Ramtha has stated that the ancient schools that existed on the earth were destroyed, or went underground.

This is quite illogical . If the students were learning that Consciouness and Energy is creating the nature of reality then it ought to be that their reality is getting progressively better as the primary objective for all of the education is to purify the soul and transcend personal limitations.

Recorded history on the contrary shows that some of those who held those schools of thought were murdered at the hands of those who had put no effort into purifying themselves at all.

The Cathars were one group that was murdered.

"The goal of Cathar eschatology was liberation from the realm of limitation and corruption identified with material existence."

Here is a piece of writing I found on the topic:

"Closing of the Mystery Schools


Fifteen centuries ago the death knell of the Mysteries in the West sounded when Emperor Theodosius II banished paganism from the Roman Empire, which at that time included Thrace, Macedonia, Crete, Syria, and Egypt. The final blow came less than a century later, in 529 AD, when Emperor Justinian closed the last philosophical school of Athens, the Academy founded by Plato. Aside from the suppression of everything non-Christian, much of what had once been held beautiful and holy in the Mysteries -- the sacred ritual of the union of the aspiring soul with the higher self -- had become orgies of the most degraded sort.

Never in the history of occultism, past or present, can it be said that the Mysteries -- in their purity and spiritual integrity -- cater to the personal and emotional nature. It is precisely to free the soul of limitation, to purify the heart and discipline the mind, that the Mystery training is so severe, for in initiation only spiritual strength, only diamond caliber can withstand the searching ordeal.

Birth, growth, maturity, and senescence are the inevitable processes of nature in all her departments. A Mystery school need not undergo a degenerate senescence, any more than a person's declining years need be marked by degradation. But, as with ourselves, the seeds of degeneracy and ambition are too frequently sown in the heyday of material success.

Likewise with a genuine Mystery-center, if the challenge of spiritual growth is not met with ever greater austerity of heart than in days of probation, the venomous seeds of inner decay take root and grow. Degradation replaces quiescence, and the school decays. The spirit of the Brotherhood retreats, the rind of ritual remains.

The real cause, therefore, of the closing of the Mystery schools is the inner faithlessness of the guardians of the temple. Never would the light die out if the hierophants remained loyal to the timeless principles of the school, for the Brotherhood watches with eagle eye for every light, and when the call is strong and the cry for truth powerful, the Mysteries remain pure and true."

Taken from website: http://groups.msn.com/TemplarChronicles/yourwebpage4.msnw


Here is another extract:

"The Mystery Schools functioned from pre-antiquarian times until early in the Christian era, when the politics of religion, in concert with the military power of states, saw them all extinguished."

Taken from:
http://www.opencheops.org/page17.htm

Why would Christianity and politics have the dominion when "the god within" is supposed to be all powerful and create the material world around it? Perhaps this whole scenario has happened before.

Many students of RSE are far worse off in life than conventional people of the earth who have never had insight into the "secrets." That their education creates a reality of poverty, suvival and in some cases poor health for DECADES is plainly absurd.

Mysticism has continued in the Christian traditions. Research Hildegard of Bingen; Saint Theresa; The Cloud of Unknowing; and there's more I can't now name.
Gnosticism is alive and well today. www.gnosis.org.
Whatever the bloody violent ugly politico/religious bs of human history, Truth will always survive.

Stellar post Christel!

The loss of paganism disconnected the common man from his divine right to live and learn at his own pace at the base 7.5 megaherzt cycle of the earth.

All he had to understand was the forces of nature that he himself in the human body was made up of.

Living and learning in the modern era involves a labyrinth of cerebral mind patterns to navigate.

One example is the TAROT.

The Tarot's purpose was a cerebral understanding of the forces within that created and drove the known Universe all around.

Judi introduced students at RSE the teaching of "Henry Sugar" who wanted an advantage for winning at card games.

In reality the common deck of cards that we know in this age actually came from the Tarot.

Now RSE is full of students starring at cards trying to see or know what the cards are without any conscious idea where the concept of the playing cards came from.

This is a prime example of what lead to the down fall of the Mystery Schools. Blind ignorance.

* for those who don't know about Henry Sugar, it is an article in a book from called 'The Wonderfull Story of Henry Sugar by Roald Dahl.
Henry Sugar (fictitous name) practices a certain discipline for years untill he can see what a playing card is while it is face down thus giving him an advantage in "Blackjack". He then goes to casino's all over the world and wins big at blackjack and then decides to give his riches to charity.
He dies in the end.

GREAT posts! Thanks for all the info.
Christel, thank you especially for the writings on mystery schools.

