The last time I was at the ranch was 9 years ago. I am grateful that I am going to keep alot of beautiful wisdom and I have no regrets of my time spent there.

Is Ramtha real? All I know is that my experiences were real

This is what I want to remember

I will never forget feeling so much love in a room

I will never forget the first time I caught myself not judging someone

I will never forget meeting such great people

I will never forget how a child threw herself around my neck and would not let go on a plane ride coming home from an event because I was so filled love

I will never forget learning to respect where other people where coming from

I will never forget reaching out to others that society ignores

I will never forget learning about acting out of integrity

I will never forget learning forgiveness

I will never forget his embrace, the look in his eye
and his personal words to me

I will never forget the feelng of manifesting a 2 week retreat in Yucca Valley that cost $3000.00 and I did not spend a dime, I just saw myself every night singing there

I will never never forget the runners no matter how they were sent to me

I will never forget the stories at Yucca Valley

I will never forget the Blue Women Event that changed my life forever, I was a blue child and 2 days after the event a stranger looked at me and said " May you have a thousand beautiful nights"

I will never forget getting a card and as I embraced the guard he said "Go get your second card master" I said " I will" and simply walked over to my second card and before I hit the fence something inside of me gasped at what I saw but it was not with my eyes because my blinders were on, it was from my mind and it was a feeling I could never describe

I will never forget learning how to go into the soul of another, especially my parents to understand them, forgive them and free them


I will always remember that he taught me how important loving me is and to cherish my body,my mind and to have deep compassion for me

I realized one day that I AM THE ONE THAT WAS CHOSEN TO BE WITH ME THROUGH ALL OF ETERNITY, WOW!!!!!


I find for me in healing it is healthy to keep all the beauty.

God Bless

I loved your post Beautiful Mind.

I also have no regrets about my time at RSE. Just sweet memories.

It was time to move on for me, but that doesn't mean the time I did spend there was wasted.

I, too, not only have sweet memories of my two Yucca Valley retreats in the late 1980s, but stepped out of a major, self-imposed prison or "box" at my first retreat. A few years later, I was ready to embrace my own inner teacher rather than any external one.

I am glad that my own sweet memories don't include images that more recent RSE students have of R/JZ vomiting on stage, using filthy language, slapping students, singling students/staff out for public abuse, etc., etc.

And I, too, have experienced and accomplished many things outside the bounds of "normal" reality...but most of those events occurred either before or after my years in the "teachings."

Yes, it is healthy to keep the beauty from any experience, to move on from experiences and situations that one has outgrown, and to continue to create beauty.

My Mother gave me life; helped me learn to walk and talk, feed and dress myself;
because of her I learned to read and write; and gain the skills necessary to survive and function in the world;
she introduced me to literature and art and symphonies and plays;
she provided a framework through which I could learn of God and that which is spiritual.
My Mother could have taught JZK Inc. a few tricks in manipulation, mind control, and abuse.
The woman today in a shelter, or hospital bed, or perhaps her grave values all the sweet moments and the children born with the person who has beat her one more time.
It is unequivocal to me that each of us who participated in Judy’s world learned and experienced according to our sincerity to learn. It is unequivocal to me that my years in Judy’s world brought priceless life changing gifts to me. I thank God/Life for these gifts, and myself for my willingness and openness to learn. It is unequivocal to me that the environment in which I received these gifts/learned these lessons/changed my life for the better was abusive – physically, mentally and spiritually.
To me, it is essential that we acknowledge and ‘own’ all we learned. To me it is essential – for the healing of everyone past present and future involved with JZK Inc., including Judy, - that we acknowledge the abusive environment in which we learned; the scam, the lie, the profit making business that feeds/fed on us in more ways than the supposed Beings waiting for us in ‘the light’….
If in our gratitude we deny the facts, we will be suckered again somewhere else, and leave our Brothers and Sisters in hell.

There is no question that Ramtha started out very different from what it became and is now. At the Primary Retreat 2006 Judy was stinking drunk and sat on the stage crying "as Ramtha." Hiding the face behind hands s/he said, "She only wanted to give the world hope. She only wanted to give the world hope." It was one of the most pathetic moments I have ever witnessed yet it allowed for an understanding to enter my mind.

I thought to myself, "Hmmm, she is admitting what she has done. Can't live with the lie anymore and it has gone on for such a long time. In her drunken stupor she is actually admitting that she made the whole thing up."

"She only wanted to give the world hope," meant to me that she had created a fantasy environment as a kind of training exercise and maybe it would even work! But after 30 years she sat onstage admitting that it hasn't worked.

"All she wanted was to give the world hope."

"All she wanted was to give the world hope."
So did Hitler.
Which is not to say they don't need love and compassion and understanding.
Nor does it excuse the laughter at the suckers she enjoyed with her family.

Cynical,
Great posts! I for one also believe that knowing how ones "experience", regardless as to how wonderful, exceptional, supernatural it may have felt can be manipulated to feel that way is the all important point.

For when that happens one can easily lose thier road map and get caught up in "feelings" and "experiences" and forget where they were going in the first place.

The title of this thread is "keeping the wisdom".

In my dictionary the following is the definition of Wisdom:

n.1)The power of true and right discernment; also, conformity to the course and action dictated by such discernment.
2) Good practical judgement; common sense.
3) a high degree of knowledge; learning.
4) a wise saying

Funk and Wagnalls standard desk dictionary.

IMHO Living by experience, feeling or by "ones own truth" alone has great potential to rob one of thier ability to discern which is key in gaining wisdom.

Not only that , but it is limiting in the sense that it also has great potential to rob one of thier choices. True, one may not always want to have to chose from a lot of options, but that is all the more reason to hone ones discernment.

If one simply goes by the "thats my truth, or, experience" (disregarding facts which may explain the cause of thier experience in a not so positive light)
They can (like selective memory) pick and choose when to use thier discernment (only when it is comfortable or feels good) and in so doing end up following similar paths as Cynical has already said well.

yes she deserves pitty.i saw the prisson she is caught in through her show i wouldent trade with her for all her money.but she played this version bevore to line up her army.its a good trick to show weaknes to proof the loyalaty of her diciples or find out who will turn on her.and a fact all this has devinitly a dark side.i clinged too at my good expiriencies but just to not admitt i got totaly scamed.and you older ones [no offence]wasent there not allways good and bad with the excuse to push you forward?yes i expierienced the loving ram too.but the other one was allways arRound the corner. and no scam works without a good seed.in the 5years i witnesed the way of a older getting women not the glimps of a eternal beeing.and i met some magig in my live includin judy. .

Cowboy: Primary' 06 stinking drunk, crying, hiding face, makeup dripping everywhere..'only wanted to give the world hope'..admitting treachery to all without even a word. talk about a remote view - no need for a rabbit coming out of a box ..

I was there too, cowboy. it was an astonishing confession. I did assay after that as I was really into the social consciousness/achievement thing, but that gut-wrenching evening I almost forgot till you mentioned it. I guess the Sea Biscuit thing really opened her up.. maybe too, that the Christian group wouldn't let her buy SeaBiscuit's old ranch in CA.

To Beautiful & Hope - I'm glad for the hundreds of 20+ yr ramsters - that there was some beauty & innocence, not like it is now, harsh, cruel and authoritarian. I am fascinated by old videos..2 totally different J/R personas then & now. Before R, I never witnessed such ugliness from a person in all my life. It is something only sourced by severe, child abuse.

I have 'cherry picked' a good time or two, but I know MY innocence and compassion for others created those.

The 'Hood sure did change. I will always remember me, myself & I in the tank. But, my life has always been a GREAT tank..

