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I've mentioned before that my partner is a follower of RSE. I try not to discuss Ramtha or the school with him at all as it inevitably leads to an argument, unfortunately as much as I try I can't help but see the whole thing as a cult (something he vehemently denies of course). I fully believe that JZ will be exposed and as I have mentioned before on this forum, am concerned as to how my partner will manage after 20 years of following Ramtha and the school. It is difficult for me to understand how this beautiful intelligent man can be sucked in like this. However, because he has all the learned responses to every comment I make about RSE and Ramtha I dont believe there is any opportunity for me at the moment to help him realise what is really going on. What I wondered was (to all the ex-Ramsters on this forum) - would there have been anything anyone could have said to you that would have made you sincerely question the teachings, the school or JZ's motives when you were part of the school? Or is the best thing for me just to wait until my partner questions it more himself and be supportive of any fallout from this?
Speaking for myself what I realize now after 17 years of attending events and doing the disciplines EVERYDAY is that I was hypnotized from the very beginning. When I first showed up at RSE I thought it was a weird place and I had no interest in returning yet something COMPELLED me to return. What was it???
Would I have listened to someone trying to reason with me? I did not have the ability to reason, I was unknowingly under the influence of JZ Knight. That is why when you talk to your boyfriend his responses are predictable. The only thing he can say is what he has been trained/programmed to say. And this is your clue that he is under the influence of hypnosis and mind control.
Here is an example of an experience I had. It was my third event and I decided that I did not like RSE and did not understand what was going on. The music was too loud and it hurt my ears. I packed up my things to leave. As I walked to my vehicle carrying my gear a Red Guard walked past and asked, "Are you leaving?"
I was leaving. I had packed up all of my stuff. I was walking to my vehicle carrying it. I opened my mouth to tell the Red Guard I was leaving and much to my surprise I heard myself say, "No, I'm not leaving."
WHAT WAS THAT? Yes, I was leaving. No, I wasn't. Yes, I was leaving. No, I wasn't. I wanted to leave but didn't. What kept me there? After only 3 events my free will had been overcome by the influence of RSE. This phenomenon is described very well by 2 Moonie recruits in the video "Captive Minds" on www.googlevideo.com.
Over the years a lot more information about mind control and cults has become available. Back then we were truly innocent and naive. We were very easy prey.
In my experience and opinion RSE is a dangerous place because what you see is not what you get.
If you want to truly help your boyfriend and you think he will eventually "wake up" the best thing to do is to educate yourself although that may create a conflict in you because the more you know and understand they more concerned you may become. You might want to view Derren Brown's video clips on www.youtube.com. in order to understand the effectiveness of suggestion. Also Joe Szimhart at the LARSE (Life After RSE) gathering on www.googlevideo.com.
Helpful books are:
TAKE BACK YOUR LIFE by Lalich and Tobias
CULTS IN OUR MIDST by Singer
RECOVERY FROM CULTS by Langone
BRAINWASHING by Taylor
Other books which put RSE/Ramtha in context are:
400 YEARS OF IMAGINARY FRIENDS by Paolini
WHEN PROPHECY FAILS by Festinger
PSYCHIC MAFIA by Keene (www.skepsis.nl/mafia.html
It's extremely difficult to "wake up" because something has to happen which is stronger than the hypnotic influence. Also, the disciplines taught at RSE are designed to keep the student in auto-suggestion.
If and when a student does "wake up" their reality is shattered. The nursery rhyme "Humpty-Dumpty" describes it rather well. "Humpty Dumpty sat on the wall. Humpty-Dumpty had a great fall. All of the King's horses and all of the King's men couldn't put
Humpty-Dumpty back together again."
At this point is when you can be of the greatest help to your boyfriend by keeping him involved in "grounding" activities. Anything that requires him to actively think and use his body simultaneously (cooking, gardening, maintenance work, active sports.) Try to avoid activities strictly mental like television and the computer.
The good news is that intelligent, altruistic people are those most likely to be pulled into cults. They are risk takers and care enough to hope and believe that they can make a difference in the world. Unfortunately the sad truth is that this hope and belief can be exploited. No doubt your boyfriend is a fine man and it is great that you care enough to ask questions. Anytime you need encouragement stop by EMF.
sadly but honestly i wouldent have.my low income protected at the end my soule.i deffended rse years after i left based on the patterns which get sneaked in with the teachings.i allways whatched what a place does to people.fact is so richer you r so more comfortable you r with rse.most of the longterms have overaverage income.if you can fly in and out only for events the magig could be kept up.you dont have to bother with all the sidestuff[rumers,masters stealing,contradictens,jzs problems which she transfers into ramthas evening lectures.....] because it will get kept seecret from you untill you have paid for it.after i was out there i thought:the most evicient way to have taken this would have been make a beginnerretreet every three years and deal with cold turky in the time between.because it is very addictive.after 3 years the secret teachings today will be teached to the beginners.my relationshipp broke on finances and rse[and offcourse of me].i wish you good luck and that you both stay happy.a 20 year old tree gets ripped too many roots if you transplant it.but on this board r people which can help you better than me.what disscusted me from the beginning was the mindsetup how you r when you leave [=failier] when i think bak now there is no honarable way to end the school[according to jzr]
What do any of you think about the teachers at RSE. Are they brainwashed as well - or do they know it is a scam? I listened to them again recently on the BTO radio, Mike Wright and Greg Simmons and Miceal Ledwith. They all talk as if they really do believe in Ramtha. Being so close to JZ for all of these years, how could that be possible unless they are true scoundrels or they are brainwashed like the rest of the students. Miceal seems the most sincere. But sometimes I have thought that Greg Simmons must be in on the scam and he is as big a con artist as JZ. Also, Has anyone ever been in touch with Joe since he was kicked out?