Hi all! I would like to put in my 2 cents on the Ancient Mystery Schools. In reading many books on the history of Homo Sapiens Sapiens, especially from all of Laurence Gardner's books, along with those of Sitchen's & others (and is ongoing), I have come to the insight (mine only) that these were basically started by the Annunaki with the intent that most humans couldn't get through these horrific teaching methods; therefore, the Annunaki & rulers would remain unchallenged in their power. In looking at how insane these methods were, I feel that they were to keep most people ignorant & subservient. When one looks at what the newer psychology tools are today, it is known that subjecting someone to repeated abuse will only further the downgrading of that person as a human being. Why else would we be witnessing too much of the downward spiraling of human values today? In such situations it's almost inevitable that a person would be degraded to the base animal instincts. Maybe not everyone, but the majority. To me & what I've come to learn & observe about the mind/body psyche, this is insanity at the helm, which is exactly what is going on at RSE. If we want to help humanity heal, they need models who can model respect, caring, compassion, etc. What do we do with children in abusive environments? We have them removed to give them a chance to learn in a different environment so that they may grow-up to be sane contributing members of the human community. I can no longer support the use of extreme cruelty & horrible experiences perpetrated on others & call this enlightenment. It's OK if anyone else chooses to, but I no longer will support this type of learning on any level of spirit. To continue to do so for me would constitute a breach of my truth & integrity. I'm not perfect & I have my own abuse issues to rewrite, but I'm making a conscious choice in what I stand for.
Thanks for allowing me to express myself. Blessings to you all. M.

Hi again, I just remembered what else I wanted to say on this subject. It doesn't make any sense that the body is desicrated & degraded as something that's impure & disgusting. That to me is a desicration. It can have violent emotions & instincts carried through the genetics, & somehow we need to find a way to change these patterns in a humane & compassionate way. The Cathars & others may have meant well, but again it was throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If the human body is so degrading, then it doesn't make sense for any Soul to want to express through it or to experience what physical existence (which includes the emotions & feelings) is about. Again, these are my truths only. Thanks again. M.

wolfman: this book is a bit tedious, but very well-researched.
A Wicked Pack of Cards: The Origins of the Occult Tarot (Hardcover) 1996.
by Ronald Decker (Author), Thierry Depaulis (Author), Michael Dummett (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Wicked-Pack-Cards-Origins-Occult/dp/0312162944

Joe

I attended a beginner's retreat in 2005. Kenny, the Master of the cards, gave a demostration of his ability to see through cards.
He was on the floor of the arena with a deck of cards in front of him in a stack with the numbers face down.

He endeavoured to "see" through the cards. He took some time to gaze at each one. It was not a quick process. He said that when he gazed at the cards there was a sort of infra red/reversal image that floated above the card in his vision and it took a little time to unfold. He got a few incorrect.....but they were not far off. Most were very accurate. I can't remember the exact number he did....maybe 20 or 25. It was also videod and up on the movie screen for all to see.

Apparently the Henry sugar story inspired him and he practiced many hours over about a year and developed this ability.
Naturally many would have enthusiasm to develop such an idea if it meant the end to their poverty.

I have never heard any story that indicates that this ability has changed Kenny's financial circumstances. He was stated to be a single dad and not particularly affluent. He had a job in the day and looked after his son and practiced his discipline at night.

Has anyone else ever heard if Kenny has turned this ability into something of use in the world?

Christel,

I was in audiences where, when Kenny was in the limelight for a time, we were told he would go to the casinos and win lots of money. Also, that JZ encouraged him to go do so. At the very least, it was strongly implied that he did win money because he "knew" the numbers by seeing them.

Supposedly, he was able to "see" the subtle beginnings of an outline of Ramtha's form over JZ's head. Ramtha told him to keep focusing so he could one day see his form. It appears to be nothing. Anybody can say that!

He came into the limelight and also went right back out of the limelight. He was said to have conquered drinking (good for him!), and as of late, resumed. He seemed a VERY nice man, a gentle demeanor, almost shy. I had never once heard that he snapped at a student as many staff have done. You understand what I mean when I say that - that attitude they have too often.

I have heard what I am sharing from several people, and some of it I have been in audiences to hear Ramtha talking about Kenny.

Whatcha, Did you come across any EVIDENCE that he did actually win lots of money? I have never met amyone comment on it and the rumours go around Yelm FAST. It would be the talk of the town.

At the Beginning event in January of 2005 there was no presentation, nor commentary, as to the value it had given him in his daily life. I do not know if he is still an appointed teacher by Ramtha.

Here is another extract:

The Mystery Schools were operated in accordance with discovered and revealed natural universal laws.

