This is the big question for us at least at one point or another. There are many viewpoints about it, so let's have this thread to discuss the topic. Surely, it is a LOADED topic, so PLEASE be careful to stick to experiences and facts as you know them to be, and be clear about your opinions as opinions...while respecting others, so we can really look at this issue without it devolving into a flame war at all.

I can't post now, but I will late. Hopefully others will get the ball rolling...

oooh boy, I'm gonna put myself right in the line of fire.I believe Ramtha exists. I believe he is an ascended master and resides with other ascended masters. I also am not convinced he is still operating through JZ but has left but how would I know for sure and I would never pretend to be so arrogant to know for sure..The above is just an intuitive feeling.
I have done some research and find that the teachings are so drastically different pre mid 80's and post mid 80's that it points in this direction at least for me.
I think enough truths are taken from the original teachings (Like the bible???)and other resources that the current school uses to keep people believing that there is something or someone to "follow"
Also, have you noticed that there is an explosion of spiritual awareness as of late outside the school? That is good for business.
I also believe that some (not all) of the teachers at rse are genuine in their desire to help others find their way to god and that the students are genuine in their search.
Also, that the school for many serves as an addiction of sorts at least for some.
I don't think you can ever graduate from a place like rse, only leave when you are ready or things don't make sense....I started to feel like a trapped rat in a maze (tank??)
I also believe that spending any of my time crying or complaining about the wrong that others do is futile. I am not judging anything or anyone, I just buy into the create my reality thing and know that all my experiences are just that...my experiences.
If that is true than rse and all the things some might consider "bad" are judgements which is what the experience of this dimension seems to be about. Maybe we are here to learn that all is divine, even JZ and rse.oops...
That sound airy fairy I know, but that part of the teachings make sense to me.
But I diverse...sorry.
Yes....I think there is a Ramtha, just like I think there is a Jesus(Jeshua), a St. Germain, an Asar...
Why wouldn't there be entities in other dimensions that are helpful to those of us who chose this path of the third dimensional experience? Even if there is pain involved.
Oh my god I sound like a newager....giggle.
How bout we lighten up on ourselves though
just my thoughts

On some level, in some way, somewhere, yes I believe there is/was a Ramtha/ness/like character. There sure arose IN ME a deep and personal response to the character of the Ram. (Close friends could see a similarity...)
Many of the older teachings move me deeply and I am aware that (for me) many of them speak truth.
BC, when you say he (may have)came and taught and left, THAT is what feels the closest to the truth to me also.I agree that it seems like JZ just kept going with it for her own reasons, not hard to figure out why!!!
The most important thing in this is that to me it really doesnt matter if he is/was or not. I learned alot from the material I read/heard and I learned a WHOLE lot about my own "issues" from the way I wanted there to be a real ascended master to teach me, someone "out there". I, briefly, overlooked the one I have had with me all along, the one in me. It's OK, Im forgiven! and still on this marvelous journey anyhow!!

I found it rather strange that many have read this thread but have not posted any thoughts.
Is it that no one really cares whether there is a Ramtha or not?
Even Whatchamacallit who started this thread has not even posted....
Just wondering?

I assume by "exist" the question refers to an independent intelligent being of the "ascended master" variety that can manifest in a visible, tangible body at will and "spiritually" possess or utilize a human body like a different "ghost" in the corporeal "machine."

Ramtha can "exist" purely as a mythological being also, just like Mickey Mouse who is also trademarked.

In my search for whether any ascended master exists and/or can channel information through a medium, I decided before I ever heard of Ramtha that the entire "master" tradition extending from Blavatsky is false. Blavatsky was a clever actress. So is JZ. The Ramtha personality and myth have been changed by her over time, but R remains a JZ "mind puppet" and nothing more.