''''What do any of you think about the teachers at RSE. Are they brainwashed as well ''''
imo I believe they are indeed brainwashed some more than others. Some of the teachers appear to change from 'nice' to nasty to students. The whole thing imo is sadistic with JR/RJ watching students from her cozy through high powered binoculars. I can only wonder how some of the teachers are programmed. The beginning events imo always are much gentler. The deeper in you get the deeper sh*te you are in, in losing your own will. Watching the Jim Jones segment in Captive Minds reminded me of the craziness of the crowd when the big R makes an appearance. I observed and saw some people ex. an italian family next to me who didn't get up and clap or stand each time the americans and canadians around me did. Freethinkers. Getting back to the Jim Jones segment, in the frenzy of the moment imo there are people at rse while 'R' is supposedly there-who would do anything they were told including drinking laced kool aid. Remember the assay where 'poison' was made using a lye process and it was to prolong life? There is so much more you all know than I do. Its also scary when people sit by and watch another get hit. If I had been closer I would have left. A women who was a student for many years told me if 'R' behaved that way her first visit she would have walked out.
I'd like to also add that most people who attend RSE do not return, especially for any length of time. So, for the few thousand "current" students, there are many, many thousands who have gone in and OUT those RSE doors. Also, for the few thousand who are "current", the names of those folks are not the same; it's an everchanging number of faces. In reality, it's really a relative few folks who are what I call the diehard students.
Thank you all for responding, I read this forum regularly and unfortunately the more I read the more it confirms my belief that RSE is a cult. As Eyeswideopen correctly said, I feel I have a better understanding of RSE than my partner does and it's quite a difficult position to be in. I am one of those people who totally live my life to the fullest extent, bit of a hedonist really therefore my partner has no choice but to get off the computer sometimes and live! I know he has a lot of conflict with goals he set himself years ago to achieve that haven't happened (RSE related goals), he is determined to ascend in this lifetime - I hope I don't offend anyone but it's total nonsense to me. We are in Australia and he has only been over to Yelm for a couple of events before we met (more than 2 years ago) so he doesn't regularly attend the school but completely believes 100% in the teachings. Wants to put food away for instance (which I told him was rubbish I don't want to live with a doomsday attitude, he can put food away for himself but I'm not going to be part of such negativity)talks about Prozac being good, although is someone totally against drugs.
Prozac is a good example of the contridactory nature of the teachings to me, my understanding is that the teachings are similar in this regard to my own belief, that happiness only comes from within, you can be happy in any situation its up to you. But prozac creates artificial happiness, you shouldn't need it if you can create happiness within for yourself.
I can see a lot heaviness in my partner due to the burden he has placed on himself to achieve certain things he believes he can from the RSE teachings. Eternal youth, ascendancy etc. My philiosopy is to live this life as fully and with as much happiness as possible, it seems a waste of time to put energy into futile pursuits.
Anyway I have probably said enough, I want you all to know how wonderful this forum is for me, to know that there are warm intelligent people out there who were also sucked into the JZ/Ramtha cult but have come out the other side and are moving on with their lives.
Do a google search on the dangers of prozac. This drug can be a killer. Besides a lot of annoying not too serious symptoms, in some people it causes psychotic episodes, suicidal and murderous feelings, etc.
There are many cases of people on prozac and related drugs like Zoloft, etc. which have been responsible for for several high profile murder suicide cases. You'll find plenty to read about it if you do the google search and I would strongly suggest your boyfriend read those reports.
It's fine to have a spiritual teacher if one feels they can benefit from that but it's never wise to deny your own feelings or intuition and defer to anyone no matter who they say they are. Unfortunately, many do and that's what creates cults - not necessarily the teachers, but students who negate their own wisdom either out of insecurity or fear.
Bodhi, I am aware of the dangers of Prozac but its no good me telling my boyfriend to read other information, he believes Ramtha is the greatest source of information he has ever found. If I present another point of view he will always have an answer as to why it's not correct and Ramtha's is. I am sure all of you ex-Ramsters did exactly the same thing when presented with information contradictory to your belief system. Anyone in a cult is programmed to respond in a particular way to reinforce their belief system, its the only way they can continue to justify the nonsense they are spouting.
I don't believe that Ramtha or other followers are necessarily programmed to be cultish. I think people themselves do that. Many, like myself, went to a few workshops with Ramtha and left. For myself, I didn't continue because I didn't feel a heart connection, even though I had some very interesting experiences doing C&E.
I think people who believe in a way that is considered cultish, would probably be the same way no matter what religion or movement they align themselves with. We certainly see that in the world now in the major religions.
I've always been a rebel of sorts, arguing with my religious teachers as a child and never taking anything at face value if my own instincts or logic told me differently.
If there was brain washing then all who attend would be affected and that isn't the case.
All you can do is gather the info on Prozac and put it before him, in a loving manner; and it's his choice what to do with it. That's all you can do. If he refutes it, then you've done what you can and you just have to hope that he eventually loves himself enough to want to be in charge of his own destiny.
"Was there anything anyone could have said to me that would have made me question the teachings?"
Hmmmm, not really. The teachings are very cleverly presented and sytematically train the student to think ever more narrowly. It is all justified as necessary in order to become enlightened.
I had to see for myself FIRSTHAND that JZ is not the warm, funny, charming persona she pretends to be. I had to catch her myself in lies. I had to witness her greed in order to really grasp it. These personal experiences were coupled with the fact that years had passed and so many students had died, so many sincere students were struggling and my body was definately aging. Things didn't add up, not even close.
So what I would say is that your boyfriend will have to see it for himself. It might not hurt to expose him to a little education. How about watching Derren Brown together? It's very interesting and your boyfriend presumably doesn't realize he is under the influence of hypnosis and therefore should have no objection to watching it.
It would also help to remove RSE triggers from his environment. JZ/"Ramtha" always taught that it is important to surround oneself with visuals that will build neuronets in the brain. According to JZ/"Ramtha" once a neuronet is strong enough the experience will manifest. (There is no scientific basis for this. It is RSE gobble****ok.) In truth, the visuals are RSE triggers to maintain/deepen the hypnosis.