There are several known to exist in antiquity including Chitzen Itza in the Yucatan peninsula of Mexico, Ireland ( became the Druids,) Tibet, China, India, and Babylon. According to Aesclepius they originated during the time that ‘ gods walked the Earth with men.' There was a transference of divine insight which resulted in architectural feedback. It may be said that the cosmic plan was revealed.

http://www.opencheops.org/page3.htm

Kenny:
Greg Simmons said at BTO that Kenny goes every day to the Casino and wins (or uses, I can't remember)20$ and that seems to be his income. Greg said, he has no acceptance for more money at the moment.

He also said, that scientist from the Noetic Science Institute were very impressed with Kenny and Debbie's abilities and they are now doing a scientific study with them.

Ramtha School in Europa:
Because of this friend of mind who is still a current Ramtha student (but has decided to quit, so she will loose her status at the end of this year I think) I have some information on this matter. Ramtha (better JZ) has decided that the School should be in Sportilia (Italy). They have used the facilities in Sportilia for some years I believe and it is on sale for several millions (There is also a large area were they can do this fieldwork and there is a heliport which they are thinking about to change into a tank).
So Ramtha has decided this should be the European School and recently JZ has said, that the European students have to finance this on their own, that there wont't be any financial help from RSE at least for the next 2 or 3 years. so now the European people who have money are gathering together to make this work, they had already an architect who estimated the facilities. And they are thinking to create a stock corportation.

Is there a Ramtha or not?
I believe there has been a Ramtha in the very early years in and around 1977. I don't believe the teachings about the world changes, the grey men etc. are genuine teachings, I think this is already only JZ talking.

Very interesting forum, also I don't participate much, I read all your post with great interest.

Thanks for your post Ivan. Sounds like another convenient excuse about Kenny not having acceptance for more than $20 per day. Hardly likely.

Common people win Lotto tickets....anything from $9 to millions.....

All of the education on manifesting produces a consciouness that can only accept less than unemployment benefits??????

It is most likely as if Kenny really won a lot with his ability it would be like a raging fire through town.

I have not indulged in casino events so I do not know much about what is offered. However his ability demostrated needed a period of time before he could see the card clearly. It was far from instant. So it may not suit a whole lot of games.

His ability aquired through effort of candle focus does not appear to profit him and Ivan's information totally contradicts the presentation Whatcha has observed in the arena.
It is getting off the topic.....

Responding on a new thread did not seem appropriate either.....

All of Rosicrucianism and Theosophy are imitations (in my view) of ancient "mystery schools" stemming from Eleusian, Orphic, Pythagorean and perhaps Egyptian (hermetic) societies. Esoteric Mahayana Buddhism had some influence on Theosophy [thus Ramtha and 'the void' (sunyata)].

Ancient secret societies may or may have not been persecuted, but most scholars of religion I read agree that, by nature, mystery schools were unstable and crumbled from within.
Reasons:
Too much dependence on a leader, overly devaluing outsiders, avoiding "doubt" like the plague, and utter compliance with group agendas (Arthur Deikman's 4 qualities of a cult) will compromise and destroy most any organization.

It's true that what remained of Eleusian mysteries in Greece were shut down by Arian Christians by the 5th century ce, but they were probably mere parodies of what they were in 1500 bce anyway.

I think that we have fallen into worse and sorse ventires as faras "mystery schools" in the last 200 years because science has essentially trumped all the archaic methods of cosmic awareness. Pythagoras would have loved to own a Mac computer and the precision musical instruments of today! He would not have designed something as clunky as the "tank" for initiations.

Joe

"I have heard what I am sharing from several people."

If this forum is to be a credible source of information a post cannot be based on hearsay. Hearsay is secondhand speech which the listener/reader has no way to question or verify.

It is the responsibility of each poster to keep their input clean and accurate. To do anything else is to diminish the reliability of this forum.

Right on, LB! Would you consider copying your above post on hearsay to the thread "Posting on EMF"?

After living in Yelm for 20 years, I can say that this place has always offered especially fertile ground for rumor and hearsay. And now that most of us have computers, hearsay can spread at lightning speed. If we on this site don't try to stick to firsthand experience or substantiated facts, than what credibility do we have in pointing out errors or inconsistencies in the RSE teachings?

(moderator, please feel free to move this to an appropriate thread.)

Due to the secrecy involved and coersion applied about speaking freely about the goings on in the school, there may be times that "hearsay" would be acceptable, the same as it is in a courtroom when it is determined to have probative value;

Probative Value
evidences or facts which tends to prove the existence of other facts or issues in the trials. These evidences are first judged or assessed to make sure that they are not causing a hindrance in form of misleading the trial or leadng to unfair trial.

