I just found this site/forum tonight while doing some Googling on Ramtha.

Ramtha was first mentioned to me by a friend around 1992. This friend was very spiritual, and a decent, thoughtful and generous man. I later found Ramtha's "UFO's and the Nature of Reality," and, "Last Waltz of the Tyrants." And also an audio cassette series (7 tapes, I think) from 1988 of a 'weekend intensive,' which I still have (since older recordings of Ramtha were mentioned in the opening post.)

Anyway... This friend was aware of Ramtha's teachings, but the scope his spirituality was definitely not limited to it. During one of our last conversations (I was about to move away,) around 1997, he mentioned that the Ram had been, "dropping hints," that he would be leaving. Meaning that whoever JZ would be channeling, it wouldn't be the Ram.

I understand that the forum would prefer that stories not of a first-hand nature not be posted, but I felt that this is relevent, and am curious that no one else has posted about noticing such clues from Ramtha's own words.

I have always felt that there was value in the books/tapes that I had, and after reading some of the strange accounts in this forum, I'm rather glad that what materials I do have are from before the apparent nuttiness set it. It sounds like Ramtha's punk cousin has snuck in and has taken the channeler for a joyride...

Just want to say that "yes", Ramtha has talked about leaving many times.

Initially, students were told it was going to be a 7 year school. The point of the school was to teach you to become God-man-woman realized in the flesh. After 7 years, students were told they "didn't get it" as they were just not quick/good enough.

He talked about going back to Andromeda, and based on what he said at that time, the math came out to be late 1990's that he'd leave.

In the early 90's, it was common to hear that he would only be teaching a little while longer. People got into a frenzy and were afraid to miss events.

There was also a time period when "Ramtha" left and said he wasn't coming back, because he was displeased. Well, he was gone for a short time...very short time.

It goes on and on. There are a number of stories about his leaving. Or, his threats to.

What Whatchamacallit says is correct. The first time I heard Ramtha say he was leaving was in about 1990.....not long after I had begun in the school. Quite a lot of the audience were in tears.

When I began in 1989 there were people who had lived in the local area who were already saying Ramtha had left and it was now just JZ putting on the show.

This same scenario has repeated itself quite a few times that I am aware of over the years. On one occasion 5 students decided to investigate someone channeling across the road from the Ranch. I remember sitting in an audience and Ramtha referring to "traitors" to the school. There was quite a write up about it in Spectrum magazine (in the USA). Back issues are available.

According to the magazine a lot of students left after the incident as Ramtha was very angry in the arena. This I remember. I was confused at the time as I really had very few details and was not a local resident. I had no idea of why such a tirade would be on the stage as it was totally contradictory to "allowing" others their own choices.

In the early days Ramtha said many times that if students had one teacher and none other then the teachings remain pure.

After this "I am leaving" scenario had been repeated quite a number of times it was no longer believable to me the next time it occurred.

It appeared to be a threat with a basis of manipulation and control rather than truthful information.

The differences between what Judy's Ramtha said in the late 1970's up to about '86 and what Judy's Ramtha said from '86 to '88 and then from '88 to '93 and then '93 to 2000 etc - are legion. The essential difference is most easily defined pre RSE and the RSE phase - pre RSE was about the 'power OF'- with clear unadulterated declarations by Judy's Ramtha that the power OF was far greater than 'mind over matter'. The RSE, as clearly and unadulteratedly declared by both Judy as Judy and Judy as Ramtha is that RSE is about mind over matter. Listen to any audio from prior to '87 and any audio after '88 and the difference is obvious.
My personal opinion and perspective is that the 180 degree difference between these eras of 'teachings' is NOT indicative or evidence of there being a different "ramtha" or then/not now or then/now someone else or whatever. Same Judy, same Ramtha -- different source material.
My personal opinion and perspective is that the 180 degree difference is evidence that Judy's been playing with my heart mind and soul all along.
There are consistencies throughout the entire time - mainly evidenced in Judy's marketing techniques. In another thread the leaving of Ramtha is discussed. That started at least in '84 --- JZ just couldn't do it anymore -- oh ohh ohhhhh - that was the "Dialogue Days". We immediately leaped into "Intensives". Here again - in a thread people talked about Ramtha talking about abuse ---- Intensives slimed over into the 'circles' -- in Arizona, 1986, we did circles: those who have been abused; those who abuse in mind or actuality; homosexuals -- hello all you ****** still alive - only 3 were predicted to live beyond the next decade. ... And how many times have the truth about homosexuality been changed?!!!
I digress - Judy and Ramtha have threatened to leave so many times even non Ramsters recognize/conclude and can say - oh, enrollment must be dropping - now there'll be a bunch of 'spontaneous' events that people will desperately attend in case it's the last. Another ploy along those lines is - soon you won't be able to travel here... and... it's not safe to travel anywhere else.
The other danger as I see it/have experienced it and recognize in myself - is to attribute to Ramtha (then or now) experiences, wisdom, visions, insight, whatever goodies you got. That is one of the grand lessons in my experience of and healing over with Judy's world -- don't give your power/ultimate evaluation of rightness, goodness,loveableness over to anyone. Even in Christianity to Jesus, or in Buddhism to Buddha - not to anyone. In fact the true teachers , the true myths indicate no other person is necessary for union with the Divine.