Beautiful Mind,
I also liked your post, and appreciate the moderators leaving it on.
I also had Many wonders occur as a result of my "participation".
And I can only wonder what if I had never gone thru the ramthaland to learn that way?
As for assessments and judgements about JZ, I have to say Ive never spent a day alone with her, or any other amount of quality time to feel like I can really Know what shes all about.
And if she inded "faked" the whole thing, I still think thats quite a feat ..all those hours of acting and lecturing, and stayng "in character"..and making her body change shape like that...gotta hand it to her, pretty unhuman stuff!
Id still like a comment from someone as to why the Courts voted in her favor against Jeffs allegations
in his suit, back in 93.
This whole turn reminds me of that movie The Man who Sold the World, where Bowies alien character ends up stuck here and all bogged down in humanities dramas.

Maybe Ramtha is losing power as we are getting ours back.
Keep graduating everyone!

"And if she indeed "faked" the whole thing, I still think thats quite a feat ..all those hours of acting and lecturing, and stayng "in character"..and making her body change shape like that...gotta hand it to her, pretty unhuman stuff!"

When I was still attending RSE, we used to use this argument to reassure ourselves. Now, hearing that JZ took acting lessons before all this began, I wonder how we ever thought that way. We've all seen stage and screen actors "stay in character" for years at a time, putting in many more hours than JZ/R ever did. We've also seen actors "play" historical figures like Mark Twain, Ben Franklin, Abe Lincoln, etc. We've seen plenty of them do it without scripts, too. Improvisational acting isn't anything new; lots of actors can "be" their characters at will, without a script. One of my current favorites is Comedy Central's Stephen Colbert, who is wickedly funny playing an ultra-conservative, right-wing, egomaniacal TV news pundit...and there's no way most of what he does is scripted.

As for "making her body change," actors do that all the time, too. When they are playing a role, they can change their posture, change how they move, make their face look youthful and animated or aged and puffy, etc. (The early Ramtha, when he would sit in a chair with the moves of a king seating himself on a throne, used to remind me a lot of Yul Brynner in "The King and I.")

(There is also the possibility that others have raised through the years, that JZ/R is a case of multiple personality. It's well-documented that when different personalities express through one body, each personality can change not only how that body looks, but can create broad physiological changes. One personality can have a dramatic allergy to a food, while another personality can eat that same food, and the body shows no signs of the allergy.)

By the way, newbies, over those decades several ex-members of JZ's inner circle, bodyguards, etc. have reported catching her being JZ one second, then doing an "oops" and entering the arena as Ramtha, without going through the "act" of JZ leaving the body so R could enter.

If R is merely a role: Considering that JZ has only had to play 1 role since the 1970s (not counting her very brief, unconvincing attempts to play Jesus), is it that surprising that she has gotten good at it? I doubt if any professional actors would be that impressed.

I remember sitting in the arena at an event while "Ramtha" was drinking with the "comrades" up at the house. After waiting for some time they turned on the sound so that we could listen to the conversation between "Ramtha" and the "comrades." Toward the end of the private drinking session "Ramtha" announced, "It's time for the show."

And then "Ramtha" came out to the arena!

I am so glad to have this site- as I relate to so much of what is said by so many posters, all representing different stages in our recovery-

the joy of fond memories at the ranch, manifesting my cards, feeling strong in my walks, meeting great people, and the joy of learning

the fear that this may not be the truth, and not wanting to look at it because I was so happy to find the "truth"

the sadness of realizing I was dooped, the shock of how easily we are manipulated to DO things and to FEEL things, and to FORGET things etc (Derren Brown videos)

Remembering the Primary puke/spit/seabisquit and thinking Oh my God, please stop! What is this? Who is this? half R half J?

To finally step out, and the sorrow of not knowing ANYYTHING, feeling lost, and lethargic, after work the only thing I have energy for is looking at this site. My life is happening, days are passing and I am doing nothing, even though opportunities are presenting themselves, I have no energy to follow through.

I long to do C&E to move myself out of this funk-but I don't do it because I am so confused. I want to keep some of it-(keeping the wisdon) but get confused about what I can keep while steering clear of the muk of it. Don't want to "slip" like an addiction- justification to go back- I was happier when I was "hynotised" - Giggle!

I had not thought of it like that before- I was never into alcohol or drugs or sex or any of the usual things people get addicted to, but can one be addicted to "FINDING A PATH TO GOD?' addicted to spirituality? to finding peace and security by pleasing God?

Can I keep the teachings and throw out the school? Most of what she taught was found somewhere else, can the teachings still be true, but the messenger a total fraud? I don't know-

but- it is true that a person with a spit personality disorder totally changes physiology when flipping between characters. I have heard one can change as drastically as having a different color eyes, one can have a disease, like diabetes and the other not- so that is quite possible. But I didn't know that with multiple personalities, the 2 "knew" each other? something to investigate.

If it is all an act- it does seem that whenever J has something she wants accepted by the masses with no lip- she has the R say it. And think about it-

That is quite the gig-

Most actors deal with the agony of trying out for roles and hoping they will get cast- negotiating contracts, leaving their home for long periods of time to live on sets, etc. All J has to do is announce a performance and the money comes rolling in.

GAG AGAIN!

What to keep and what to toss out is a great question. Because the material was presented under false pretense using subtle techniques of manipulation it is wise to be cautious. For example, without realizing it we have been programmed to respond to certain triggers and we do not know what the triggers are.

Concerning C&E, hyperventilating will create an altered state of consciousness. Particularly in a group it generates a strong arousal sensation enabling a person to feel unusually powerful and omnipotent. Yet when the C&E stops the feeling goes away. That tells us that it was not real - not grounded in reality. But it was a great fantasy while it was happening.

Ramtha taught that while doing C&E, one only needs to hold a mental picture in the mind of what one desires and it will manifest. That intense feeling of power which C&E generated made us believe that it WOULD manifest. But most stuff didn't. Mental things might -they were part of the fantasy. But the houses and vehicles and piles of gold, ect, ect, ect did not appear in the arena or elsewhere.

The truth is that C&E and any hyperventiliating technique creates a temporary state of euphoria which does not manifest reality except as a possible addiction to the state of euphoria. It's a great feeling to be blowing and blowing away and forget the body, forget reality, feel mentally free and unbounded. It is called a "high."

If a person can become dependent on drugs to feel high, if a person can become dependent on alcohol to feel high, can a person become dependent on C&E to feel high?

Maybe that is why some of us stuck around so long. Not only were we unknowingly under the influence of hypnosis but we were also addicted to a sensation high, the state of omnipotence and euphoria which was generated in the arena during C&E.

Discernment Now

I feel for you, 9 years gone and I still occassionally make a card and I do blow sometimes. I still bless others from the Lord God of my being to the Lord God of their being.

Why not keep what works for you as long as it does not hurt anyone else.

It takes courage to break away, you are rejected from the group and they say things like " You don't want it anymore" or they quote Ramtha and what he says about the ones that are gone. Very sad to go because you find yourself standing alone, very rough at times.

I am keeping what rings true in my soul and letting go of the rest. Eventually the whole truth about Ramtha and JZ will come out.

Isn't is weird to live in this beautiful world that had to be created my something pretty spectaculor but no one can get on the same page about who God is or what religion is right, on and on and on.

We do not all need the same truth or religion, we just need love, way more love.

God bless you in your healing, reach for more love, isn;t that the greatest truth?

Climbing out of the hole of deception is grueling work. The good news is that anyone who has done fieldwork or the tank has proven that they are capable of grueling work.

First one has to recover from the shock of the whole thing. This requires dealing with disbelief, anger, grief, depression and angst previously unimagined.

Then one has to rebuild shattered self esteem but using what as a tool? Because everything previously "believed in" is gone. And how could someone so naive possibly be worth anything?

The whole situation is sadder than sad yet there is nothing to do but carry on. One foot in front of the other, eyes on the horizon. We will live again.

one thing i thought i wanna share.as i said i was in 2 groups one thing was that i felt the gurus dont use their own power to make you feel good.thei take the energie of their followers mix them all up and give them out new.never watched the old followers get energeticly draind and the new ones get some good vibs for hooking them up?in india that works over pictures like a dial up conection.or a mantra or......dident you wonder about the pictures from ramtha suddenly geting sold after the cosmic man were you could fill in your own persona.also ramtha allways stated ,it is his field,never wondert when 1000people focus on wealth and only one hit the checkpot?maby i am paranoid but is their the possibility that the owner harwests what workers seeded.i wouldent do the triangel if you still blow.thats the hardwired hookup to the ranch.

