Housekeeping: As is posted on the EMF Message Board page, this forum is for support, sharing opinions and experiences for those who have left RSE and have doubts and concerns about their tenure there. It is NOT a place for proselytizing for RSE, JZK Inc or Ramtha. Play nicely or your post will be sent to cyberspace time-out for all eternity. The disclaimer for EMF is located on this page http://enlightenmefree.com/disclaimer.html and all posters agree to the terms of the disclaimer. Be sure you've read it before posting.
You may also want to visit a complementary forum at FACTNet http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/779.html
If you wish to use a Spell Checker, you may wish to use this free one: http://www.jacuba.com/
I know this site is for former students, but it also has a lot of information for - I gather - people like me.
Two months ago I first heard about Ramtha, and I was immediately skeptical. The contradiction was that a lady who I greatly respect mentioned him.
Two months on, and I'm booked in to do the Beginners course this weekend... But I've been having weird feelings.
I spent the last few HOURS sifting through this site, and factnet, and several others and I am rather confused (and not to mention a little scared!)
Something that got to me initally was the cost: $1000 for the three days, NOT including food or accomodation.
It didn't make sense... sure, cover the running costs but ? what was the $1000 for exactly?
I guess the point is that I would like to know more about it, have there been any significant discrepancies over the years or some kind of proof that .. that JZ is a fraud?
The other thing that got to me was that there's no refunds! What kind of an Enlightenment school is this?
I forgot to add that this is in Sydney, and no one who I've spoken to has ever heard of Ramtha.
If you decided not to go, then tell them you want a refund because you cannot attend. If they refuse, dispute the claim with your charge card company (assuming you charged it). I don't believe it's legal to take money for a service not rendered. I don't know of a business that can refuse to give you YOUR money when they didn't provide the service or product.
I also know for a fact that they DO give refunds. They've given them to some people and denied others. Just tell them to REFUND YOUR MONEY.
Couldn't it be argued that I booked knowing that there were no refunds or transfers? So I have no right to any money back? How interesting that people have had refunds...
I've read so much tonight about Ramtha that I wasn't aware of; a part of me is curious to witness and experience it (whatever it may be), but the other part is doubtful and it actually feels wrong inside. I think also I'm stuck because I trust this woman, but then most things about Ramtha conflict with what I feel!
yes, it is very difficult to get your money back from them.
Put in a dispute with your credit card company NOW.Then, give yourself some time to look at facts. There is no hurry to enlightenment
As far as your conflicting feelings about Ramtha and the respect of your friend:
there are brain surgeons, scientists, college studets, soccer moms, etc who attend RSE. They are all above average intelligence and respected in their peer group. So , it is so with your friend.
But ANYONE , and I mean ANYONE, can get caught up in any kind of organization.
Look at Tom Cruise and his Scientology
Great actor, but people who have left scientology have been severely harassed and even killed for having left such a group.
Thank God, RSE is not that extreme (um, "as it is seen now" ).
But the ostracism, esp if you live locally, is highly highly visible and felt.
Take me for instance.
I am now on the official security board in the main office. And for what?
I spoke out?
I can walk into the local beuaty salon or grocery store, and I get "that look" from current students as if to say, "How DARE you speak badly about my teacher ?!"
I can assure you that David is not welcome
on the grounds as well.
Take your time.
Honor your intuition.
And put in a dispute with the credit card company.
as whatcha said, RSE is VERY selective as to who gets a refund. And mostly, they do not.
Often times, if you have a dying relative, they will let you come to the next "required" event if you have to miss the first event.
But they hold on tight to every penny that pours in.
another after thought about your respected friend:
if someone had told me 2 years ago that JZ was a fraud or Ramtha was such and such, I would have probably said a one liner about how ignorant that person was ( since I knew much more than they ) and turned on my heel and rolled my eyes.
How arrogant I was to think that MY belief system was so much greater than anyone else's.
I now understand how people can get caught up in Palestine, Iraq, Turkey, the Christian Right, etc.
The brain can conform to ANY group.
The middle path ( and whatever that means to you) might be the more prudent way to go as far as reaching out to fellow humans.
Seems like you are a bit conflicted about your close friend and her feelings if you might not attend after having registered.
One idea might be (and you might check this out with the former students) Would be if you are presented with something to sign before entry, simply state that you did not understand that you would be required to sign the agreement when you sent in your money and demand a refund on the spot. You may even want to say this in a loud voice if you can..
