Has JR ever discussed the Annunaki? Very curious to hear the 'position' on the Annunaki, 'angels,' - things along this line. All I have heard is the Jehovah story and not much of it. Have also been at events where R-tha was under the influence of the 'fruit of the vine' and he/she said 'all because of that @#$ Jehovah who hated his sister because she was smarter than he was and had better sex than he did'. I know you can all add more to this. This is all I heard with a bit from one of Micael's lectures.One other thing was we were told Jehovah never lived as man, so I might sound silly here asking this, but exactly then what type of 'being' is Jehovah? Are we getting into the lizard end of things here?

The Annunaki scenario according to Sitchin certainly would be a great miniseries. It's startling when you look at the old testament from the different perspective.

There is a Ramtha Dialogues tape from 1982 titled,
"Yahweh/Jehovah."

Yes, Annunaki, the galactic ****ers. Jehovah is not a lizard.They are humanoids from planet X/Nibiru, more brawny,taller,beautiful than us. They came here 455.000 years ago to mine for gold. Jehovah is a homosexual, but gave Sarah, the wife of Abraham, a "royal ****". Jacob? is Jehova's son. According to Ramtha Jehovah was stationed on planet Mars before he came to ancient Egypt as a "god" and finally found a fanatic(Abraham)in Babylonia who started to raise an army for him to fight his enemy Yahweh (Pleadian)...to be continued.

Do you know if the 1982 tape is around and about anywhere? So Yahweh of the old testament is the being who provided the 'commandments' to Moses (according to Ramtha)? Or was it Jehovah? Also, then is Jehovah an Annunaki according to Ramtha and is Yahweh not an Annunaki but Pleadian? Sitchin's work does seem to validify the Annunaki. Then is Yahweh a peaceful entity or humanoid? Who is fighting whom and why, did Ramtha ever explain?

According to "Ramtha," Yahweh is a good guy and Jehovah is a bad guy. So what does that make "Ramtha?"

Doesn't it seem funny to those of you that know that the book "LOVE YOURSELF INTO LIFE" is no longer owned by
JZK INC or Judy Rose with Thorns or RSE or whatever her new corporation is known by?

I wonder why she didn't buy back the rights to THIS book?

I see it on EBAY selling for $1500.

Greedy *******s those Ramsters.

G2G, I have that set of tapes. I have just about every set of tapes/CD's that ever came out. FOOL.
sigh

Anyway, the aliens according to the Ramtha dogma is that the main characters are Yaheweh (good), Jehovah (bad), and Id (peaceful/good). There were some wars, and Jehovah "won", but NOW, he's getting his butt handed to him.

Jehovah was described as one who was the "God" of the Jewish people, and was a real *******. He allegedly did not/does not like humans and treats them very badly. He will lie to them, use them, has no respect for them...you get the idea.

Ramtha has said that Jehovah is back here, watching this planet, which is not a good thing.

GTG-

I believe those old tapes have been upgraded to CD's and are available at the Quantum Cafe- $14.95.

"Love Yourself into Life " is selling on EBay for $1500? That is perhaps Judy selling it - a new marketing technique!

And if she is no longer publishing it maybe it wasn't hers to begin with??????????????????????

"Jehovah was described as one who was the "God" of the Jewish people, and was a real *******. He allegedly did not/does not like humans and treats them very badly. He will lie to them, use them, has no respect for them...you get the idea."


For a minute there I thought you were talking about Ramtha!!!!!!

G2G,
If you can't find the tape/CD, I'll send you mine. My RSE library is huge.

Help me to understand. Why do you wish to hear the old tapes on Jehovah and Yawheh? I am just confused.

What can those tapes provide to you? Do you still believe in the info R gave? Is there a time period in which you believe the info was valid and a time in which you believe it stopped being valid?

How do you determine what to keep and what you let go of?

We all have our own way of healing. As a member of this site, I support you in your path, I just want to understand.

There are parts of the "work" that I loved dearly and enjoyed doing, which made me feel good, and strong- I have avoided them because I do not wish to get sucked back in-

I truly empathise with you GTG- as you stated in a different thread- you mentioned this is a time when you need your faith the most- and find yourself "flat"- and you have a desire to listen to the music which gave you comfort in the past, but wish to avoid an "anchor". I really understand- as I feel exactly the same way. And there are loads of great info out there- wonderful books and such which were wonderful inspiration to me "before R" but now provide no umph. I think Cowboy called this the "pause".

Other threads mention other books which J may have gotten the info and presented as R's-

When you guys read this- DO YOU BELIEVE THE INFO, but dismiss our previous "teacher" as taking advantage of us for financial gain?

Or do you read it to see that h/she is not the origin of the info, she plagorized and to prove in your mind you are not cut off from the information?

I really wish to understand-

A while ago someone posted that they left the schoool after Boktau of '96- I happened to have the tapes from the follow up boktau of 96 and pulled them out to listen - to see if I could find any clues. the fact was, I could barely listen to one side of one tape- I found it boring and lacking of any substance. It no longer had the magnetic pull of my attention and amazement- I guess I am no longer "frequency specific" with it!

Thank you for responding.

Hello,

I just wanted to recommend to her buying "A Master's Reflection on the History of Humanity" Vol.1+2 which is available on amazon.com and contains the trascription of this tape. Geeeeeeeeez, they sell used copies for 1.000$ !!!

G2G,

according to Ramtha/JZ:
Jehovah was the one who provided the "commandements" to Moses, but it was Ramtha & Andromedans who helped the Jews to enter Israel, Jehovah left his people to fight Yahweh and Id (he lost the war). Yehovah belongs to the Annunaki, Yahweh is a humanoid from the Pleades who helped to advance the human race. Id's people (also from the Pleades) don't look anything like us. They resemble ET (Spielberg was a channel according to Ramtha)with green eyes and very round heads. Ramtha also mentioned the Lemurians, Sercians, Andromedans (all humanoid), the Actanus, Ishamata, Zeta Reticulis and the "raiders from above"=the blue Greys from the center of our galaxy and their genetic experiments with human beings.

Discernment...

"I used to love doing the work I really enjoyed doing".

Typical ramster response. Only do what makes me feel good.

Not much awareness is gained with that little of courage.

Growth takes place in the regions you refuse to look at and those who don't dig in those regions don't get anything to smell because your afraid that your going to stink.

My "two bit" advice is, if it feels good, run from it.
If it hurts like hell then get in and tackle it to the ground and beat the bejesus out of it before it stealthily consumes all of you.

DiscernmentNow

There are parts of the "work" that I loved dearly and enjoyed doing, which made me feel good, and strong- I have avoided them because I do not wish to get sucked back in-


...same with me….
Should one stop playing the guitar, only because the guitarteacher was on a greed and power-trip ??
Monsieur le Comte mentioned that candlefocus (for example ) is a …..yoga exercise .
Why should I toss focused state in general ?
It is a great state, it does not belong to jr ---- neither do the experiences I had.
It would be interesting to open a new thread about the disziplines.

I think it takes some time to sort it all out. The way to go might be somewhere in the middle between the “school” and the “antischool “aka emf. imho.

Antischool is great, thank you .. for all this reading material (especially liked the orange papers) and the Derren Brown videos .Thanks to all the who passed through,too.