Seesallsides..........

"Maybe Ramtha is losing his power as we are getting ours back".

I think your on to something here Ringo!

EWO,

"What to keep and what to toss out is a great question. Because the material was presented under false pretense using subtle techniques of manipulation it is wise to be cautious. For example, without realizing it we have been programmed to respond to certain triggers and we do not know what the triggers are."

It is a great question; perhaps it can also help if one can organize their experiences into what was the primary experience and which other ones followed.

I say this because so often one can justify and make all sorts of excuses for following teachings, doctrines, gurus, etc. by saying, "it doesn't matter to me what _______ said or did, I know how I felt and that is all that matters"

This is not always an easy point to go beyond in order to explain why it can matter greatly.

I was involved in sales since I was a teen. My dad was in the ad business for over 50 years. I was educated in the methods of persuasion from a young age.

Without going into a long story, let’s say I sold a dog to someone who came into my shop and asked the price of a certain dog. I then maneuvered and got this person to buy the dog. On top of that I sold them double the amount of the dog in supplies and accessories. All by using tried and true sales techniques which fit my agenda. Assume also that I would not sell a "bad " or sick animal. (Unlike JZ)

If I met this person 5 years down the road and asked them if they remembered me and how was their dog, chances are they would say yes, and that their dog was the best thing that ever happened to them and thank me.

How about if I then sat them down and explained point by point how I had led them into purchasing that specific dog and all the supplies (which they had not come into the store to buy originally), chances are again that they would say, "I don't care what or how you sold me my dog, he is my best friend, gives me countless hours of pleasure and is the best thing that has happened to me in years."

This is where the primary and secondary experience needs to be distinguished in my opinion.

I would proceed to explain that I would not expect them to grind up their dog and flush him down the toilet just because they were manipulated into buying him.

But I would point out that the fact I was able to manipulate them into buying the animal (that animal in particular) as well as all the supplies was their primary experience with me. That they ended up with a great dog is their secondary experience with me and since they themselves played the greater part in the upbringing of the animal they are actually deserving of the credit for having a fine animal and experience far more then me.

Why is that all important?? Because the fact that I was able to persuade them and maneuver them towards my agenda (selling animals) and RESTRICT their choices (not on their agenda when they had come in) I had in fact reduced their freedom.

By directing their attention only towards that one animal, I restricted them from considering any others in the shop, by using persuasion; I made the sale and kept them from looking in any other shop. My agenda was fulfilled. The fact that their agenda was also fulfilled was their secondary experience. The primary experience was a restriction of their choices and a restriction of their freedom.

That matters!!!

Now as I said as a rule I would not be selling an animal I would know was sick nor had some sort of problems.

Imagine now someone who studies and uses all of these techniques and then adds into the mix milieu control, mind altering disciplines, alcohol, out and out lies, rhythmic, loud sounds and fear based dependency rhetoric.

Sound like someone familiar???

It is no wonder people are left wondering how to sort out their experiences once they realize they have been taken for a ride. Perhaps by prioritizing them one might find it helpful in the sorting process.

For anyone interested in learning how to become aware of the many influences and techniques of influence so that they can learn how to guage their responses, I would higly reccomend Robert Caldini's book "Influence, the science and practice" It is and easy,and entertaining read

That’s a great analogy Journey - because you applied your skills to selling and not swindling, please permit me to add another dimension to the story to make it more directly relevant. Let’s pretend the dog in question had been abused and abandoned – you found it fed it and you intimidated and beat the dog to docility. And then told the new owners, who were looking for a friendly family pet, that the best way to train the dog was with regular beatings interspersed with treats and petting, to assure at all times that the dog knew you were master; and obeyed; … and one day the dog, who only came here to love and be loved, had one slap in the face too many and bit the hell of the child…. And the master of the dog went back to tell you and maybe even sue you for selling them a vicious dog… And you said, but you’re the one who trained it….. you created your reality.

One step to recovery is as Joe Szimhart suggested – look at the behaviors of the organization and its members, not the ideas.
The most important step to me is to be clear what your deepest sincerest intention/desire/Ideal for your life is. What is at the core of your value system. Security? Power? Wealth? Harmony? Peace? Love? Is it ok to have dual values – i.e. if it’s about making money, anything goes; otherwise, love is most important. Some people on this message board admire Judy’s wealth, her ambition and right to all the toys she wants – the 'how' she obtained her wealth is irrelevant. That’s a valid value system. For me it was the rude unloving behavior of all the so called ‘enlightened’ people at Judy’s place that raised serious questions in me. Maybe you agree that slamming latrine doors and aggressively getting out of the parking lot is the right of a true master. Decide what your values are.
Another helpful step is to go back to the sources of Judy’s Ramtha’s materials. Much of the material of the mid ‘80’s came from the Edgar Cayce Readings. (Among other qualities presented, the Cayce Readings always emphasized God first – spiritual development first, then came ‘the powers’.) For those interested in physics, study credible scientists; read the reviews of What the Bleep by people who understand physics. For those interested in the mystical – read the mystics – of whatever Sacred Tradition – Buddhist, Christian, Native American, Islam, Judaic. Study Sacred Geometry. For a contemporary spin, and true understanding of the ‘secret teachings’/Codes of the Renaissance heroes and the doorways to the Infinite, read Jean Houston - who had a Mystery School before Judy. (Interesting to note that at a Jean Houston workshop I met a woman who had also run “Mystery School” workshops – which Judy attended.) For those who can hear beyond a specific “language”, Fr. Thomas Keating has the most clean, clear, comprehensive, egoless presentation of the spiritual journey to what he refers to as the “transforming Union with the Divine”. He clearly understands and has incorporated all the Sacred Traditions, and to me presents what is at the heart essence of them all. There is a 2 set audio series called “The Contemplative Journey”. I quickly add – it is Christian in language – listen beyond it; I am not proselytizing or recommending “Centering Prayer”. What continues to stun me as I listen to the tapes is his explanations/frameworks through which to understand the process of “growing up”/maturing/becoming what so many of us hoped for – ‘enlightenement’. For me, Keating’s work incorporates the best of everything I’ve studied for the last 40 years.
It is also helpful to know that according to what is in fact your deepest desire, the Universe will provide a curriculum of learning – you’ll find a book by accident; turn on the tv to a show specific to your question; over hear a conversation; have a dream, whatever – the Universe is endlessly creative. At least it has been so for me. And – your intention, your action is essential….
Most of all – be kind and gentle with yourself. The clearer you become as to what is most important to you, the clearer will become what was garbage out of Judy’s mouth. And know you are not alone in your journey.

from JTRL's post:

"Why is that all important?? Because the fact that I was able to persuade them and maneuver them towards my agenda (selling animals) and RESTRICT their choices (not on their agenda when they had come in) I had in fact reduced their freedom.

By directing their attention only towards that one animal, I restricted them from considering any others in the shop, by using persuasion; I made the sale and kept them from looking in any other shop. My agenda was fulfilled. The fact that their agenda was also fulfilled was their secondary experience. The primary experience was a restriction of their choices and a restriction of their freedom. "

JTRL, I really enjoyed your post. What I realize for myself is the following:

1) I may have been persuaded to see a point of view but it was my free choice to accept it as my own. When the point of view didn't work for me anymore I just "gave the dog away."

2) The primary experience giver i.e. J/R/sales person may be quite pleased with their ability to persuade, but in the end, I don't hold them responsible for the decisions I made. That would be giving my power away to them.

3) Since J/R/sales person helped set up my secondary experience that was a positive experience for me, I would gladly thank them for the primary experience.

