Hummingbird posted, "He was berated at the ranch by J/R at an event for being a perpetual stoner, which is why he did not return. I know this as a friend of mine was sitting next to him at the event that it happened. The stories that could be told about drug use at the ranch and amongst students of RSE, it really deserves a new thread as it hasn't really been touched upon on this site."

Hummingbird,
you got your wish. Here is a new thread, dedicated to the topic of drug use at RSE.

One thing I can contribute, because I have heard it addressed, is the use of antidepressants. This also dovetailed with some wine ceremonies. I don't believe that it's safe to even mix the two substances.

The post you made on another thread - that was referring to one of JZ's sons ? I have not heard of the event you described. I have heard that one of the sons had drug related issues. I believe that was mid 90's. That's sad. Wouldn't wish that on anyone. Hopefully, he overcame that. Do you know when that happened ?

When you say drug use, do you mean OTC (over the counter) and/or illegal drugs ? If you do mean illegal substances, please be VERY THOROUGH AND ACCURATE, FACTUAL in your posts here. Same for everyone, obviously. It's obviously a serious topic, as others here have been.

Well, I can say that I have been at a wine event when the person in front of me was smoking pot in his pipe and the red guard came over and took the pipe and the person that was smoking had to go with the red guard and that was right up front close to the stage.

Was it 2000 or 2001 when "Ramtha" announced that JZ benefitted from taking Prozac and it is a great drug. I remember thinking, "Why would JZ need Prozac when she has the Ram?"

I do not know what was presented at RSE regarding the taking of Prozac but I do know a student who took it for a while. She gave it up because she could not afford it. I think she said it cost around $100 a month to take.

It was in 2000, because I had just moved to WA and I start taking it.

There is a CD teaching where s/he discusses the benefits of taking antidepressants. Talked about the effect upon the brain. In any case, I'm just mentioning that it is recorded, though off the top of my head, I can't say the title of the CD.

Maybe someone else knows ?

Whatcha asked "do you mean OTC and or illegal drugs?".

What I was refering to was the use of illegal and illicit substances at RSE and also amongst groups of people in Yelm that were current students. There were 3 main illegal drugs of choice. Speed or ice, marijuana and a drug that was being promoted as a "natural exctasy", probably similar to peyote from South America called cho cho.

My experience with the later was at the 2nd Boktau in 1997. There was a wine ceromony on the tank field set up with a fenced off circle which had drummers and the usual entourage. I was with a group of people which included my boyfriend at the time and his friends. Before the ceremony I was offered a cho cho by this group of people and my x-boyfriend. I declined as I thought mind altering substances and spirituality didn't go hand in hand. I knew that people "in the circle" also had done this as well. I did not have a high tolerance of alcohol at the time so I didn't drink much wine, hence found myself quite sober and having to baby sit my boyfriend as he was having a "bad trip"!

The use of this drug was very common amongst very large circles of people associated with RSE. It is imported form South America by a very wealthy Latino woman who also, like Judy lives in a large, luxurious house. I'm not here to incriminate anyone, so I will not name names, just being factual.

It was common knowledge that as nature girl mentioned one of the comrades used to always smoke marijuana at the ranch during events.

My then boyfriend and his circle of friend also frequently used speed and other illicit drugs (as well as the legal sort) at parties we were invited to along with some well known "public figures" at the ranch. This was prior to the "Prozac Promotional" days of J/R.

At one party I was in disbelief as one of Judy's prior toy boys make an extremely vulgar sexual innuendo to me. My thoughts were, "this is not the mark of a person who has high spiritual values, rather someone that is very base and debauched in their thinking". I was very surprised as this is someone that is held in high esteem by J/R and always was exalted when making an appearance at the ranch.

At the end of my tenure in Yelm I was battling severe depression from not being able to pay my bills, relying on handouts from my boyfriends mother, the prospect of my 3 year visa running out and becoming an illegal, and not being able to attend events at the ranch which was why I had moved there in the first place. I decided to go to my home country for 3 months and get a job just so I could get ahead. I paid many of my debts and was feeling a lot better about myself. On my return to Yelm and my boyfriend I discovered he'd gone on a complete drug bender, as he was being "looked after" by someone that supported this behaviour. This woman was 10 years older than him with 2 children, and also an x-ramster and the x-wife of a person who acheived much fame through RSE. The drug use had put him in such a state that he was not able to even communicate with me about our relationship.

