Hi all! I'm starting a new thread on Graced's suggestion about inconsistenties in what was taught.

I'd like to share an experience that happened by "accident?". Several years after learning "Blue Body", several of us got together to celebrate whatever. There was a mixture of us from Primary & Secondary groups. We started to discuss the "bands" we'd learned about during the blue body teachings & when we came to the 4th level, we in the Primary group said it was blue. Those in the secondary group said it was green. We all pulled out our notes & sure enough, the 2 groups had been taught 2 different things as to what color this was. When we all realized it, there was suddenly stunned silence, & then everybody just changed the subject as if nothing had happened. Verrrry interesting!
Email: angeliquenewswoman@hotmail.com

Don't Ask ... Don't TELL..

There tends to be a lot of LOOKING the other way... and no one being held accountable in these groups.

When I was in groups like this... and I was with the Ram in the 80's and early 90's... I saw and KNEW the RED FLAGS.. but when you are in it... you CHOSE to look the other way.

What about the many PREDICTIONS of the CRASH.... that was to happen YEARS and YEARS ago.

We changed our reality.... gosh.... tell the JUDGE that you do not need to pay your bills... because NOW... you changed your REALITY... Wink.

Perhaps this is all true.. and in that case... NO ACCOUNTABILITY to anyone???

Where does Ramtha STAND on KARMA NOW... in the 80's he said there is NO KARMA. I guess if you BELiVE that the VICTIM wanted to be screwed or taken advantage of then who cares.. but what I have watched is IN THE NAME of GOD REALIZATIoN... in these Channel groups... there is a lot of ABUSE... and lack of moral character. I hear it said NO RULES... I have encountered some really characters in these groups...

Seems to me that some of the problems with these groups is WHICH SELF is PRESENT and living in the human world.

I have had a very interesting life... but to SAY ... I CREATED my life Consciously... would be a lie.

In truth... THINGS just happen... without C & E.. or making a LIST.. and BREATHING it out twice smile.

Call it blessed... or just good luck.

Smile.

Inconsistency: The Ram used to teach years ago, that we should not use swear words, or their intent would rot the teeth in our mouths.

Later on, we were told, when the wine ceremonies and humiliation of people by the Ram, with coercion to tell one's dark secrets so they could "evolve" (cleanse themselves like in confession). So, at that time, we were "limited" if we couldn't let go of our inhibitions and let it all hang out (swearing).

Ramtha scapegoated his CHOICE to use FOUL swear words for hours on end, with children in the audience, by saying, "I'm just using YOUR words (humans)."
What a cop-out that is ! If he is a God, he then can't CHOOSE to restrain himself and not lower himself to the human level of swearing with the most degrading language I have ever heard in my life ?

So he is accountable for what ? Blaming the students that he "had to" use the words that most people don't even use, they were so foul ?

Not only an inconsistency - but also a hypocrisy. As the teachings go, HE CREATED HIS REALITY and HE WAS SO LIMITED HE COULD NOT TEACH WITHOUT RESORTING TO SWEARING.

If the teachings are true, and the "void" is UNlimited, then "he" should be able to teach within the upper seals that he says he's raising the students to the heights of, BEYOND the base three seals of the human drama. But, "he" doesn't.

“Ramtha” used to teach..........
that dinosaurs became extinct around 35.000 years ago?
Apparently… in his “Time in Counting”….
the Earth was completely covered by cloud stratum, until the lost civilization of “Atlantis”
using a laser weapon “broke” the cloud stratum, causing “the great flood”
and allowing the dangerous ultra violet rays from the sun to break through..
causing the dinosaurs to become extinct.

They still teach this at the RSE “Children’s School of Excellence”.

There is just a wee flaw in “Ramtha’s” history lesson…
The extinction of the dinosaurs occurred over 65 million years ago.

They still teach this at the RSE “Children’s School of Excellence”.


David, is this school part of RSE? Are these children being groomed to be the next generation of "Ram" followers?

I'm not David ...

The school is not part of RSE as far as I know. Someone will correct that belief if it's false. It's independent of RSE, yet it clearly espouses the teachings in its "curriculum".

They do daily disciplines, and follow the teachings. It would seem that they are the next generation of Ramsters.

Diane,

What whatchamacallit posted has been my experience also.

David

Thank you for the clarification(s).

From memory Ramtha initiated the formation of the school by telling students to create an educational school for the children of RSE.

It is quite apparent that their curriculum includes RSE activities/disciplines.

Link to their webpage:
http://www.online-cse.com/id13.html

They have an annual auction to raise funds for the school. It seems after all that daily practice that manna does not rain from heaven.

In the late ‘80s at a retreat – one of the first of its kind – at Estes Park or maybe Snow Mountain – Judy’s Ramtha did a tear jerking thing about how women have been treated throughout time. The valuelessness of an unmarry-able or childless woman caused young women to throw themselves on the garbage heap by age 20. When I heard the audio tape it gave me the rationalization of karmic memory by which to perceive my 20 yr old suicide attempt. Women in the audience, as heard on the audio tape, were wailing. It was an extra-ordainarily emotional ‘teaching’/ event. …. In the more recent video, Where Angels Fear to Tread, Judy’s Ramtha, in a drunken rage, rants on about the atrocities men have perpetrated upon women throughout time. I figure there have been a number of times that Judy’s Ramtha has done so. Meanwhile, women of all ages are being raped in Judy’s arena, as reported by several women, at least. I suspect there are 100s. Judy’sRamtha is allegedly greater than Jesus or Buddha, more enlightened more christed more God … and encourages allows and overtly condones rape and the resulting pregnancies.

In Two Paths Judy’s Ramtha explains how “the Churchs” and all of ‘that which is called in your time and counting organized religion, has set humanity up to believe in the need for salvation and then presents themselves as the only way to achieve salvation. Judy’s Ramtha presents people with the need for becoming Christs and then presents itself as the only way to achieve enlightenment.

The changes of “truth” about homosexuality from Judy’s Ramtha have swung a hundred and eighty degrees so many times even a true Christ would be confused. It’s good it’s ok it’s contrary to nature and the cause of Aids, it’s ok, Aids is manmade, it’s not ok, it’s…. Why not just become a fundamentalist Christian – at least the ‘truth’ is consistent and there’s hope of salvation. (that’s a ‘David dark chuckle’ statement folks…). What happened to ‘love yourself into life’? Souls are also being raped by Judy’s Ramtha.