One party thinks they are in control, did the manipulation, and got away with it. The other party thinks they made a free choice and are happy with the results of their choice. Which one is delusional? I would say neither. Each is acknowledging their own power.

JTRL, I really enjoyed your post. What I realize for myself is the following:

"1) I may have been persuaded to see a point of view but it was my free choice to accept it as my own. When the point of view didn't work for me anymore I just "gave the dog away." "

Hope, thank you for your sharing of your realization.

It does not seem to me that you are acknowledging that your "free choice" was made within the context of severely limited choices. Perhaps informed choice would be a better choice of words. I would be curious to know if you felt you knew in advance that you would be lied to, filled with fear along with the empowerment, as well as all the other techniques applied in RSE if you would have still made the choice of attending.

"2) The primary experience giver i.e. J/R/sales person may be quite pleased with their ability to persuade, but in the end, I don't hold them responsible for the decisions I made. That would be giving my power away to them."

Sounds a bit to me like you are closing the proverbial barn door after the horse got out.
The power was already given away in the beginning.

"3) Since J/R/sales person helped set up my secondary experience that was a positive experience for me, I would gladly thank them for the primary experience."

Giving thanks is a showing of gratitude; would you really show gratitude towards someone who exhibited abusive behavior to you?

By the logic you are using, it appears that you could justify being robbed and beaten (primary experience) since if after that you were able to overcome being robbed and beaten and then give gratitude towards the perpetrator?

"One party thinks they are in control, did the manipulation, and got away with it. The other party thinks they made a free choice and are happy with the results of their choice. Which one is delusional? I would say neither. Each is acknowledging their own power."

You frame the question and then provide only 2 possible answers to your question and then propose another third answer "Each is acknowledging their own power." It appears you have also learned how to restrict choices and I find that similar to the continuation of abuse in families and those involved in abusive relationships as well as cultic involvement.

What is wrong begins to feel and appear right. What about acknowledging a MIS-use of power??

Hope, your nick appears to imply that you have a desire with expectation of fulfillment. I, like Prometheus would have also put that into the box which Pandora messed with.

Hope, if indeed you do have a desire WITH expectation of fulfillment how can it be that you seem to accept with gratitude that being given false expectations is acceptable??

for a taste of what a truly christed being is like, listen to Thich Naht Hahn's walking meditation:http://www.explorefaith.org/tnh/tnh_am.htmland/or anything he's written. Pema Chodron also has a clear concise way of articulating Buddhist/universal principles.

JTRL,

I guess we have had very different experiences at rse. I really don't feel that I have been robbed or abused in any way. This is because I never bought into the manipulation from day one. I really never gave my power away to JZ or Ramtha or to rse peer pressure.

I felt the school offered something that was valuable to me at the time and I took advantage of it. I did not engage anything that didn't feel right to me.

I felt the manipulation started to increase in the last few years and my visits to rse to get what I wanted out of it decreased in direct proportion.

Yes I do feel I have had free choice all along.

Hope,

I want to be clear about something. I have not attended RSE. I have been impacted by RSE through the involvement (no longer involved) of a family member. My knowledge of RSE comes from over a decade of intensive research, wich has included discussions with many current as well as ex students, low level staff and a few of the big cahunas.

I was not trying to make the analogy of being robbed to RSE though I feel that one could easily be made.

I was attempting to understand your logic in reasoning. I asked you serveral questions which if you would like to answer directly I would be interested in hearing them. Should you not wish to answer them on the board, feel free to e mail me.

If not, I will have to respectfully agree to disagree with most of your reasoning.

This is so very interesting. I too have worked in sales, and I understand how sales people guide/control the conversation toward a pre-determined result. I think the big point here is simply ETHICS-

When a sales person guides to a product- is the product safe is there a known fault to the product.

But here is the issue... None of us walked into a STORE. when we walk into a store, we expect the sales person will try to sell us something.

WE walked into a SCHOOL and expected to LEARN.

AND I DID LEARN, AND I WAS ALSO SOLD A LOT OF BELIEFS, and fears.
I did not EXPECT the school to use hypnotic techniques, peer pressure or NLP to induce me or anyone else into a state of suggestability.

THE BELIEF I BOUGHT INTO (the reason why I entered the school) was the school was helping me to get DE-PROGRAMMED FROM SOCIAL PROGRAMMING
(comercials/government lies/church ) and be more of an INDIVIDUAL, smarter, able to think for myself and make CONSCIOUS choices.

I got the opposite.

Here is the thing... it all changes when a person KNOWS they were SOLD.

Ignorance is BLISS- If I did not KNOW (realize after the fact) I had been hypnotized in group- perhaps I would still be happy there! It is just when something goes wrong- that we get miffed.


think about it... tons of people enjoy Reeces Peanut butter cups, they are delicious. A while ago, someone told me that they had found rat feces in a sample, and forever after it has been in my head, "reeces feces".

Now I loved that candy-until I found out it was full of poop!

discernmentnow, your post points out some things worth pondering.

when one is marketing to, joins up with a group (school) to learn what was promised to be taught - finds out that techniques were used without one's consent/knowledge (uninformed consent), then one might ask whether or not "undue influence" was used.

i believe that is not legal. i also believe lawrence levy (esquire) won a lawsuit against a cult, on behalf of his client (member of the cult).

Disernmentnow,

nice post!

"I think the big point here is simply ETHICS-"

I agree and in the sales world of persuasion what constitutes an ethical line is and will continue to be debated. For me it appears that our society continues down a slippery slope of false regulation and government protections in that regard.
Ex. the small print that glides across your screen in a car lease commercial or financial commercial.

Regulation puts it there (supposedly for ones protection) Yet, no matter how hard I try, I have never been able to read one completely or even 1/2 of one in the time it is shown. On top of that, quite often the print is virtually too small to read!

RSE however, does not even enter into the debate arena when it comes to ethics. After all for JZ/R anything goes. They have said so. Even if it means lying.

My point in my story was, if one can have their freedoms and choices limited in an everyday environment, think of how LIMITED one becomes in the mind control environment such as RSE!

Hello Hope,
May I refer to your comments,

"I never bought into the manipulation from day one."

"I do feel I have had free choice all along."

With all due respect, would you recognize a post hypnotic suggestion? Did you witness any at RSE? Does your knowledge and understanding of mind control enable you to have full awareness of what is occurring in your environment?

If you did not "buy into the manipulation" do you know why you returned? Or do you just "think" you know why you returned?

Hi EWO,

Thanks for your thoughtful questions.

Also, to JTRL, I will respond to your unanswered questions too - just haven't got around to it.

Yes, I do see hypnotic suggestions at RSE. I think some of the suggestions are voluntary and beneficial, in my opinion, as in "I have always been filled with vital energy" Some of the suggestions can make someone think that they need to go to the next event to be able to accomplish a particular goal. I think that suggestion is a form of manipulation but you don't have to buy into it.

I am no expert at hypnotic suggestion but I know it was often openly and humorously stated at rse that "brain washing" techniques were being used. I think there were positive uses of hypnotic suggestion and also manipulative uses. I also think some people accepted the suggestions (whether positive or negative) and others did not.

I can understand people being p-i-s-s-e-d off at the manipulation. I feel the same way. However, I don't think that everything is black and white. I believe there are shades of grey when it comes to intent and experiences. When I left rse, I left a happy person, with absolutely no regrets with the choices I made. I understand that this is not the case with everyone on this forum. I can empathize with them as I have also made some choices in my life that did ot serve me.

About going to an event, I went when I wanted to go and when I didn't, I just didn't go. There were a couple of times near the end where I went but did not feel I gained much from going. That's when I decided I was not going to go back.

Hope that helps to clarify.

Hi Hope,
I appreciated reading your response. No question that from the beginning the whole idea at RSE was/is to personally evolve into something greater. Ramtha was/is presented as a spiritual hierophant who had done just that - evolved himself from a human into a spiritual being who had mastered the forces of nature and could direct them at will - he called/calls this Christ consciousness.