Here are some examples of symbols JZ/"Ramtha" trained us to focus on over the years:
a blue star (pentagram)
star of David (JZ/"Ramtha" calls it the Initiate star)
(It is a red triangle pointing up overlaid with a blue one pointing down.)
a blue grid pattern
a human body colored blue
blue spider webs
Shiva (a Hindu deity)
Other possible triggers could be:
anything that resembles a ram especially the horns
any photos of JZ
triangle shape (called the triad by JZ/"Ramtha" - the most sacred shape known!) (says who?????)
We spent a lot of time staring into the flame of a candle. If your boyfriend has done or does that it would be good to otherwise not have any in the environment. Another trigger.
And then there is the subliminal tape called The List. Does he play that? It features the RSE agenda.
You have commented…
“I think people who believe in a way that is considered cultish, would probably be the same way no matter what religion or movement they align themselves with.”
Are you still speaking as someone that believes in the doctrines and message of “Kuthumi” a “channeled entity” by Ruth Lynette who runs the Kuthumi School of wisdom?
I ask this because…
I find your comment rather common in those that believe they are immune to cult organizations.
He doesn't do his "disciplines" since we met really and it bothers him. Before me he had spent 3 years on his own doing his disciplines every day, remaining celibate and really getting into the teachings. As I mentioned before I'm such a total hedonist that its hard to live with me and continue that sort of lifestyle, also I have so many beliefs that my partner felt were like Ramtha's teachings that he likes my attitude. Problem for him is I question, question, question everything, which he automatically puts down as narrow minded (not at all, quite the contrary I just see it as smart). I really don't take on anyone else's teachings I just have my own knowningness that I have lived with my whole life, I have never had a desire for self exploration I am completely happy with who I am and where I am going. I have always known I am the most powerful thing in my life, I can do anything I want and I have always been happy and succesful. This is a bit hard on my boyfriend, as he has spent all his life learning and trying to expand his mind. It's interesting what you say about symbols, he has a pyramid on his desk (we work together as well as live together) and has a picture of Shiva who I am unable to look at I find so disturbing. In fact when I first met him I took the picture of his wall as I couldn't sit in the room with it, he was furious as its very important to him.
Bodhi - my boyfriend doesn't take Prozac, he was just telling me that it was actually good for you - blah blah blah. Which I found astonishing as he is so anti prescription drugs, until I realised it was coming from Ramtha. I just brought that up as contradictory but understandable, get all your members on Prozac and you'll have a happy little following.
Never heard of Ruth Lynette.
As far as brain washing, it's obvious with all the people who have left Ramtha either after a short or long terms relationship, without regret or suffering any emotional problems, that some of us are immune to whatever manipulations you feel are being used at RSE.
I'm certainly no expert in brain washing, so either there is no real brain washing going on there or some of us are immune to it.
And, Aussie girl - very glad to hear that your boyfriend is not taking Prozac!
I would recommend you to buy the "The Impersonal Life" for your boyfriend. It did the job for me, before I ever found this site. If his personality is strong, he might be slightly afraid to read it (I was), but if he is as "advanced" as he thinks he is, then the book will give him much needed advice.
This is what he needs to hear. Take from the Chapter "Mediums and Mediators"
"You, in your desire to serve Me, may have found in some teacher or leader a personality whom you think, from the many seemingly wondrous words I speak through him, is now containing Me in his heart.
In your doubts and anxiety to please Me, and in your fear of My displeasure when disobeying My Commands, you may even have gone to such teacher or leader, who possibly claimed to be a priest or priestess of the Most High, thinking to get through such My Message to you, or words of advice or help from some "Master" or "Guide" you can hold. Until finally, in sorrow and humiliation from the disillusionment of which eventually and inevitably follows, you once more are thrown back upon yourself, upon the Teacher within, upon Me, your own True Self.
Yes, all the deception, all the discipline, all the taking of your ardor and devotion -- not to speak of your money and services -- to what you believe to be My Work, and selfishly purloining and utilizing them for the upbuilding and strengthening of their own personal power and prestige among their followers; feeding each of you with just enough subtle flattery and promises of spiritual advancement, together with clever sophistry under the guise of high and beautiful sounding spiritual teaching, to keep you bound to them so you would continue to support and honor and glorify them, ever holding over you the lash of My displeasure if they receive not unquestioning trust and obedience, -- yes, all this I permit to be, for it is what you desire and seek, and Desire is truly the agent of My Will.
You may be even giving to some other teacher, -- either in the seen or the unseen and no matter how true, well-meaning and spiritually wise, -- who you think cannot be classed with the kind just mentioned, your unquestioning love, devotion and obedience, and you may be receiving what you think are teachings and guidance of inestimable value.
All this is well, so long as you are receiving that which you seek and think you need; for I supply all things to satisfy such desires. But know that all such is vain and unproductive of the real results sought; for all seeking and all desire for spiritual attainment is of the personality and therefore selfish, and leads only to final disappointment, disillusionment and humiliation."
Concerning brainwashing, mind control and hypnosis, it is not an "all or nothing" circumstance. Each person is unique and responds to suggestion in varying degrees. Some are far more susceptible and responsive than others. Some people are not hypnotizable at all.
It is not possible to measure to what degree someone has been affected by hypnosis and suggestion. One can observe external behavior for clues but that does not necessarily reveal the internal processes.
What makes mind control insidious is the fact that a person lacks awareness of the process. With all due respect, Bodhi, you don't know whether you were affected. But you "think" that you weren't. That is EXACTLY how it is intended to work.
One can assume that if there were brain washing going one of the purposes would be to make us keep coming back or feel bad if we left; but that certainly isn't the case with me or others.
Kind of implying that because one has no symptoms of being brain washed is indicative of one being brain washed is an unbelievable and illogical stretch.
All religions and all movements have a point of view and push their agenda; but taking that to the extreme of real brain washing, as opposed to just strongly pushing their agenda, their beliefs, is also another big stretch.
There are Muslims who will never be terrorists, born again Christians who will never kill abortion doctors, and new agers who will leave their channeled teachers when it is time and be grateful for what they learned and take the good and use that to evolve and leave what didn't resonate.
I liken that to those who get divorced and can recognize the good along with the bad, give credit for the good, but realize that they no longer need or want to continue that relationship. Those people have freed themselves to get on with their lives in joy and power without holding on to the old baggage of what no longer works for them.
