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If you're a (non-student) spouse/partner/child of a student, how do you cope? I am married to an on-agan, off-again student, and I'm wondering how others in my position deal with it?
My husband has been involved with the school since 1997, and we've been married since '98. At first, it seemed to me like RSE was just an intellectual exercise for him, much like reading Deepak Chopra, Ram Dass, Marianne Williamson, etc., but as time went on, he became much more involved in it. We actually moved 2600 miles to Yelm 3 years ago so he could be closer to the school. I have never been, nor ever will be, a student, although I did attend an introductory weekend in Thunder Bay, ON, 4 years ago, and also attended the Ramtha "free" night at Seattle Center when "What the bleep" came out in '04, both at my husband's request.
As far as I can tell, my husband is okay with the fact that RSE is not my dig. I will give him credit, he doesn't seem as prone to the mind control as some of the other students I've met, he's pretty good at deciphering which information from Ramtha is total bs, and he doesn't talk "down" to me like a lot of other Ramsters do, but still...
Is there anyone else out there who has experienced this? And how have you dealt with the lonliness that accompanies a person who's on the outside looking in?
Hi Cherry Blossom, I am in a similar position and have posted here previously (see my thread - would you have listened). I started a relationship 2 years ago with a wonderful man who has been part of RSE for nearly 20 years, but does not frequently attend the school. From my point of view it's a cult and JZ is a fraud and I would love nothing more than for him to realise it. However I have to be patient, I have received some great advise from people on this forum, and have come to the realisation that I should stop fighting it and arguing against it and accept it as my partner's belief system. In the meantime I fill his life with non-RSE stuff, slowly introduce him to information that may generate some questions on RSE. And try desperately not to roll my eyes or get angry if JZ or Ramtha are mentioned. Email me anytime if you want to chat sounds like we are in the same boat.
Cherry Blossom Girl:
I don't know if you read my post on the
Prospective Students...read these experiences" post....
but I am Tree.
And I was most concerned about my son, who is now 20. He was raised with RSE since the git go.
After having him watch me through the last several months dis-engage from me for a bit because of what was coming out
in the wash, so to speak, in regards to my 18 years in the school, he is now back in touch like we used to be.
And I asked him the other day,How he deals with his other parent, who is HIGHLY involved with the school...she is in the "inner circle" so to speak.
He has one parent totally in, one parent totally out ( and still in the aftermath recovery process).
Fortunately, I raised him with analytical thinking skills and discernment.
And what Joe SZ told me, is that kids that are raised in cult environments, figure it out way before the parents do.
So I asked my son, how do you deal with her?
He said, he just lets her talk her crap about "C+E=R" and that he feels one day, she might "see" and and has compassion for her when she finally realizes (but , which is not likely , even if the channel dies in this lifetime...many like Greg and her will carry on the legacy of fraud)
that this whole this is a charade.
I think teenagers cope better.
I, for one, know that nearly all of the teenagers, young 20 years olds, who have parents still in the school, just allow their parents their dig, and know that one day, the light will come on.
This is my first post to the site. I am an insider looking into RSE with great interest. Your questions regarding your husbands interactions with the school are very worth while. What I find interesting is the line: "I will give him credit, he doesn't seem as prone to the mind control as some of the other students I've met, he's pretty good at deciphering which information from Ramtha is total bs, and he doesn't talk "down" to me like a lot of other Ramsters do, but still..."
Break it all down and I think you can see some direction of thought.
1. He doesnt seem prone to mind control: I can almost assure you that the teachings and orations from the school do in fact change the minds processing.
2. Hes pretty good at deciphering the BS. Its all BS nothing that is taught at the school has function outside the bounds of the teachings.
3. He doesnt talk down to you like the other ramsters. If your not part of the fold you will never be accepted from the outside and as he "evolves into a super being" the space between you and he will become more distant.
This has been my experience with a member of RSE and is solely my opinion of your posting. On that note, I will leave you with a question and support. Did you meet your husband before enterance into RSE? What was his demeanor and guide to life then? I did not know my friend before enterence into RSE but what I was hearing from the heart about life, experiences, and expectations did not fall in line with the person I would talk to after an event or meetings with fellow RSE memebers. I continued to listen and exchange ideas until "the day of desist". This person came to realize that what the world really has to offer does not hinge on the end of world prophecies nor recreating the mind to become a god. We are all human, with fault, concerns, and insecurities. RSE does not fix or erase these natures just plays on them to keep students in the mix. Keep talking with your husband and listen intently on what he is truly saying. There is truth to his experiences they are just hazed by deception.
Hello Cherry Blossom Girl,
You are in a difficult position because you will always be on the outside looking in - it is never going to change.
Are you clear on what the attraction is for your husband at RSE? The reason I ask is that if he started in 1997 that was shortly before the "Truth Teachings" started and they were not pretty. Pure raunch. It is surprising to learn that someone who started then would still be around. What is the draw for him?
" Keep talking with your husband and listen intently on what he is truly saying. There is truth to his experiences they are just hazed by deception."
I could not have said it better myself...
Thank you all for responding. It's good to know that this forum exists, so that those of us "on the outside" can have a bit more clarity and understanding.
The experience that I've had with him vis a vis the whole Ramtha thing: I met him after he went to his first Beginner's, but before he got super involved. You see, at that time, most everyone I know was into some kind of "spiritual enlightenemnt", so it didn't seem to be any wierder than anything else I'd heard from other people. He really got involved about a year after we married, but since we were living on the East Coast, it was difficult (and very expensive) for him to get out here all the time to attend events.
