over and over "I have never been an alcoholic."

And how will she arrive in this new part of her brain where she has "never been an alcoholic?" By magic but that is not the terminology used. JZ and JZ/"Ramtha" borrow liberally from neuroscience and the physics of quantum mechanics and then completely misapply it.

If you want to reach Mom it has to be done sooner rather than later. I would have listened when I still had the ability to hear...

Marie-
In regards to "classes" (aka $)
There are two "required" events per year.
seniors get 1/2 discount.
One in spring for around $1000, one in fall for $500.
One is continually encouraged to keep up with the current "group" , and there is an implied "if you don't, you will be left in the dust of the march."
There are extra assays (retreats) and mini-assays (video re-plays , rarely "Ramtha" in person) that one is constantly encouraged to go to in order to hasten the enlightening process.
If you happen to miss a required event, you must start overwith a beginer's retreat, unless by the "much graciousness of JZ/R" that they allow a "catch-up" event, in which case, in 3 days time, you can hear everything you missed since 1988!
(via video tape).

JZ puts out a "recommended" reading list, which,I know for myself, felt compelled that I just HAD to be up on the latest, gratest knowledge. And some just HAD to be read by the next event.
The current recommended list is very politically motivated. Al Gore, Global
Warming, etc. The past lists have included psuedo-science Quantum Physics,
Masters of the Far East et al,
the Fairy Tale phase,etc.

As far as housing, we were not joking under the heading of "you know you are a master when you have 12 roommates in a mobile home." Many Ramsters provide a room
in a house, but for astromical prices.
I am sure your mother stays within her budget, just with the fact she is 73.
But Ramsters are very fickle. You are the best room mate since sliced bread one minute, then "you are part of my past!!"
WHOOSH! and they will toss you out like
limp lettuce. All in the name of:
"I am evolving faster than you."
(I am not kidding. I know one man who is current, who truly feels he is evolving faster than his partner of 12 years, and feels he needs to move on, yet he cannot).

One of the best examples I have seen as far as brainwashing was with Tom Cruise's interview with Matt Lauer on the today show.
Tom seems just like a regular Joe, funny, charming, nice guy, good actor, great father, etc. THEN you get on a topic that is hot with the group-in Scientology's case: psychiatry.
Tom interjects to Matt:
"Matt...Matt...Matt...Matt....do you KNOW the history of psychiatry??!! I DO!!"

Do you know how many children of scientologists have killed their parents or tried to maim themselves becuase their parents were scientologists and REFUSED to have their manic-depressive or borderline personality dis-ordered children be on any medication, all in the name of "I KNOW THE HISTORY OF PSYCHIATRY"??!! True madness. And it looks all legit and sweet. pfft!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQCR02Unqhg

While thinking about all of this it has ocurred to me that:

1. actively engaging in activities that not only allow but encourage one to deny reality;
2. denying your own personal essence and who you "really" are;
3. seeking to be "something other than who you are" -- moving to a different neighborhood?;
4. seeking to alter your emotions and feelings;
5. shutting down your emotions and feelings;
6. isolating oneself from friends and family;
7. holding oneself in higher regard because only "you" really know "the truth" -- friends and family not involved in these activities do not;
8. abuse of oneself and others around you;
9. obsessiveness with controlling one's environment;
10. profound lack of trust in just life itself

How characteristic all of these traits are to alcoholics and drug addicts... And no, it had not escaped me that Ms. Knight's family of origin was / is alcoholic... I often thought that was the subconscious attraction for both my mother and sister, since we also have that background...