In 1993 JZ/"Ramtha" presented Shiva as "destroyer of the imperfect, creator of the new." JZ/"Ramtha" taught that if we focus on the image of Shiva we can access that power and use our minds to destroy something we don't want.
Shiva is "Lord of the Blue Realm" where (according to JZ/"Ramtha" in 1993) all healing takes place. Back then we spent a lot of time focusing on Shiva in order to convince ourselves that we, too are "destroyers of the imperfect and creator of the new."
ye bodhi.not all ramsters r rapists.not all ramsters r thiefs.i never heared ramtha saying its ok to leave.you learned enough go out in the world and spread the word.afterall this board is proof that you cant fool all people all the time.you know the story of the gordic knod and alexander?everybody tryed to unravel it untill he came and just chopped it through.the good?resistence let you grow.or what dosent kill you makes you harder?for shure you have to pai for the goods.yes there is hypnosis and brainwashing going on.you better use your brain and see all side of the story.
Ex, that's just my point. Even though Ramtha doesn't say you've learned enough, it's time to leave, many have left when they felt it was time. No one held them down and made them stay. No one ever called me and said "you're making a mistake", or "you should come back", etc. etc.
And you know, another way of looking at it, is that just perhaps events are orchestrated to make people leave; and perhaps as some have stated, that is why beginners are treated gently and the advanced students are hit with a lot of outrageous stuff. It could just be a tactic to get people to move on.
I guess when we all pass this plane we'll find out the real story.
I don't want to hijack Aussiegirl's thread, but to very briefly answer your question about Dr. Joe, he is still running his chiropractic practice. He also travels a lot, speaking across the country to promote the book that R/JZ nagged him (in front of the RSE student body) to write, Evolve Your Brain. It is doing very well on Amazon.com.
You posted on Apr 15, 07 with the statement….
The Channeled Kuthumi message is a better way to heal,
I respectfully ask you again…
Are you still speaking as someone who believes in the doctrines and message of “Kuthumi”?
I don't study with that entity nor do I know his channel.
I get a lot of channeled messages through some lists I belong to and I often share those messages if they resonate to me.
Hope that answers your question.
Thanks for the info OneHand. Sorry if this was the wrong thread to mention the teachers. But the teachers and the science were things I clung to as I saw red flags in other areas. These educated people believed in Ramtha. And I couldn't be told by others that I was wrong; I had to realise it on my own.
And even then I sometimes felt I had to defend my beliefs because it was hard to admit how wrong I had been. I see that here on the site as well. People claiming, "oh no not me, I walked away on my own with good knowledge and wasn't hurt. I wasn't brainwashed." That's just denial because facing the truth is so hard. And, how could any of it have been good when it was mostly a pack of lies. I realise now that there was nothing spiritual about RSE but I was pulled in by what I initially thought was a spiritual message. I became spiritually proud, because I knew more than others. That is one of the ways that RSE markets itself. And listening again to Greg Simmons in his sly way aaying things like, "well if you have to ask that question, you are just not very evolved." I just had to see myself as right and evolved and on the right path. I was deluded.
So, I do wonder about why the teachers of RSE carry on, either they do believe it all or they are brainwashed and it would be even harder for them to admit it because they would feel they had led many others astray - they would feel guilty, wouldn't they?
And to finish what I started to say above, if those teachers are not brainwashed too - they are also in it for the money and are as bad and dishonest as JZ Knight.
re brainwashing, hypnotized, resonated, etc.
I've been studying this area of influence and human manipulation since 1980 and I stopped counting how many "cult" members talked to me for hours to many days and cut short their cult affiliation as a result of information I shared. well over 500.... I'm still not clear on what "brainwashing" is and I know less about how hypnosis works to affect the brain ewben tho I've attended a dozen conferences on this stuff and read and heard the experts. What I do know is that cult leaders succeed because they attract members who are willing to comply with certain behaviors, the primary ones being:
1. Showing up
2. Paying fees
3. Showing up again
Whether you were hypnotized, hypnotizable, or brainwashed is moot---you were there, you showed up, and you paid something. And you convinced yourself that you were getting something good out of it. Cult leaders (like stage hypnotists that entertain) do not care if you were in a trance. They want compliance. Maybe some folks in the cult access altered states easier than others, but I found that that has nothing to do with how long they stay in. As long as the person is compliant to some degree (sitting there as a quasi-believer), you are technically just as "brainwashed" as the bliss bunny next to you listening to the guru.
I've met and exited people who were quite rebellious and "independent" while in a group for years, yet they stayed until they shared information with an exit counselor. Why?
Most of us who were in New Age cults were either street wise and had high IQs or higher than average levels of education or all of the above.
Brainwashing begins with saying to yourself: "I am not a stupid person and I do not do stupid things" when you show up at an RSE event. Brainwashing continues when you say to yourself: "I will know when it is not true and time to leave."
As long as you do not have convincing information that the group is some kind of a hoax or that the leader's connection to "truth" is highly flawed, you will find no or little reason to break away. You are intelligent enough to find something that will continue to "resonate" with or justify your needs to stay at any time. Cult members do not need to be 100% convinced----10% can be enough to keep one showing up and paying more money for a lifetime.
You cannot make a reality based choice about a group or cult until you have the reality based information to ponder and test----and you must be willing to entertain that information openly.
As some have mentioned, most people leave RSE after one visit, and most others leave after some years.
The few continue to justify their affiliation for life.
I hope this helps Aussiegirl understand her mate's situation better.
Bodhi stated: "And you know, another way of looking at it, is that just perhaps events are orchestrated to make people leave; and perhaps as some have stated, that is why beginners are treated gently and the advanced students are hit with a lot of outrageous stuff. It could just be a tactic to get people to move on."
This is another way to indicate the power of totalism, which is one of the hallmarks of harmful cults. All or nothing indicators sprinkled throughout the doctrine and group noise. Once a personh is "hooked" into such a system, there is little moderation. R J Lifton called this "idealogical totalism" or the highly charged meeting of immoderate ideology with equally immoderate desire to attain that ideal.
to read Lifton's "eight themes" for totalist milieus
One common theme among totalist cults is to predict or tease members with endtimes scenarios. People will pay more and more quickly if they think that the "promises" of the group may not be available "in the near future."