I did notice some changes, but they became more pronounced after we moved here, and we were surrounded by Ramsters all the time. We've had many arguments and discussions about the validity/plausibility/etc of the teachings, and my disbelief at the exorbitant prices RSE charges for events. I know some people who've spent more on that school in five years than I spent on my entire college education! My husband actually has come back to himself within the past year or so, so I am relieved. But we're still out here (which I'm not too crazy about), we're still friendly with people who are curent, and some of the stuff they say is just way... out... there.
I guess I posed this question mostly because I was wondering if anyone else who's moved to Yelm for a family memeber's "journey" has experienced some of the things I've experienced. I may sound like I'm generalizing here, but it seems to me that many (but not all, by any means) of the Ramsters I've encountered in the Yelm area are not very friendly or that accepting of others, which so far has been the most surprising thing to me. I always thought that an aspect of spiritual enlightenment was that you allow others to be, and respect them for their journey, regardless of if it is similar to yours or not.
Another thing that I think is a bit strange is the whole concept of giving to get, not giving simply to give. For example, inviting someone over to dinner and expecting them to bring a food dish. How does extorting a food toll from your guest show that you are abundantly wealthy? Obviously, I'm not a student, so I don't know the etiquette of the school. I want to point out that my hubby's not like this; he's still retained enough of his upbringing to be generous and giving to people of his time and energy; it's just that a lot of students I've encountered are this way. Are there a lot of people in the school who are shysters that take advantage of others?
I try to be respectful of his beliefs; after all, I want people to be respectful of mine. Sometimes it is very difficult, as some of the stuff I hear from him and our friends is silly - Twinkies are good for you! (Maybe the chemicals will prolong your life, but all that sugar is bound to give you diabetes, so your longer life will basically suck). I realized a long time ago that there is absolutely nothing I can do to make him leave the school, and that the harder I rally against it, the more he sticks to his guns. So I (almost never) don't argue about it anymore, because it doesn't go anywhere.
My understanding of his interest goes like this: He likes the concepts of creating your own reality and the science that is involved in understanding the brain, he likes practicing the cards and some of the other disciplines. He also likes to be able to see the guest speakers, ie Robert Kennedy and John Perkins(?)- the guy who wrote the Economic Hitman book. There are things I know he doesn't like about the school, mostly the social bs, the doomsday folks (Chicken Littles), and how many of the people wrongly interpret Ramtha's teachings (ie, they hear what they want to hear, not what actually is). If there is anything else he is/is not into, I don't know.
"Creating your reality" has been around longer than JZ has been alive.
And there is no scientific proof in regards to Quantum Mechanics in the mix to create your reality.
All of the disciplines have been around in other forms WAYYYY before RSE ever
I have been shown all the above within the last 6 weeks with PROVABLE data.
There is hope for immersed students.
I truly hope your marriage weathers this.
I just want to share today that right now in my life here in the Yelm area..and I left the school 13 years ago.....I am courting more than one business and social relations with current students whom I have known since 1990. They know I left, I know they are still in. Since I have no intimate realtions with the handfull of them, and no vested interest in thier overall lifestyle, I find it refreshing that
I can be "my powerfull God self" around them and just accept them for who they are and how they relate to me, In This Real World. We dont need to get into Ramtha debates, and neither of us needs to prove or defend our positions. I admit I do use RSE jargon when the words suit the moment, like, "Oh, I know he will understand me if I say it this way or that"...and I admit I weave in and out of seeming to allign with "the teachings", becasue as Tree mentions, they have been around a long time, and also there are other "teachings" [including my own original mind set, duh], that go on like this, , and so, I just try to keep all relations universally able to communicate "in a good way".
Now, dont think Im not aware that when I do business with current students, Im being myself in a way that is sending them a signal that they too, can live just fine without going to RSE, if they actually want to.
I had a good friend who died of cancer, which she refused to treat [as she was afraid, and preferred to wait for Alien technology to do it...]. She was not a happy enough person before RSE and her life here in Yelm was a constant battle with depression that was only lifted by the jazz of events. I kept asking her, "But what do YOU want to do...where would YOU like to live if you are not happy living here???" etc... But this was it, and Ram was her one and only. Yet, behold, she loved me and loved watching my freedom out of school, and I daresay, teh Co dependancy between us made it not an option for me to relace Ramtha as the anchor for her life.
My point being, that just being yourself, without even trying to talk someone out of RSE, may be the easiest way to go. I find that some of these forever students really do behave with an insecurity and attitude that prooves the point that staying in RSE really goes nowhere except in the mind of the person staying there...whihc of course is how I explained to my friends..that the benefits I was recieving were "within me" and I couldnt share with them how frequentially profound I was feeling after an event.
Fortunately, I aimed to live in that heightened state whereever I went, and even moving away from the school, didnt diminish my light.
Some current people are so afraid to leave, I hope they can rationalize that its worth a try..and if they die becasue of it, what worse thing can happen, andby the way, what about the devoted ones who died anyway, unsaved and unprotected by The Big Guy.
Cherry Blossom asked, "Are there a lot of people in the school who are shysters that take advantage of others?"
And the answer is --- YES, YES, YES - there are a lot of skysters in RSE and they are masters at it, having learned from a Master. The whole process of the Ramtha experience has promoted the worst of human failings. Ramtha is at best, non-existent or at worst a channelled devil and JZ is a very successful shyster selling poisoness spiritual snake oil.