After that I decided to leave Yelm and get a life. The highly dysfunctional behaviour of people that I encountered during my time in Yelm really just left me wondering about the whole experience.

I have been processing, like many others that contribute to this site a whole gammit of emotions associated with the J/R experience. Thankyou for this site. Finally we have a voice...

I have never heard of Ramtha promoting these sorts of drugs. In the early years he was emphasized that marijuana destroyed the brain and definetly did not recommend other types of illicit drugs.

Did Ramtha recommend taking any of these substances in later years?

I have heard of him recommending the Prozac but was absent during those years.

I have observed students put their own interpretaions on what is presented and then oftentimes the idea goes through the Yelm community even though it was not actually something presented at RSE.

Could you clarify ?

Christel in response to your question I never heard Ramtha promote the use of any illicit substances such as the ones I have spoken of. On contrary he would condone drugs and say they destroyed the brain. There is much scientific evidence supporting this so you don't need to be an ascended master to know this one.

I attended RSE between 1996 and 2000.

An illicit drug sub-culture exists in every community. The irony is that some of the people I encountered that were students at RSE hid behind a "spiritual guise" to justify their drug use. Simply just relating my personal experiences...

Thanks. Actions speak louder than words as does the observation of the life of many students who ardently support the benefits of the teachings.

The life of a long term student ought to be observable to be markedly different on a daily basis from short term students, or the rest of humanity if the teachings really worked.

What normally propels someone to go further in their studies of any kind is observable benefit.

It is not so in RSE. What propels students to continue is another version of that carrot that is almost within reach.......

Wow. Thanks for posting that, Hummingbird. It just goes to show that there is more and more coming to the surface, about the inner goings on there. Where was JZ in all of this ?

Hi Watcha,

Here is the thread you mentioned in "is X used at RSE?". Surely JZ is aware that this is a sub culture within the community thus she uses her persona as "R" to preach on such topics. The dealer/ importer of this specific drug Cho to my knowledge has been a part of the inner circle at RSE. Perhaps Tree could confirm the details of this particular individuals involvement with JZ.

Hummingbird,
Thank you for posting. You have covered the subject pretty well in terms of detail. If someone was in the school at the time, it won't be rocket science to figure out who is who. I knew all the people you mentioned. It is kinda funny that you and I might know each other through some of the 6 degree's of separation going on here.

Prozac does help some people. Unfortunately, it does not help everyone. And there are studies which show that it is actually harmful to others. As with most psychotropic durgs, there are side effects: as with most prescription drugs you need to weigh the possible benefits against the possible demerits. If a person is seriously depressed, then trying Prozac (as opposed to widespread long term use) may be a good idea. However they should be closely monitored by a trained medical professional, and also care should be taken when they are going off it.
Sounds to me, like, whatever Judy goes through in her life (and, if she was depressed, I do feel some sympathy for her), all of her students must go through as well.
There is an excellent book on the subject of prozac - "Listening to Prozac"...I forget the author...forgetting things is a possible side of anti depressants in general. It seems transparent...Judy is going through something, and has to take something for it, so, not only does this get justified in the eyes of the students, it is now prescribed for them.
Alas, now there are a number of studies showing that the family of drugs of which prozac is a member are linked with higher suicide rates among depressed young people, in particular, who take them.
As to the illicit drugs, I am glad that at least they are not endorsed at the ranch. Living on the outside, I can say they they are awfully common out here among certain groups...the indie band scene and the hospitality industry are rife with them. Have seen this with my own eyes. But, "cho" is something I don't know about. Some people that I know do coke, crack, ordinary ex and (but this is rare) heroine.
I do not include marijuana in with those others...you would have to live as a hermit on a mountain not to have seen it regularly, in the 70s, 80s, 90s and 2000s. I don't toke, myself, (or take any drugs, licit or illicit - now. Twenty years ago I was given every antidepressant on the market at that time...none of them helped...guess grief is not the same thing as depression, and there is no pill for it)but I consider it less harmful than booze. The main problem with it is, it's illegal. I am more concerned about the wine consumption, which sounds like it is forced upon people who would rather not do it. Stating the obvious, alcohol is a depressant, and is an addictive drug.