I'm leaving/ I'm staying
Dont do what I say : Im leaving
Do what I say: I'll stay

THIS IS THE VOICE OF AN ALCOHOLIC, I know, I am one, Ive done this, Ive gone to groups for this, for years...

Graced, wonderful post and points the most striking one to me being "different source material". THAT rings of absloute truth when it comes to JZ's technique for marketing the "next best thing"...

There were many Beginning retreats in the early 90's that "were going to be the last" because of earth changes, economic collapse and an inability to travel and get to school as Graced has stated.

I remember listening to a recording of a lady asking Ramtha at one of the personal assistance events if she should move closer to the school. She lived only about 60 miles away.

There was always a conflict presented. On some occasions he said, "Do not move to Yelm. It is a small place and not everyone can live here."

On other occasions Ramtha would state that it will not be possible to travel and that coming to learn was the most important thing of all. He also said that having all of one's food storage and preparations completed would allow students to study in peace whilst the world was in chaos.

In 1990 when the group Om Akad was formed it was the first great influx of foreign students. Ramtha stated, "Welcome to my refugees." An indication for things to come. Some of them are still living as illegal immigrants since those days.

On the topic of Om Akad, "Ramtha" formed groups in the school with great pomp and circumstance. Ak Men Ra was first, then Om Akad, Ieaut Alief, Ieaut Alief Sun and Moon. Have I left any out? The groups were formed in the 80's and early 90's and "Ramtha" said that they represented propensities in consciousness. Over the years "Ramtha" made a fuss over the groups by providing them with tee-shirts in order to further strengthen their identities. (Sweatshirts and pants could be purchased in the Annex.) Imagine my surprise at the end of the 2006 Primary Retreat when I saw Mike Wright overseeing the sale of the same tee-shirts and other clothing with designated group names. "Ramtha" had always specified YOU CAN ONLY WEAR THE CLOTHING OF YOUR GROUP (behavior control.) But anyone attending the 2006 Primary Retreat could buy and wear any of the group clothing they wanted to. Apparently RSE just wanted to get rid of it - and the groups had no meaning beyond control and profit.

Graced made a very good point about attributing inner experiences, visions, insight to Ramtha. That was how I got sucked in to RSE.

Think about what a great set-up it is: JZ presents a spirit named Ramtha as an omnipotent being. Then she sets the stage for creating an internal experience by inducing the trance state using any of the "disciplines" offered at RSE. Then at some point "Ramtha" appears in order to take credit for your internal experience. Works like a charm!

The truth is that I could've had those experiences elsewhere by inducing the trance state myself. But because they occurred at RSE I attributed them to "Ramtha." I was naive.

I never attributed any of my experiences to Ramtha. In fact, to be fair, I don't remember anyone even suggesting that Ramtha was the cause or source of our personal experiences at RSE. The idea was that you gain the experiences by doing the disciplines.

There are many prospective students reading these postings and I think half-truths can be presented to successfully dissuade new people to ever attend RSE. But what about the rest of us that know the complete picture (have had healings, profound ineffable experiences, OBE experiences, manifestations of wealth) and yet have legitimate questions about RSE?

How do you start an honest dialogue among people who really want to know and present the facts? In my opinion, you do your best to be fair and tell it like it really is – the whole picture to the best of your ability. It takes a lot of courage to give the positives along with the negatives about RSE, however, in my opinion, anything short of that, EMF risks being categorized as tabloid trash. I don’t think any of us want that to happen.

Lostinthedeltaquadrant, The group Elohim was formed before Ahk Men Ra.

Dorothy,
Yes, because they occured at RSE...
Although I didn't attribute them to Ramtha, I did feel that because they occured at RSE that somehow meant THAT was where I would surely stay, great teachings, etc. The old "take what you need and leave the rest" addage applies well here. For me, when "the rest" that I would leave, encomapsses ALOT of what is offered, leaving itself is the best path.

On The Fence,
I too got the idea that what I would gain was to be had from doing the disiplines.Fortunate in that I was only "in" school a short time, I never encountered many of the events many of the posters on EMF have witnessed.