Ramtha said/says that all "we" have to do is listen to him and follow his instructions. After all, he did it and is in a position to know. He further states that it is important to train one's mind to only think in specific patterns and that is where all of the "brainwashing" comes in. Many times I heard Ramtha say, "YOU NEED YOUR BRAINS WASHED!" Meaning clean out the garbage and develop a pristine consciousness. This is all overt or obvious mind control. Was it openly discussed and explained? Yes. Was I aware of it and did I choose to participate? Yes.

But I have also become aware that there is covert or hidden brainwashing occurring at RSE. Was I told about it? No. Was I aware of it? No. Did I choose to participate? How could I make a choice? I did not know it was occurring.

That is why I asked, "Did you freely choose or did you "think" you freely chose?"

I thought that I freely made a choice to participate at RSE. Yet if I had known the truth about RSE I would not have chosen to attend.

In my experience and opinion RSE is a dangerous place because what you see is not what you get. I have come to understand that there is much more going on than appears on the surface.

"In my experience and opinion RSE is a dangerous place because what you see is not what you get. I have come to understand that there is much more going on than appears on the surface. "

Here! Here!

EWO, Can you elaborate? I want to understand what you mean. ( There may be others that want to know too.)

What other kinds of manipulation are you speaking of? Also, what do you know about RSE today that would cause you to make a different decision about attending rse?

"But I have also become aware that there is covert or hidden brainwashing occurring at RSE. Was I told about it? No. Was I aware of it? No. Did I choose to participate? How could I make a choice? I did not know it was occurring."

One does not REALIZE they are being brainwashed or hynotized while it is happening. The Derron Brown NLP stuff is a great example.

But if enough information is given about the dog or product BEFORE buying it, then that would give one the broadest spectrum of choices to make an informed decision.

Tree, can you elaborate. I guess I am probably out of the loop here on a discussion from a previous thread.

I have watched many of Darren Browns stuff on youtube but I don't see the connection with rse. Can you give specific examples?

Hope..... "Can you elaborate"

This kind of statement is soooooo typical of ramsters.

"Can i have more information so I can have more pieces to the never ending puzzle"

This is the "hook" that rse uses to keep "folkies" coming back again and again. The enigma is always wrapped in a riddle for mind control purposes.

Anyone who has invested great amounts of time and effort at rse can lay claim to the above.

For those who have invested the time and do not see the obvious/unobvious are thus nothing more than FOOLS and deserve their never ending megalomania and dance with the priestess Judeye.

BEWARE OF THE HIGHWAY WOMAN ON THE EL CAMINO !

I was thinking the exact same thing about the request to "elaborate". I suspect you posted the thoughts of many, Wolfman.

Hahahaa.....yes ! Beware that El Camino !!!

I just asked a question to get clarification. I am bewildered at the last two responses.

Starting to lose all respect for this site. Can't say I wasn't warned. I am an ex-ramster and many of my ex-ramster friends had warned me about this site. They also have questions about RSE but don't feel they have any voice on this forum.

I am beginning to see how many of you really are just a bunch of whiners, victims, and people that see the glass half empty instead of half full.

My suspicion is that your attitude towards the rest of your life is not that different. Chronic victimization is a mental disorder that is really hard to break out of.

As I write this post I am getting clearer about the last two posts. Misery loves company and I am just not unhappy enough for you guys. Hence, the desperate need to insult.

Enjoy your co-dependency!

Hope,

I can speak for myself and I have a delightful life.

YOUR reaction to the posts is, in my opinion, a WHINEY over reaction if ever I saw one.

So glad you are the only one who can ask questions....

Have a nice day. I know I will.

Hope:
Mirroring techniques (hand gestures that are copied from subject to teacher, and teacher to subject- for ex at RSE: "so be it" verbally or with the gesture, or humbly bowing, toasting and 'repeat after me')-which if you search 'Modeling NLP', you will find oodles of information.

NLP is based on the idea that with our senses we are only able to percieve a small part of our world. Our view of the world is filtered by our experience, beliefs, values and assumptions.We act and feel based on our perception of the world rather than the real world. NLP teaches that language and behaviors (whether functional or dysfunctional [and as Tree, here, I will insert, that a licensed PHYSICIAN, told me in a consultation, that the Ranch is dysfunctional place to work])
are highly structured and that this structure can be modelled or copied into a reproducible form. Using NLP, a person can model the more successful parts of their own behavior in order to reproduce it in areas where they are less successful, or 'model' to another person,to effect their belief. NLP embodies several techniques, including hypnotic techniques, which proponents claim affet changes in the way people THINK, LEARN, and COMMUNICATE . ( note my post about specific verbiage each group call their "own"-key phrases, that anyone outside that group are looked upon as lesser than because they are not informed and hip with the lastest teaching, or class, whatever the form the group takes).

NLP calls each individual's perception of the world their 'map.' NLP teaches that our body-mind (neuro) and what we say (language) all interact together to form our perceptions of the world, or maps (programming). each person's map of the world determines feelings and behavior. Therefore, impoverished-and unrealistic-maps can restrict choices and result in problems.

I hope this answers your question.

Hope,

A lot of people on this site feel as if they have been burnt by JZ and RSE, in my experience they are entitled to that feeling since they bought into something which was falsely advertised and then again falsely continued.

One will have the same difficulties here as anywhere else in having their voice heard so the fact that there is some animosity should not be a surprise to you.

After all, if you were in a fire with some others and they got physically burnt and you didn't, you would not go into the hospital and rub their wounds with lemon juice would you?? You would not deny that a fire existed just because you did not get burnt, would you? You would still recognize that fire can be a dangerous thing, wouldn't you? Sure, fire can also be used to warm, temper, and many other things.

However when communicating it helps to keep the discussion in context. You wouldn't tell burn victims in the hospital how fire is used for good such as just previously mentioned would you?

Hope, regardless of your beliefs as long as you are willing to contribute to the dialogue here I welcome you even if your views are differing from mine. However part of contributing (IMHO) is to explain the how’s and whys of how you came to believe what you do. If to do so, puts you in an uncomfortable position, perhaps you might want to reconsider if the how’s and whys are important to you. They are for most on this site.

from the EMF thread subject Feb 25, 07…. SUBLIMINALS, BRAIN-WASHING, HYPNOSIS

http://pub43.bravenet.com/forum/3633497066/show/607899


Thought reform is not mysterious. It is the systematic application of psychological and social influence techniques in an organized programmatic way within a constructed and managed environments (5,7,8,9,10). The goal is to produce specific attitudinal and behavioral changes. The changes occur incrementally without its being patently visible to those undergoing the process that their attitudes and behavior are being changed a step at a time according to the plan of those directing the program.


United States v. Lee 455 U.S. 252, 257-258 (1982), the California Supreme Court found that…….
"when a person is subjected to coercive persuasion without his knowledge or consent... [he may] develop serious and sometimes irreversible physical and psychiatric disorders, up to and including schizophrenia, self-mutilation, and suicide."




THE PURPOSES AND TACTICS OF COERCIVE PERSUASION

Coercive persuasion or thought reform as it is sometimes known, is best understood as a coordinated system of graduated coercive influence and behavior control designed to deceptively and surreptitiously manipulate and influence individuals, usually in a group setting, in order for the originators of the program to profit in some way, normally financially or politically.
The essential strategy used by those operating such programs is to systematically select, sequence and coordinate numerous coercive persuasion tactics over CONTINUOUS PERIODS OF TIME. There are seven main tactic types found in various combinations in a coercive persuasion program. A coercive persuasion program can still be quite effective without the presence of ALL seven of these tactic types.

TACTIC 1. The individual is prepared for thought reform through increased suggestibility and/or "softening up," specifically through hypnotic or other suggestibility-increasing techniques such as: A. Extended audio, visual, verbal, or tactile fixation drills; B. Excessive exact repetition of routine activities; C. Decreased sleep; D. Nutritional restriction.