There are a couple of places on the site which have discriptions or text of documents you may be asked to sign.
this might give you an opportunity to tell your friend that you don't sign agreements like that without legal advice.
Dear Prudence - don't play with RSE. TELL them you want a refund.
I, too, was/am respected by a much younger person whom I registered for an event. He decided not to go at the last minute after doing his research and at his family's urgings. I now am very thankful this young man did NOT attend, for who knows how deeply involved he might have become? I found the initial "teachings" very interesting; however, was surprised to see a Hindu incarnation of Shiva high on the wall. The school was borrowing from everywhere. Why, even 'her ancient name,' ''Ramaya'' is from the great Indian epoch, the 'Ramayana.' 'Ram' was an incarnation of 'God' as is Shiva as is Krishna as is Jesus as is whomever we wish ourselves to see within our higher selves. Getting off-topic, but I was in the school for only a year when at my last event which I did not want to attend due to some 'intuitive' feeling within, I realized I was accepting abuse and control, something which was exactly what I experienced in organized religion while growing up. If you are interested in the teachings, Joe offers a lot of books that are the 'originals' the school 'borrowed' and gave other names and uses. There are many roads to a city and so it is with evolving. ~Aum shanti~
(Lovely response G2G)
Prudence - Blessings to you for 'listening' to your "weird feeling" and doing some research re RSE. First and foremost, all valid Sacred Traditions would encourage you to heed your "weird feelings"/inner knowing. Certainly the notion of protesting signing an agreement you didn't know you'd have to sign is an excellent exposure for RSE - only if you want to.
Secondly, there have been a number of former employees of JZKnight INC who have reported the obvious fakery of Ramtha - including her former husband Jeff Knight - who you can view on google.(or follow the links on this website.) Thirdly: if the concept, whatever the words, of "by their fruits you shall know them" is valid to you - the "fruits of Ramtha's presence in JZ's life and in the life of the students are blatant greed, need for recognition, illness, lies, cold blooded 'elimintation' of people who gain too much recognition in the world of "The School"; more botox in one body than you can imagine; an absolutely obvious behavior of an alcoholic. Although there is some validity in some of the material Ramtha teaches, the environment in which it is taught and the manner is abusive. Fourth - as G2G indicated, 90 percent of what is spoken by JZ as JZ or as Ramtha is from previously published material. There are a number of threads on this message board which list some of the source material.
There is so much evidence of fraud, it would take a book to list it all. The big question is why didn't we see that in the first place? Seeing Derren Brown videos of how easily the mind can be manipulated has been very helpful in understanding the why.(again, follow links on this website). Understanding more about how those of us who have been abused in some way in our past are more easily duped by such as JZK Inc.
Finally - can you imagine Jesus or Budha or Krishna or Mohammed being a profit making corporation.?
Recognize the Sacred Love yourself Love your friend.
It might be interesting to you (and others) to know that the google videos, overall, that you referenced, have been viewed more than 25,000 times. Clearly, there are folks who are having doubts.
WOW, Watcha - 25000!!! Awesome.
and p.s. Prudence - the LARSE Gathering videos are good to watch both for info, and to hear the kind of people JZ has representing her and her so called "School of Enlightenment". The majority of questions asked are by JZ staff and/or followers. It should be clear to you who is and isn't a "Ramster".
Wow okay, there's a bit to comment on...
The reason for my silence on this board was due to my attendance at the event. I ended up going, satisfying the curious part of me and now feeling very greatful for doing so. Slightly ripped off from a monetary point of view (Seven JZ/Ramtha video teachings) but I won't go into that (yet!)
Due to this forum, I was offered a refund (thank you) but it was too late. How about now though?
Many things surprised me, at the very end of the final day after field work (I only did the four beginner days) after I had seen "Ramtha" for the first time, he and five or so others strode away, not glancing back, and we were told to now do a neighbourhood walk. One teacher stayed behind to seemingly guard the gate. I was scattered, none of what had happened made sense: what being - who claimed to love us all so - would act in such a way? I was emotional and in no frame of mind to ramble on to myself when all I was feeling was confusion and bitterness. I accept that I was creating that reality for me, I needed to embrace those emotions.
But I ducked under the wire fence, picked up my coat and told my partner that I'm not doing it, I'm not here, I'm ready to go. And as I started to walk I heard an agressive shout "HEY! Where do you think You're going?!"
"Uh... to.. get my things?"