Seesallsides commented, "...the benefits I was receiving were within me and I couldn't share with them how frequentially profound I was feeling after an event."
I stayed at RSE much longer than I should have exactly for this reason. By the end of an event I would feel profoundly altered within and (in my mind) it made the possibility of becoming a Christ believable.
What I would now say is that I became addicted to that profound feeling which meant that of course I was going to return.
And what I understand now is that the creation of that profound feeling was contrived. The so called disciplines put a "student" (or is that stooge?)in a trance, also known as dissociation. The trance allows one to live in two worlds simultaneously.
What occurs in trance is explained beautifully by Craig Nakken in his book, "The Addictive Personality."
"Our attraction to trance-like sensations grows out of our natural desire for transcendence to contact and live within spiritual principles. It is our desire to reconnect with the divine. The sensations of the trance produce a feeling in the individual that connection has taken place. It creates a virtual reality in which spiritual experience seems real but is in fact only illusionary."
Because it "seemed real" I kept returning (kept paying JZ Knight)but the truth is that the profound feeling never lasted nor did it generate spiritual power. We can know that it was illusionary because I am not a Christ!
Having vowed to be tolerant and accepting of my partner's RSE beliefs I lost it big time last night. We had a massive argument because I couldn't help putting in my two cents worth when my partner mentioned Ramtha (for those of you who don't know my partner is a 20 year follower). It's so hard to look at this intelligent man and rationalize his belief in a cult. I am too anxious for him to see the truth but he won't take anything I say seriously as he says I don't have any knowledge of the school because I have never been there or really looked into the teachings (I don't need to go to a mosque to know I don't believe in Islam) I read one Ramtha book and thought it was a piece of nonsense, badly written and laughable. That's not enough though according to my partner to make an assesment. I would go to an event but how do I keep a straight face (anything I have seen on JZ playing Ramtha is funny to me, how do people take her seriously). Things got so bad last night my partner actually suggested I was a reptilian and that I was trying to persuade him over to the dark side. I guess I am worried that he will never see the truth and that as we get older his involvement in the school will become more intense, he hasn't been to an event in the two years since we have been together and I dread the day.
I was humbled this morning – thinking/feeling I was attempting to build bridges and express concern, I ended up being interfering and insulting. Although the specifics are not related to participation in Judy’s place, there is a lesson for me in this humbling and painful experience that reinforces and pushes me to articulate my response to Agape and Cherry Blossom. Based on my experience, the best we can do for those we love is love them – and trust that That Which is at their heart essence will prevail – believe in their heart, their strength, their Soul Center. In my life, there were 3 people who loved me through a decade of my involvement/hookedness to Judy’s Ramtha --- I am certain that their patient love facilitated my ultimate awakening/”graduation”. At the same time, no one I knew who’d left attempted to persuade me of anything – until I asked. The very fact that a person hooked into Judy’s reality has relationships of any kind with other realities is significant and ultimately, I believe, helpful in the journey out of delusionland.
I will quickly add that I had left Judy’s world prior to wine ceremonies, prozac and poisonous sea water. These kinds of toxic activities add another ingredient to our response to involved loved ones – certainly if we see life threatening activities/behaviors, we may have to take greater risk in speaking out. It is painful to watch those we love lost in a wine bottle, lose home and property, jobs, friends… The best we can do is consistently love, and ‘listen’ carefully for whatever action we can take.
This forum is one way we have of at least providing information and opportunity for perspective’s other than Judy’s.
I was humbled today doing what I thought was going to be helpful – and wasn’t. I alienated instead of drawing closer. I share my learning with you, and will be more mindful of holding my tongue while opening my heart. (I also put this under Agape's question re planting seeds.)
Hmmm, a reptilian?
The dark side?
Well, the good news is that as he gets older (emphasis on the word OLDER) he should think (or maybe you will point out?!) that according to the teachings he shouldn't be getting older! Why is he getting older, anyhow? What about all those disciplines? What about all those changed beliefs? How come they are not working? Why is he getting older???
And while you are at it, where is the spiritual power? You know, the invisible mental power that raises the dead, heals the sick and other marvelous things? Where is it? How come it is not turned on?
Rick Ross, a cult specialist, has some great material on his website on the topic of loved ones in cults.
Virtual reality - my partner believes he will get younger not older, he totally believes he will ascend in this lifetime. It's me that doesn't, at the moment whilst we are relatively young (45) I keep him as busy with real life as possible. I'm just concerned as partying and other things slow down, his attention will be even more focused on RSE. Patience and tolerance are probably the only tools I can apply at the moment.
At 45, isn't he showing some signs of aging? Grey around the temples? An ache that wasn't there before? Reading glasses?
And what are the mechanics of his ascension? What technique?
According to "Ramtha" he became extremely proficient at out of body travel before he "decided" to leave via "ascension." (The whole idea may be a myth...)
My partner is good at out of body experiences he has been doing that since he was 10 years old (or so he claims). No he doesn't have grey around his temples nor do I at 44, no aches and pains we are both really healthy, no illness, I don't think I have been sick for 10 years or more. My partner conquered his asthma 3 years ago after having it chronically for all of his life. I don't associate any of this with Ramtha (I had never heard of Ramtha until I met my partner 2 years ago). I think a good attitude keeps you young and healthy. I probably look younger than my partner does but we would both look like people in our late 30's not mid 40's. I believe thats down to attitude and genetics not RSE!