Excellent point, Confused.

Yes, physical rapes occur at RSE.

Also, emotional and spiritual rapes occur at RSE.

I can say that, because I consider myself a victim of the latter. I also know, I am not alone. I also know I am not a "victim". I believed (for a time), that what was being presented was honest and truthful. But, it was not. I don't consider that makes me a victim; but it makes me naive. But, I'm not naive, anymore.

Ramtha said in the early years that dreams prior to midnight were encoded information that was the brain giving instructions to repair the body.

After midnight dreams were supposed to be prophetic/informative for the individual.

At Assay 6 he said, "Turn to your partner and tell them your dreams don't mean anything."

Mind control. There is plenty of documented evidence that people have won lotteries/seen the future in their dreams.
But Ramtha "does everything for a reason." Problem is he doesn't tell you the real reason.

Hi M.M! Great topic. I also experienced the same thing regarding colors of bands, however it was the 5th seal. Perhaphs the copious amounts of alcohol consumed has put gaping holes in J/R's neural net.

Also during my time at RSE I heard J/R repeatedly state "Everyrthing you need to know I taught at your beginners event". He would chastize those that had left the school. What's wrong with leaving if you learnt it all in that first event? Your chance of attaining enlightenment at RSE is directly proportional to the amount of $$$ you spend. Go figure!!!

LOL, Hummingbird.

I think you mean inversely proportional - the more money one spends at RSE the less their chance of becoming enlightened. Sure looks that way!

I just wanted to make a couple comments on 'inconsistencies' that I have observed.

1. CSE - as the brainchild of some very controlling old time ramsters (now board members), CSE does encourage dev. of remarkable use of intuition. However, many students do NOT learn how to read or write. This is tragic & has been the case for more than 10 years. More than one family has pulled their children out due to this LIFELONG handicap So while Ram tells parents to train & mold these reincarnated terrors, scholastic standards are overlooked & behavioral problems run rampant... parents are too busy managing their own selfish reality. Many teachers don't even have certificates to teach. The school is a magnet for international students as they know they can dump their kids off, let them run wild without green card issues coming up. So as far as training the next gen of Judsters, who knows? I would say it is not likely, as I know many parents who have raised their children in other hard core belief scenarios and when they got old enough, they are OUTTA there.

2. JZ Rose store in Bellevue - anybody been there? Not a Ram book, tape, CD, DVD anywhere. not one. Smack dab in the middle of Microsoft-land, where an average home costs $450,000. I guess these folkies don't have to learn about creating fabulous wealth, but what about learning how to be a Christ? Why isn't this very expensive storefront being used for Ram-cruitment? Isn't this a bit inconsistent?

3. FINALLY, WHY when you explain a problem or struggle to a ramster do they IMMEDIATELY have to point out your VICTIM SELF to you - as a rationale of the situation? It is so consistently weird. Here I am, facing the unknown if you will, up against - whatever - and their automatic, pull-my-string interpretation is that I have fallen into my deep, dark hole - living out of my victim self? I didn't even whine. How do you tackle life's issues then? change? .. cause I didn't say, 'well, I just did C&E till hypoxic, went into major denial, and then contemplated my 'new' reality where I have ALWAYS LIVED - this problem just doesn't exist anymore. I can barely tell anything to ram-brains anymore - the response is always the same, no matter who the personand it is so inauthentic.

4. I do have a question for the EMF site - why do people use (copyrighted) after big R's name sometimes and not others? Threaders don't put TM after C&E, or Blue Body etc. Anyway, are we going to court anytime soon & I just don't know about it? Using anything other than JR - am I violating copyright law? I prefer to use JR or J/R as it doesn't continually pollute spiritual ethers or the atmosphere of the EMF rehab center. Thee word is power, right - ala NLP??

nuf for today

Hi Agape,

About CSE: I have heard plenty of criticisms, also. The same issues you mentioned. A little problem exists on this plane; one needs to read and write (LITERACY) in order to function easily in society. There are plenty of adults who are burdened with some level of illiteracy, and it’s a shame that they weren’t taught what they needed when they were youth. I often wonder how many of those children will grow up and leave the fold. If they don’t have the proper educational skills, perhaps there is cause for taking action with regard to educational neglect ? Children have a RIGHT to be educated, if not a legal mandate. Each state has different laws on this matter.

I was unaware of what you shared about the JZ Rose-Bellevue store. Yes, very interesting ! I can understand why you would question it as being inconsistent, too.

“WHY when you explain a problem or struggle to a ramster do they IMMEDIATELY have to point out your VICTIM SELF to you - as a rationale of the situation?”

Because they have accepted the teaching that we create our reality – unconditionally. So, despite the fact that they have not received …. Whatever…. Because as Ramtha has even said, students have not received certain manifestations because of the student not being frequency specific with what they say they want. Therefore, because they only accept self blame, then the paradox is they must either then believe that their manifestation is about to unfold (we’ve heard this for over 20 years in many cases), or they must admit that, gee, we do not always get what we manifest. The student usually doesn’t want to face THAT – so if YOU face them with that questioning, you’re rattling their cage and they lash out by calling names. Flies in the face of everyone having their own truth and not judging, eh ?

I remember years ago, around 93 – 95 or 96…Ramtha addressed the students (he was not pleased) and how they walked around trying to copy him; dress, language, repeating/quoting Ramtha-isms, instead of having their own real conversation. So phony. It made me laugh as I had noticed and felt the same way, and had recently had that conversation with a then-current student, who also felt the same way. He called them fanatics. He has called certain students fanatics, thoughout the years.

Why do people use various ways on this forum, to refer to Ramtha ? It’s just personal choice. It’s perfectly fine to reference the name of someone, without having to use a copyright ! The copyright is on the USE of the name – so you can’t go out and say YOU are teaching Ramtha’s teachings. JZ has that protected. I think some of the references people use on there reflect their own personal choices. I sometimes with put “Ramtha” in quotes, because my reference is to a being that may/may not exist and that’s what I mean by that. Personally, I find it easier to know that when something is referenced, that JZ said, or that Ramtha said, it is not to validate/invalidate that the poster is saying they believe Ramtha does/doesn’t exist – but – it is for the ease of understanding what “face” was being presented to the students, when something was said. That’s all.

Hope this helps.

JZ has protected the right to MAKE MONEY.