To watcha : this long name I posted on your sticky thread is a bit bulky,so feel free to delete, thanks

DN asked, "How do you determine what to keep and what you let go of?"

Exactly. In conversations I've had with others in the not-too-distant past, we commented on various things "Ramtha" said.

1) I will lie to you. I will tell you anything and do anything to get you to move/evolve/go home.

Given the education that some of us have received, not of RSE, but ABOUT RSE, and the wrongdoings we've learned of. In addition to what we may have seen/experienced, who can discern what may be true on a cosmic level, what may be JZ's regurgitating info from other sources, or what may have been the Real Ramtha of some past, but no longer is ?

In our conversation, we agreed that if we have to apply discernment to what an evolved being is telling us, then something is wrong. Either the being isn't as evolved as he says, or he isn't even home. In any case, it might be wise to take it ALL with a grain of salt, lest we get led down a rosy garden of deception.

There are a lot of resources available outside of RSE that address the types of "aliens" out there. Even online, there is a lot of info. But again, unless we have our own experience with some race of E.T. beings, how can we know that any of it is true ?

Just some thoughts.

Anyone know what "orange papers" are?

Virtual,

Do tell !

I heard the Jehovah tape in 1986 when I first seriously studied the Ramtha Dialogues to prepare for my first "Ramtha" intervention (with a 17 yr old who was about to leave home in a few weeks to go to Yelm when she turned 18---she never went --she went to college instead and has a good life). I also had a copy of Love Yourself Into Life (LYIL) and the 'White Book'---isn't the Ramtha white book a regurgitated, highly edited LYIL?
JZ's Jehovah--Yawee--Id story confused me because technically jehovah/yaweh are one and the same, just different dialectical versions of the YHWH or tetragrammaton or sacred symbolic name of G*d in the Hebrew scripture. YHWH is/was never spoken aloud---the pious Jew used Adonai (daddy or papa) in Jesus's day.

JZ borrowed elements of Gnostic myth in her discombobulated channeling about Yawee (I'm using her phonetic speech) etc. In resp to G2G "Have also been at events where R-tha was under the influence of the 'fruit of the vine' and he/she said 'all because of that @#$ Jehovah who hated his sister because she was smarter than he was and had better sex than he did'." The Gnostic myth states that 'Sophia' a female Aeon or Lightbeing from the original state of divine consciousness (Pleroma)'gave birth' illegitimately to the Demiurge or creatorGod called Ialdoboath. This Demiurge created the physical universe as we know it but against the will of the Pleroma of Lightbeings or Aeons. Sophia and the Aeons then sent "Christ" in Jesus to straighten out the mess, to convince humans to procreate no longer and to reject the phyisical world (My kingdom is not of this world). In Gnostic dualism the physical universe including our bodies are a huge mistake, are 'evil'. By having babies we merely 'trap' the sacred Light more and more. I will not go into the whole myth here, but it appeared to me in 1986 that JZ read these myths, or someone else's version of them, and reorganized them into a new myth a la Ramtha.

Wolfman-

I think you misinterpreted my post- or took my words out of context- and I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt before reacting to your slam that I gave a "typical ramster response"-

I am here healing from my experience at RSE- I posed a question to my brothers and sisters who are doing the same- I asked the posters to help me to understand what the benefit is of listening to the recordings of the "teacher" who sold us on a bunch of crap.

I posed the question-regarding what to keep and what to throw away-

I stated I have AVOIDED doing discipines-eventhough in the past they brought me joy and a sense of strength-

Letting loose of what was once one's spiritual support- even if it was false- is not a bed of roses but a pile of manuer to go through- yet the manuer provides the fertilizer for new life.

I am sifting through my experience- examining what teachings were of value, and which are just hogwash, and quite honestly, sometimes it feels like separating sugar from sand- even when I separate a grain of sugar, it still tastes bad from being mixed up in the dirt- and I question if it is better use of my time to throw out the whole sandbox and start over-

I question the what, why & how in relation to benefit to fellow posters in thier healing in order to help myself in my path toward understanding.

I do not know you and you do not know me- you have no idea what I am facing in my life, what challenges I am battling, and what courage I display on a daily basis as I dig deep in "smelly regions"- nor do I know what you are dealing with - so let't be cool- and I would appreciate it if you'd refrain from calling me a "typical ramster". That is not a nice thing to call someone in this process. Thank you.

BLIND EARTHWORM- thank you - you are right- one greedy guitar teacher should not spoil the enjoyment of playing the guitar-altogether! Point well taken- I still think I may take up a whole new instrument!

WHATCHAMACALLIT- thank you- exactly- how do we know anything is true? Personal experience is a great teacher. I guess I will just "love myself into .... a new experience!"

Thanks for the brief explanation of the Jehovah/Yaweh story, Joe. It is fascinating and would love to hear more.

Concerning the 2 books, "Love yourself into Life" and "Ramtha" (the white book) I've never really thought of them as the same although of course there is overlap as JZ/R repeats herself often!

" I guess I will just "love myself into .... a new experience!" "

YUP !

What a gift that is !

'I could barely listen to one side of one tape- I found it boring and lacking of any substance. '

DN - good points. I cannot listen or read R materials in my house - I consider it contagion and have it all - books, T-shirts, ballcaps, CDs put away in a box. In my mind, it is contained, not doing further damage.

In "PAUSE" each has their own way. G2G is reading voraciously - Alder books, Sitchin, etc. as part of hers. Using R as a still valid reference source doesn't bother her at this point. It does me, as I reorient & reacquaint myself with values & other strong 'pillars' of my reality: Nature, compassion, my belief in a benevolent,formless God.

I now find interesting posts, stories re: 'Point Forward' modus operandi (opposed to 'point zero' ones which involve R or anything 'he' said). New guideposts out of this forest (notice I did not use the analogy of labryinth...) Any triggers from that figment of Judy's imagination, her alter ego myth that helped her cope with her abuse history and now ghost of my recent past is NOT a guidepost Back to my Future. Some days for me are like in that movie (where M.J. Fox goes back to the past to change his future.) As I become more productive (versus paused), I truly do not wish to look back at Medusa, risking being turned to stone once again. So, as I tire of myths, magical thinking, I would like to hear true 'Point Forward' shares from people with good ideas, how to's applied in their lives. Kind of like the 'how to clean anything' from Heloise, focused on mental hygiene! Let us Point Forward!!!!

The cult test,questions 1 to 100
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html

"Point Forward," I really like that.

So far I have been running 2 parallel non-intersecting realities. One is a complete blank. No beliefs, no dogma, no nothing. Sounds like it might be hard to do but after the shock of RSE it isn't. It's my personal antidote. Don't want to believe in anything, the blank looks good. (By the way, that's how the bedroom got painted white. I was intending to pick out a color but when I went to do it I observed that each one represented something and I wanted nothing.)

In the other reality, I am looking at the world through new eyes. Baptism by fire best describes the current state. In the newly painted bedroom there is only one picture hanging and the caption reads,

"Do not be overcome by evil but overcome evil with good."