Kudos to that, Aussie girl! To date, there is NO viable or provable way (genetic or otherwise), for humans to reverse the natural process of life. Your best "defenses" are: a healthy diet, moderation in all things, a healthy attitude, regualr exercise and flexibility training, continuing and varying education, and, if you're lucky, good genes.
If you want a non-Judith viewpoint of professional reading material on longevity, you can visit this website. Uh oh...I may be giving new ideas for teachings ? LOL
"Uh oh...I may be giving new ideas for teachings ? LOL"
now THAT is funny.
But even worse, portions are true!!!!
is he your partner?
Yes Comte St German that is my partner
can you say "entrenched?"
Aussie Girl...hang it there.
Thanks Tree, he's worth hanging in for but I am aware that he may never come to the realisation about the school, Ramtha and JZ that you guys have.
Perhaps he never will and he'll be what some of us call "lifers". They're there til they die, ...and not one has ascended.
BUT, the other side of it is, a number of us on this forum would have been viewed by others as "lifers", too.
... and here we are ... on EMF. Older and wiser ... and not silent.
whatcha - it's ex-ramsters like you and Tree and others on this forum that give me hope that there can be change even when someone seems so entrenched. My partner and I were both working in our office yesterday (we have started a business together), it was Friday afternoon and we were winding down, he started listening to a JZ "talk" on his computer, I smiled and was nice and didn't let it get to me. If I make a fuss it gets us nowhere, I felt really good that I was able to be tolerant, its the only way to move forward.
One of the Most disconcerting things about being involved in a relationship where each has a different belief system is that it is so easy to think that there is something wrong with the way the other thinks - mostly because it doesn't fit with what you think, and vise-versa. People always find it easy to justify what it is they believe in. Whether or not it has any real validity independant of the observer is insignificant to ones personal experience.
I have found when you do believe in something passionately, amazing and valueable things happen.
Let's hope your partner is seeing and doing things according to his own will, and not blindly following orders by some would-be heirophant. There is nothing wrong with taking the value out of something, and discarding the BS. That is I think what we all do in life anyway. We get what we can and filter out the BS. If someone NEEDS RSE for whatever reason and can't see themselves anymore, they are in trouble.
I like you a lot. I like Tree a lot too. I appreciate that you are thinking for yourselves.
What is important is your accomplishments, and that you take full credit for the choices you make and celebrate the successes you have. If he is doing the same thing, and not allowing the JZ/RAM to take credit for his accomplishments, I would say you have nothing to worry about.
I think there are a few choice people who can still be independant observers, and get involved in things like RSE, and not allow their judgments to become so skewed that they commit crazy atrocities such like the ones I have read about here. Or perhaps they would have done those things anyway, and RSE becomes an easy justification for the stupid things they do...
BY the WAY,
If someone sold me a crappy car they said was fine, and that car broke down an hour after I bought it, then upon returning it they said "you created that reality"... I might have to tell them: "guess what, you just created a punch in the face!" and then promptly punch them in the face.
Crumb Cake - thoughful response, my partner isn't immersed as much as he could be or he would be attending events. I think if that were the case it would be impossible for us to be together. He has however believed in Ramtha for 20 years so its very ingrained. We just avoid the subject as much as possible, which is a little difficult as there are lots of things we cant really discuss. And sometimes if I know he is reading, watching or listening to RSE material I want to scream (but don't of course). It's all the associated conspiracy theory things too that are hard for me to digest - aliens, illuminati, centre of the earth, tidal wives, natural disasters etc etc . Finding this forum has been of such great support to me
My Mom has been in the RSE school for many years .
We used to have a close relationship , and one of the things I most valued about my Mom was her open minded curiosity about everything . We used to have long discussions about metaphysics and life and values and society . Those interests were what gave us enough common ground to work around some of the areas where things were more difficult . Both me and my Mom have
always had magical things in our lives , and small and large miracles are not unfamiliar to either of us .
But JZ Knight's business enterprise, and sensational Ramtha teachings that don't work , long ago took over my Mom's life and mind and , it's been years since I have had anything resembling a relationship with my Mom .
Not that things were perfect before JZ came into the picture . As I say we always had some difficult things in there , but JZ / Ramtha's influence has encouraged all my Mom's weaknesses and not her strengths . My Mom has always had a tendency to want "Unlimited wealth and abundance" ( in my Mom's mind this is material ) and also to rely on denial and magical thinking , to solve problems .
So JZ's unrealistic promises were very attractive to my Mom's personality and personal weaknesses .
The awesome magic of life means a lot to me , and quite frankly I am disgusted to see this bent to petty and narcissistic ends .
I can no longer talk to my Mom about anything , that I care about , and I stick to safe topics like the weather , because if I stray into any topic that is meaningful to me . I get to hear what "the Ram" says about that .
When I had cancer , I had to listen to my Mom go on and on about what Ramtha says about cancer ( I created it, and I can uncreate it . Blah blah blah ) When my beloved pet of many years was dying of old age , I got to have my last hours interrupted by phone calls from my Mom thinking she had surely healed my pet, using Ramtha teachings . She had a really hard time accepting it wasn't working . I never asked her to try anyways , so it felt like a total invasion . My
Mom was so brainwashed that for several months after my pet died , she would still begin talking about how my pet had recovered . When I would say no , my pet had died , my Mom was shocked and confused that he hadn't gotten better . And then she'd forget he died and once more I would have to explain the healing hadn't worked .