However, I think if it is going to be used, it should be identified as such using by the term hearsay in the post.

Journey,
Isn't one of your objections to RSE the fact that statements/claims are made and not supported?

If EMF is to be a credible souce of information people should be commenting on what they know, not what they heard.

Legal,

Yes you are correct. The rse claims are totally without support except by anecdotal evidence.

I think you are right though about people posting "I heard it from a friend etc. I was thinking more along the lines of perhaps some sort of disclaimer which would state that it was hearsay so that those who read it are informed that it is. Perhaps there should be a specific thread that is only for hearsay.

I say this for several reasons. In my own research, I have often chased down some hearsay comments and eventually got to some firm corroborative stuff. Without having the hearsay to follow a trail, in some cases I would not have gotten anywhere.

In addition, like I said, I understand your point but I think I would have a free speech issue with forbidding it. I think that there could be a time and a place for it. However, I do agree that hearsay should only account for a very small amount through the threads.

JTR,

I agree with what you posted about hearsay. I was being clear by saying at the end of my post that SOME of what I posted was from direct experience, and SOME of it was the experience of a friend. It wasn't even third hand - the friend told me directly. I have the right to decide that is worthy of posting, which I did. I also achieved my goal, of having it validated. Ivan validated it.

This is a message board, for communication about experiences of ex-RSE students. Some of those experiences are things we hear from other ex-students. We have the freedom of speech to repeat them as such. This is not a courtroom.

Also, this thread has gotten far off topic. If we're going to talk about keeping things "clean", being attentive to posting on topic is yet another way one might think we ought to do just that.

Whatcha

Christel,

One of the stories students heard from the stage (hearsay), was about Kenny supposedly helping a student at a casino, to win money when it was his/her birthday.

I wasn't there to witness if this ever really occurred, but the story was told. So, 1,000 people were encouraged, if not expected, to believe it.

Unless were were there to watch it when it actually happened (if it did), or unless we were there to actually see JZ's medical test results showing she was ill, and then later recovered (proven by tests), then we don't KNOW that any of that is true. We are only encouraged to believe it.

We could even take that a step further and say that we don't KNOW (with direct/personal experience proof) that any part of the teachings are true, despite any claims that others may make.

We don't know Jesus ever existed, or Ramtha ever existed, or that the Bible is infallible, or JZ has only been honest with her folkies, or many other things.

Yet, it is amazing what some people will believe as fact with regard to their spirituality, in particular. Perhaps more amazing what some people will put forth FOR ONE to believe with no substantiation or proven credentials!

Quite a learning, it is.

"We don't know Jesus ever existed, or Ramtha ever existed, or that the Bible is infallible, or JZ has only been honest with her folkies, or many other things."

Be careful when comparing recent history with ancient history. Comparing the existence of Ramtha to someone like Jesus or Buddha is equivocation.
We have eyewitness and direct evidence of recent gurus, new religious leaders, and texts.
The standards of inquiry can be quite rigorous nowadays---- if you care to apply them.
We can rule out more fraud, mental illness, and criminal behaviors.
For example, we can test a lot of evidence surrounding the formation of the Latter Day Saints.
And we have a large body of evidence to test New Age channels and their "entities."
We have to rely on other, less testible forms of inquiry to verify the existence of characters like the Buddha, Lao Tze, Jesus.
Joe

Joe,

Yes, we have eyewitnesses to the recent gurus (and the like). But what we do not have, is compliance with testing in the manner in which you described in the past. Someone like JZ would have to comply with such questioning to verify if Ramtha is "home" or JZ is "home". It's not likely to happen, which is suspect, to me.

Nevertheless, the statement I made is true. We do not, right now, have the proof that those beings exist/existed. I wasn't commenting on testing them.

There are gray areas with this topic (in my opinion).

Personally, I think they should have to prove their credentials to be who they claim to be, before being able to set up a "business" and charge people for something that is unsubstantiated as valid.

Yet, that would still not prove that if the being is present, that the same being is always present. Some people believe that JZ does channel Ramtha (or SOME BEING/S) from time to time, but not consistently. For that matter, even if it was shown that another being other than JZ was present while channeling, then how could it be proven WHO they were ? It would require "testing the spirits" every single channeling session, don't you think ? I only mention this because these are things I have heard a number of people discuss over the years. I would like to see the testing happen, and I doubt I am alone.

David requested a private session with JZ (not long ago), when she was channeling Ramtha, so he could ask questions. He was told his request would be passed along, and if it was, it was never responded to. Perhaps he will comment on that, himself.