EWO:
here's a bit that's fairly reliable on Gnostic Sophia, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_(gnosticism)

The connection between old Gnosticism and New Ageism today is a natural, or should I say supernatural, one. If it were not for the Gnostic insistence that the old Testament God, (Yaweh-Jehovah/Elohim) was the same as the Demiurge (Ialdoboath in one myth) we might not have the Bible as we know it. This Gnostic challenge, not Constantine [see: http://www.thetruthaboutdavinci.com/emperor-constantine.html], caused the early church fathers to select 4 Gospels and combine them with OT texts to form the Bible. The core Christian tradition from the start accepted the old Testment God (the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob)as a good God that created a good universe. Procreation and children were good. The early Christians eschewed magic and occultism connected to ritual. Gnostics on the other hand borrowed from Greek mystical religion and Platonism, tended to involved followers in one cleansing technique after another (repeated weekly "baptisms" for example whereas for primitive Christians one dip was good enough) and relied heavily on an intuitive 'gnosis' to feel enlightened and saved.
Gnostics tended to separate from "the world" in body and mind. In a word, Gnostics were far more elitist toward neighbors than the average Christian was. The Gnostic goal was return or ascension asap.

There are many gray areas shared between traditional PLatonism and Christianity (John's Gospel borrows a type of Gnosis and Greek religion, esp in the first chapter) but the disctinction is that one is willing to work with basic reality as good in this world whereas the other claims that nothing is good enough here---we must purge normal life, purge normal science from our minds, and use ritualistic, irrational rituals (C&E, blindfolding, Tankarama)to do it.

The Gnostic impulse is glaringly evident in endtimes or doom prophecies---it reflects the psychological urge in JZ and other doom prophets to "get rid of this world." All the "Left Behind" books that purport to be "Christian" are actually a bizarre form of Gnosticism or radical dualism in disguise.

Gnosticism like New Ageism tends not to be science friendly because science relies on "this world" to prove its points.

There are sophisticated types of neo-Platonism and Gnosticism too (see Plotinus and Valentinus, for example) but RSE and the Left Behind series 'cult' are not one of them, imo.

This is why Gordon Melton so easily recognized RSE as a neo-Gnostic school in his book.

Joe

blind earthworm, thanks for posting that link.


This is the main page, and has a lot of info ! I have heard tale of A.A. being cult-like. I'm not judging it, because i have no experience to do so. This information looks to be thorough, and reminds me of EMF in some ways.

The Orange Papers

Sorry.... I should have written that you can CLICK ON the underlined link, The Orange Papers. Still working on the link situation.

Love that term TANKARAMA! It's perfect...let's copyright it before someone else does!

Discernment...

I am not nice in a forum such as this. (And I like that about me.)

It leads to further undiscernment.

You will never figure out what you are trying to reason with here.

The more you mentally ********** the more guilt is created.

Choose a way out of your turmoil and don't look back.

Everything in your rear view mirror is mind control and by now you should have a grand understanding that in the world of positive and negative the big fish eat the little fish.

Better to learn to swim faster than to think to much.

Its not my fault that the big fish aren't nice either.

Tankarama---just popped into my head. Yeah, maybe we should trademark it before Disneytha does.

Here's an article from an old Gnosis (1996) magazine that does a good job with critical analysis of the guru-disciple relationship:
http://leavingsiddhayoga.net/gnosis.htm

Say, Joe, speaking of Gordon Melton, can you please say more about the term, "apologist?" I run across it in cult literature and am not certain I fully grasp the meaning. Thanks...

re Jim Melton as "apologist":
An apologist is an advocate of a philosophy or religion who can explain it and argue for its validity and truth. Apologetics is that branch of study that uses hermeneutics with isogesis and exogesis---look it up.

In the so-called cult wars Melton and a small clique of sociologists of religion have been ardent critics of mind control theory and what they label as the "anti cult network" or ACN in their literature. The cult awareness folks, on the other hand, called that clique "cult apologists". That term and ACN are pejoratives. Melton states that the term "cult" is a pejorative and that it has lost its original meaning due to the propaganda of the ACN. The so-called ACN argues that Melton and company ignore the harm that these groups do by labelling ex-member stories as unreliable "atrocity tales". Melton et al also argue that there is no science to prove that brainwashing exists. In their worldview when I functioned as a deprogrammer, I was the lowest of the low--pure moneygrubbing, unlicensed, untrained scum. I really wasn't THAT bad.

Whenever there was a court case regarding cults you could almost guarantee that a Melton, Anson Shupe, Dick Anthony or one of a few others would appear on behalf of the cult whereas a Margaret Singer, Paul Martin, would appear for the cult victim. That's why JZ picked Melton for her case.

Ironically, I was the first "deprogrammer" to attend a conference of the Society for Scientific Study of Religion in 1994 or so. This SSSR is the group of several hundred scholars (PhDs and minsters with degrees) from which the "cult apologist" clique comes. A few of these scholars got to know me and asked me to present papers at the conference on their panel. I did that twice, once much to the dismay of Scientology whose represtantives protested my presence. Scientology and many other so-called cults or "new religious groups" as Melton calls them will camp out in the lobby during the SSSR conferences to recruit scholars to study them and to spin their group. Sometimes the cults "pay expenses."

If a new or old cult can find a scholar to legitimize them, they use it as propaganda. Most of the SSSR scholars I met are neutral and do not become activists or "apologists", neither do they advocate what I do as a critic, as it should be. But these folks do not make big bucks as teachers so it is tempting for them to be able to study a group if expenses are paid.

Hey Wolfman-

Silly me!

I wonder where I got the idea that this was a site to for ex- attendees in RSE give one another support?
Could it be the Home page of this site, Under the title, "WHAT IS 'ENLIGHTEN ME FREE' FOR? THE PURPOSE " in the 3rd paragraph, where ist says,

"Our primary purpose with this website is to provide an online support community."

Again, that would be my bad- Because I Believed something in print!

You are right though, much of my rear view mirror shows a landscape of mind control-

And I really don't mind swimming with all kinds of fish, In fact, I swim in a shark tank at work every day... this site is what I do for fun!


Oh yeah, did you know that one of the largest "fishes in the sea, the humpback whale doesn't eat it's own kind? It actually dines on krill and plankton- So I guess It's not a condition for all "big fish!"

Just for the record- although your post in which you called me a " typical ramster" was a triggor for me at first- our little bantor back and forth has brought me a few chuckles and kept me on my toes!

For what is is worth- I forgive you... After all- it is a full moon!

Hey Joe,

now after I know that I am probably an "apologist";
regarding your encounters with Scientology.

Does it mean that you are declared as an SP ("supressive person") and the persons connected with you as PotentialTroubleSources?
Did the GuardianOffice (from Scientology) involved you in some court procedure, or did they "bothered" you in some other ways?

You do not have to answer if you do not want to, but thanks if you do answer!

IO

IO: "Does it mean that you are declared as an SP ("supressive person") and the persons connected with you as PotentialTroubleSources?
Did the GuardianOffice (from Scientology) involved you in some court procedure, or did they "bothered" you in some other ways?"