Of course , having a Mom in a state like this , means I get no meaningful emotional support and haven't for years .
I have had to sit through sensational irrelevant lectures about Gray men , reptilians , alien abductions , a hollow earth .I'm not interested in stuff like this . Just that the Earth is the right distance form the sun and we get to eat good tasting
food and beaty all around us is all the senstional miraculous stuff I need to feel good . This other stuff seem way over the top. Something only people too jaded to see the beauty of life , would need to cling on to . It feels evil to me .
It feels like something sucked all my Mom's insides out and replaced it with weird ideas and gray slime , and when I have to listen to it , I am getting gray slime in my own mind , and all over my relationship with my Mom . I never chose this . It feels like being raped . This has gone on so long , all that is left of my relationship with my Mom is anger and frustration .
As for my Mom , over the years she has lost almost everything she has , through relying on stupid teachings that don't work as advertised > She has paid to learn this crap , paid for JZ / Ramtha to take credit for the small miracles and goodness that were in her life, long before she ever heard of RSE . Whatever she had left, has been given to RSE associated scam artists , with their promises of many ~obviously not real ~ miraculous ways to make money . As we all know , all these side scams by people involved in the school did , was take what little Ramsters had left , after JZ and dysfunctional beliefs bled them dry .
My Mom is now getting old , but she has made no plans for retirement or old age or health coverage , because JZ , claiming to channel this enlightened teacher for big bucks . has convinced my om the God within her would take care of those things , and and my Mom had better believe this , because common sense planning is negative thinking that will create the old age and
sickness and poverty my Mom is living through now . So now there is no plan , and my Mom still refuses to accept she needs one.
Freedom of religion seems like a good thing , but when religion and belief systems becomes a business , and the product does not work as advertised , but someone has gotten rich off selling this , it seems there should be some legal recourse .It would seem to be common decency to return all the money people like my Mom have spent on this bogus product that doesn't
work . And the damage to our family relationships and the years lost can never be repaid or repaired .
I am really angry and disgusted that anyone could be as irresponsible as JZ Knight has been, in encouraging people to hold such extreme , and obviously unreal and dysfunctional beliefs and expectations .
In my opinion , JZ 's actions show no more social responsibility than a crack dealer . What she is doing does no real good , hurts people and should be illegal. If religon is going to be a money making business then it **** well had better work .
As for how I cope - I don't . I have no choice , no control , and it isn't " my life" . But it is, because it is my Mom . It is like having a relationship with someone who has an addiction problem , but it is even deeper than that . All that is left of my relationship with my Mom is anger and frustration .
JZ , I hope you read this and think about how your
so called "school" affect peoples lives . It often isn't a pretty picture .
angry daugher - what a powerful post. I know what its like to avoid topics because you just get the Ramtha speak. I am like you I love this life and everything in it. I just finished quite a good conversation with my RSE partner where I told him that he didn't need to buy food etc for the inevitable shortage (as predicted by Ramtha) as it wouldn't happen and if it did I would sign a document that he could eat me. For once my positive nature really rubbed off on him, this was following a conversation about gold whereby I explained to him that gold doesn't hold its value (and I demonstrated this using 30 and 20 years of gold prices to prove the point). I feel quite positive today that I have had an impact, I do believe though that if he comes to the realisation that its all a scam our relationship will not withstand. After 20 years of him believing and with me dismissing it from the first day we met two years ago I don't think he could cope with me being right about it all.
Hello Angry Daughter,
Yes, you are entitled to your anger, disappointment, frustration and fear (of what will become of your Mom.) I think that you realize that your Mom is not in her right mind, she is living and thinking under the control of JZ who uses a persona named "Ramtha" and mind control techniques. This has been my experience and forms my opinion.
In September 2006, David McCarthy organized a "Life after RSE" gathering at Millersylvania State Park. A number of RSE staff showed up including Greg Simmons, one of RSE's "appointed teachers." Greg said to David, "There was no need to hold this gathering. If you were unhappy about something all you had to do was contact us."
So that is an option you have. Make your anger and disappointment productive by putting JZ and Greg Simmons to the test. Tell them exactly what you have told us and you can post their response (or lack of) right here.
Was Greg Simmons sincere when he told David McCarthy, "All you had to do was contact us."
very very powerful post.
I could have very well trod down that path,
but thank God for a forum such as this.
I see many many people, esp foreigners, who
are in the same position as your mother,
eeking it out in the wods with under the table
on-again, off-again jobs nearing retirement age
and with absolutely NOTHING.
I am finding it difficult at best trying to
bring the pieces together to move on.
Had it not been for the support and love of
people on this forum, I might just be one
of the ex students living off of Prana with
some serious mental complications.
I feel very bad for the deterioration of the relationship between you and
I would be hard pressed to watch my mother in
such a condition entering the older years.
I know there are others who post on this forum who
are in the same boat as you.
May you for ever see the true beauty in this life
and my heart goes out to you.....
I also went through the stage of trying to talk to my Mom and demonstrate the teachings are false, or at best a misconstrued collection of interesting ideas from other sources . Pointing out how Ramtha's many predictions have not come true ,just gets excused, because my mom says , "The work done by people in the school prevented it from happening", or "It Did happen somewhere else a few months later ". My Mom says she has seen many miracles attending this school , but when I try and remind her we both had miracles before RSE , and I still do , with no involvement in RSE , it is like in her mind the volume gets turned way down . At this point , she has been in the school so long , she has so many friends "in the school" ,and her real life is in such a mess , I think it would be really hard for her to get out . She still could , and she could still have a simple good quality of life outside the school , just nothing like the fantasy of "unlimited wealth " and "eternal life" she has invested so much into achieving .