How do I know? Long story there......but here is a tiny hint:

One Theosophist I admire is K. Paul Johnson. His book cameout 12 years after I came to the above conclusion about "masters", but he researched far deeper than I did. He took on the "lion" I mentioned on another thread and wrote
"The Masters Revealed: Madame Blavatsky and the Myth of the Great White Lodge." (1994)
According to the evidence found by KPJ, HPB made it up.

Another book that helped me to clear up the Blavatsky validity was "Ancient Wisdom Revived" by Bruce Campbell (1980). HPB plagiarized an awful lot.

In my opinion, whether you believe Ramtha exists in any form has no bearing on the quality of the teachings or the cult surrounding the god. The behavior, soundness of claims, and social ethics of any leader or group matter more than whether "God" exists.

Joe

JB,

You're correct that I started this thread and haven't even posted yet. I just now skimmed, without really reading, what's here. I don't have time to post now.

I haven't forgotten ! If I say I'm going to post, I am going to.

Be patient with me...I'm very busy with a very large family.



Whatcha

JB,

”Is it that no one really cares whether there is a Ramtha or not?”

Your question is essential... and one of the most important subjects we can discuss on this forum,
"in my opinion".. for many RSE students it is the cornerstone of accepting that the RSE “teachings” are true and valid.. no matter how bizarre, twisted and destructive they become, if they believe in “Ramtha”.. and that “he” knows best that is all that matters to them.
I have seen people take their faith and belief in “Ramtha” to the grave.
some on this forum will even refer to "Ramtha" as ”The Ram”... the fatherly figure…

Try not to be disheartened if the response to your thread is slow.
For many on this forum.. it will be a slow awakening…
Critical thinking and soul-searching is required to even begin to explore your questions…

I'm sure this thread will be active for a long time to come,
I certainly have some strong opinions on this subject…
Chuckle…

I will post something soon..


David

Correction to my above post..
I just realized it was whatchamacallit who started this thread..

Thank’s Watcha..

You deserve a big bar of chocolate…

David

In my opinion, whether you believe Ramtha exists in any form has no bearing on the quality of the teachings or the cult surrounding the god. The behavior, soundness of claims, and social ethics of any leader or group matter more than whether "God" exists.

I agree with this. There is no substantiated evidence that any ascended masters exist. The ovewhelming evidence at this point is against it and until it is proved otherwise the points made by Joe are the only way of assessing a teaching/organization/leader.

no judgement watcha...just an observation.
the question was meant with all respects due.

JB
To me.
Ramtha represents The Glory within us. That which we have seen flashes of in our past but when we tried to uncover it we always ended up going the wrong direction.

So where did we end up in our searching? We ended up with Ramtha because his initial words rang so true and touched and strumed our souls. And our souls keep the secret that we have yet to find.

The JZ part of the formula, which is the most visible part to the student, is what keeps us from finding The Glory. It is the ultimate "Catch 22" and she represents what not to do in the school. She is the constant reminder that we are heading in the wrong direction.
She demonstrates what is know as the "Left Hand Path", which requires obedience and faith and extreme tithing. It is the path of the Fanatic. And where there are fanatics there is no Glory. Only a room with a view of it.

Some see and pick up on this early. Some it takes longer. Alot longer.

We already belong to a mind that lives forever. That mind connects to "That Which Moves Within You".
It is our job to get THAT to move more freely with peace and ease.

"Peace be with you." As dem Catholics say.

I spent 2 events focusing on my card on the field on "I remember my lifetime with Ramtha". I had past life experiences prior to attending RSE so I knew that if I was going to manifest an experience from the field that this would be a pretty easy one. I have had to date no memory of being in a lifetime where Ramtha was present and being in his army.

So if Ramtha does exist as the 35,000 year old Lemurian warrior he claims that he is, has anyone (or do you know anyone that has) had any recollection of that lifetime?

I have never had any feeling that I was in Ramtha's army, although I have had vivid memories from several other lifetimes.