"You can't do that! It's a neighbourhood walk! You can't go anywhere!"
And I don't know why but that summed up the whole retreat: there was so much secrecy and mystery around the teachers and the "masters" - do you call them? - that to even walk in the same direction that JZ had was NOT ALLOWED. I didn't Have to do anything, but the control and accusation (as well as agression) in her tone hit me to the core.
I then sat for a moment to settle myself, walked to the end of the field and burst into tears.
And that was the best feeling of the whole weekend!
I didn't understand why the cost would be several hundred (no accom/food), and then on the Sunday it was an extra $250 to have Q & A time.
Does that make sense to anyone?
You've paid for the course, then you pay more to see Mr. Ramtha, and even then nothing is guaranteed.
My partner and I did not pay for this because I did not believe in the principle of it; the moral behind the payment. It segregated the group (maybe only 35 of the 300+ didn't do it for whatever reasons), and made me think that the whole sunday (minus the evening's video) was in essence a waste of day. But was that the reality I chose to create?! No I had a great day irrespective, but I just don't get it.
I would have liked to ask why, (and I did!) why you would ask for More money. What kind of "teacher" does that?
There was also a comment said rather flippantly about "us being a step above the rest". I thought I was venturing into the school to get away from that kind of righteous mentality.
Thank you for your replies, it's good to know that I can discuss this openly. I am curious to know more, I will look into this (this being the school, background, discrepancies etc) even more until I am at peace with my little unsettled feelings inside.
are very nearly caught up in being caught up.
I can see it in your words, both pro and con.
or you might end up like most of us.....9 years, 18 years, 12 years, with split personlality disorders, PTSD, bi-polar all exacerbated by the experience.
We have tried to warn you.
Good luck dear.
You just attended a beginners in Bathurst right? I am really surprised that you were charged extra for food and accomodation. When I did a retreat in Bathurst (it was the first one they had in the world tour in Australia) food and accommodation was included. Only we did not have the pleasure of seeing JZ/R it was videos the whole time. I guess they had to make up the cost somewhere this time in having JZ fly out here first class no doubt and staying at the Park Hyatt at Circular Quay whilst in Sydney.
As far as the arrogance from the staff, it's so typical of the RSE mentality, and then to have the audacity of baiting you by saying "your so special, your really advanced". I have had many a negative interaction with RSE organisers in Yelm and also the Aussie mob. If you need someone closer to home (I also live in Sydney) to meet up with and have a yarn feel free to email me at any time
Tree wrote: '''Prudence-
You are very nearly caught up in being caught up.
I can see it in your words, both pro and con.''''
I agree with Tree. Your 'inner voice' was initially correct in warning you. Out of curiosity, you did go which of course, is your own decision, and you ought not be dismissed for making your own decision. Isn't that exactly what you did at the very end when you ducked under the fence to get your things and decided, on your own, to not engage in the neighbourhood walk? What was the consequence? You already experienced it. It doesn't get better. Oh, I'm certain the feel-good we-all-love-you in our 'blue bodies' and 'my sinus problem has gone!' etc. etc. etc. (fill in the blank), as well as people finding their cards and getting remote views (how many of those were butterflies, hearts, flowers, feathers? And the future remote views, deliciously wrapped in flowered satin boxes and lovely ribbons, with a rabbit, pig, magazine article, photograph within?
You'll need to make your own decisions. It's not that everything taught is hogwash. It's that things taught DO NOT BELONG to those teaching. They have borrowed from ancient and other teachings.
Just try and leave a 'tank' session.
The 'voice' calling to you, 'what do you think you're doing?' Did you ask this staff person what are they talking about? DO THEY NOT TELL YOU, YOU ARE FREE TO LEAVE AT ANYTIME?
Apparently not. So the psychological begins. The music was wonderful, as was the dancing and feel-good relationship with partners and others. 'You are God.' Well, that's not new either. Hinduism and Buddhism has been saying it for a long time, as did Christ. Oh, and the sessions of C&E will bring on tears, for we 'spend entire lives living in the first three 'seals' (renamed from the original 'energy centers' or eastern 'chakras.') It's a wonderful feeling, isn't it? But you don't need RSE to feel wonderful. You only need YOU.
And so it begins with another.. just one more event, just read one more article...spend more airfare, but another DVD,...just one more, honest.