I don't think she is going to change , and I don't want to try and make her change , but I constantly have to listen to the stressful results and practical problems created in her life through her belief in the Ramtha teachings . And it keeps getting worse . I do feel a lot of concern where she is going to end up . So there is the ongoing problem of not wanting to argue with her , but not being able to agree with her, or support her, when she announces another impractical plan of action , based on magical thinking that is sure to create more problems than she already has .
It is her choice to go through this , but it sure isn't mine . And I am not the only family member who is being injured in this way by JZ's business .
I hope JZ and business partners do read this , but I don't feel able to send it to them . It is my Mom's
"choice" ( brainwashed though she may be ) to be in RSE , and if I was to name her and myself in a formal complaint , she would feel I was getting in the way
of her choices , and she would probably also fear retaliation from within the school . A formal complaint that named names would just bring my Mom and me into even more conflict than we already are in . So I can post here , without naming names , knowing many people in RSE match my Mom's description , and hope
the people running RSE have enough decency to at least feel a bit of shame . As they have damaged so many people lives , and this is obvious , I doubt they have it in them to actually care about the consequences of their business , but, perhaps public pressure might make them reconsider . Yes I am entitled to my anger and outrage , and in a situation where people are getting screwed it is a healthy reaction .
Being outraged and speaking out about it, can be a powerful thing . Taking advantage of peoples need for a deeper meaning in their lives and a Spiritual community , and using it as a way to make money
is just wrong . Shame on those who know the truth , but do not tell because it is to their own advantage to remain silent .
I appreciate the courage of the people speaking out here . Thanks for providing a forum for people to do so , and I hope other family members will also speak out . It isn't so simple as : "If it makes them happy , whats the problem ? " .
"It is her choice to go through this but it sure isn't mine."
When I participated at RSE I BELIEVED that I was making choices but the truth is that my choices were being made for me.
In my experience and opinion your Mom is not choosing using free will therefore it is not a choice. It is an illusion.
If you don't mind me asking, I am curious about your comment concerning retaliation from RSE. What do you imagine could happen?
it seems that your mom has much to learn from you. maybe something will change for her, and she'll have an awakening of the get-out-of-rse kind. don't give up hope. some of us here who post, who are former students of rse, were Very Committed. it doesn't mean a thing. when the illusion cracks, it's just OVER.
i hope that your mom finds the crack and slips through it.
doesn't matter how long she was in the school. i know a lot of long time students that are happy to be free of rse.
your points are well taken ! thanks for posting.
yes, if more people had courage, and would speak out, it only empowers them, and educates the rest of us who read here. not to mention, IN MY OPINION, it is morally corrupt not to speak out. especially when one can do so on here, anonymously.
EyesWideOpen, my Mom has never said anything to me about being afraid of retaliation if I identify her and publicly say I think RSE sucks . I am just feeling this could be a problem from what I know of human nature in similar situations , and what I am reading in these pages of other peoples experience at RSE . And I am sure my Mom would feel her life in RSE is none of my business .
I understand my Mom's weaknesses are being manipulated , but she does have a choice . Or she did when there was still something of herself left .
It is hard for me to understand how people get hooked , but it seems for many of the people posting here , it was an honest search for truth . Reading through the posts here I am amazed at the general intelligence and sensitivity of the people posting here . How can such intelligent and welI intentioned folks get sucked into believing such an unlikely tale ? I have been reading a bit about the dynamics of a cult , how a persons mental anchors are destabilized or removed , their self esteem is shattered , their logical mind is overwhelmed with too much information , and they come to rely on the cult leaders for the sense of self worth and direction that has been taken from them .
But there is also the worm on the hook that initially attracts people in there , and that attraction to that particular type of worm is peoples own personalities , not something outside themselves . The general impression I have had , is my Mom got hooked by the fact she very much wants to be able to manifest whatever she wants ( fabulous wealth and eternal youth ) . It also seems she finds the sensational national enquirer type of information that is often "taught" in RSE thrilling , and sharing these intense experiences with others has created some strong social bonds . I respect the social bonds part ,but the quest for the fountain of youth and the great cosmic credit card that never needs to be paid , seems to be a entirely
trivial self centered pursuit, which has nothing to do with truth or self mastery . It is kind of like an alcoholic who studies the bible in the hopes of being able to turn water into wine . So as that is what appears to get my Mom hooked , it is a bit harder to feel respect for this . Maybe some of you who were in RSE have a better understanding of this than I do , but this is how it looks to me .
I am mostly outraged at JZ making money by confusing people , but I am also completely fed up with my Mom's foolishness that makes her so vulnerable . She is like a monkey with it's hand caught in a box trap . because it won't let go of the banana inside . And most frustrating of all , it's a plastic banana !
This is just my perceptions , and it is just my Mom I am talking about . Maybe other people have got hooked by more noble things like a search for truth . That is one part of what attracted my Mom , but that she chose to do this through the JZ route is very much that she wants the promised goodies . So I am angry at my Mom too . How can she be so silly for so long ?