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this discussion. You should all know that your existense on this forum is of enormous support to people like me. My partner would say that I am only finding what I am looking for (negativity about RSE) but I disagree, it has always been so clear to me that JZ is a fraud. And it's heartbreaking for me sometimes that my partner, who is such an intelligent man in every other way, is fooled by this woman.
Johnny - would you believe I actually ordered "The Impersonal Life" last week, I am hoping this book will resonate with him. He is very open to new ideas and would accept anything I asked him to look at so I hope it turns on a little light somewhere even if it doesn't completely wake him up.
My boyfriend has no knowledge of this forum as far as I know, and a lot of ramsters wouldn't look for it as they don't want any doubts they might have to be confirmed. However I have mentioned to him on occassion that Ramtha's teachings could all be found elsewhere, this is something he does not believe. His faith in Ramtha is due to the fact that noone else has given him this information before. I said I could tell him where it could all have been found before Ramtha talked about it but he is convinced that he could give me information that I couldn't find elsewhere. So this might be a bit of a challenge to you all if I take him up on it, I will have to rely on you guys to help me - hope you are all up to the challenge too!
A challenge? Bring it on, Aussiegirl. I'll get my notes out. YeHaw
In some situations your boyfriend is right - he could have only gotten the information from JZ/R because she made it up .
You will be up against Judith’s hierarchy of secrecy,
he will sincerely believe he has sacred knowledge..not to be revealed to the common man, his silence is also cemented by The RSE Conditions of Participation Document.
”RSE gag order” Link…
Should he get over his delusional fear he will be brought down by “Ramtha”
he will have to face the unthinkable that he “ and everyone else” have been and are being deceived and betrayed….this is meltdown territory.
Most “Masters” find it easier to stay within Judith’s RSE fantasy world
than to wake up… and climb out of the RSE ditch.
We are here for you both..
Once again thanks for your replies, what a great bunch of people you are. David I don't believe my partner has signed anything, he has only been to beginner's events and nothing in the past two years although I may be wrong, he has certainly never seen some of the things that are discussed on this forum. We are in Australia so it's not so easy to keep up the number of events that are necessary to move up the ranks. I'm hoping he won't attend the event here in Australia in July, although sometimes my opposition to RSE has the opposite effect of what I intend, I really have to keep calm about it all and not get into arguments. They only lead to my boyfriend defending the school and his beliefs more strongly. I wish I could accept his belief in Ramtha and the teachings the way I accepted my ex-husbands belief in Islam, both beliefs systems are completely alien to my own but its hard for me not to totally ridicule RSE, I'm just waiting for Ramtha to hand out the kool aid!
Aussiegirl, I think the more you respect and allow your boyfriend the more he will open up to you. You said he is an intelligent man. Let him know that that is how you see him.
I have been an RSE student and I can tell you that I would open up more to a discussion and critical thinking regarding the teachings at RSE with a person that I thought was sincerely trying to understand where I was coming from and not someone that thought they knew better or needed to save me.
I think that is the "problem" with highly intelligent people. They can easily recognize a patronizing attitude and this tends to put an end to all discussion.
There is something that he knows and that is why he goes to school. There is something that you know and that is why you do not. Why not acknowledge the value that he sees in going to school and then explain to him what you know.
Maybe a good way to do this would be for you to attend a beginner's event with him. Let him know what you like about the school and what makes you uncomfortable. This way he will begin to see that there are people outside the school that do recognize truth and that he doesn't have to be a part of an organization to fulfill his thirst for knowledge and truth. You may also learn something that you didn't know in the process.
JG very wise words, and ones I try to follow as it has been clear to my partner that I have ridiculed the school and his beliefs (without really intending to). I know how hurtful it is to him and do really try to be open minded and not fearful of the school. I did say to him I would attend an event but he doesn't believe I would be open minded and accepting (and he is probably right, I think JZ is a bit of a freak)I'm worried that if I go it will make it more ridiculous to me than it already is. I do have a real blockage when it comes to Ramtha and JZ, I will listen to my partner discuss many things that I don't believe or agree with but as soon as it is linked to Ramtha I just shut down. I would really like to be more openminded about the school but find it almost impossible. In other respects I think my partner has a fascinating mind and is a mature and loving person determined to be the best he can be and for us to have the best relationship we can.
Just getting back to attending an event, would it be possible for me to do this with a straight face, anything I have seen on JZ and Ramtha on tape (and its not much)is ridiculous to me. I have never been part of a religious group or any sort of organised belief system where people get together, I have never wanted to seek information outside myself at all. As I mentioned before I do just like to live my life as fully and happily as possible and have never felt a desire to search for anything beyond that.
All the best to you aussie girl- it is wonderful that you care enough to investigate!
Just an idea in reverse psychology- When you get the book, Impersonal Life- Read it yourself, and then share with your partner that you are loving this new book... maybe he will want to read it with you? Then that can spur conversation.
I know for myself, while I was "in" I loved the teachings SO MUCH - if I had someone telling me differently, I would have dismissed it as "they just don't understand". When family members told me, "All your money is disappearing because of all those seminars you keep going to" I got mad. "those expensive seminars, and all the books/cds/ and other Ramster Supplies were the greatest joy in life and if anyone tried to steer me away from it, I resented it. In my mind it was the best way I could spend my money- on my evolution- and soon money would have no value anyway!...
Like others on this site, I had to SEE it for myself. I NEVER would have thought I was brainwashed, or mind controlled or in any cult. I just thought I was one of the luckiest people in the world to be included in one of the most unique and advanced schools on the planet. I was privy to information and techniques that would take me further than most people ever even dare to imagine. I was filled with gratitude for the priviledge to give my money away so I could believe I was superior... it sounds absolutely rediculous now.