TACTIC 2. Using rewards and punishments, efforts are made to establish considerable control over a person's social environment, time, and sources of social support. Social isolation is promoted. Contact with family and friends is abridged, as is contact with persons who do not share group-approved attitudes. Economic and other dependence on the group is fostered. (In the forerunner to coercive persuasion, brainwashing, this was rather easy to achieve through simple imprisonment.)

TACTIC 3. Disconfirming information and nonsupporting opinions are prohibited in group communication. Rules exist about permissible topics to discuss with outsiders. Communication is highly controlled. An "in-group" language is usually constructed.

TACTIC 4. Frequent and intense attempts are made to cause a person to re-evaluate the most central aspects of his or her experience of self and prior conduct in negative ways. Efforts are designed to destabilize and undermine the subject's basic consciousness, reality awareness, world view, emotional control, and defense mechanisms as well as getting them to reinterpret their life's history, and adopt a new version of causality.

TACTIC 5. Intense and frequent attempts are made to undermine a person's confidence in himself and his judgment, creating a sense of powerlessness.

TACTIC 6. Nonphysical punishments are used such as intense humiliation, loss of privilege, social isolation, social status changes, intense guilt, anxiety, manipulation and other techniques for creating strong aversive emotional arousals, etc.

TACTIC 7. Certain secular psychological threats [force] are used or are present: That failure to adopt the approved attitude, belief, or consequent behavior will lead to severe punishment or dire consequence, (e.g. physical or mental illness, the reappearance of a prior physical illness, drug dependence, economic collapse, social failure, divorce, disintegration, failure to find a mate, etc.).
Another set of criteria has to do with defining other common elements of mind control systems. If most of Robert Jay Lifton's eight point model of thought reform is being used in a cultic organization, it is most likely a dangerous and destructive cult. These eight points follow:

Robert Jay Lifton's Eight Point Model of Thought Reform
1. ENVIRONMENT CONTROL. Limitation of many/all forms of communication with those outside the group. Books, magazines, letters and visits with friends and family are taboo. "Come out and be separate!"

2. MYSTICAL MANIPULATION. The potential convert to the group becomes convinced of the higher purpose and special calling of the
group through a profound encounter / experience, for example, through an alleged miracle or prophetic word of those in the group.

3. DEMAND FOR PURITY. An explicit goal of the group is to bring about some kind of change, whether it be on a global, social, or
personal level. "Perfection is possible if one stays with the group and is committed."

4. CULT OF CONFESSION. The unhealthy practice of self disclosure to members in the group. Often in the context of a public gathering in the group, admitting past sins and imperfections, even doubts about the group and critical thoughts about the integrity of the leaders.

5. SACRED SCIENCE. The group's perspective is absolutely true and completely adequate to explain EVERYTHING. The doctrine is not subject to amendments or question. ABSOLUTE conformity to the doctrine is required.

6. LOADED LANGUAGE. A new vocabulary emerges within the context of the group. Group members "think" within the very abstract
and narrow parameters of the group's doctrine. The terminology sufficiently stops members from thinking critically by reinforcing a "black and white" mentality. Loaded terms and clichés prejudice thinking.

7. DOCTRINE OVER PERSON. Pre-group experience and group experience are narrowly and decisively interpreted through the absolute doctrine, even when experience contradicts the doctrine.

8. DISPENSING OF EXISTENCE. Salvation is possible only in the group. Those who leave the group are doomed.

From FactNet http://www.factnet.org/rancho1.htm


At our LARSE gathering last September Joe Szimhart spoke about “triggers” and dissociation.

Triggers can be any group-associated symbol, image, sound, song, spoken word, word, smell, movie, name, etc, that causes an ex-member to dissociate, get angry, feel fear, daydream, or react in a way that feels out of control.

Most of these reactions in most ex-members fade with normal resocialization in a year or so, but if any linger or cause PTSD symptoms like nightmares and panic attacks, it helps to get seek professional guidance.

What is dissociation?
Dissociation is a disturbance in the normally integrative functions of identity, memory or consciousness.
It is also known as a trance state. It is a very normal defense mechanism. You’ve all probably heard of how a child being abused dissociates—or persons in the midst of traumatic experiences. Those are natural occurrences to an unnatural event.
What are some of the events in the life of a cult member that may bring on dissociation?
• Stress of maintaining beliefs
• Stress of constant activities
• Diet/sleep deprivation
• Discordant noises — conflicts
• Never knowing what’s next
There are many, many ways to produce a dissociative or trance state:
• Drugs
• Alcohol
• Physical stress (long distance running)
• Hyperventilation
• Rhythmic voice patterns or noises (drumming)
• Chanting
• Empty-minded meditation
• Speaking in tongues
• Long prayers
• Guided visualizations
• “imagine…”
• confrontational sessions (hot seat, auditing, struggle sessions)
• decreeing
• hypnotism or “processes”
• hyper arousal—usually into a negative state so the leaders can rescue you (ICC confessions)
• Ericksonian hypnosis (Milton Erickson) hypnotic trance without a formal trance induction
Before I describe how Ericksonian hypnosis works, why are we so concerned about trance states?
• Individuals don’t process information normally in trance states
• Critical thinking—the arguing self—is turned off
• Also turned off are reflection, independent judgment, decision-making
• In trance you are dealing with the subconscious mind which has no way to tell the difference between something imagined or reality—it becomes a real experience which is interpreted for you by the group ideology.
• Once in a trance, people have visions or may “hear” sounds—that are later interpreted for you in the context of the cult mindset—the “magic” while in reality they are PURPOSELY MANUFACTURED PHYSIOLOGICAL REACTIONS TO THE TRANCE STATE.
• While in trance you are more suggestible—not just during trance but for a period of time up to 2 hours after.
• When a person dissociates it becomes easier and easier to enter into a dissociative state — it can become a habit—and it can become uncontrollable.

From....
http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/giambalvo_carol_copingwithtriggersandptsd.htm

Information about triggers.

http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/giambalvo_carol_copingwithtriggersandptsd.htm

http://www.factnet.org/Margaret_Thaler_Singer/Post_Cult_After_Effects.html

http://hometown.aol.com/carol2180/coping.htm

Joe Szimhart http://home.dejazzd.com/jszimhart

Thanks Joe.

Good point, Tree.

How many times (MANY) we've witnessed "Ramtha" asking questions of the audience and 99% of the students would have their hands raised BEFORE THE QUESTION WAS COMPLETELY ASKED.

I sat back and observed (with my hand down, thank you), this trend, for a while before I finally departed RSE. At my last event, where Joe Dispenza was, in my opinion, slandered, it was evident again. "Ramtha" defamed Joe to the audience, and one thing he repeatedly said was nobody needed him and F him, anyway. He then asked the audience what they THOUGHT. Well, they only were apparently capable of parroting back what they were TOLD TO THINK, and they sat there saying really bad things about Joe Dispenza.

Joe was NOT present to defend himself. It was one of the most disgusting presentations I have ever witnessed in my too-many-years in that "school" that doesn't deserve to be called a school imo.

I imagine you were there at that event, Tree ?

What is happening here at EMF is not very different from RSE. Personal points of view or sincere questioning are just not tolerated. There is so much more that I wanted to explore about what has become of RSE today but frankly don't feel this is the place for it.

Maybe if I had "raised my hand in agreement" that NLP techniques were being used at RSE without the student's knowledge (even though I really did not yet see how this was happening) I would have been accepted as part of the gang.

Yes, watcha, I do see the equivalent of mindless hand raising happening here at EMF.

If you spent just a momemt to contemplate the many ways in which thoughts and expression is controlled on this site you would see there are cult aspects to EMF.