I also agree that it would be wonderful to use this forum to say (without being accued of being Pro-RSE, etc.) the (our persoanl) truth about what we got from the RSE experience as well as why we decided to stop attending.

wrote a brilliant response and it got lost in cyberspace! I'll try again.
Previously I've used the example of Victor Frankl (In Search of Meaning) who realized the meaning of life in a Nazi concentration camp -- According to the logic posted here - we should all find a Nazi concentration camp to attain enlightenment.
I learned greatly, profoundly, life changingly from my experiences at Judy's place - insights and lessons that have served me well for these past 13 years. Unlike most, I hungered for the silence of Paradise Beach -- and was sincere in my efforts - and was transformed -- and awakened out of Judy's snare. I attribute none it to Ramtha or Judy or Judy's place. From my perspective, in my opinion, based on my experience, it is the intention/Ideal/motivation/sincerity through which we learn or not.
At the core of those who started this web site is the recognition that the environment and manner of teaching at JZK's profit making business incorporated is abusive.
Everything - as in EVERYTHING - taught by Judy can be found elsewhere - in a clean, wholesome, honest, complete, balanced fashion. Everything - as in EVERYTHING - can be found for free. IF you want to spend money - IF that provides value to your learning, there are honest teachers -- one workshop will do. My life was transformed by listening, for free, on the internet, to a talk by Thich Nhat Hahn - maybe 10-15 minutes. I found it by 'accident' -- It's also known as synchronicity. Chopra would call it Divine Synchronicity. We've all had such experiences. After coming into the Ramtha realm, everything got attributed to Ramtha and his so called "runners". NOOOONOOONOOO. The Divine Sacred is beyond even Ramtha - the Universal Thread weaves beyond Ramtha. If your intention is to learn, then you can learn anywhere for free.
I have learned by looking out my kitchen window and experiencing a sunrise, engaging a stray cat seeking sanctuary on my porch, sweeping my floor. I can experience the silence in my room - warm dry without the crinkling challenge of blue tarps.
Ramtha used to admantly proclaim - repeatedly - disciplines only teach discipline - you don't need them. ...... If they work for you - marvelous. They can be found elsewhere - from their source - and done in an environment of health and balance and truth that is not abusive and schizoid. To deny, to diminish, to sugar coat the fact of the abusiveness at Judy's place; to attribute learning to someone or something outside yourself and encourage others to do the same is to **** your friends to hell. It is unnecessary.
This message board was started by people whose hearts have been opened with compassion for others - to reach out and help stop the unnecessary suffering.
That is the whole truth, the whole story. Truth is free. Enlightenment is Free. Suffering unduly is not necessary unless we so choose. Please, I beg you, take off your blinders, don't encourage people to leap into a poisonous snake filled pit because you had an out of body experience.

If the basic business principles by which a Corporation operates is dishonest is it really likely that what they offer is genuine and unpolluted ?

If C and E = R then why would an ascended being use a manipulative administration to facilitate his earthly education ?

Nearly all of the main administrators of RSE infiltrated the LARSE gathering for the ulterior motive of the organization.

Can the education really be trusted if this is the consciousness running the show?

OnTheFence comments: I never attributed any of my experiences to Ramtha. In fact, to be fair, I don't remember anyone even suggesting that Ramtha was the cause or source of our personal experiences at RSE. The idea was that you gain the experiences by doing the disciplines.

REPLY: Ramtha has said on more than one occasion, that he is in charge of the school and disciplines. Because it is HIS school, he retains the right to decide if and when any student will succeed in mastering a discipline, at any given event. This is not hearsay. I have been in the audience more than once when he has stated the above. So, a student can do disciplines until the cows come home and if Ramtha wants to override your reality since he’s more powerful, you will NOT succeed. He has also reminded us numerous times that he is bigger than we are (more powerful). I just wanted to clarify that with regard to shedding more light upon your comment.

OnTheFence comments: There are many prospective students reading these postings and I think half-truths can be presented to successfully dissuade new people to ever attend RSE. But what about the rest of us that know the complete picture (have had healings, profound ineffable experiences, OBE experiences, manifestations of wealth) and yet have legitimate questions about RSE?

REPLY: Half truths ? What you stated was a half truth. I believe I filled in the other half. What “rest of us that know the complete picture” ? Many posters on this forum have talked about the metaphysical/paranormal (whatever label you want to put on that) experiences that they have had. They have had them before, during and AFTER their tenure at RSE. I am one of the posters who has mentioned those experiences; on EMF’s forum as well as FACTNet’s. Like you claim, however, I do not attribute those experiences to RSE. I attended RSE because I was told that the teacher was going to teach me knowledge that would give me the ability to achieve God-woman realization in this body, in this lifetime. Not only has that not yet happened to me, it has not happened to any man or woman in the school. The fact is, that the overwhelming majority of students who have ever passed through the entrance door, have also left through the exit door, never to return. That information, along with the honest sharing of the levels of control and abuse that go on at RSE, should be information that allows prospective students to, for the first time, make a FULLY informed choice about whether or not to attend, or to remain, in RSE. As already stated, this website’s purpose is along the line of sharing experiences that have not been allowed to be shared at RSE, lest students become ridiculed for questioning and expressing doubt. That too, has happened and been addressed on this forum as well as FACTNet.