All the above at one time or another. I spent a day in deposition (1995?) with their main lawyer once when they were fishing for info against the original Cult Awareness Network (which btw is now owned and run by Scientologists since 1996). I've been picketed and directly harrassed by them at conferences several times, but that has not happened in ten years. In reality I am too small of a fish---I have no money to spare, do not work for any anti-cult organization and therefore have little real power to affect them, RSE, or any 'new religion' beyond what I say and write.

joe

Thanks Joe,

for this deeply personal answer.

It is accordant to my own observations and experiences.

At least since aprox. 1982, that organisation seems to be only about "power and money".
(maybe infiltrated and wrapped by some cia-subgroup, since then!?)

But this forum has another purpose and I would like to know/share, some other time, because now it is late in Europa, about your opinions ..starting from this beginning .. way up .. to RSE and the truth definition about cult (not that kind of 100-question-cult-yes-or-no-cookbook) and mind-control.

Maybe we may get some new conclusions or recognitions, new ideas and nearing viewpoints.

Till then.. thanks again ..and good night America!

discernment.......

The Whale is not a fish. Its mammal.

Best to get a good understanding going before giving away ones life to groups such as RSE.

"Many are called, few are chosen, and those that are chosen are instructed from within".

Discernment.......
There is a force that moves within each of us.
I do believe you are a sensitive individual so you are already aware of this.
In my personal understanding what must then take place is for the individual to create a sovereign structure within oneself using this subtle force within. If one does not create the structure then one is only a "spiritual fool" without real power and then is subject to the waves of thought patterns invading their sanctum.

With this said then I suggest you work with "lines" or "webs" of structure within, using that which moves within you as the engines that create sovereign sanctum.

If you were a student at RSE this was taught to you, but it can never be thought about, it must be exacted upon within the body without mental stimulation or opinions, which are nothing more than phantom ghost without structure.

Use your caring and sensitive nature to create inner structure and when you find yourself in a world of analysis then you will know you are back in RSE mind control where all questions will be answered with another round of questions.

Personal sovereignty through inner structured contemplation is ones only way NOT to end up in another group of spiritual neophytes.

All my best to you discernment.

Wolfman.......

Holly smokes Wolfie!

You sound like a RSE house plant!

JS said, "and therefore have little real power to affect them, RSE, or any 'new religion' beyond what I say and write."

Which should never be underestimated in anyone's case.

Speaking out and writing about our experiences does have impact (as you know).

Being an S.P. is a compliment. Consider the alternative.

Thanks Joe for this profound explanation about the scientific unscientifical term „cult“ on the topic about „symbols“.

After starting.. the concept, we have to finish.
I did ask you about your encounter with Scientology, to clarify some proportional disorders, by trying to compare Scientology with RSE - in a „nutshell“;
without supposing that either this one or the other one is a „destructive group“.

I will use the letter „R“ for RSE and the letter „S“ for Scientology.

There are thousands of people involved and there are thousands of different experiences. I speak for my own experience without the intention to offend somebody else.
I did practice „S“ until 1982 and I did practice „R“ for more then 7 years.
I do know many current and former „Ramsters“ from all over the world (including lots of yelmies).

RECRUITMENT:

In „R“ there is maybe a flyer, perhaps some friend talked to you – and you go to some „Beginner“.

In „S“ you get overwhelmed in the street and the „public reg“ is putting you on your „life-ruin“. But „WE“ know how to fix it.

WE GOT YOU!

When we do speak about „R“ – that means – you may participate twice a year on some Retreat, total time less than two weeks, if you intend to remain a current student. If you do not want – it is up to YOU.

If you are on „S“-lines, you are there, fulltime!
Fulltime means fulltime! (as long as there is some breath visible on the mirror holded in front of you – for staff, because aren’t you an OperatingThetan or what?)
You do not want? Oh yes, there are DIV2-registrars
„did you sign-up for your next intensive?“ it is 2 after midnight – who cares, KSW!(keep-„s“-working)
„What is your next step on the bridge?“ – after this.
And remember.. here comes the EthicsOfficer!!!
(Your son is in the SeaOrg now! – he signed a contract for 100 million years (how many billions?))
(you would like to visit your doughter?! – she is on-staff on FLAG – she has to do MEST-work at moonlight!) (m=matter, e=energy, s=space, t=time; for example to furbish the whole first floor, including the toilets, until 4 o’clock in the morning, would be a MEST-work)

Sorry, for all the WOGs (worthy-oriental-gentlemans – who did not even try), that you do not understand the used terminology.

GETTING MONEY OUT OF THE VICTIMS!

In „R“:
As an European student there is no difference if I would participate at the BlueCollege-Retreat in Yelm or having my vacation for example in Australia or India – regarding the money I would have to spend.

In „S“:
With the whole price of the BC-Retreat for 8-9 days, you may afford perhaps 3-4 hours of some „higher-grade Auditing“.



WHAT??! DO YOU REALLY WANT TO.. L E A.. V E?

In „R“:
Here is the EXIT, feel free to leave.
I don’t want you here if you are not willing to change.
Go in the world, experience. Don’t sit here wasting your time.
(In fact I do see Ram kissing those who will not return. I don’t think it was the toothpaste why they did not return.)

In „S“:
Common NOW! Let’s go to the e-meter.
„What was your last OVERT?“
„Did I missed some WITHHOLD?“
„What is the name of the person you killed...? (or something like that)“
„Did you killed your cat?“
„Did you killed your cat?“
..
„Go to the first moment you get this evil purpose!“
Mhmm.. there is nothing...
Okay. That’s fine!
„Go to the first moment you get this evil purpose!“
„Do you understand?“
„Do you understand?“
„Do you understand?“
..Oh ..r
„Do you understand? YES or NO?“
„Do you understand?“
...

GONE! SOMEHOW?!

In „R“:
Did you see her?
Perhaps she is out.

In „S“:
They will find you in every earth-hole.
They will rumble at your doors.
They will bother all your neighbours.
They will catch you in your employment-office.

ENEMY MINE!

In „R“:
He/she is no more „frequency-specific“.
Perhaps he changes?!

In „S“:
No.. he is not just a freeloader..he is an SP!
that means .. he has all the time (he is trapped in no time)
an evil purpose!
He can’t do something else just having an evil purpose.
You can not change him.. maybe after we cleared the planet.. and having plenty of time.. to improve our technology.
Stay away from him – you will become a PotetialTroubleSource (driving rollercoaster) by yourself – go to the EthicsOfficer before she comes to you.
You may remove him .. maybe..if he is in your way.. but just stay away from him.


SUMMARIZE:

According to my own experiences, many familiar relationships in „R“ were similar as before „R“, and many even improved.
According to statements in this forum there are some other experiences.

(Yes, there have been RedGuards, regarding my own experience, who did not allowed you to go „pipi“ during some „field-work“ – but did they destroyed your life?)

This is a „nut-shell“ regarding „destructive-groups“, takes a lot of time and has nothing to do with the teachings themselves, what is much more important, or the integrity of LRH or JZ.
This should help to quit that kind of superficial scratching the surface without knowing the contents.

Again I do respect other experiences!
And I do not want to judge those other experiences.

excuse me.yes an american prissoncamp was better than a nazi deathcamp.but they r both wrong.yes i saw people get manhandelt on the ranch.yes there shows up a redguard if you dont do exactly whats said.yes there are destroid lives.they might not speak up because of social preasure.or because they dont wanna touch it anymore.however the programing of beeing a failier if you leave school sits deep.thats when people realy dig their positive expiriences out.to show at least how evolved they left.the sad thing is jzr never cets called on her ****t as long as there r people who might get some crumps of her cake.