Ps. I lied (accidentally) - I smoke tobacco cigarettes.

yes, everything Hummingbird, Leaf and nature girl said is true.
I, too, know of the individuals they speak about.
My son hung around that group for a while
as one of the "importers" has a daughter his same age.
These types of drugs are not really my style.(Still working on the drinking thing).
What I find appalling though is "R" actually telling everyone in audience to
take Prozac and the teachings of anti-depressants on the brain. And then to have wine ceremonies of top if the prozac.
This it totally absurd, yet I bought into it.
What is even more disturbing is that a practicing medical practitioner prescribing Prozac for nearly everyone in
RSE!!!
I recall having been on Prozac (because
"he" said so), and a few months later thinking,"wow. um...why am I taking this?"
I gave the rest of my presription to a foreigner who could no longer afford it.
It also dawned on me yesterday while I was walking my dog: how in the WORLD did I ever believe that a "God" could get drunk, slur their speech, puke, etc.
Well, duh! Tree! it WASN'T a God , it was JZ!!! You only THOUGHT so because
JZ/R TOLD you that it was so.
It was the obvious, obvious.
I was so, um, it was as if another mini-light went on.

Thanks for posting this again !!!

Hi Tree, I had forgotten the fact that this individual has a daughter. It's pretty disgraceful to expose your child to this sort of thing! There were always parties at this persons house at which the daughter was present. How could you not notice even as a child that people are under the influence of party drugs? And they all thought they were so "enlightened" and superior. What a complete crock of s**t!

I have known people who have died as a result of alcohol and drug use, especially after the introduction of wine ceremonies. Since I am no longer living and involved with people in Yelm I wonder how many others I have known have followed the same path? Surley many... it's not rocket science to work it out.

I remembered at that particular Boktau the day following the wine ceremony I felt completely empty and void and had an overwheming desire to get out of the ranch. I got in my car and drove out the front gate before the event was officially declared over. When it came to the next mandatory I was told that because I left this event early I was not allowed back to do my mandatory. Too funny as Boktau was not even a required event!!! It was only that my boyfriend's mother was in cahoots with Vicky Kady that we were allowed back for the mandatory. I must have been put on the blacklist of "troublesome individuals" on the RSE staff board that Tree spoke of in another thread!!! What? Good on you for having your own mind, your on the blacklist now... LOL!!!

Leafinthewind... yes it is quite possible that our paths may have crossed during this time. Watcha has my email address if you would like to be in touch.

you guys remember the loving eyes photo from jzr.was onsale during chrismastime a few years ago.total elevated pupils.druguse?????of course this is my opinion but someone who tells people to pop in antidepresiva might be only hold back by the fact that standing up for illigel drugs would bring you realy in conflict with the law,

ex- that photo was creepy! I think you nailed it when you said she has no choice but to go against illegal drugs because, well... they're illegal.

Does anyone know if the "Prozac pushing" is still going on? Judi gave a talk about victimization, and in it she told us she had been on Prozac for two years and "loved it." She didn't tell this beginner's group to get it, though, and the subsequent events I was at, she was more into her "time tiles" and lastly, "godscope."

But I'm particularly interested to hear if anyone knows that a lot of people are still taking this prescription drug "because "R" says so."

G2G, that's a good question about the numbers of students (or even x-students) who are still hooked on Prozac - because it was endorsed at the school.

My understanding is a local family nurse practitioner prescribes it readily. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I am.

My question would then be, if these are truths, why aren't people's medical licenses being called on the line, and/or why isn't the school being called out on practicing medicine without a license ?

Just wondering....

During the past year, I met 2 men, both relatively new to the school, who had started taking Prozac because of Ram-that recommendation (..up yur..!) The first guy was gonzo on everything (CDs, DVDs, etc)and a strong dose of Prozac that made him slur badly.

The second guy was just the other day - someone coming in for BC. He hadn't been taking Prozac very long, and was thinking about stopping. So new people, or at least those moving to Yelm from elsewhere think it's the thing to do.

As far using anti-depressants with wine, TWO depressant at the same time is not such a good idea. One has to ask: now WHO is concerned about their brain chemistry around here? Ability to focus? gemme a break.

I have smelled pot at ranch events. I have heard 'old timers' talk about JZ's parties in the good ole days. And I look around now and see so many people poor and dysfunctional in life I understand - these are all characteristics of drug addicts. These wino-drug addicts are 'forest bums' versus those living homeless in city streets. But none-the-less are every bit similar to degraded, lost souls sleeping in alcoves or in cardboard boxes. Now this IS an observable outcome of rse...