As to whether Ramtha exists? I last attended an event with Ramtha in 1989. In the mid-80s, I had several experiences that suggested, but didn't prove, to me that something was expressing other than JZ's consciousness.

Once, at a retreat, I was sitting across the aisle from a woman who had been my closest friend until there was a painful emotional rift between us. Nobody else at that event could have known about our feelings, as we didn't know other people at that event, and we stayed away from each other. I remember that Ramtha was walking down the aisle, then he stopped and looked intently at my friend, then turned and looked at me, as if he knew what was going on between us.

Another time in an audience, the group was doing an inward exercise, and in the silence I "felt" Ramtha calling us back. Shortly after that he verbally called us back to our everyday consciousness.

At my first retreat in Yucca Valley, I slept out under the stars every night by myself, and used no alarm clock, but somehow I always awakened very early (unusual for me), and was dressed and ready when Ramtha marched by to lead us to a hill where we watched the sunrise and heard teachings every morning. I did feel that something called me to wake up when I did, for those two weeks. As soon as the retreat ended and I returned home, I once again needed an alarm clock if I wanted to get up early.

So I don't know whether there was some consciousness that came through JZ in the early days, but I do feel that everything started to change after the bomb threat at the Estes Park retreat. JZ started to act as if there was no Ramtha to protect us (as he had said he would), and that was the start of the security measures.

I've observed and heard a lot about goings-on at the Ranch while I've lived in Yelm these last 17 years. The current "Ramtha" sounds more like the harsh barbarian before he supposedly got stabbed and had to sit on that rock for seven years.

MAYBE RAMTHA/JZ NEEDS ANOTHER LONG TIMEOUT!!!

Ramtha exists for those who believe in "him" and does not for those who don't. It's called virtual reality:
a mental world which allows the user (student) to interact with images in an artificially created environment. At RSE, the disciplines generate the experiences (artificially created) and self-hypnosis makes it "real."

EWO,

Great discription!!! I for one do not think there is or ever was a big guy. History will tell if JZ is simply a clever marketer/self deluded, or a combination of either.

History already has told. It is 30 years later (according to JZ's "story") and we have no proven Christs, no demonstrated ascensions, no peer reviewed miracles, no nothing. I invite anyone to challenge me on this.

LMAO, WK good one!!!

Some of my hesitation to respond is similar to that of a parent debating when to tell a child Santa Claus is an idea/Ideal and dwells not at the north pole but in our hearts; when do you speak of sexual intercourse; how do you teach the difference between 'having sex' and making love, and do you know.
That is, with all due respect, to the diversity of people reading here, each is in a different phase of leaving Judy's world. There is information some people simply do not want to hear. Nevertheless -- with love to each of you - the following is my experience and opinion.
When I left in '93 one 'popular' explanation among those I knew who'd already left was that there was a Ramtha until the (infamous) "Gathering of the Eagles" talk in '89. Through the early '90's there was great status among Ramsters to have been invited to the talk. At the time I accepted that Ram's talk at the G of the Eagles was the turning point. Then I listened and re-listened and listened again to the tape. Then it became clear that here was demonstrated a classic cycle of abuse. Those who attended (and listened) were praised; then battered; then told only Ram could lead them to their full potential. Thus was born Ramtha's School of Enlightenment. It is the same pattern found in nearly all of Judy's Ramtha's talks. (see one of the first posts - p. 1 - cycle of abuse)
Other evidence: The utter shift in teachings along with the memory of Judy's Ramtha stating 'my words will be true 100 years from now'.
Recognizing copied sources - and being able to acknowledge that my initial suspicion of the similarity between Ramtha teachings and Edgar Cayce readings was because the teachings were from the readings.
Vera Stanley Adler's books describe the appearance of a Being from elsewhere.
Pre RSE days - after the Dialogues - early Intensive days - someone asked Ramtha what he had for breakfast. Judy lost it. We were yelled at for an hour and dismissed.... We'd paid our money. Flown to wherever. dismissed. ... Why not just tell the dude what he had for breakfast.
A pattern of behaviors stretch from the early Dialogue days to the present - i.e. similar 'marketing' techniques: Ram is leaving; Judy is tired; we're not getting it, etc.
A report from a trusted friend former employee of a staff meeting in which the next step was discussed - i.e. after the Intensives - then the alien thing - then the last days- now what - oh, how about a mystery school. (speaking of which - I met the woman who ran the mystery school that Judy attended shortly before there was teachings on the Ancient Mystery Schools).
A report from a woman I know who dated one of Judy's sons - and sat at Judy's table while they laughed at the suckers....(pre RSE days).
That's enough for now. And I agree with others here - it doesn't matter whether or not Ramtha is 'real'. Doesn't matter if any Teacher is 'real'. What do they teach? Does it work for you?