You are excused.. as anybody else who follows you!
Feel free.. it is your forum and your voice.

No RedGuard threatening you!

IO...

I am interested to hear what Joe’s response is to your questions and statements..
But..
Your post does read as a "back door defense" of RSE by comparing it with another …"Cult".

And to fall for the “ seeing "Ramtha" kissing those who will not return....
is naive to the workings of Judith’s showbiz fantasy world…

IO..
Do you believe in the existence of "The Ram" and practice the teachings?

David.

David..

the statements or some questions in my post are mostly self-related.

The post was not meant as a "back door defense" of RSE, but more as a "front door defense" against the misuse of terms like "destructive groups", "cult" or
"brainwashing".

The statement about.. Ramtha kissing - should be a joke.. but okay you are perhaps right, a bad joke - it is naive.

If I do believe in the existence of "The Ram"?
Great question..
I do believe that almost everyone who did attend RSE for several years.. did believe in the existence of "The Ram".
But just believing is not knowing.
I do not know if there is a "Ram", according to my own definition of that entity we may name "Ram".

If I do practice the teachings???
..not sure if I did understand your meaning.
But.. I would say that I am one of those lazy students - I am not practicing diligently.
I do practice those things, I experienced by myself as functioning, those who work out according to my own observation.
For example I do practice focus!

IO: Interesting rundown comparison of Co$ and R$E.

A few observations. All alleged brainwashing and thought reform or whatever you want to call it harks back to ancient military training techniques as well as cult (in the true sense of the word) intitiation rituals. If you want to be part of our tribe (army), you have to be intitiated to prove you are not only worthy but also that you understand "us" and will be loyal to "our" culture.

Co$ (S) is structured more militaristically than R$E (R). S even has faux sailor suits! S has a better machine to influence larger numbers because its goal is a kind of spiritual conquest of the universe--that is why Sea Org-ees (got to be careful with that word ) sign on for "5 billion years" to serve S. The primary difference here is in the leaders. Hubbard was quite the megalomaniac---Hubbard was the master who served no greater being. The greatest being in S as you mentioned is the OT or totally Operating Thetan, a god soul without limitations. The promise in S is specific--follow our "bridge to total freedom" and you too will become an OT---even if it takes 5 billion years!!!!
R on the other hand is led by a less focused megalomaniac, imo, because she is dis-integrated into JZ and a god R that is completely tethered to her consciousness. JZ lives in a compromised world as a result on the one hand claiming "unlimitedness" through R but unable to prove her claims. Hubbard never could prove that an OT was possible but he could convince some folks that he was on the way there AND ahead of everyone else--even if he was a chain smoker and used uppers and downers and alcohol!

Both groups go for the money (what business doesn't!?) but I see R as much less ambitious organizationally. R is not interested in the big numbers because that would mean having to delegate more responsibility and therefore establish an information network and control more "trust bonds" with staff. Perhaps JZ does not have that much personal power or energy or need. My old cult under Eliz Prophet was much better at this type of organization than R but not nearly as good at it as Co$.
S is much better at sustaining a chain of command and an industry whereas R's "chain" seems much looser, more like a motley gang than a militia.
That's it for now.......

That comparison that IO made with "S" and "R" made me think that someday LARSE folks might use this site as a model for decribing JZ/R:
http://www.ronthenut.org/
The "clearing house" for factual information about the raving, lying, lunatic sociopath who fabricated Scientology® and Dianetics®.

There is a whole industry of ex-Co$, many books, etc, but the OT machine keeps on cranking anyway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Ron_Hubbard

joe

Hey Joe..

thanks for your communication.

Now I do think that you hit the nail on the top, with your last definition about "cult" - gratulations.

quoting you:
..it harks back to ancient military training techniques as well as cult (in the true sense of the word) intitiation rituals. If you want to be part of our tribe (army), you have to be intitiated to prove you are not only worthy but also that you understand "us" and will be loyal to "our" culture.


Great Joe! This is a complete different meaning.
You ..have to be initiated first, ..have to be worthy, ..have to understand "our" cult.
THEN you own the right to use the name cult.

Joe, you did learn your lessons well regarding this,
you are allowed to use the word "cult" in this meaning! (joking!)

Yes.. the so called "S"-organisation has to deal all their time with governments, secret-services, psychiatric associations, pharmaceutical industry, cult-deprogrammers and so on.
They got many enemies.
They learn fast.
They got a tough structure.
They did not act as a prey.
So they used similar "mind-technologies" ..and get even better than the enemies.

In a "nutshell"..
if somebody has been "trained" in "S", just a few years, if he survided.. (mental healthy ..and financially), learned how to think and observe by himself.. then he does understand a lot regarding mind-control, society structures, human behaviour etc.

But if somebody ..the last 20 years in his lifetime.. was just believing you that this is a "cult".. he would have kept this label.. and never realy learned or understand anything regarding those subjects.

And the universities today, regarding psychology, philosophy ..are not good enough to fill this gap.


Your shared viewpoint regarding "R" - it is okay.
"Motley gang".. great Joe!
..BUT if this is not a "dangerous military structured" organisation ..just a "motley gang" ..then we have to ask ourself some question.


How does it come that, without those controlling structures, "R" is able to bind, control thousand of people for tens of years?
Are the "teachings", "trainings" so powerful that you don't even need those "destructive-cult-specific-kind-of-structures"?
How does it come, that group-members just need to take one or two retreats during a whole year.. and keep coming back, by their own free "programmed" will?
And other "cults" would need to control a lot .. to keep the members in their group?

Joe.. a small gift (recognition)
just for you from ..man.. to man..

Have a great time!

In io's comparison of R and S one thing not mentioned is mass hypnosis. That is a factor in determining whether a group is a destructive cult.

io said, "When we do speak about „R“ – that means – you may participate twice a year on some Retreat, total time less than two weeks, if you intend to remain a current student. If you do not want – it is up to YOU."

This, and other statement you made in your posts leave out some information that is part of the puzzle.

For one example: It is not so plain as a student having the option of attending two MANDATORY events per year, in order to remain current in their group.

The more complete picture is this:

1) Students are told by the teacher, who claims to be Ramtha, that their dedication and sincerity to the teachings is seriously questioned, at least, if students only attend twice a year. "He" actually has addressed students who attend only twice a year, many times along this line and quite severely at time. They have been ridiculed in front of the entire audience.

One could fairly question just how "optional" attending two events a year is, when you are told you are not being given all of the information others are being given, and you are inferior for minimal attendance.

One could also question the ability of the teacher if he can't seem to get his teachings across in the two events that he set forth as mandatory per year.

Enough said for now.

You ask: "How does it come that, without those controlling structures, "R" is able to bind, control thousand of people for tens of years?
Are the "teachings", "trainings" so powerful that you don't even need those "destructive-cult-specific-kind-of-structures"?
How does it come, that group-members just need to take one or two retreats during a whole year.. and keep coming back, by their own free "programmed" will?
And other "cults" would need to control a lot .. to keep the members in their group?"