I simply use 'copyrighted' after Ramtha 'copyrighted' because i wasn't sure in which matters the name can be used and by whom. Really interesting is the Hindu story the Ramayana where they celebrate their biggest holiday of the year. It's all about the exit of the 'Ram' after years of exile in the forest. I also read in Judy's book 'State of Mind' her then dentist husband was reading Edgar Cayce and found something about 'the day the Ram came down from the mountain.' I purchased the Edgar Cayce book but haven't read it yet. The Hindu Ram had a wife name Sita and studied the 'chakra' as the body's energy vortex system and was a just man. I've read this and so much eastern philosophy I considered myself buddhist before going to rse. I recognized things I read about the holotropic breathing and the elevation of the kundalini - it's pronounced 'koon-da-leenee' and i've heard it mispronounced at the school by a major teacher. It's not a huge deal but I did expect accuracy. The greeting of crown chakra to crown chakra of the masters on all fours, head to head, is exactly what the buddhists do. The gesturing of the hands together is so very eastern and is done even in Japan, India, Nepal, what remains of Tibet (China), and is used with the words 'namaste' - 'the divine within me honors the divine within you.' It's ALL old ancient stuff that is taught. I would really be interested to read anything about the research if Ramtha (copyrighted) as he said he is the 'Ram' of the hindus people and how their stories structure this. More reading I will be doing. Joe if you are reading can you help me with this?

Whenever R said HE was Ram of the Hindu tradition, I always just about puked. I never did accept that lie, (although I did suck down others.) This might have been the point of discernment that, finally with the other verbal sewage so depraved, my mind said NO MORE. 'Impersonating' a spiritual legacy that millions sing praise of. I mean really, what an alter ego that woman has.

Hindu Ram & Sita are universally loved in all households in India. Where Ram is venerated, his energetic signature is quite palpable, even distinct from other deities in the pantheon, like Shiva. Quite different, from Mr. Big Guy of Enlackment.

I am really moving thru my process, thru the layers of hoodwinking that has gone down. 'Teachings' sound similar to other spiritual material - used to build crediblity. NO THING is true other than a 20+ yr ruse has taken place, creating in its wake a destructive belief system (cult) to make one enterprising woman wealthy. no research required, G2G...

If you investigate court cases involving JZK inc. or JZ Knight you will come to the conclusion that litigation is instigated, or threatened to be instigated, when copyrighted, or trademarked material is used, or potentially used, for COMMERCIAL purposes by someone else.

A Google search will come up with court cases involving either.

"in Judy's book 'State of Mind' her then dentist husband was reading Edgar Cayce"
In the Dialogue Days of the mid '80's Judy would come out and talk to the audience before her Ramtha would come out. Judy consistently made a very emphatic point about how she hadn't known anything about any of what we would now refer to as "new age" stuff prior to Ramtha coming to her - ie about channels or psychic phenomena or reincarnation etc.etc.etc. --- The early material always reminded me of Cayce Reading material (which, ILR and Hope, is why it sounded so loving) -- I missed the reference in her novel that her husband was reading a Cayce related book!!!

But was hubby reading Cayce or was that a line? My knowingness says she was reading Cayce!

i looked into the hindutradition.and i read shortversioms of the ramajana.the exlanation of the apes in rams castel made me allways upset.he claimed that he lived in solitude in his hut and the apes lived in his castel.thats why the hindus worship apes.thats rubish.the hindus worshuipp hanuman.he was the rams devoted genaral.he could fly with the wind.he was very strong.he transported a whole mountain because it was to dark to find a herb.that how you often see his image[carrying the mountain flying through the skyes or greet the ram].this scriptures are older than the new testament.the obvious not knowing of a other culture from whom he claimes to be the source of theire religion was one of the 1. red flags i choose to ignore.a speaker on the ranch showed a more belivable explanation.he stated that the homosapians is much older than known up to now and that they coexisted with neandertallike beeings.which makes more sense to me.

''''But was hubby reading Cayce or was that a line? My knowingness says she was reading Cayce''''

I have to clarify this. After Ramtha appeared to her, in her book she states her husband was reading Cayce and found Cayce mentioned the day the 'Ram" came down from the mountain. But her biography says a lot of things about her mother having psychic abilities which Judy inherited, and also she had seen a UFO and another incident at a slumber party with her friends when she was a tween, if I remember correctly. I will look it up in the book. I read the other girls didn't remember, or they remembered her passing out and a voice saying 'I have possessed this body for a long time.' I thought the name was Charles, but I read elsewhere it was Demian or something along that line. I'll search through the book again. Interesing though that some things I've read say she was married and other places say it was her fiance. He was into pyramids and the new age things, for lack of a better term. I wonder what happened to him.

Why did JZ win the court case against Jeff? Why did those officials validate the Ramtha Phenomenon, using all those scientists? and then came Mr. Meltons book? Was there a set up of some kind in a big way to keep the school rolling?
Inconsistancy:
I heard a tape recording at the arena one day after a week long event was ending..Ram talking about how he met his Soulmate, who I guess he couldnt get close enough to when she was being carried on her throne...before the village where she was, was raided and she was found, by Him, in some hovel after having been raped and pillaged...he described in detail how he came upon her cowered in a corner, and how she didnt recognize him and how her eyes were crazed, you know, after such an event I guess as rape...but then he described how he turned and left her there, as there was just no getting thru to her, and so OH well, maybe next lifetime he would find her ina saner space. Does anyone remember that version? { I hope I summed it up correctly, maybe my own memory of the story is flawed..]
I thought to myself, ****, he knows not very much...if all he could do was leave her there. What an ass! And what cruelty also, to judge her in that state as unfit to be loved and tended to in such a time of need..and in DEED if she "didnt recognize" him, all the more reason to hang in there patiently, and HELP HER as opposed to abandoning her, like she was a lost cause. Didnt know much psychology in those days I guess.
I lost respect for his celibate wisdom at that event['93].
I got to thinking this guy really knows not much about Sex and Women after all..and now I wonder if thats why hes allowing orgies, and is stuck in the light for a never ending meal, if people keep going there for that experience. And gee, has anyone seen HIM have Sex at these events? Or is he just watching?
What COULD be the point of it all?
I and some others long ago concluded that Ramtha did everything already KNOWN in life as a human, EXCEPT SEX...then has the gaul to claim he understands it and doesnt need to go there anymore.
We then decided ascention isnt everything if indeed you can leave "parts of yourself" back here in human land, and have to be drawn back to endeavor reconnection..claim its WE who need the help evolving...