I gotta thank all of you for your fantastic posts on this matter. It is so fulfilling to get information form the "old timers"
I have a friend who is a very gifted clairvoyant. I have seen him do things that no one in RSE can even come close to. He claims that Ramtha was actually here and left in the 80's. It is what I was refering to earlier. He also thinks as we all do now that any teaching is going to come down to keeping our power, not giving it away, knowing beyond a doubt that we are god.
I am greatful that I got in, saw, assessed and left.
I gotta admit though that I wanted to believe, I really wanted to believe.
Then it came to me. I was looking for someone outside myself to give me the answers. Pave the path, and I was willing to pay whatever it took and do whatever it took.....I was gonna be ahead of the pack...
oh brother....
Now I have my power back and it feeeeeeels gooood

Wow - great posts ! I'm trying to read through days of posts and get caught up.

Anyway, here are a few comments from my peanut gallery...

In all honesty, I have to say that I, like OneHand, have had certain experiences that to this day, I can't explain away other than that Ramtha may well exist. I am NOT saying that I think he does exist - but that I can't YET explain these things. I don't know for sure if he does or doesn't exist.

For *myself*, I will say that at the end of the day, it doesn't matter to me if he does/doesn't exist and I'll tell you why.

As we've read in this forum, throughout the various posts, there are some common threads that continue to be sewn together quite consistently.

* Negativity (in all its forms, from mildly annoying to very serious issues)has been ongoing at RSE for many years. In all these years, this negativity has not been transcended into a loving, "Godly" environment.

* Ditto to all of the points Graced made several posts above.

* I have spoken to a significant number of former students, quite a few who were involved in a capacity more than being a student; they were staff and/or inner circle folks. The stories that I was told would certainly support the non-existance of Ramtha.

* I have heard stories from non-students of RSE, who held a genuine interest in the goings on at the ranch. People who wondered aloud to me about why students would continue to go, and then after 2 - 3 years, just disappear from the school. These people had many stories to tell, and not one was complimentary.

* I have heard stories of JZ's impeccability and "tactics" called into account, into question, by many people in a way that is not complimentary to her personality.

* I have asked myself (and discussed with friends/family) why I would have the experiences that I have had (dreams of Ramtha, or happenings at events before I even attended, things like that) if he weren't real. I thought perhaps "he" was telling me something(s). But, I came to realize that I was having these experiences because of my OWN intuition and precognitive dreaming, that's all. I had it since I was a little kid and I still have it.

* Ultimately, it doesn't matter if he's real, because I want nothing to do with that school, based on how it is run. I have heard quite a few people say they don't like the way it is run, either. Not the expense, the suppressive atmosphere, the condescending attitudes toward students, etc. Yet, they tolerate it because they JUSTIFY it in their minds (defense mechanisms at work) that Ramtha knows what is best. I want no part of that. If he is real, then I hold him accountable for the way that place is run, in his name, no less. If he is who he says he is (which I seriously doubt), then he is allowing the RSE to be facilitated as it is, despite the negative outcomes it has with the teachings not producing christs, and/or all of the other unfulfilled claims to enlightenment.