Perhaps you missed the obvious: The simple answer is it is a matter of "style". If you are a gun nut you might end up in a militia cult. If you are a higher consciousness junkie you might end up in a meditation or yoga cult. If you crave sex---well, you get the idea!
No one joins a cult, no cult leader controls members without compliance. Mind control does not function through telepathy or some mysterious force.
People join attractively packaged ideas and activities that make them feel more important or 'enlightened." Cults, good and bad, form when a leader and followers engage in a "dance" of ideas. Often the leader gets caught up in forces that he or she did not imagine in the beginning. JZ was just a living room channeler in the beginning around 1979-1980. It could have ended there as it does for 90% of channelers of gods, spooks, and dead people. When power and feeling special become addictive to both parties, the leader devises ways to not only continue wielding power but also responds to the devotee's need for the leader to devise ways to sustain it. The ACT or staged reality becomes more and more elaborate as it feeds off the exposed needs of the followers.

The leader taps the devotee's narcissistic grandiosity---"I am a serious seeker who only wants THE BEST, and now I (that allseeing EYE within) have seen it and will follow IT. I had a parr-full experience, therefore this must be the real deal. MY experience is the arbiter of REALITY."

Harmful cults come in all shapes and sizes and almost all of them reflect the needs of a particular leader. Some leaders only want a household of devotees whereas others shoot for the universe. In effect, the harm is the same and is often worse in the smaller groups wherein the leader can micromanage the group. Note battered wife syndrome.

But the harm is only truly recognised and felt when the devotee discovers deep reasons to defect. At that stage thoughts like "What have I done?; Is any of this real?; If I leave now I will have lost everything I invested---omygod, this is painful!!!! What if I'm wrong????"

It may be more difficult to leave S physically once you are a SeaOrg member but the psychological hold is the same once a devotee makes a soul contract with any totalist cause, group or leader whether they participate in person daily, annually or hardly at all. Recall that after WW2 some Japanese soldiers were found still "fighting" for the cause many years after the war ended. They were hiding in the hills of remote islands waiting for commands.
Joe

interesting, thanks io and joe

Joe..

good answers you have.. nothing to add!

Just..
I would relate your answers to the cult inside the cult ..and to the cult outside the cult.
I would say your answer do fit to the whole, daily life.
You relayed to the WW2,
to "people join attractively packaged ideas "
to "the leader taps the devotee's narcissistic grandiosity"..
Good observation.
There are wars, leaders, narcissistic people inside and outside.

The questions:
"What have I done?; Is any of this real?; If I leave now I will have lost everything I invested---omygod, this is painful!!!! What if I'm wrong????"

This questions are for everyone, can be asked by some political leader, by some business-man in midlife-crisis, by some scholar after years of misleading studies.. and even by a cult-deprogrammer.

THX IO

even more interesting.....good morning america and good night europe ( personal,not political statement)Sleep]

IO,
Your mind control skill is impressive. Have you trained under anyone we know?

IO writes, "...nothing to add." And then follows it with something to add.

"...nothing to add" tells the brain to stop listening (remember Derren Brown?) and then IO inserts the post hypnotic suggestion at the very end.

"What if the cult deprogrammer is wrong?"

Nice try, IO. Joe has the greatest insight into the RSE racket so if you can discredit him you will have accomplished something?

IO wrote, "In „R“ there is maybe a flyer, perhaps some friend talked to you – and you go to some „Beginner“."

Really ?

Maybe a FLYER ? MAYBE ?
How about an entire packet of information include glossy colored pamphlets, an introductory (hook) audio cassette, and assorted "statistical" info in the pamphlet, too. Along with a brief description of what supernatural things one will learn at a Beginner's Event.
Now, add to that, the possible scenario of family or friends pressuring you to go, go, go, because it's soooo awesome you have no idea what you are missing, and you'll gain enlightenment. Yet, those that do the proselytizing, can't perform the feats themselves.

I am curious about why you are so seemingly biased in your projection of RSE as you contrast it to a much harsher view of Scientology ? It would appear that you are an RSE apologist !

Hmmmmm....

2. "EVERYTHING IS MIND CONTROL."
Mind control is everywhere, the reasoning goes -- in psychotherapy, advertising, education, and the military, for example -- so it must be acceptable. When we generalize and say that everything is mind control, all distinctions are lost. No insight is gained. A more productive model is to think in terms of a continuum of influence: at one end, respectful, ethical, growth-enhancing influence that recognizes the value of individuality, human rights, and creativity; at the other end, conformity, dependency, and slavery, where the value lies in the leader and the group.
Everything is not mind control, although destructive mind control can be used by almost any institution or person. Institutions and systematic social influence programs should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Some are positive; some are benign; some are hurtful. While influence processes exist in all areas of human endeavor, cult mind control is a distinct phenomenon found at the destructive extreme of the continuum.

Excerpted from: http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/books/rtb4.htm

Watcha..

my post was about distinctions and correct proportions.

Not about everything is mind-control!
That means you have to question.. even at this forum.

And again, there are different experiences!

EWO..

there was no intention to discredit Joe.
Rather the contrary, he was honest, profund and he had great answers.
For example he said:
"..no cult leader controls members without compliance".
A splendid answer - I was impressed!

And using this foreign language in a way you termed "mind-control-skills"..
If you do not agree entirely with the issues on this forum.. you can not survive, if you don't use mid-control.
There are lots of examples in past posts regarding this.. (remember Coco, Onehandontheelephant and so on..)

I never was a fanatical follower, not in communist country, not in "S", not in "R", not in the daily life encounters and not in this forum.

io said, "If you do not agree entirely with the issues on this forum.. you can not survive, if you don't use mid-control.
There are lots of examples in past posts regarding this.. (remember Coco, Onehandontheelephant and so on..)"

io, that's an excuse on your part, I would say. It's interesting that a few people can cry that they must "agree entirely" when they are the ones who are reactive when THEY are not agreed with, entirely. Some of us are not allowed to point things out and question, but others are ?

Also, for your information, when someone appears to be posting as several people, don't be deceived. There are folks posting on here (not myself) under multiple identities. Some people have conflicts of interest who post here, or used to, based on considerations in their own lives. That may be reflected on here, but it's misleading due to unspoken factors. Be that as it may ....

Maybe the fact is that your post came across a certain way, and it was seen that way by a number of people who pointed it out to you to consider.

Some folks from this forum were in contact with Coco, and that person ADMITTED LYING on here. As for OneHand, there were MANY complaints about her honing in on one aspect of an article, dismissing the rest, and not honoring what the intent of posting the article was for. Nevertheless, many of "us" supported some of what she said, and the 'tude continued on. We could have deleted that entire thread, but we didn't.

So, you may want to, or need to, believe that posters here must agree with some perceived consensus, but it's a falsehood. Those who are behind this website don't always agree with each other, so we have to laugh at this cop-out accusation when it rears its head. But, we DO know how to work together.

Best to you, io.

Whatcha

P.S. Let's get BACK ON TOPIC - this thread was begun as The Annunaki.

"The Annunaki scenario according to Sitchin certainly would be a great miniseries. It's startling when you look at the old testament from the different perspective."