seeallsides:
yes, my recollection of the soul mate story is the same. and his "soul mate" is in the school.
my thoughts exactly-what a narcissitic a$$.

agape:
"why do people use (copyrighted) after big R's name sometimes and not others? "
I use it facetiously
"3. FINALLY, WHY when you explain a problem or struggle to a ramster do they IMMEDIATELY have to point out your VICTIM SELF to you - as a rationale of the situation? It is so consistently weird. Here I am, facing the unknown if you will, up against - whatever - and their automatic, pull-my-string interpretation is that I have fallen into my deep, dark hole - living out of my victim self? I didn't even whine. How do you tackle life's issues then? change? .. cause I didn't say, 'well, I just did C&E till hypoxic, went into major denial, and then contemplated my 'new' reality where I have ALWAYS LIVED - this problem just doesn't exist anymore. I can barely tell anything to ram-brains anymore - the response is always the same, no matter who the personand it is so inauthentic. "

I could not agree MORE!!

I soooo totally am not a victim.
am just here sharing my experiences.
Once in a great while I will share MHO.
The rhetoric is astounding! to say the least.

In the presence of many RSE students a person cannot even have honest expression anymore.

One has to have a "happy face" just like the rest of civilized hypocrisy so that everyone perpetuates the delusion that things on this planet are just fine.

If you really think so take a look at the news and current affairs shows on TV.

In the early years of RSE Ramtha stated that the students of RSE were "changing the consciousness" of the entire earth. That is around 1992 at the latest. A lot of students went around with this big smile on their faces having the certitude they were altering the course of humanity's destiny.

Do you see the effects of their labour reflected in the world today? What a profound insight.

G2, Here is a link to a bit more info on "Demias."

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/22819.html?1153474693

"In the presence of many RSE students a person cannot even have honest expression anymore."

I could not have said it better myself.
I just let them talk if I have to encounter a RSE 'student'.
Otherwise, I am my own best company

To save everyone looking it up on FACTNet this piece was written by Mathew Morell.

The thread is called : The Four Faces of JZ: Demias, Charles, Jesus, Ramtha

Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 5:15 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
During her childhood, JZ was with her friends at a slumber party when, according to eye witnesses, she fell to the ground seemingly possessed by a spirit that called himself “Demias.” The eyewitness reported this incident on a 1987 episode of 20/20. The eyewitness also claimed to remember the words that Demias said during the possession. “I have possessed this body for a long time,” Demias reportedly said. Apparently, JZ has forgotten the event or refuses to discuss it. Certainly the event, if it were true, would discredit the notion her believers might have: that Ramtha has always been the sole occupant of JZ’s body.

According to Jeff Knight (JZs ex-husband), JZ channeled more than just Ramtha. After contracting AIDs, and quitting RSE, he confessed that JZ also channeled a spirit called “Charles,” but that this spirit was used only in private sessions for the purpose of advising them on horse buying and selling. “Charles” was an equestrian from the nineteenth century.

Oddly enough, Gordon Melton does not mention either Demias or Charles in his 1998 book on RSE. Neither does he mention that JZ channeled Jesus around 1985. Recordings of this channeling session are strange and baffling. JZ is heard screaming angrily as she channeled Jesus.



Source for this post:

1. 20/20: the 1987 episode.

2. Joe Szimhart, July, 1998. “Book Review/essay,” Ramthamelt. Site accessed July, 21, 2006. http://home.dejazzd.com/jszimhart/ramtha.htm

Hi Christel –

It wasn’t just in 1992 that Ram (right-it’s copied) told students of RSE they were "changing the consciousness" of the planet – he said it at this past new year’s eve. And you are right – everyone just got real smiley and proud-like. So here’s this group, against doing anything political (‘can’t, would be giving it power’) allowing our leaders to run our country right into the ground, due to our apathy and consumption and greenhouse fumes. School dogma. But seeing these hamsters preening, basking in their 'efforts': 'you have no idea how much your work has shifted the consciousness.’ Such a dark joke - actually part of the 'bring on the Rapture', type thinking, given Judy's past, paying it forward. Esp. all that focus of preparations, every DAY - something to do w/the loss of civilized being. whew.. Ft Lewis 'interpol' listens in, stocks 'munitions (course) and hamsters stock food. but, let me ask: who'gonna be eating if something disrupts Amrika or Gaia? the military trained killer or the one mumbling w/the 5 gallon buckets?

My 'amster analogy: seeing those little creatures in their little plastic houses, loving to shred those cardboard rolls again and again. doin’ the same thing ALL the time, chom, chomp chomp, the same stuff over & over again..

and yes, Tree, we are our own best company. I am glad to see that you seem to be feeling your own solid ground again.

Hailing McMillan, who started this thread - haven't heard from you in some time. Did the lunar occultation get ya?

sending loving kindness..inner peace.
a

"Hailing McMillan, who started this thread - haven't heard from you in some time. Did the lunar occultation get ya?
"

MMcMillan is in the process of relocating out of state last I heard. She'll touch base later on, when she's settled.

Thanks for asking about her. I'm sure she'll appreciate it if/when she reads this.

''''G2, Here is a link to a bit more info on "Demias."

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/22819.html?1153474693''''

Thank you, Christel.
On my way there.

Hi Agape, just for the record I will be moving back to Texas around the latter part of May to stay with one of my sisters & family. I haven't posted much lately as I reached a crisis point about 3 weeks ago when I called the Women's Crisis Clinic. They suggested I ask for medical and other assistance from the state. The woman helping me stated that I "need to help myself, not be looking for a job." She was absolutely right. I've been trying to change this course of my life for the last 8 years & haven't been able to. The anxiety & panic disorders have caused immeasurable physical problem with my digestive tract. It escalates when the panic escalates. I finally realized I can't do this by myself. When I read the information on www.refocus.org the other day, which an EMF poster sent me, I was appalled. I was aware of some of the mental disorder I'm experiencing, but to read it & see it in black & white was astounding. I read all the papers posted by the psychological health counselors on that website. It really opened my eyes as to the damage that was done & why I haven't been able to get "straight" by myself. Thank you for asking about me. I appreciate any support that is given at this time. M.

please e-mail me.
I had the same thing.
You will not, after meeting with Joe.
I guarentee it.
Soon , I will post my subsequent story.
hold on....