It's how it all starts, and when and if one 'awakens,' they awaken to the fact they have NOT been in control of themselves at all. Not at all. Did you leave anyway, after the staff (was it Michelle?) yelled at you? Did you tell her, 'YES I CAN LEAVE OR YOU ARE HOLDING ME AGAINST MY WILL?'
It is your decision, of course. But as Tree pointed out, the signs are there in the language. So many of us began that way. Just one more time to see..."OH. I FOUND MY CARD! It works! Oh, I got remote views!"
Of course you did, but it had nothing to do with who taught this to you..
Many blessings to you in whatever you choose. We'll be here when you're through.
In "high demand" groups, one of the first experiences that people have is called the romance phase. You get introduced to the feel good part of the teaching and get emotionally hooked.
The dissonance that is caused by the flip side of the coin, the aggressive facilitators and similar things, are what is causing you to have an inner struggle. It's an attempt to get you to quiet your critical thinking and simply stop thinking so you can OBEY orders. Beware.
Pay attention to the struggle feeling. You don't need RSE to have the "feel good" feeling. You also can find the INFORMATION in other places, too. As has been already stated, the eastern mysticism that is addressed at RSE, can be found in a lot of other resources - and - for far less money, if that's what you're looking for.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Sounds like you had a good taste of the authoritarian nature of the group. It also sounds like you may understand how you came to conform to the group’s rules and regulations instead of your own inner "knowingness". The hypocrisy should be obvious to you.
"I am curious to know more, I will look into this (this being the school, background, discrepancies etc) even more until I am at peace with my little unsettled feelings inside. "
From your original post you did not see to have "unsettled feelings" notice how now you are experiencing these. The group dynamic orchestrated by JZ and the gang makes sure if they cannot hook one well in the beginning that they shake them up enough so that they no longer feel grounded.
This is the hook; this is the beginning of the carrot on the stick. Do not participate and those unsettled feelings will eventually dissipate. If you do participate at some time, those feelings will be settled for you but not by you and that is a BIG difference.
Best of luck and keep us posted!
What a lot of interesting responses...
thank you all, you have helped me re-confirm my persistent feelings about the whole thing, and to be okay when I confront my good friend about my experience and interpretations.
It's interesting that my partner who I went with was slightly more accepting than me; or at least he was more open with less judging (he later said that I was being a little brat - with arms folded and head down and not standing to toast JZ on the videos and not "talking to my neighbour" about "what I'd just learnt" [and I admit I was being stubborn because something didn't feel right about the whole thing] but in the space of two days he's changed his opinion too.
I heard him on the phone telling a friend about the weekend, and it sounded like he had thought a lot more about it and he realised that he doesn't agree with a lot of it.
''''In "high demand" groups, one of the first experiences that people have is called the romance phase. You get introduced to the feel good part of the teaching and get emotionally hooked''''
This is what is so hypocritical, for JR taught 'you are ADDICTED TO YOUR EMOTIONS! There are emotions you haven't even felt!'
So, honeymoom phase leads to 'addiction' to the group. It 'feels' good - initially. Then guilt, shame, pointing out people in the audience and 'shaming' them -you see in later events, certainly not a beginner's 'honeymoon' event! For who would come back if the true colors were shown from the get-go?
Trust in yourself. The 'niggling' voice within already KNOWS.
Yes, it does feel good intially, when you've joined a group such as RSE. You think you've found a place where you can learn new techniques to advance your spiritual life. Then, you get hooked to The Feel Good Promise.
Next, the discomfort sets in when the criticisms, however small, then larger, start up as the teacher points out students' foibles and shortcomings. It creates a feeling in the student that is uncomfortable, so they try harder to reach that carrot that the teacher has dangling in front of the students.
Otherwise, it's called, the teacher is now CONTROLLING the students' emotions.
Next, the teacher becomes mildly to more, abusive. It can be physical, emotional, psychological, spiritual...and the student is like a caged animal trying to escape the pain. They try to be perfect and do their disciplines, focus harder, do everything better. They fail. There are no christs in RSE.
The students try to attain that feel good feeling that had when they were initially hooked into RSE. Entrenched.
The lucky ones face a deeper pain; the realization that they've been misled. They leave and deal with their recovery from a cult. They move on with their lives, and some of them turn around, and shine a bright light of truth about cults, for others...because they care.
Oh, that carrot!
Wasn't one of the staffers called out by the 'big guy/gal' for using a carrot for, uh, how to word this carefully. Let's just say she certainly wasn't putting it in her blender to make carrot juice!