OnTheFence comments: How do you start an honest dialogue among people who really want to know and present the facts? In my opinion, you do your best to be fair and tell it like it really is – the whole picture to the best of your ability. It takes a lot of courage to give the positives along with the negatives about RSE, however, in my opinion, anything short of that, EMF risks being categorized as tabloid trash. I don’t think any of us want that to happen.

REPLY: You are certainly free to believe EMF is worthy only of tabloid trash. I believe it’s not. I also think it takes courage to look at the painful fact that RSE has not delivered on its claims, and not need to sugar coat that in any way. Being duped is not a pleasant experience to have to face. People have said (including myself) that they have had a variety of good experiences at RSE. To say that and then equate it with recommending that someone invest their hard earned money into joining that “school”, is another thing. I personally would not recommend anyone to go there, knowing what I do about how they operate. I wish that I had not gone, but I can’t change that now. I realize now, that I could have learned the core essence of eastern theories on metaphysical and spiritual experiences and philosophies, as Graced said, for free, or nearly so. It is my opinion that RSE is enslaving to people, not empowering to them.

You mentioned healings : Yet at least one poster on this forum has asked for documentation; told it was forthcoming, and then found out that the proof was never delivered, despite repeated requests and promises that it would be. Something to hide ? If someone is a student and has a healing, then how does that relate to RSE ? People all over the world have had healings, including atheists. Perhaps the question is, what is the genuine causative variable in healings occurring for anyone, ever? Not just assuming it’s due to RSE.
Psychic phenomenon like OBE’s ? That happens to many people who never go to RSE and may books are written about “how to”. It’s nothing new.
Manifestations of wealth? Again, there are many books written on “how to” do this, and for some people, they claim they had success. Maybe they created it; maybe it was going to happen to them, anyway. It can’t be proven, to date, as far as I know.

In the early years of RSE a big lure for many of the audience were offers of getting a ride on a spaceship. Ramtha has talked extensively on the topic of UFO's in the book: "UFO's and Interdimensional Mind" and tapes of the same name.

Students are always looking into the sky at night hoping that that promised ride is coming........

re spaceships and aliens: somwhere around '91-'92 Judy (as Judy) called for a special gathering at the ranch - and spoke about aliens and implants they've made in humans that are bombs the aliens could set off. She validated the experience of some being taken up into alien ships via a hypnotist who did regressions. Judy adamantly warned against and mocked anyone who wanted to be 'special' by being abducted by an alien.
There had been a Judy as Ramtha talk in '89/'90 about alien abductions and making babies with humans and how some of the women gathered had babies in space somewhere.

This post could also go under the thread about "sources".
From a previous post: “Ramtha emphasised in the early years that we were products of the emotions of our parents; prior to copulation the emotions they were experiencing imprinted themselves on the egg and sperm. “
From the readings of Edgar Cayce – found on the Association for Research and Enlightenment website:
"27. (Q) Would the greater positivity or negativity of either man or woman have any effect on the sex of the child?
(A) To be sure. 457-8
PRENATAL (definition based on Readings on ARE website)
From a medical perspective, the prenatal period is after conception and before birth. In the Cayce readings, prenatal factors are cited in many readings and usually refer to heredity and biological processes within the womb prior to birth. However, in certain instances, prenatal influences seemed to be more inclusive and expansive, taking into consideration such factors as the mental/emotional patterns of the parents, other persons in the immediate environment as well as karmic (e.g., past life) influences."
As pointed out by Christel - the current Ramtha seems to encourage lst seal indiscriminate drunken sex which will theoretically produce advanced enlightened children.
The above was offered here, not as statements of truth or fiction – simply as indicating a source of Judy’s Ramtha’s info. (as well as supporting the recognition of the contradictory nature of "the Teachings") There are many more similar Readings, I just don’t have the time to research them all for those of you who require chapter and verse and signed affidavits to accept a statement as other than heresay.
So you may consider it hearsay or look up yourself that much of the Lemuria and Atlantis ‘facts’ by Judy’s Ramtha can also be found in the Cayce Readings. Probably, if you emailed ARE and asked specific questions they’d provide the answers.
I reiterate – the above is not about right or wrong or woowoo or woewoe…. It’s about sources- and how Judy's story changes with each new book she reads.