M. McMillan is referring to an excellent and informative website, www.refocus.org. Carol Giambalvo leads this group and has posted here on EMF. Simply search her name (in the white box at the top of this page) and you can read her EMF comments.

Another excellent website belongs to the International Cultic Studies Association.

http://www.icsahome.com

There is much to learn in order to understand what actually goes on in cults. Fortunately it is all very readable except that it is shocking to realize one's naivete has been taken advantage of.

thank you everybody who has posted the last few days on this thread, MM, Tree, EWO, as I am deep in the inquiry of 'what's next' for me and I am finding it kind of a blank - not really my typical M.O. So I am taking a few steps back, wondering, well wonder if this stuff went in deeper than I imagined? What if some 'beliefs' are more insidious and embedded so that it may not be so obvious? I am seeing that the DTC stuff a particularly bad 'worm'. It's like debugging your computer for viruses or the latest worms. Cleaning it all out is time-consuming and inter-related. I am coming to the conclusion I have more work to do than I initially thought. So, Tree, I am interested in your story, interaction w/Joe when you chose to share it. I really don't want to mess with this phase of my life any longer than I have to, so I want to spill the can of worms. It is interesting how I can read everybody's posts, but it's taken some time to get past the 'yea, uhhuh, yup' to where you resonate to the voices of others that flags start waving.. I don't think #years enrolled in RSE is necessarily indicative of the embeddedness of certain tenets, beliefs - depends on what religion, new age na-na-na-na you come from before J/R. ALL pertinent stuff to me now. Pandora's box is open! And the Derren Brown, NLP stuff - wow, makes you really wonder what part of me isn't signed, sealed & delivered by some outside referent point...omg

Perhaps the following will sound familiar to many who read here:
excerpt from: “Thought Reform Programs and the Production of Psychiatric Casualties”
Margaret Thaler Singer, Ph. D., Richard Ofshe, Ph. D. Psychiatric Annals 20:4, April, 1990
· maintaining a closed system of logic and an authoritarian structure in the organization and
· maintaining a non-informed state existing in the subject.
The last two conditions(the two above) work because there is no effective way for the subject to influence the system and because the program moves along in such a way that the subject is unaware of being changed for a hidden organizational purpose. In a closed system of logic, criticism or complaints are handled by showing the subject that he or she is defective, not the organization. Observations may be turned around and argued to mean the opposite of what the critic intended. When a subject questions or doubts a tenet or rule, attention is called to factual information that suggests some internal contradiction within the belief system or a contradiction with what the subject has been told: the criticism or observation is "turned around" and the subject made to feel he or she is wrong. In effect the subject is told, "You are always wrong; the system is always right." The system refuses to be modified except by executive order. In addition, by keeping a subject in a non-informed state, he or she functions in an environment to which he or she is forced to adapt in a series of steps, each sufficiently minor so that the subject does not notice change in him- or herself and does not become aware of the goals of the program until late in the process (if ever).
The tactics of a thought reform program are organized lo destabilize individuals' sense of self by getting them to drastically reinterpret their life's history, radically alter their world view, accept a new version of reality and causality, and develop dependency on the organization, thereby being turned into a deployable agent of the organization operating the thought reform program.
http://www.refocus.org/mental.html

Agape, It might be of value to ask yourself "What makes me happy?" and then take the best available opportunities under the present circumstances of your life. Life is best lived doing things things that make you happy and keeping the company of those whom you enjoy.

After RSE involvement it is quite a potential that these things are very limited according to personal circumstance. In that case I would recommend taking the best offers available for happiness according to your own viewpoint.

Developing the ability to think critically is essential. Many of us tend to associate the word critical with "criticism" and that is one meaning. An equally valid meaning is "exercising careful judgment."

Judgment is an RSE trigger word. According to Ramtha, there is NO JUDGMENT ALLOWED. According to Ramtha, to judge something is to judge oneself (in saying this she has created a conundrum - a mental dead end.)

How about replacing the word judgment with discernment? It is an essential part of thinking.

On the topic of happiness, Dr. Jennifer Michael Hecht takes a "critical" look at it in her recent book, "The Happiness Myth." Thought provoking.

Dr. Hecht's specialty is the history of science and she writes from that perspective.

She has also written, "Doubt." A history of the great doubters and their legacy of innovation from Socrates and Jesus to Thomas Jefferson and Emily Dickinson.

thanks Christel & Cynical for your inputs...

I did go to reFocus and copy/paste a bunch of the articles to read, eg, education being an avenue OUT.

And yes, enjoying what makes me content: nature, outdoors, reading, being creative. From the beginning of this magic carpet ride, I resented any potential role as a 'deployable agent' for this school. I mean, I won't even wear clothes w/labels, peoples names on it. But, if you are a credible person, just your mere presence endorses the goings-on.

I have been exploring all 'new age' cults from the Christian perspective from est to Findhorn to gurus - I mean, even the Sierra Club is included! My whole adult life, simmering in a sauce of notions that I picked up in college. Seems I've been a cult-junkie for a while!

Makes me realize my journey has been a wild ride, varied in it's intensity and 'pressure' to conform, but I made it out of the slippery slope before. My journey for SURE doesn't end here, in a living graveyard of ram-speak. The end-analysis for me is that it is BAD playhouse, a poor amalgamation of new age ideas strung together for maximum financial impact. Noneheless, repetitive & boring. 20 years? that is sad. But for me, a good lesson in discrimination in joining groups - that I get to see - in the worst possible light - how such concepts once accepted can entomb versus enlighten.

Hi Agape, Prior to RSE I always followed the path of personal enthusiasm/happiness and I found if I applied myself I got what I dreamed.

I wanted to be a top horse rider in my country and accomplished that goal, in the field of dressage, after many years of application and expert tuition.

Though I participated in all forms of horse riding as a young adult and was quite successful at it my preference and best capacity was at dressage.

One of my instructors was also the dressage instructor for the Australian Olympic Equestrian teams...for many years. Two of those teams won the gold medal. He taught only the dressage component of a 3 Day event team ...that incorporates also cross country jumps, showjumping and a steeplchase course.

My instructor prior to coming to Australia taught at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna....the top educational facility in the world for dressage riding.

I found him a very wise man an very insightful into both animal and human behaviour.....he had to deal with those wealthy riders that had a big bank account and big attitudes.

It took about 15 years until I easily won a top competition in the country. My efforts and will produced RESULTS.

Not so at RSE. The same amount of effort and will produced next to nothing except the wisdom of being cheated and conned.