"My question would then be, if these are truths, why aren't people's medical licenses being called on the line, and/or why isn't the school being called out on practicing medicine without a license ?"

The State medical/nursing board ought be contacted and informed. It's very dangerous to mix Prozac and alcohol and affects, uh, "consciousness!"

If they're buying "black market" Prozac, or having tons prescribed, the state medical boards must be notified.

I'm going to look up Washington state's addresses and post it. BRB. : )

When those in positions to take action are unaware of these abuses, nothing can be done to prevent the danger short of other people telling brainwashed people. Those in positions to do something have to be alerted, and only then can something be accomplished. It takes a simple note, letter, doesn't have to be typed (in fact, handwritten, legibly, is a good thing).

You don't casually mess with serotonin-re-uptake inhibitors. Going off of them cold turkey is very dangerous as well, and can result in severe depression, suicides - school shootings- paranoia - it's very dangerous and under a doctor's care, people are gradually weaned from these medications, for that's what they are.

BRB with addresses.

If someone says they're depressed and gets a prescription from someone authorized to write them, there probably would be no cause to complain.
Doctors and nurse practitioners who get into legal trouble are those who prescribe excess narcotic/pain killers, etc. which are beyond the recommended dosages, or who use alternative, unprescribed forms of treatment.
I wonder if the people who took prozac bothered to read the small print! :-( That stuff can cause psychotic episodes, suicidal and murderous tendencies, etc, in those who are sensitive; and even those who don't have an immediate sensitive reaction, can have permanent brain damage after years of use.
If you do an on line search, there's a doctor Tracy (not sure of the spelling), who has done extensive research into this and other similar drugs like Zoloft, etc. and the deadly effects they have had on some people and their families.

Washington state Department of Health (DOH)

URL for complaint information:

https://fortress.wa.gov/doh/hpqa1/disciplinary/complaint.htm
----------------------------------

To download complaint form to email or fax back (PDF format):

https://fortress.wa.gov/doh/hpqa1/documents/complaint.pdf

-----------------------------------------

 -  If your complaint involves a regulated health care provider,
    please contact:
   
         Department of Health
            Health Professions Quality Assurance
             at (360) 236-4700
-------------------------

If you telephone, it helps to follow up with a written complaint, even in handwriting and not typed. Include anything you know about practioners' less-than-professional conduct, including use and promotion of prescription drugs when unwarranted. (example: told to use by group - hundreds of people-

"If someone says they're depressed and gets a prescription from someone authorized to write them, there probably would be no cause to complain."

True, however, what method did the diagnostician utilize to confirm this diagnosis? Does the person function? Equally important is the duration of the use of the medication, for it's not intended to be swallowed forever. That in and of itself is a red-flag to pharmacists and the authorities alike. In fact, I'm surprised local pharmacists have not become involved, for filling bottle after bottle of Prozac.

A mental health practitioner may not be aware of cult activity or LGAT, etc., BUT they do know when a medication is over-prescribed to masses of people.

For that matter, how do we know what's in JRZ'rs well water? Rauwolfia?
These health issues trouble me greatly, and it has to be reported to the state. Then one would ask, why are SO many people within this community, who attend this school or are affiliated with it--why are they so "depressed?"

All one needs is a video/audio with RamThat telling people to take the drug, and follow it up with a complaint to the state. In addition, health insurance companies, if the people have health insurance, will question why the person is on this medication for an extended period of time. The question will be asked of the health-care provider who prescribed it. Continued depression then would imply the medication is NOT working, and the insurance companies also have a say. (I'm not saying I'm fond of this intervention, but in this scenario-it could be beneficial.)

I feel so sorry for these people, especially those who left all behind and have no other support system except others in the school. That is a trap in and of itself.

The post about others caring is so true. You think you're alone, but you are not. No one wants another Jonestown or Heavens Gate. Everyone feels sad to hear that sort of thing, and to try and wrap one's mind around it for those not having any involvement in such a group, is extremely difficult.

Bodhi writes: " I wonder if the people who took prozac bothered to read the small print!"

Would it matter if they did, when they'd been instructed to use it by RamThat?
The thinking skills are just not there at that time. To the people, it's "RamThat" knows better-he's an "ascended Master" - neither pharmacists nor doctors know anything approaching what RamThat knows."