The writer ?? suggests that a "different perspective" is enough. My old cult CUT was into Sitchin's books to reinforce the ideas of an alien-produced slave race and "mechanization man" on earth. Guess who could identify which was which? You guessed it...ONLY the leader.

"A great miniseries"? Yeah, like Zena, the Princess Warrior..........

Z Sitchin is not merely a "different persepective". He's full of [Simplistically Horrible Insight Tautologies]

You can look over this site as an example of criticism: http://skepdic.com/essays/sitchin.htm
".....several well-published, respected archeologists familiar with this period have called Sitchin a fool and an idiot (but in less polite terms). While he's well-read, he seems to live in his own little world when it comes to translation of ancient texts. He also takes certain liberties in his translations and interpretations ...."

"Different perspectives" range in quality. Just being different in cult matters is not going to cut it with me any more---do your homework.

Joe

io,

my post about "2. EVERYTHING IS MIND CONTROL" was in reply to your comment that it is everywhere. I have, myself, posted that in various forms, it is everywhere.

But specific to the topic of CULTS (or similar type groups), the post was presenting that to generalize the topic of mind control, from the arena of cults, to the general public/society at large, is to miss the point of what goes in in persuasive coercion groups/sects/cults.

That not only reflected a viewpoint that I myself had to consider, but I suggested that you, too (as well as many/most of us here, perhaps) may also want to consider.

In some regard, my opinion is that it is apples and oranges to compare "cults" in terms of HOW they implement mind control tactics. The question, in my mind anyway, is whether or not they do.

My opinion is that at RSE, they do implement such tactics. It isn't a physical constraint for the most part, ALTHOUGH, I would not rule that out as anyone who tries to leave an event prematurely, does risk, and has experienced, negative fallout as a result in a number of cases. Some of which have been posted about on this forum. But, the hook is a PSYCHOLOGICAL and/or emotional hook. That sure enslaves the physical body, too.

As Janja Lillich wrote, (and I am paraphrasing), it is common for group members to physically leave a group 1 - 2 years after they see the end of the tunnel. I know for myself, that was true about leaving RSE. 12 - 24 months before I left, I knew it was over, but I vacillated. 0 - 12 months before I left, I KNEW it was over, and I started to attend less events, and participate less, and just pull back my own "power", so to speak, and then I looked "Ramtha" right in the eye as "he" spoke something to me and "telepathically" said, "I'm finished here and I'm not coming back." Whether or not that "message" was received, is irrelevant. It was MY process.

The emotional turmoil that followed for me, in the subsequent months, was difficult. However, I had a fantastic support system put in place by that time, so despite the difficulty, the odds were in my favor to be supported as I needed/wanted. Plus, I took the responsibility for making contacts outside RSE, with people who had direct and indirect experiences and were willing to talk about them. I learned a lot from former staff/students - quite an eyeopener.

I've been "out" for a year and half and I am very happy, content, WISER, but...not silent. FOR MYSELF, it would be morally corrupt to be silent about what I know. I know I am far from alone with that sentiment.

Just sharing....

Here is a posted conversation about the Annunaki. It isn’t any level of scholarly review in any way, but I would also not discredit it. This author has obviously had some experiences with the New Age Movement and delved deeper. Just more food for thought.

Some of the comments that piqued my interest, included references to Seth, I AM, Ramtha and EC Prophetless, which is why I am including this.

http://educate-yourself.org/lte/amitakhsethramtha11oct06.shtml

On a related, but off-topic on a more generalized form of mind control, is this other area of the website, which I am not endorsing, but may be of interest to some readers: Mind Control http://educate-yourself.org/mc/

Joe,

thanks for that link about Sitchin.
I will study the link.. according to my time.
And of course I do my homeworks ..thanks for reminding me.

Perhaps, now we rise above that kind of "new-age ui-gui..thing";
and the message gets more important than the from society-ruler-groups-attributed-authority of the messanger.

Watcha..

thanks for sharing.

IO

we seem to have three strains on this thread going
1) the Annunaki
2) definitions of "cults"
3) healing

Discernmentnow said:
What can those tapes provide to you? Do you still believe in the info R gave? Is there a time period in which you believe the info was valid and a time in which you believe it stopped being valid?

How do you determine what to keep and what you let go of?


Cowboy said:
So far I have been running 2 parallel non-intersecting realities. One is a complete blank. No beliefs, no dogma, no nothing. Sounds like it might be hard to do but after the shock of RSE it isn't.
In the other reality, I am looking at the world through new eyes. Baptism by fire best describes the current state.

I am totally alligned with Cowboy here.
And...DN.
I have found absolutely no use for listening to past tapes.
And, before last week, I had the utmost regard for my experiences in the tank until I walked into some 8' panel walls
in a construction zone and I went about ape____.
And since candle work is not copyrighted but an ancient practice...I think I would be open to that, but just not yet.
Everything else, down the tubes.
I listened once to a to past tapes-I could barely stomach it....just a bunch of rhetoric and psychobabble.

thank you for for some very useful info

information?ask ramthters what they realy learned for example from an evening.i dare everybody to find someone which can sumerize clearly the knowlege[not the propaganda,or views]longer than 10 min.this is my own expierience:when i came from an event i feelt cocy because i thought i knew something the poor villager dont know.i met educated peopel who showed me thats common knowledge in sientific circles with a littel twist or a worked out theory.the other effect which baffeld me was that i draw blancs when i get asked to explain.since the edjucationmethods are regarded so hihgly i wonderd about this and thought i might be a dumsh.....but i found this effect in nearly everyone i talked to.when you lissen to tapes you will find that either statments get explained very poorly[not for a follower but a critical thinker that might be: the you dont get it]or the real information is so short that you put it in one sentence and ask yourself why you paid 50 bucks for it and spend a whole evening of your time.yes ramtha was not only as a chanell a dissapointment also as a teacher.there might be a method to seperate shugar from sand[like solute the mix in water.let the sand settel and make some syrup]but i havent found it yet so its a real swamp to me.thats why i have difficulties with nearly all information[politics conspirecies aliens .....]when i heard jz the last time i realized how hypnotic here talk is with totallak of real information.

"Drawing a blank" is the mind dissociating. At that point she inserts her post hypnotic suggestion (which you don't recall - you are drawing a blank!)

so THEN what shall we do, if we are aware of this?

THEN I would suggest:

1. Be joyful and happy.
2. Live your life to its fullest.
3. Continue learning and evolving.

It is a great gift to have had the opportunity to experience at least one other cult outside of the main cult termed HSP (Hypocritical-Society-Programm).

How else could you be aware of the main cult?
Which cult is better? RSE or HSP? Neither!

Make your own cult!

IMHO IO

I meant, we do live in a society where football-stars and hollywood-stars earn much more reputation and much.. much.. more money than for example ...
Joe.
For what?!?

IO

"so THEN what shall we do if we are aware of this?"

Here are some suggestions:

As soon as you realize that you are drawing a blank, move your body. This pulls your mind back into your body and the present moment. Then ask yourself, "What am I doing? Where is my mind?" Say these words out loud if you can. Force your consciousness into the present moment. Then check your impulses - is the next thing you were about to do something that you really want to do? Check it out, where did the impulse come from? Why do you think that you want to do it? Try not doing it and monitor the reaction. Self awareness and vigilance will keep you in the present moment.