One thing that helped me was seeing how easily and unconsciously we can be manipulated into believing total crap. I have become quite a fan of Derren Brown on Youtube. He is a master of NLP and hypnosis, mind control and has a show in the UK demonstrating how we are ALL suseptable to this stuff. I have seen him hypnotize a man into not being able to see things (Derren himself became invisible to him) a woman change her view of color, red is now black- people thinking they want something that Derren "set them up to want" BMX Bike video. -He has one clip where he used NLP on 2 NLP marketing guys, and they were stunned as the trick they pull on consumers was pulled on them. This is fun to watch, so again, you can just show him some cool video clips you found, without necessarily making mention of it in relation to R-as a cult- just plant the seed that this can be done. If you are asking for opinions from us- my humble opinion is to Give him lots of opportunity to put the information together himself, on his own, rather than telling him and setting it up for resistance and defense.
I think living in Australia is a great advantage. I do not know- but I believe it is easier for those persons who did not move to Yelm, who still have lives in other parts of the world, whose entire life does not revolve around the school, other masters and the whole submersion into doctrines. You said your boyfriend is not doing the disciplines regularly- my guess is- if you find other things to replace the discipines with- other activities, other books, and your solid thinking example of a life, and your love- perhaps he will find happiness and the need for R will just drop away? I hope so. All the best to you!
Discernment Now - all the things you say ring true for my partner, he believes everything exactly as you put it so succinctly in your post. I know that arguing with him is the wrong way to go about it, and the best way is to present him with material that he finds interesting but opens up other possibilities. I showed him the Derren Brown stuff on youtube a couple of weeks ago and he was fascinated but obviously didn't relate it to his experience with the school, these things take time. I love him very much, he is the most wonderful man I have ever met and it is a big lesson in tolerance for me to accept his beliefs when they seem so "out there". I did think I should read the book first and then discuss it with him, he would be pleased that I was reading something other than trashy novels!
You are correct about living in Australia, as I mentioned my partner hasn't been to a retreat in over 2 years since I met him. And it isn't his whole life, thank goodness, I don't think we could be together if he was totally immersed in the school.
Thanks for your wise words, your experience and those of other posters in this forum are very helpful.
This is has been my exereince:
as far as your original question would i have listened? Most likely not.
I was so entrenched in that belief system, I would have argued Ramtha's point til ascension day.
If it had not been for my inolvement with another hobby/friends, that I took up a year and a half ago, I would still be sitting on the fence at RSE, bored that I was not learning anything new.
My best friend, over the last year and a half, has been here for me, kindly,gently nudging to travel, go and exerience the "outside" world.
I went to a gathering of these people with this new activity, and to my amazement, they were kinder, and more nice than the people I had encountered at RSE.
I have flown to more states and cities in the past year than I have in the last 18 years (due to the scare tactics of the 'Days to come' ).
If it had not been for my dear friend , who had never been exposed to RSE, I would still be lost.
She has watched my personality change from what the book, Take Back Your Life,sais: from the "cult personality" to the "pre-cult personality".
In there, they state , it takes about 1-2 years for the transition, IF one has dealt with the fact that they have been in a cohersive persuasive group. If they have not realized it, or are denying it, it can take years.
He is luckier than most at RSE because RSE students and most cults, cut off ties with those not involved with the same mindset.
And it is my opinion, you are lucky you live away from Yelm. It is like living in a strangle-hold being so close to the
"hub of the wheel."
Be your kind, open-minded self. Your boyfriend will thank you for you being you when he finally gets to the stage of acceptance.
Thanks Tree, I was hoping to hear from you. I think its a bit of a battle for my partner holding on to the teachings and being with me. He lives with me and my two girls now and we are a loud full of life house, even though he has his own retreat in the house he hasn't done any of his disciplines since he moved in a year ago (breathing etc). Having said that, he is still fully immersed in the teachings and I believe that until he can see that I respect his beliefs (even if I don't agree with them)he won't take anything I say in relation to RSE seriously. This is my challenge to be open minded and accepting and not roll my eyes whenever anything associated with Ramtha is mentioned.
I wondered Tree, and you may have mentioned this before, do you still believe in any of the teachings? Do you still believe that JZ channelled an entity called Ramtha?
I had made a post that I later asked to be removed, but I think I shall address it now, here.
Due to an amazing timing of events, I had the pleasure to work with one of the best exit counselors in the nation: Joe Sz
He methodically showed me book by book, video by video, last interviews of exit counselling sessions-he SCIENTIFICALLY showed me, that RSE is definitely a persuasive coersive group.
The timing also included being filmed by an LA Documentary team who were totally , totally awesome, kind people.
So I allowed every aspect (they followed my EVERYWHERE, except to the bathroom
) during my whole sessions.
They got to see every, "oh my God!!" to
tears, to hysterical laughter at one exit interviewees perception of field work the night 500 people vs 500 people were told to line up, put your blinders on and run, full force, because , "R" said, we were fearful, and let the carnage fall where it may.
After Joe left, the crew came back for an interview with me and asked me point blank,"do you believe in channeling of any sort now?"
I answered,quite emphatically, "hell NO!!"
Upon meeting several Ramsters on the street and hearing about all the Days to Come, it is all I can do from bursting out laughing at how absurd this all is.
I think one of the "aha" points for me during filming, was the absolute disbelief on the faces of the camera guy and one of the producers that we actually had to each build our own Underground.
I realized then, that this was very "un"normal. Something was quite amiss.
My critical thinking capacity had been severely altered.
For me, first, it was the encouragement of a non RSE student for me to get out of the little town, just for a fun night or two out.
Then, It was the introduction of the EMF site. I surmized I was not the only one feeling confused, bored and bewildered.
Three, it was then through hours of Googling about the topics here, then the methodical approach by Joe.
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER.
And I am not just talking about a recommended book list either!
On a side note, I have been out for over a year (due to what I thought was just needing a break), but I also noted, I only when to my "required" events the last 2 years...
I actually just went to one or two nights and skipped out on the rest because I was bored of the redundancy.