Prozac ideally is not intended for longterm use -- but in some cases it is required... Prozac also combats anxiety disorders and those are sometimes chemical in nature and do not disappear, therapy or no therapy... and in those cases as well as with chemically or physiologically related depression, prozac or another similar drug are required to allow the person to live a "normal" functioning life, however long that may be.

As Bodhi said, prozac is not a narcotic or opiate.. or other sedative or painkiller or sleep aid that would raise red flags... and it IS helpful to SOME people...

I understand the rage at JZ -- but it is extremely important in order for this forum to be credible source of opinion / information that feelings don't exaggerate illustrated situations.

In my opinion, it is wreckless of JzR to advocate the use of any particular medicine, cure or even in her case, idea or manner of "being".... But we all know, she/he does not exhibit responsible behavior anyway!.. It's a hugely gray area that could never be proved to make statements that imply she/he is responsible for all the prozac prescriptions in Yelm... Could that be in the same gray area as people suing MacDonald's because they got fat from eating Big Macs??... Or any different than drug companies advertising on TV???... I dunno, I'm just throwing that out there... At some point, one's own personal accountability comes into play, Ram or no Ram... Street drug addicts and alcoholics aren't let off the hook because they were seduced by the beer and prescription med commercials on TV....

Very, true. There are people with chemical disorders where the serotonin-re-uptake inhibitor is necessary due to the person's individual chemistry. Thing is when masses of people are prescribed the medication, within the same area - pharmacists filling and refilling for the masses-that is a red flag. What are the statistics of people on Prozac in Yelm/RSE in comparison to the rest of the country? (I doubt they exist). That's the situation I'm referring to. Ultimately, the individuals writing the scripts are responsible; it;s their license on the line, and if they don't have a license, they are practicing against the law, and this has to be reported.

The anti-depressants definitely have value for people--who have a serotonin re-uptake problem, or are in serious depression. The doctors will, where I live-receive a letter from the insurance provider and pharmacy asking for a re-evaluation if the patient has been on the med for an extended period of time.

There are those who definitely require it and live happier and fuller lives as a result. In no way should those who medically require it be denied it, imo (my opinion). Masses of people at RSE - maybe they are depressed - and then you wonder-why would THAT be? Oh yeah. They "created" it; not RSE teachings.

Would be an interesting demographic/stat study on scripts and refills within the area of Prozac.

Frogprince: "During the past year, I met 2 men, both relatively new to the school, who had started taking Prozac because of Ram-that recommendation..."

Frogprince, you've just cracked the code. That's all she's (JZ) has been doing is 'Ramming' recommendations, ideas, activities, philosophy, all along. 'Ram-that,' into them (the students).

Oh my, the truth was right there in the name all along.

Duh, rammit! Should have known.

"A mental health practitioner may not be aware of cult activity or LGAT, etc., "

THEE mental health FNP, IS in the school AND is JZ's most medical sidekick.

of course, Kathy May doe NOT understand, she is in , AND supports, and prescrbibes, to cults.
IF she gets out , she may use this to her credit.
But 3 months ago I saw her, and she totally was condescending to me having an altered perception of RSE, even though, I state appointed psychiatrist, had diagnosed me.
She was UTTERLY condescending to me , and in her tone.
I changed doctors.
She sucks, and is in a cult.
the end.

I didn't see the conversation unfolding on here as saying that RIGHT USE of SSRI's is wrongful in any way.

What was stated was that "Ramtha" supported the use of, and advocated for what happens in the brain in a beneficial way when people take Prozac (specifically Prozac).

With the wine, students were threatened with expulsion from a teaching and/or the school if they did not drink ALL of the wine "he" TOLD them to - and - "he" had their partners monitor their cups to ensure that they were full. If a partner's cup was not full, the student was to raise their hand and rat the slacker out. Some of these people were former alcoholics, being coerced into this behavior "or else".

It is a well known situation that students were mixing large volumes of red wine WHILE taking Prozac, which is dangerous according to traditional medicine.

Carte blanche condoning Prozac use is what was stated here, not anything negative about the proper use of Prozac, on a case-by-case basis by a medical professional for the clinical symptoms it is indicated for. Especially when it was done by a non-medical professional, such as "Ramtha", it seems to at the very least, beg questioning, if not investigation.