A good teacher produces results in their students and is revered by those students for their honesty, insights and ability to teach the students how to get their dreams.

it is so true about great teachers, those who inspire greatness in others and gain satisfaction in the background as the seeking of new heights, achievements of man/woman-kind does not require limelight. The coaching, active involvement, lack of importance of monetary reward.. are all hallmarks to being an exceptional teacher.

i have a friend who was quite into dressage - it is quite rigorous, so congratulations on that lifetime achievement. I hope you still enjoy riding and horses.

Hello,

i am from Germany and therefore my English may contain some failures, i excuse in advance if some people can't understand my sentences.

I was never in America nor attended at RSE (thankfully) but i am very familiar with Ramtha™'s materials which i studied over 6 years from time to time. Mostly older books and some newer online videos and interviews. Because I never went to RSE and got in touch with the unbelievable inhuman occurrences there, i thought for a long time that Ramtha™ was genuine but somehow i always got a mushy feeling about him as if something is not right. This was mainly caused by the consumption of wine, i thought it was very odd for a "master" to drink alcohol, but i just ignored it for a while.

Then i searched the internet for more information and came across pictures of him smoking pipe. That was the next inconsistency i found very alarming and also confusing.

The more i studied the materials the more inconsistencies i came across. In the moment, there are so much inconsistencies that you can barely overlook them. I will post the inconsistencies/contradictions and unclear statements that I've encountered so far as good as i can.

As many people have noticed, JZ Knight COPIED everything from other spiritual/occult/esoteric sources into her own mix of teachings, creating a tremendous amount of contradictions.

1. It was stated by many people here, and i share that attitude, that there is a clear difference between the "old" (80s) and the "new" (90s,2000s) Ramtha™. He went from a very high level of spirituality to the lowest form of abuse. The teachings took a turn to a materialistic area, possibly to attract a wider audience with "exact scientific explanations". The side effect of this is, that the teachings appear very cold and not spiritual at all.

2. The entire theme of "emotions" were turned into the opposite. From "emotions as the greatest treasure" to "emotions as the greatest addiction". "Doctor" Greg made a statement about this contradiction, in which he explains that they differ between "chemical" emotions and somewhat "true" emotions but personally, i think it was too clouded formulated and did not quite understand it either.

3. One thing i also noticed is that JZ Knight constantly flirts with her interviewers on radio shows. If she is directly asked to give a statement about a demonstration about her powers or something like that, she blocks (like in the Dave Ross Show) and then says that if she's wrong it's because of different timelines. She also repeats the same old information (advertising) over and over again in nearly every interview so that no real answers are given, IMO.

4. Another inconsistency is that Ramtha refuses to show himself in person because he does not want to be worshipped (same reason that Penny Torres used to justify why Mafu isn't showing up). Then, Ramtha said that one day he will show himself to the audience in his light body. Well, and recently he says things like "Oh baby i am the greatest teacher you ever had! Look at me! (heavy applause from the students)" which clearly shows at me that he has no problem with people worshiping and submitting to him. So why doesn't he descend to the "Hertzian plane"..?

5. I remember that he made the statement "I am not a teacher of truth, but of philosophy", but i remember saying him the opposite "I am not a teacher of philosophy, but of truth". Very obscure.

6. JZ Knight once told a story in which Ramtha™ warned her in the 70s or so, about rednecks that would attack her family, so her family left the house and she claimed that later it got destroyed just like Ramtha™ predicted. If Ramtha™ has such powers and always said that he will protect his "beloved daughter" then why did he allow that JZ got shot at the ranch? Now they have built a fence for protection. Where were Ramtha™'s extraordinary capabilities back then? And why does he have to rely on "Red Guards" to keep everything "safe"?

7. Ramtha said that he has the "power to change the moon into gold" but instantly retracts by saying "but that would pale if I could change people into Gods, and that is my mission", so it is save to assume that it's a lie to attract people. From what i've heard, his powers are very limited and not that "outrageous", like swearing, yelling, drinking, smoking, etc.

8. The early teachings were clearly against drugs. Now he mutated into a pipe sucking, wine & prozac junkie.

9. Anyone remember the "bitter water" (plain water with citron) era? He let people chose between red wine and "bitter water", both were said to enhance awareness/consciousness. As far as i know, he dumped the water long time ago and switched from fine water to die-hard coarse alcohol/wine.

10. Ramtha told a story that in his lifetime on earth, he went to a forest that he called "Shamballa" with a group of people. This is also recycled from other sources, like tibetian bhuddism or the books of Baird T. Spalding (books that Ramtha™/JZ recommended quite often).

11. Ramtha stated he "had no teacher but nature". Then what purpose do all those disciplines have? He certainly did not practice C&E or any of this stuff back in his lifetime...

12. The whole Mafu-Clone saga. I've read elsewhere that Mafu said that he was Ramtha™, and because nobody believed in the Ram™, he had to show up as Mafu. What the hell was going on there?

13. On BTO "Doctor" Greg said that they had a "glass wine with the Ram™" and talked about the infamous "Days to Come". Ramtha™ said that "every country that makes this wine deserves to be preserved". I don't know but that sounds not humorous, either very "discretionary", as if Ramtha™ had the power to save the whole world but only would save the countries that produce his beloved wine. Kinda sick in my eyes.

14. JZ addressed in an interview that it's important to "being humble". But if you look at JZ's lifestyle, multimillion dollar mansion plus interior decoration, faked problems to get money from the students, policy to not share the teachings with others, and so on, that's just downright hypocritical.

15. There is a contradiction in the meaning of Ramtha™'s name. Ramtha™ said that his name means "Capricorn/Ibex" and another time he said that his name would mean "Father" or something like that. Seems that the omnipotent one isn't so sure about his name after all. Not to mention that "Ramtha™" is also the name of a town and possibly a modification of the hinduistic "Rama", IMO.

16. Although i never read about it, the teaching of the "light beings" that would eat one persons soul or memory after physical death was contrary to Ramtha™'s theory of reincarnation and the ability of the brain to know one's past and future.

17. On a video on Ramtha™'s website s/he speaks about corporations and states that "they don't care about you". But what if a student has lost all his money and cannot attend RSE? Then JZ will give a **** about you, too.