In hindsight, I believe I had just been avoiding dealing with the whole issue the past year. And as I stated, timing is everything, and when someone mentioned, AFTER I had asked , "why are you not in school?" They gave me the EMF site.
I think a person has to be "ready"to ask, and then listen. I think one day, it just clicks. But then again, I am a big proponent of changing when I feel it is time to, and I don't go about it half assed.
I think the list of resources someone mentioned above ( Including Take Back Your Life) are almost, tongue in cheek here, 'required' reading for exiting.
I hope this has been of help.
Just be the person you know you are Aussie
Girl. It is your best attribute.
to answer the question of "do I believe in the teachings of Ramtha?" Yes and no.
Yes, they can be found everywhere.
But no, they are not "of Ramtha".
The teachings that she teaches can be found everywhere. Just like the movie,
The Secret. There is no fng secret. They are making money on the same thing JZ is:
old Madame Blavatsky stuff, which is just stolen ANYWAY.
All hearsay, all non-documented.
But people want to believe.
So, where is the documentation for walking on water?
Tree - thanks again. It is hard not to laugh when my partner talks about buying up food and seeds. I told him not to bother for myself and my daughters we would continue shopping for our food!
Yo Tree, say what? No documentation for walking on water?. Eat this:
This is what ex ramsters are capable of once they break free from JZ's control:
A votre chante,
Comte St. German
I agree with what you said about showing your partner that you respect his beliefs. ("Having said that, he is still fully immersed in the teachings and I believe that until he can see that I respect his beliefs (even if I don't agree with them)he won't take anything I say in relation to RSE seriously. This is my challenge to be open minded and accepting and not roll my eyes whenever anything associated with Ramtha is mentioned."
Perhaps you could use the issue of storing food and water to help keep the lines of communication open and give him a demonstration of non-cult thinking. You could agree that storing a reasonable amount of food and water makes sense, but that RSE hasn't provided any evidence to show the need to store 10 year's worth.
As someone who was very much in the RSE teachings when the Days to Come material first came out in the late 1980s, but have now been out of the teachings since 1990, I feel it makes sense to have some food and water stored. Why? My answers are from the perspective of an American:
Most of our food and water (I live near Yelm) are transported by truck to our grocery stores. In our part of the country, a lot of things could disrupt those trucks getting through--earthquake, volcanic eruption, major windstorm, snowstorm, ice storm, electric power grid going down, terrorist attack, major chemical or fuel spill due to highway accident, etc. Twice in the past 15 years I've had to get by without electricity for a full week due to Mother Nature, and that meant using stored food and water.
This country has also gone through depressions and recessions when many people lost their jobs, and a lot of people would only have to miss a few paychecks to be in serious financial difficulty. Even in "good times" there are seniors who don't receive enough money from our Social Security system to live on, and we're hearing that Social Security may run out of money by the time we Baby Boomers are ready to start collecting it, unless the government cuts back benefits even further. So if I didn't lose my own income, I might want some extra food to help out a relative, friend, or neighbor.
Animals store food to get them through the winter; Native Americans and our pioneers did the same. Now the U.S. government at all levels is urging American citizens to have at least 3 days to a week's worth of emergency food and water--I've gotten flyers to this effect in my mailbox from local and state authorities.
Just as a point of interest, I started thinking about storing some food and water before I ever heard of Ramtha. About 25 years ago I became friends with a woman who grew up in Alaska. She told me how Alaskans keep little cabins way out in the woods that are stocked with emergency food and other supplies. They are for anyone who needs them. People follow an honor system, taking what they need, and re-stocking them later when they can. She also said that nobody raised in Alaska would drive in winter without keeping extra food, water, warm clothes, sleeping bag, etc. in their vehicle.
So maybe you could meet your partner somewhere in the middle on this issue--and that might be an opening for you to show him there is a middle ground on other issues, too.
Just meant to be a helpful suggestion...
Hi Aussiegirl. I haven't posted for several weeks as I've been decluttering my life to get ready to move back to Texas. I just read your 1st post on this thread & wanted to answer you from my experiences. I was in for 10 years, 1989-1999, so I saw most of the stuff that's happened, except the physical abuse & severe profanity. In all honesty, there's nothing you can do now to open him up. He's already too programmed to do anything at this point. Just the fact that he's feeling guilt & probably like a failure because he hasn't achieved his goals is a demonstration of the effects of the programming. This is what is projected to students. I know as this is what I went through for many years. It's only the last 6 months- 1yr. that I've been able to stop mentally chastising myself with guilt because I couldn't live up to those expectations, & I've been out for 7yrs. I'm really sorry for what you may be experiencing in being part of his life RSE experience. I'm sorry for what my family experienced because of this. The only way I was able to open my mind again was when my life fell totally apart 2 years after I left RSE. I literally had a mental/emotional/physical breakdown & asked for counseling help. I was so ill physically because I was in such fear at having no control over my life & was unable to make anything work financially. In hindsight, it was probably my Soul that did this so I could begin to get on the inner true path again. I've just started to reconnect with my family in a loving way, & they are helping me to get back there & support me during my healing process. I'm grateful that they didn't give up on me & have continued to love me. Most likely your partner won't be able to open till his life falls apart. Hopefully he'll start to question it before that happens. For me the walls didn't start to crumble till I spoke with the 1st counselor at my 1st session when she asked me if there was any abuse there. When I heard myself say "yes, there was mental/emotional abuse" was when the 1st crack occurred. I knew what abuse was as I had my share of it from physicians I worked with in the operating room. It wasn't till 4 years later when I was using a new "energy psychology" technique, called PSYCH-K, to disconnect from the thoughtforms of RSE & rewire something I chose that the walls completely crumbled. 24 hours after that session I saw the entire picture. I literally went ballistic for 48 hours. For 2 days I literally mentally chewed JZ/R a new opening in her physical form. I screamed & ranted & raved at JZ/R whenever I thought of her during that period. I think I would have physically attacked her at that point if she had been physically available to me, I was that angry. And for me that would be a first, as I despise physical violence. That was how it was for me when the walls totally crumbled. It is different for each person. It will be according to whatever is within them to express. I can only say that I was glad that my family is there to help me pick up the pieces. I'm glad that I wasn't living with them for most of this, as I didn't realize till only 6-8 weeks ago how mentally ill I've been. That came as a clear insight after I came out of a self-hypnosis session to change my programming to being worthy & deserving of kind, loving, supportive people in my life. (It's not the hypnosis that's the problem. It's just a tool, just like electricity. It's how we use the tool that gives its connotations. Do we use tools for improving & making better or to destroy?) Whether you stay with him or leave for a while, the best thing is for someone to love him enough to help him pick up the pieces of Humpty Dumpty after he's fallen apart. I send you & him kindness & strength. M.