To JTRL:

As far as my expressing that I left rse a happy person being perceived as a personal attack on the wounds of ex-rse EMF posters that have been burned - all I can say is, that is a classic sign of victimization and insecurity. If you feel the happiness of others is a threat to you how can you say this site is all about the healing of ex-ramsters. (I'd actually give most of the EMF posters more credit then that.)

Hope,

"To JTRL:

As far as my expressing that I left RSE a happy person being perceived as a personal attack on the wounds of ex-rse EMF posters that have been burned - all I can say is, that is a classic sign of victimization and insecurity. If you feel the happiness of others is a threat to you how can you say this site is all about the healing of ex-ramsters. (I'd actually give most of the EMF posters more credit then that.)"

You say "perceived as a threat". You speak of my (?) perception yet I never said that I perceived you as a threat. You then say "If I feel...” Why not just ask me how I feel and why I feel like that? That is all I have asked of you yet you continue to dodge and weave like a politician.

I will try to answer your question (it was a question even though there was no question mark).

To start off with "IF" you statement was correct about my feeling that the happiness of others was a threat to me, I would more then likely remove myself from the threatening environment much like you have said some of the X RSE students you know have done. I also would do as much as I could to make sure I did not have any further contact with "happy" people. If I thought them a great enough threat, I could even want them to be eliminated for the sake of all the unhappy people like myself from the planet.

2nd part of your question; I CAN say but I NEVER said "this site is all about the healing of X ramsters".

Matter of fact I thought I had recognized that while others express differing views there is bound to be some animosity and other feelings brought up. How one deals with that animosity and other issues that may come up in discussing a controversial subject is in my mind the more important thing.

The answer to your "if " question is in my mind more or less like the question, If your aunt had balls would she be your uncle? The premise is not correct from the beginning and so renders most answers basically meaningless. My answer reflects that.

If you find my questions equally meaningless say so, if you don't and they don't make you feel too uncomfortable to answer I would be interested in hearing your answers to them.

My analogy to the burnees and them having their wounds bathed in lemon juice did not imply that you or the person doing so was deliberately doing so.

In my hypothetical they (the one doing the bathing)more then likely thought that they were helping cleanse the wounds. Only after they have been informed that the lemon juice does not does not feel good for the wounded can they be held responsible should they keep on doing it.

To JTRL:
"My analogy to the burnees and them having their wounds bathed in lemon juice did not imply that you or the person doing so was deliberately doing so."

Thanks for clarifying that statement.

When I was addressing your comment in my previous email. My use of the word "you" was meant to be a generic you not a reference to anyone in particular and definately not you.

Hope..

There is bound to be contention here,
We are dealing with issues that rack the heart and soul.. But throwing a bucket of red paint at the EMF forum members and accusing them of being red …is rather meaningless, there are many colors to explore here..
Having said that..
EMF is not the place for “Ramtha” supporters to post.
This would be akin to inviting an alcoholic to drive you home after a wine ceremony…
You obviously cherish your “Ramtha” experience.
I would encourage you to look a little deeper into what foundation your RSE wisdom is built upon….
Take the time to read the other threads on the EMF forum.

This will not deminish your wisdom
if infact, this is what it is...?

David

Hope,

You don't need to concern yourself with me and whether or not I have taken a moment to see what goes on, on this site.

If I were not a tolerant person, and if I were a control freak, there would be MANY posts here, that would have been deleted. But, they have not been BECAUSE WE DO TOLERATE DIVERSITY, within the parameters that are stated with regard to the purpose of this site and forum.

YOU have asked many questions. ONCE, a few of us questioned YOU back, and you immediately started throwing arrows.

I think you need to step back and look at yourself. I know I am not alone in seeing that you don't see the forest for the trees on certain issues related to RSE. NOR do you have to. But when you start slamming others, you've gone over a threshold where you are not welcome.

You still haven't answered the issue that was raised, and it DOES sound like RSE-speak to ask someone, repeatedly, to further "elaborate". This has obviously pressed a button in you. There are no attacks at you - quite the contrary !!!!!

As David said, if you think this forum is so cultish, one might also question why you bother to read or post here. There are many people for whom this site works well. More than the people that even post here. We get feedback from many areas.

This will probably be the last time I post. I have posted of the manipulation I felt and about the battle I went through to leave and also about keeping the wisdom. Both times the threads were slightly jumped on, though I put "I" in front of my words. I was talking amout MY experiences, no one elses.

I have no regrets, nor do I feel betrayed or duped.

I will absolutely cherish most of my time with the Ram as you are suggesting Hope to do, probably because I was there way before RSE started and I will never forget them and changed the course of my life forever for the better.After RSE was formed, it did not feel right anymore, I left.

Why can't this truly be a sight for ex members with very mixed feelings, why is "Cherishing" what was gained wrong.

This is too much anger and control here on this site, that I cannot be a part of.

"As David said, if you think this forum is so cultish, one might also question why you bother to read or post here. "

Good point. Yes I do think this forum is cultish and I will not bother to post here anymore.

Beautiful Mind - you had started a beautiful thread and it has deteriorated to this. Meanwhile, I just finished watching "From Freedom to Fascism" and I am having a sickening realizaion that my time on this forum has been wasted. While EMF is quibbling over "all the money" that JZ is making and her plastic surgery, we are being robbed in a much bigger ways.
If you haven't already seen it check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsZO6G7dfpI

"Yes I do think this forum is cultish and I will not bother to post here anymore. "

Thank you.

check out the Ahimas thread -- does anyone else see a similarity in the pattern of verbiage unfolding as the thread progresses with what has been happening on this thread? Does anyone else see the similarity of accusations re the purpose and posters here?

This message board is a cocktail party. One has entered a virtual room and it is filled with small clusters of people talking. Some conversations have been underway and others are just getting started. It is up to the participant to find the conversations that are of interest - for whatever reason.

It is not realistic to think that all conversations will be relevant to a particular individual.

It is not realistic to think that one can control other peoples' reactions to posts. What in the past were normal social restraints are not present in cyberspace. No eye contact, no visual cues, no body language. This may be the first message board a person has participated in.

Cyber communication is a new dance which we are all learning. There are going to be missteps, miscues and
some toes stepped on. It is all part of learning.

If someone misinterprets or misunderstands another person's post there is nothing gained by taking it personally. In the absence of other social cues misunderstanding is quite easy. Anyone who wants to play in cyberspace needs to adapt to different conditions.

Elsewhere on this message board Truth-Seeker started a specific thread and asked posters to stick with the topic. Anyone is free to do that.

I hope that no one will mind me pointing out the fact that to announce, "This is my last post," or "I won't be posting again," is emotional manipulation.

It's a cocktail party. Participate in the conversations that are interesting and leave the rest alone. Start the conversations you want to participate in.

It's a party, let's dance.

Yes, Cynical, I did observe the pattern and I attribute it to RSE staff. They are here trying to do damage control. It's easy to pick them out because they jump at every chance to make a positive RSE statement.

hope-
you seemed to have missed my thread.
maybe take a few days...
we are not here to bash you.
We love your input.
Thank you, Hope.

Beautiful Mind said, "Why can't this truly be a sight for ex members with very mixed feelings, why is "Cherishing" what was gained wrong. "

My response: It is. I myself have posted a number of times about the "good/bad" times I had at RSE. I'm not speaking for anyone else, but I do know that SOME people have posted on EMF, and have clearly gone outside of the boundaries of why this forum exists. They have boldly bashed and flamed those that post here who speak out against RSE.

There is nothing "wrong" with cherishing the good times. But, when someone does that, and seemingly ignores any "bad" times, and then gets questioned about things such as empathy for those that have suffered or witnessed some bad things, all of a sudden the site is picking on them. Those are bully tactics. B.Mind, I am not saying that about YOU, I am answering your question about "why".

It's very curious that those who will start name calling toward those here who expose some unfortunate goings on past/present at RSE, try to pigeon hole such people as being victims, angry, whiners, etc. It's simply untrue. Then, ironically enough, those same people scream indignation when they are questioned. Questioning the sincerity of a poster who comes on board, praises their wonderous times at RSE, then going on to bash those who do not do the same, is quite appropriate. They do sound like they could be pro-RSE folks who want to post and attempt to sabotage the site.