18. "Doctor" Greg said on BTO that there is a school of levitation, and that would be RSE (of course). He also said that the school would threaten some authorities because it would demonstrate psychic powers publicly. I doubt that anyone has witnessed such a demonstration of an advanced psychic skill, or has anyone? All the stories of these miracles are just hearsay, they do not record them on video or anything.

19. Ramtha™ made many statements that are considered as untrue by modern science. Ramtha™ said that the menstrual cycle of a woman would go in line with the moon cycle and that you could see if a person were brilliant or not by looking in their brain after physical death.

20. Ramtha™'s symbol of the pyramid with the inner circle is a strong resemblance of the "All Seeing Eye". A symbol that is associated with dark forces and conspiracy groups.

21. Ramtha™ said that he had millions of followers at the "32nd Universe" or something like that. But nobody knows what that means. What exactly is this 32nd universe? Does Ramtha™ created a catalogue in which he numbered every "many worlds concept" parallel universe that exists?

22. Another hassle is the story of creation of humans. He said that we were spiritual gods that created humanoid bodies to experience the physical realm and that we were divine and conscious about our powers in the early beginnings of creation, but simply forgot them. Suddenly Ramtha™ came up with the story of the Annunaki, the intervention of aliens with humanoids, and said that it was only because of their superior DNA that we could reach our full potential now.

23. The story of Ramtha™ himself is not believable. He said that he went to a mountain to see the "unknown god" of his people and a miraculously female angel showed up and gave him a sword out of the blue. When he came down from the mountain he miraculously changed to a strong man. Who was this woman? Why didn't he clarify these miraculous incidents and the even more miraculous materialization of the sword?

24. The early Ramtha™ was against racism and said that god is within everybody. He said that the hypocrisy of people towards persons with black skin were disgusting to him. Now I've heard people talking about Ramtha™ making statements that enlightened DNA must be pure and the like. No surprise since the teachings went from a spiritual way to total materialism of brains, genes and quantum science.

25. Ramtha™ constantly talks about that you are the observer and that you change reality just by watching your environment. He said that if you are asleep, your room begins to fade and to destabilize. Much like the riddle of "does a tree make a sound if it falls down to the ground and nobody is there to hear it?". That's nonsense, for example, if you are alone and asleep or comatose for a long time and you live in a skyscraper, your floor would dissolve and you would fall and possibly get injured or die. According to Ramtha™ the earth is only held together by the observation of humans. It seems to me that this does directly target people that are very naive. A sub-molecular change means nothing if we experience the macro world.

26. Ramtha™ said that you need to awake and raise your kundalini before you can affect the physical realm so directly, now you obviously need nothing to do in order to change your environment, but unfortunately that does not work for people and they still believe it because the copyright-ghost "Ramtha™" said so.

27. Ramtha™ said that some UFOs are biological in nature and that our DNA has the same capability, to defy gravity. But if we have the capability to even flight into space, we would need oxygen to survive. You cannot simply fly into space if your body can't be sustained with oxygen or some kind of advanced prana nourishment.

It would not wonder me if there are more inconsistencies and contradictions, but i think this post is long enough now.

K,

"23. The story of Ramtha™ himself is not believable. He said that he went to a mountain to see the "unknown god" of his people and a miraculously female angel showed up and gave him a sword out of the blue. When he came down from the mountain he miraculously changed to a strong man. Who was this woman? Why didn't he clarify these miraculous incidents and the even more miraculous materialization of the sword?"

One theory that would bring this story into consistancy would be;

If JZs story of her upbringing is true, then, like any writer of fiction, she has drawn on her own experiences and is attempting to master them in her writings ("teachings")

She is no longer a weak little girl, unable to protect herself from abuse, the abuse that her caregivers were "Blind" to. She created this female savior who gave the sword to a "strong man" so that she might be avenged.

All the characters are her in this play, both literaly and figuatively.

That's a good point JTR.
K, can you give us some references (books, web links, recordings...)
on some points you listed in your post ?
Especially point number 2 on emotions.
I would love so much to show my girlfriend these contradictions
written black on white in those books she cherish so much
or hearing it herself, although she doesn't understand a single word in english !
I wonder why she got all those tapes and disks...

Thanks !

JZ Knight is living out a comic-book fantasy and only at the expense of good, patriotic men like me that fought and shed blood to guarantee her right of "free speech". Unfortunately, the Founding Fathers never conceived of the notion of bipolar freaks manifesting their psychosis on naive citizenry. She has debts that WILL BE PAID.

Trust me on this one.

I do trust you Tyger

druid,

I have reference many times from the white book about what R says about emotions. My copy is buried some where, but I know it is within the first 30 pages, I seem to recal it being 23-25. It is where r/jz is explaining what it will teach in the school it went something like this.....you will learn the greatest treasure on this plane, emotion.

Journey, that sheds new light on the story of Ramtha™, when you take into account that JZ was abused as a child, then this story is like an exploration through her psyche.

Druid, on point 2 about emotions: The original teaching of emotions can be found in the so called "White Book" titled "RAMTHA". In my (German) version it says on page 17 "God is not a word. He is an emotion..." (!) "...that lives in everyone of us. And the more limitless your perception of God, the more great and joyful this emotion will be while it embraces more and more of this sentiment, that's called God, the almighty."

On page 22 "The body, that you occupy, is a great creation of gods - of you and your loving brothers..." (also no mention of Annunaki extraterrestrials) "It was created so that you, an invisible entity of thoughts and emotions..." (!) "...can interact with life that you created on this plane."

"Your soul remembers and saves every thought that you ever thought in form of emotions. Because of the unique combination of emotions..." (!) "...that are saved in your soul, you have a unique identity or personality"

On page 23 "Everything you think of will manifest in your inner being in form of emotions"

"Every thought, every fantasy and every intention will create an emotion in your body, that will be saved in your soul. This emotion then is the requirement for the events in your life, because it will pull circumstances in your life, that exactly fit with the emotion that is saved in your soul..."

Page 28 "Always trust the wisdom of your emotions"

On nearly every page you will find the word "emotion" at least once.