I've been thinking about the Ramtha teaching, "Be happy." The teaching as I heard it was, "Be happy no matter what." "Force yourself to feel happy - it doesn't matter what is occurring in your reality." I was thinkning about how contrived that is. It is a useful mechanism for controlling people. The mandate is to be happy which means no complaining, no questioning. Just do what Ramtha says, be happy.

Especially upon reflection, I would agree that those "soundbyte" type of comments like, "Be happy!" are controlling. It is also marginalizing anything and anyone who may have questions, or any other issue. Not only on a personal level, but with the teachings. Why? Because of the unavailability of the teacher. Students frequently receive condescending responses from staff, or worse.

Long term students may have doubts or questions, but the only thing one is able to get up and talk about, is any perceived achievement they had with a discipline. Even then, it is only upon request.

New students - I have heard it said many times by new students that they are rushed through some ten minute explanation of "how to do such and such discipline". Then they are told to just do it. Well, that's not good enough for a number of them because they feel that they don't understand what to do or why. How effective is that going to be ? I've seen that happen many times. The staff just marginalizes those who dare to question. This has been addressed on this forum, too, by folks who have experienced it. I have personally witnessed it happening to others.

Many, many years ago, at Beginner events, the teachings then would go on and on and on for a few topics. Then, in more recent times, what took years to learn is often condensed into very small periods of time, and yet the student is expected to "get it". I've even heard it said to them that they can just do it, and because others did it before them, the trail has been made (in the unseen), so they can tap it from there.

So, BE HAPPY !

$$$$$$$$$$

Who cares if the students know what they are doing ? Don't ask. Just DO IT.

dont ask just pai.

hi io.thanks fo excusing me.and i dont owe this webside.and i prefer compaionshipp on my way more than getting followed.i admitt i still fall for rse trigers like be happy or evolve.they still give me a push towards defence and agression.especialy if someone states about the range: cult but harmless.i tried to cope with aplying this attitude in my first year of not going there.it dident work for me.i know i have to learn tolerance towards people which still wanna go to theire church [rse] and transmute and evolve and be extraordinary.or choose the good from the bad.but until i walk away from this battel i have in myself i keep my shield up and my sword sharp.

Perhaps we have been "destructive members" in different cults.

I remember the definition about..
joy is a natural state of being, detached from emotions..
or the question "what is worth worrying about?"..
and nothing about "forced 'un'happiness".

Regarding.. "Just DO IT!" (Cocca-Colla).. don't ask? (in a "nutshell")
I did understand this in context as.. don't fickle around in past emotions, repeating those.. but experience it.. embrace it.. own it as wisdom.

For example..
If you feel bitterness, disappointment, hate ..against "R",
don't fickle around by blaming continually, searching new reasons to feed those emotions.. for years.
But take it to the surface, confront it, fokus on "I did overcome this..", live it, embrace it, experience it, own it, the emotion becomes wisdom, release it.. and you are changed.

It is not that "R" gets through with it, or about wrong or right, but it is about you and your health, your time and your life.

I am not an dis-appointed teacher, so please forgive my unprofessional attempt.

IMHO IO

Hi io,

(Here we go, off topic again )

Perhaps some people do feel they have been destructive members in cults. I know I don't.

Yes, I also remember the statement by R that joy is a natural state of being. I can say that NOW, in my life, I have gotten to that place. I am happy in my life, no thanks to RSE. But, despite RSE. I made my choices about PRIORITIES in my life and what had meaning and value to me. The things Other Than that, I let go. This website has value to me. Not because I "need" it. I don't. I could walk away from it, never look back, and be fine. I CHOOSE to participate on this website because it is of value to me, knowing I am helping others who find this site valuable to them. To me, that is worth some of my time. Of course, this is different for each of us, as we value different things.

Yes, I also remember R asking "What is worth worrying about?" Of course, every person is going to have their own answer to that question, also. Does the question mean we should worry about nothing ? Who is to say, but ourselves, since it is all subjective, anyway ? In my opinion, those are very superficial comments and questions for R to make. I don't believe I need that type of a teacher to ask me questions, or make comments to me, that I can't do on my own.

As for "just do it" - again, it depends on a given situation. I mentioned in my post that things where one could apply "just do it", could be of a personal nature, or of a nature related to school disciplines. I think that is very important in the overall equation (that's my two cents about it). Because "just do it" simply doesn't fit the mold in all situations in life. That is, in part, what I am referring to, when I say that for R to make those generalized statements, it is a superficial approach to life. I also think that there were many times during my tenure there, where the students were pigeonholed in that way. To think that such comments can be made, and that all students (ALL) can be pigeonholed into living accordingly, is shallow. People are more complex and unique in their being, that to have such generalities spoken to them.

We already know that if we're confronted with a life challenge, we can garner our courage, move through it, and move forward. I also disagree with "leave your past behind", which as you know, was/is another comment frequently spoken to students. I have no desire to leave my past behind. I want to remember my experiences, both good, bad and in between. I want to remember it all, so I have it as a reference point for my future. So I know what to repeat because it has value to me, and what not to, and when to just try something new. That does not mean I have to wallow in it. Though, some people always will carry their baggage with them, throughout their lives, no matter WHAT anyone says to them.

io said, "For example..
If you feel bitterness, disappointment, hate ..against "R",
don't fickle around by blaming continually, searching new reasons to feed those emotions.. for years.
But take it to the surface, confront it, fokus on "I did overcome this..", live it, embrace it, experience it, own it, the emotion becomes wisdom, release it.. and you are changed."

Again, this is individual. Some former students, may be the type of person, for their own reasons, to harbor bitterness. Who am I to judge them or say how they should act/react ? I didn't experience what they did. I know that I don't harbor hatred toward R. I have my opinion about "him". I have taken the good/bad/mixed experiences I've had at RSE and worked through most of them. I'm confident about that. However, one of the choices I made, is that I don't want to be silent about it, either. I've seen that going on for years. There is a definite "social consciousness" within the school/students/teachings. "Ramtha" has even addressed it. I don't believe a number of them are as open minded as they'd like to believe they are. Nor am I saying that I am 100% open minded.

io also said, "It is not that "R" gets through with it, or about wrong or right, but it is about you and your health, your time and your life."

I agree with this. Also, as I said - it's a personal choice. For some people, for example, it may not be "healthy" for them to participate on this forum. It may stir things up in them that aren't good for them. But, that again is so personal. I find POSITIVE value in being here. I know full well that there will be people who disagree with what this website is all about, and who may have very negative feelings about it. I knew that before it went onto the internet. But, I don't share that viewpoint. I think this website is wonderful, and I know lots of others share that viewpoint. It is for those people, that it exists.

I think your posts, my posts, and the others here, too, exemplify the diversity of viewpoints that we all can have. That's a good thing, in my opinion.

Hi watchamacallit,

wonderful post!
It is greatness to share different perspectives and still respect those... You are!

But.. however.. I have to DISCREDIT.. myself as
IO!

Because I do run the same 'anti'programms.. and 'anti'perceptions ..as you do.

Smilies to everyone!