Beautiful Mind said, "This is too much anger and control here on this site, that I cannot be a part of."

My response: You don't have to post here. Or read here. I personally disagree that there is "too much anger" here. My reasons for what gets questioned and sounds suspicious, are cited above. I know I am not angry and I know some of the other posters on here who have courageously spoken about things some folks may not have the courage to speak up about - and they are not angry, either. They are simply calling it like they see it. Being the messenger of "bad news" does not equate anger. Not accurately, anyway.

Furthermore, if someone feels angry, that's okay, too. There are some people who have had such horrific experiences, they are fully justified in feeling angry. Anger is not a bad thing, but hurting others because of it, is.

Disagreeing does not equate being "controlling". That is possibly another bully tactic. Not saying you intended it that way, but it could be that way.

You started this thread by posting all of the things you "would not forget". Good for you.

You said in your initial post, "I find for ME in healing, it is healthy to keep all the beauty." Good for YOU. For others, it is healthy to keep the beauty they gained from the teachings, and also to have integrity about the ugliness they gained from the teachings, also. Whether they gained it directly, or indirectly, they chose not to sweep it under a rug.

In THAT, there is beauty. It's all in the eyes of the beholder, after all.

Yes, Cynical. The patterns are there. Thanks for commenting on it.

Hope and BM........

With all of utmost love and respect to both of you.

"Don't let the EMF door hit you in the rear end on the way out."

But just one last word before you go.

No where on the entire internet is there such discussion about the mystery of RSE except for here.
Its a students or ex students mirror and litmus test.

Judy's Chat Room didn't get to the heart of the matter and The Masters Connection sensors any questioning and any attempt at PARLAY on their site.

I may seem brash to some on this site but I haven't eaten or harmed anyone nor have I tried to profit from any of you.

What goes on in this chat room is honest and uncensored and it is a rare opportunity to express much more than "positive" goodie feelings about self.
(Tell your pets your story. I'm sure they will patronize you.)

And as I said. No one has lost their life savings or family over what was said on this site.

This honesty is not allowed thru rse channels because
the truth is not good for the one sided business agenda.

And this is why there is so many "hits" on this site.

Honesty has more impact on people than does the same old "Show" down the road in Yelm.

Does it matter if ones experience at rse was a positive one in ones life?

I don't frankly care what it was for you, but when I see people bringing the same crap that they brought to rse here on this chat room then I am going to comment about it,and if you don't like my few short pointed words then, as Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers would say,
"Don't Come Round Here No More".

But mark my words my pretties.
None of us can get that Ramtha thing out of our heads and THAT is what this chat site is all about until one day when we walk on our own and in that day we will forget all about the enigma known as Ramtha The Enlighten One and daughter Judi.

If your viewing or contributing to this site then obviously your day has not come yet.

Except for Joe.
But he has his own cross too carry.

I am not gifted with writing skills and I must say that I am very impressed with the patience of Joe and David And DTRL and WACAMACALIT.

They do "elaborate" quite effectively.

just read through this thread...let me howl a bit with you, Wolfman....oooowwwuuuuu....whatever

Good point about not being able to get ramtha out of 'our' heads. My cross, you said it, I thought there was something truly wrong with me, like a psychosis for several years after I left CUT in the early 1980s, and I was only devoted to the **** group for 1.5 years!! Every day the thoughts went round and round unless I was working or distracted by caring for my daughter or being with a friend. Any and every moment of down time, there were these obsessive thoughts. I felt crazy. My head was filled with slick lawyers arguing for several sides--of the skeptic, the theologian, the cult member, the jester.

Back in 1980 there was no one for me to talk to until I contacted a few ex-members and two mothers of members in 1982. We used snail mail, clippings, and long hand notes, fax machines. The few books about the current cult experience included "Snapping" by Conway and Siegelman (1st 1979), "Karma Cola" by Gita Mehta (1979) and of course RJ Lifton. All that is dated now, but it helped to give me hope for clarity.

One of the downsides of emf/email/newsgroups is their immediacy and permanence--yes every stupid impulse phrase you write in email can last for posterity and haunt you when you run for president Old letters normally never leave the recipient who throws stuff away after a few years.

emf will pass too someday. I see it as a valuable crucible, a place for fires to burn, a rite of passage for some toward clarity and purging, and a carnival side-show for others who enjoy watching the freaks and feeling superior to fat ladies, two-headed snakes, and elephant men.

We should all take time to watch The Elephant Man again.

Joe

I ended that post with a vague reference. To explain my inference about The Elephant Man, I see the film as a parody of cults and cult life. In the film "John" Merrick or Elephant Man is rescued from an abusive side-show owner by a kind doctor who restores Merrick to better health and helps him to realize his intelligence and personality. The good doc can be seen as an "exit counselor" helping the abused and trapped man to "realize" himself but the film is inaccurate.

From Wikipedia "Elephant Man, the film": Historical inaccuracies:
The film is based on historical events but makes numerous changes to recorded fact. For example, the incidents in Belgium and at the railway station took place before Merrick was admitted to Treves's hospital, not afterward, and Merrick travelled to Belgium of his own accord, because freakshows had been made illegal in Britain, unlike the film, in which he is kidnapped. There is also no evidence that Merrick was abused while working at the horrible freakshow. In fact, Merrick had saved up a great deal of money from the wages he had earned while working there. Likewise, Treves did not "rescue" Merrick from a sadistic carnival proprietor; it was Merrick who freely approached the doctor with a written note requesting his care.

Contrary to the film, Dr. Treves did not cajole Merrick into speaking his first words. Indeed, on account of a severe constrictive deformity of the mouth, it actually took several operations before Merrick was physically able to speak at all. The film's chief antagonist, Bytes, is an entirely fictitious character. As played by Freddie Jones, wearing ratty clothes with a stove-pipe hat, a perpetual five-o'clock shadow and a chronic case of alcoholic tremors, Bytes is clearly modeled after Robert Newton's characterization of Bill Sykes in David Lean's 1948 film of Oliver Twist.[original research?]

The film also repeats an error in many early biographies and fictionalizations of Merrick's life in calling him John, when his name was, in fact, Joseph."

This film brings out two sides to the cult recovery issue. Often cults are stereotyped and misrepresented in popular media and by critics. Merrick may have been a victim of the side-show world but he actually exited it himself and sought help, the way most cult members do on their own. On hindsight, ex-members like Merrick begin to realize just how "freaky" their lives were but that realization is also an indication of just how far they have come in their healing.

I can understand why many ex-RSE members still find "beautiful" things in the group experiences but to me it is a sign of clarity and true growth when one can admit just how "freaky" the RSE experience truly was and what "outrageous," as an early loaded RSE term, really means.

Joe

Hope's post "I will not bother to post here anymore," takes one last jab at EMF. "While EMF is quibbling over all the money JZ is making and her plastic surgery..."

The fact is that those topics are not what this site it about. The reference was an effort to minimize what is discussed here (a damage control tactic.)

Then Hope uses the technique of distraction ("From Freedom to Fascism") in an effort to move peoples' attention away from EMF (and on to something BIGGER and MORE IMPORTANT.)

One of the things that I like about this site is that it is possible to observe mind control and coersive persuasion in action. Great opportunity to learn how to recognize it.

Hope will be back using a different name but the techniques will be the same. First one to identify the reincarnation of Hope gets a blue star!

Oh, Wolfman. I disagree. I think you express yourself very, very well.

seesallsides writes: ''''"..and making her body change shape like that...gotta hand it to her, pretty unhuman stuff!''''

Having seen J/R and R/J several times, I didn't notice any shape-shifting. This could be a recent occurrence over the past year. Only thing I noticed was the on and off accent and bigger shoes, something most people could do all on their own.