Page 94 "Because of your ability, to think every thought and feel it in your soul, you've got the key to the kingdom of heaven: the treasure of emotions"

Page 97 "You've got the biggest treasure in your life, emotions, memories, that are recored in your soul"

That are only a few excerpts on emotions from the whole book. If you take a look at the new teaching on emotions, for example here http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3323280013309603904 at 09:45 (how appropriate, he's sucking on a pipe at that moment so much for his anti-drug attitude and "ascended" and "non-abusive" conditions). The new teaching that emotions are addictions that must be overcome is floating pretty much everywhere around. You may also take a loot at the chat transcripts at the bottom of: http://ramtha.com/html/community/chatroom/chat.stm

The interview with "Doctor" Greg in which he explains this contradiction can be found somewhere on BTO: http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/gregsimmons.shtml and in his book "These Things You Shall Do - And Greater". Just search for "emotion" on BTO, unfortunately i can't remember which one it was, i think I've got it straight from his book but i have no doubt that it's addressed in an interview there.

Now as for the rest of the points.

1. The movie "What the Bleep do we know?" is a good example that the teachings made a turn to explain everything in scientific terms. Also you may want to listen to various interviews with JZ Knight on http://ramtha.tv/index.html in the right corner under "FREE ONLINE AUDIO". These interviews also cover point 3 (JZ flirting to avoid giving answers)

4. The excuse made by Penny Torres can be found here: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1625632627740841175 The same excuse is used by JZ Knight. I've read it in the "White Book" on page 3 "To avoid that you will worship me, i did not came to you in my own embodiment". The statement that he will show his light body one day, when "we are more advanced" can be found either in the books "A Masters Reflection On The History Of Humanity" by Ramtha™ or "The Mystery of Birth and Death" also by Ramtha™ i think. I've didn't got the books here at the moment to search the page.

5. I can't remember where the statement came from in which he exchanged the two words, either a book or a video floating around the net. But it's a newer one (90s or 2000s)

6. I think the statement with Ramtha™ predicting this event came from an introduction speech from JZ at some dialogue event, I've read it in a book of Ramtha™. I could not find information on the attempted assassination of JZ Knight and the building of the fence in a rush, but i know it's out there.

7. This statement can be found here: http://ramtha.com/lofty.js "I have the fortitude and the power to change the moon into gold, but that would pale if I could change people into Gods, and that is my mission." As for the swearing and such, this forum is the best place to find evidence.

8. "White Book" page 93: "Everytime you take drugs, you limit your ability to know". Wine, Pipes, Prozac: http://www.ramtha.com/newsletter/ and http://www.physicsofchange.com/ and the chat transcripts, for example http://www.ramtha.com/html/community/chatroom/4-24chat.pdf "Lav > The 3 best things that have happened to me are #1 Ram #2 Prozac #3 red wine". It's virtually everywhere if you do a little searching.

9. "Bitter water" shows up on Ramtha™'s intensive on "Soulmates" that took place the 10. January 1986 which was printed as a book. Then came the "Wine Ceremonies".

10. The story oh Ramtha™ walking into a forest named "Shamballa" is from "A Masters Reflection On The History Of Humanity". For other references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamballa and "Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East" by Baird Thomas Spalding.

11. See http://ramtha.com/html/community/teachings/default.stm and then "I Had No Teacher But Nature".

12. Search the forum for Mafu, it's here somewhere.

13. Either it's on http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/raptor/gregsimmons111507-HR-1.ram or http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/raptor/gregsimmons111507-HR-2.ram what's also interesting that they talk about that Yelm is a sacred place, which is not true, see http://pub43.bravenet.com/forum/3633497066/show/662605

14. I don't know which interview it was, but i was with a woman. I think one of http://ramtha.tv/index.html

15. Ramtha™ talked about his name in various books. I can't remember which they were but they were newer. I think either "A Masters Reflection On The History Of Humanity" or "The Mystery of Birth and Death".

16. This forum has information on this. Just search for "light beings".

17. The video about the corporation bashing can be found here: http://ramtha.com/ramthaTV/ named "Corporations"

18. The "Doc" mentioned it at http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/raptor/gregsimmons111507-HR-1.ram or http://www.beyondtheordinary.net/raptor/gregsimmons111507-HR-2.ram but i think it's the second one.

19. The statement that the brain shows you how brilliant a person is if you examine it after physical death is mentioned in a Ramtha™ book about "Ancient Mystery Schools", the German entry about the brain at Wikipedia (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehirn#Leistung_des_Gehirns) clearly dismisses this point: "The historical mis belief, that brilliancy could be perceived in the (withdrawned after death) brain is as old as brain science itself and is continued even today occasionally". His statement about the menstrual cycle is in either "A Masters Reflection On The History Of Humanity" or "The Mystery of Birth and Death" i think. Nevertheless it's nothing new: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menstrual_cycle#Menstruation_and_the_moon

20. Conspiracy is a controversial area but here are some infos on the symbol: http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/All_Seeing_Eye.htm

21. Again, i think that's also from one of the newer books if i am not mistaken. "Master's Reflection" or "Mystery of Birth and Death".

22. He spoke about creation in the intensive "Soulmates" (January 1986). Reference to the Annunaki and their superior DNA can be found in "Master's Reflection".

23. His story can be found in the "White Book".

24. I think he also said that in the "White Book", if not then "Soulmates" or one of the older books. As for racism you can search the forum or read this thread: http://pub43.bravenet.com/forum/3633497066/show/657276

25. "What the Bleep do we know" and some videos that are floating around the net are good references to that. It's the newer quantum stuff.

26. Links to point 25. He spoke about the kundalini various times across his books, for example in "Mystery of Birth and Death". But always kept saying that it's necessary to awaken it before you can develop advanced mystical powers or ascend your body. On http://www.ramtha.com/html/glossary.asp you might want to check the points "Enlightenment" and "Kundalini".

27. http://youtube.com/watch?v=t1pQRyhCicQ

Hope it helps. If you search enough you will find the material you need, this forum alone is a perfect resource. I hope your girlfriend will realize that RSE is a dangerous place and that she doesn't need to pay $$$ to develop her skills. Everything Ramtha™ teaches is recycled material from other sources.

Have a nice day.

Thanks a lot K !

I found your first reference on point 2 on page 45 in the french version instead of page 17 ! So, I will extrapolate for the other referencws.

Meanwhile, I looked up myself in the ramtha book and found some references to emotions and feelings. I got a phone call from my girlfriend and we "discussed" on this topic wich we never agreed with.
This time, I had some references but, unfortunately, she left her book at her workplace (where she's trying to convince her workmates...). I asked her to note the pages references and to check up by herself tomorrow. And it ended up by a " we don't have anything more to tell each other !"
Anyway, we've never been able to have a true discussion, she always brings all-over up all the ramtha stuff.

Once again, thank you for these references, I will check them all.