I really respect the people who have had the courage to face reality and have moved on from the RSE . I have made equally profound , though different errors of judgment in my life , and I don't want to make anyone who is detoxing from this group feel bad about how they may have affected their families . We all just do the best we can and there is a silver lining to every gray cloud . Still.. . It is really hard not to see my Mom as having some responsibility because my Mom does have a choice , and she repeatedly seems to choose blindness and foolishness . It is hard to have respect for her when she does that .
What is even more outrageous than how this has affected me , as an adult having my Mom get involved in this , is how the children who's parents are involved in this are being affected . Those drunken wine ceremonies ( and my Mom has mentioned this ) and public humiliation of students , sounds really frightening and abusive . Those kids have even less choice than I do about getting dragged through that crap .
I also hope that my mom finds the crack and slips through it. That would mean so much to get my Mom back again . Thanks for those good wishes whatchamacallit , and all that is being done here to help people do just that .
"It is hard for me to understand how people get hooked."
Yup, that is the nature of the cult experience. The person has no idea s/he is being hooked. The participant does not realize that slick mind control techniques are being used. S/he thinks s/he attended a week-end workshop, simple as that.
But where does that compelling feeling to return come from? Perhaps it is a measure of someone's suggestibility. Some people leave never to return and others cannot stay away. That is the power of hypnosis
and apparently it is highly subjective.
Dr. Margaret Singer, who did seminal work in identifying and understanding cults ("Cults in Our Midst") found that people who get sucked into cults are often at a psychological or emotional low point in their lives. They have recently experienced something dramatic which puts them on a search. At that point they are highly vulnerable because the old belief system is crumbling and there may be an unconscious desire to fill the emptiness as quickly as possible.
Could high vulnerability translate into high suggestibility?
"How can such intelligent and well intentioned folks get sucked into believing such an unlikely tale?"
Good question. Dr. Singer also identified that people in cults are generally intelligent, hard working and idealistic. They possess a "can do" attitude and the advertised cult goal, which is usually "make the world a better place" appeals to their altruism. JZ sells "Christhood." To someone on the outside it sounds silly but I clearly remember the event I was at when the concept took anchor in my mind. In the space of 45 minutes while participating in what is called "C&E" (deep breathing coupled with loud music while wearing blindfolds) I transitioned from thinking Christhood is a nice idea to believing I could achieve it. How did that happen? And once I BELIEVED it no one was going to talk me out of it! The experience I have just described is the hypnotic state. The participant thinks it is real, everyone else knows it is not. That is how an intelligent and well intentioned person gets sucked into believing an unlikely tale.
"...sensational National Enquirer type of information taught at RSE is thrilling..."
Yes, this is another facet of the cult experience. An emotionally addictive state is intentionally created in order to keep the participant "hooked." Craig Nakken explains this state in his book, "The Addictive Personality - Understanding the Addictive Process and Compulsive Behavior."
Hello Angry D,
I totally understand where you are coming from. I experienced a similar situation only I am the parent.
As I began to understand the seriousness of my family’s involvement I was increasingly more frightened, concerned and angry.
I would uncover more and more information which I thought would make it undeniably clear that the whole concept JZ proposes is a cover for taking peoples $'s.
Each time something would be presented or discussed it ended up in the "that’s your truth".
It took me some time to understand that each time I initiated a situation which ended in the "that’s my truth" answer. Reinforced that idea in my family members mind and also the perception that I was a threat to what they were attempting to accomplish. ( I believe that JZ/RSE understand this process and uses it to keep outside relationships at a distance)
By continually putting myself in that position amplified my anger and frustration (though well deserved). That however, did not bring me closer to my goal which was to have a relationship with my family again.
When something is taken from ones deepest connection (their family) there is pain felt on a multitude of levels, some too great to acknowledge at the time it happens. It does feel like a rape. There is nothing to be done about it (the act is accomplished) and certainly the rapee would not have wanted it to take place had they known the eventual outcome.
There is however some things that can be done about the outcome of the action. I am well aware that due to the nature and individuality of human beings that responses to situations such as a loved one belonging to a cult will be varied and I am not putting forward anything resembling a quick fix only a small bit of my experience in the hopes that those reading and effected by a similar situation might have an opportunity to add my experience to their knowledge base should they wish to.
I hope to soon add to the guest speaker’s page a full account detailing the hows and whys of my experience from beginning to end from a parent’s point of view. (My family member successfully transitioned out of RSE after over 10 years)
I happened at the time to have the time and energy to devote to increasing my understanding of cultic involvement. My understanding would come in waves and sometimes spin out in all sorts of ways because of the nature of the beast. At all of these times one of the things which anchored me was the reminder of how important my family member was to my life and how much I wanted them to remain a part of my life and not allow (this is what I found the most difficult) what both they and I were experiencing to take away from that.
"I understand my Mom's weaknesses are being manipulated , but she does have a choice . Or she did when there was still something of herself left . "
Boy, do I understand that statement! First, let me assure you that there will always be something left of herself. It may be difficult for you to see, hear, and enjoy, but the power of JZ/RSE lie in its ability to cover up and keep hidden rather then its ability to change and re-create as they would like to think.
Try to imagine it this way; As if your mom had been brought to a state of feeling like a child and the perpetrator then tucked her in with a nice blanket over both her and her thinking and choices.
At first this blanket is nice and fluffy and light. As the process gets repeated the weight of the blankets gets heavier and heavier but like the frog in the pot of water put to boil she does not realize what is happening.
Soon things are added to the blanketing which change the structure of the blankets themselves, not only are they heavy but they become like thick mud. Eventually, they may turn into concrete.