Onehandontheelephant - thanks for your insight, a lot of what you say is just the sort of thing my partner says, talking about the depression etc. But to be honest I only expect good things to happen for me and in my 44 years to date thats pretty much all I've had. I just don't live in an environment that I feel necessitates squirreling food away, with regards to the advise of your government, its a government that wants its citizens to live in fear. I'm not sure how aware Amercians are of that but from the point of view of the rest of the world it's pretty obvious. I do appreciate your point of view though and can understand in the circumstances you live where food and water has to be brought in that you would have different needs.
M - thanks for your information. I guess I didn't expect anyone to have a magical answer for me, love, patience and respect is probably what will help the most.
About whether the RSE teachers are programmed -- I am aware of at least one who would say that if you go into the marines you would expect such treatment, that you made the choice. This type of thinking is used to "justify" the abuse that goes on, at least in their minds. As far as I'm concerned, they are just as much programmed, if not more. M.
yes Comte, I have "eaten" that before.
and M McMillan....our prayers go out to you and your path.
I can across this information and thought it may be helpful.
Do Cults Produce Mental Disorders?
by Mark Dunlop
Cults promote a belief system which is utopian/idealistic, and also dualistic and bi-polar in nature. Dualistic in that they see the world in terms of two opposite poles, such as good versus evil, the saved and the fallen, the enlightened and the ignorant, etc.
Cult belief systems are also bi-polar in psychological terms, rather like Bi-polar disorder or manic-depression. Cults promote a vision of an ideal 'new self', which members believe they can attain by following the cult teachings. Cult belief systems encourage the aspirant to identify with this imagined ideal new self, and then, from the perspective of this new self, to see their old self as comparatively inferior and flawed. It is ego-utopia or hubris for the new self, and ego-dystonia or shame for the old self.
Believers can experience a sort of religious mania of inspiration, when they are in the hubris phase, identifying with this idealised imaginary new self, with its perfect perception and understanding, etc. They can become addicted to this hubris high, and become dependent on the group and its leadership to validate their spiritual progress and to maintain this inspiration.
There is often a sort of collective arrogance or hubris among established cult members. They see themselves as part of an elite, and look down rather sniffily upon the mores and values of established mainstream institutions.
If members fall out of favour, even temporarily, with the group leadership, or if they begin to doubt if they can achieve the group's ideals, they may experience a sort of religious depression or guilt, over their seeming inability to free themselves from their 'old self', with all its bad habits and weaknesses and lack of faith. This depression reinforces their desire to return to the inspired state, and can reinforce their addiction to the utopian vision of the cult belief system, so there can be a feedback system going on too.
At an extreme, believers fear they will become ill or fall into hell if they leave the group.
All this goes on within a cult members mind. A cult does not control its members by using external coercion. It is the belief system itself which is the primary active agent in cult mind control. The actual controlling of mind is done by the person themselves, as they attempt to discipline their mind and reform their personality, in accordance with the tenets of their new belief system. Effectively, a cult, via its belief system, uses a person's own energy and aspirations against them.
Of course, ordinary society can be a bit bi-polar as well, with its pressure to be successful, with perfect hair, lifestyle, etc.
It sounds like your girlfriend might have some pre-existing issues with self-esteem (don't we all ;) A cult can play on both her anxieties and her aspirations at the same time. They (or their belief system) can potentially make her feel both more guilty about her 'old self' with its normal human weaknesses, and simultaneously inspire her with an imaginary idealised vision of a wonderful new self and a new life. Very bi-polar.
In general, when you talk to a cult member, it can be helpful to understand which self, either the old self with its old set of beliefs or the new self with its new set of cult beliefs, is more dominant at any particular time.
If you criticise a cult member, this may just encourage their tendency to see themselves (their old self) as flawed, and may push them further into the cult. If you criticise their church or group, the cult-member will go into cult-self mode and will see your criticisms as tending to confirm the cult's warnings about the outside world and its negative effects. A better approach may be to acknowledge and encourage a cult member's old self, without criticising or threatening the new cult self. If a cult member feels valued in themselves, and their old self does not feel devalued, then this weakens the cult's attraction for them.
David - thanks for that although just to clarify (not that it matters one way or the other) but my partner is a boyfriend not a girlfriend. Sometimes these things are important as men and women react differently to different situations and can have a different perspective because of their gender.
The information was very interesting, of course my boyfriend would vehemently deny that he has any self esteem problems but I believe that is why people look for things outside themselves to provide fulfillment answers etc. I am trying to be tolerant and respectful, personally I just do not understand what drives anyone to seek this sort of knowledge, having never had an iota of interest in any spiritual pursuit myself. What is wrong with this wonderful exciting life, this amazing human existense?
When I was attending RSE a friend of mine did present some info to me on cults. I was not upset, but had the attitude of,,,,"Ahhhh, she is a mere mortal and could not possibly understand the profound knowledge that was being imparted at RSE,,and is therefore looking at it as a cult"
However, I did read the literature, looked at the books, felt it did not apply to me in any manner whatsoever. Obviously at that time, I did not understand what makes up a cult ,,, since I could freely come and go,,,or so I thought. I thought I had my own free will intact and could leave at any time. Well actually I could, and did leave, but it was one of the most difficult choices I ever had to make.
So bottom line,,,all the cult info I was presented in the most loving and caring manner, did not have any impact on my decision making to leave RSE. The thing that most touched my heart about the offering of the cult info ,,,, was it was presented with love and without judgement.