Depending on what stage of the process the cult member is in will depend on how they might come out of it.
If a rock is dropped on them when they were in the "mud" stage it might stick there but will do nothing at the time to uncover them. However at a later stage, if a rock is dropped and it is heavy enough it may break through the concrete and allow them to see that there is something more out there for them.
As you can see, there are virtually endless situations and ways in which a cult member may get uncovered (and I might add Re- covered and I don't mean recovered!).
So (and I am getting a bit long winded), you are right in saying your mom has choices but understanding that they might not be available to her at the present so that she can avail herself of them in a productive manner is also another part of that truth.
We loved ones are the archeologists in a way. We know the treasure buried beneath. The more we know the more we can retrieve these treasures in a careful, constructive way which is the least damaging.
And in some cases we might just have to deal with the knowing they are there and remembering them for the treasure they still are.
..i just want to acknowledge you for the power of truth in your postings. Your understanding of your situation is brilliant – lucid – strong. In your assessment, you can even include humor (cosmic credit card..omg that is so on). Your sharing is so healing for me again (like the first time I visited emf). It is so beautiful, and it is still happening: one-by-one. I too - still hang in there with people still ‘hooked on’ to this addiction- Yes - ever more powerful than heroin. Knowing your mother has you in her life: your mirroring, your clarity, your unconditional love - I believe someday, somehow, she will awaken. I marvel at my own falling into this deep dark Hole. I believe it brought out the last of my victimhood, vestiges of abuse hx, so as to never reappear again. No more external reference points for me!
You are so present with the situation, your feelings, your mom’s ‘reality’ so wise beyond any years you might be. What a clear resolve you are to HEAL... your family and ALL of us! I too, wish those perpetrators, (predators that they are) – read this, stop it, do restitution, so that the cycle can stop. But, that idea, no matter how lofty, is yet another side bar, distraction from your Self... No need to go more public than this, be a target ("bummer of a bull’s eye…”) for the continuing drama, bad playhouse that is so gut-wretching. MOVE ON! Your sweet energy is needed elsewhere..
Get on the conveyor belt of your Life - Be YOUR creativity. Do something in communications, film, writing – you are good at it. I have no idea how young/old you are – but share your talents with the World! Your ability with words, images, compassion, humor, steadfastness to knowing&loving is unusual & extraordinary.
When you take steps to freely express your truth – live your life without regard to your mother – an unfolding will occur: yours, but hers too. (There is some deep connection, knowing between mothers and daughters.) As you find your freedom, your strength, your happiness - healing will occur, for both of you, even if you have to leave, not talk as much, etc. No matter. Your growth/shifts are at hand, not to be limited by anyone, hx, belief. Go girl - benefit the planet with your greatness…..truly.
Angry Daughter, Journey, Agape -- brilliant beautiful articulation -- ditto ditto ditto. Thank you. You are artists of the Soul.
Hold the vision of the Truth of your loved ones - what ever else we do, it's the best we can do. Those people in my life who did so for me contributed more than we'll ever know to my 'awakening' out of poisoned sleep. We here are evidence that there is hope.
I apologize for posting a bit abouve under "guest" when I signed it "Tree". THe person who is renting a place from me posted from my computer, and I did not catch the glitch. Sorry for the confusion.
As far as "my crack", I was utterly fortunate to have been laid off a year ago this time from RSE, wanting to keep my car and eat, I found a better paying job, and I needed a respit from working at RSE , as my physician so aptly put: "you are working in a dysfunctional environment."
(side note: my physician attends the school!!!!)
so I waited and waited for an opprotunity to arise, and
I found work elsewhere.
THen I decided to "take a breat" from RSE and the position that I was in.
6 months later, EMF was shown to me.
I don't know who or what to thank at this point,
but I am fng glad!!
After 18 years......
as far as children being in the environment, when I first found out I was in a "cohersive persuasive group" my first thought was: "OMG!! I have raised my child in this environment. !!! he surely must be messed up!!"
It was until Joe Sz told me that the children ( usually when they reach teenage-dom) figure out the scam before the parents do.
I am just so happy, that I never let my kid go hungry
just because and event was happening!
I just cannot imagine dealing with a mother or father
in such a group.
I am sure it rates right up there with the recovery
Your thoughts and posts are very inspiring and thoughtful.
Thanks for all the kind and caring words . It helps to be able to say all that . I find having to learn to communicate , is a side benefit of being a bit crazy .
Journey through Ramthaland ; If one of my kids got involved in RSE my burning desire would be to take JZ apart with my bare hands , to demonstrate Ramtha was Not in there . Not that I think this is a good idea but Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr I don't like people messing with my kids .
You are a very wise person to have been able to do this with more intelligence and foresight than I would have been able to . Seeing someone misleading your child would be so upsetting . Just imagining it I get really upset .
I am so glad your beloved daughter is free of the spell now . Life does have a gentle but annoyingly insistent way of constantly confronting us with the Truth .
As for our kids and how we affect them . No parent is perfect . I was not in RSE but I was imperfect in many other ways .I think as long as we do our best to be truthful with ourselves and our kids , we have done all we can . If people were meant to be perfect , we would have been made that way ! It is the struggles that teach us strength , faith , patience . tolerance , compassion , etc . I do my best to not hurt anyone and be an honest person but I would never change anything in my past,even if it was a painful experience , because who knows what lesson I learned from that experience , that I might loose? We all just do our best ,and as long as we do I think that is OK .