* If he is real, then he is also accountable for hitting people, and enacting child abuse in his audience. That opens up another discussion about WHO he is ? That, to me, is not a loving, respectful, compassionate, benevolent, evolved being. Enough said.

As for the things I cannot explain, unless he may well exist, they remain a mystery to me. Also to those in my life who are aware of just what those experiences are. In any case, I don't choose to be supportive or involved. I did that with inner strife, for many years. Maybe (MAYBE) if I had lived in Yelm, I would have exited far sooner. In traveling back and forth, there is a natural detachment that happens, to a degree, when one is out of that environment and doesn't face it all on a daily basis. It's very easy to get caught up in daily life and not really give a lot of energy to the red flags, until they are shining like a floodlight in your eyes!!

If he is real, shame on him. If he isn't shame on JZ.
In either case, let the truth prevail somehow, for everyone's sake. The whole truth and nothing but the truth.

This thread started 3 days ago, I responded at the time that on some level I believed in the existance of a Ramtha character, perhaps long gone now in RSE.
I also saw how, even just 3 DAYS AGO, I still wanted to believe this on some level... perhaps to justify what I "did" in the name of Ramth's teachings... oh wait minute... WHOMEVERS teachings, as it is rather obvious that what we were "taught" came from many sources.
Even by telling myself that he must have "left" years ago, I was still trying to piece together my fantasy, and have it hold water in my mind. But like a sort of Mad Ram-Cow disease, my mind is a swiss cheesy sort of siv right now where there are just too many holes and not enough fingers to stop them with.
Truth is true, or its not. Mostly I don't like to fixate on and Either/Or world, but in the case of truth there really are no grey areas.
When the baby is screaming lies and BS the bathwater GETS SO DIRTY, you may as well throw it all out.
So what's a Ramtha and was it "real", like a puff of smoke... its as real as any dream I choose to keep on dreaming until I choose to wake up.

If something isn't true all of the time, then it is false.

The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.
Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962)

Hi everybody,

I left RSE after the Boktau 1996 precisely because I believed there was some spirit behind the scenes that may have taken a lot of energy from people during the summer solstice (!!) drunken night, just recall how half-dead everybody was the day after.

In this context, I recommend taking a look at the book "The Practice of Magic - An Introductory Guide to the Art" by Draja Mickaharic, York Beach, Maine 1995. This book gives a grand tour of magico-religious groups, and how some of their initiations into becoming a priest of their group work. Particularly see page 58f on Santeria and how a spirit of their pantheon takes over the priest and becomes "owner of the head". In return, the priest gets some psychic powers, real or assumed. But apparently, the combo of priest-cum-spirit can and does perform some miracles every once in a while during ceremonies, to make the folks come back for more. What they do not realize is they give their emotional energy away during these gatherigngs, which is harvested by the "deity". Does this ring a bell?

I think Ramtha came, taught, and left a long time ago.

Certainly the presentation of Ramtha in the early years was one of lofty concepts and getting humanity out of the murk and the mire of the marketplace.

Humanity was so far in the murk and the mire that students were given instructions to "prepare themselves for the days to come" in order that they were "preservable." People were supposed to make the preparations because they were so much in their images that they were not conscious enough to be preservable.

Instead in the later years students have been plunged into the murk and the mire instead.

The exhibition of "Ramtha" in the later years is vastly different.

What glorified Ramtha in my mind was the fact that I was getting information, that was new TO ME, at that time, and even tho I knew he "got ideas from us" as he said at my beginning retreat in 90, that didnt seem a big deal becasue still, it was being disseminated in a way like a crash course in [all the subjects]...and i didnt see anything wrong with that...whole books are written using other peoples stories, tho yes theres a bibliography at the end..and now I see where credit should have been given truthfully all these years...

It wasnt until I got away for a few months from listening to any ramtha talk, that after putting in a tape of a retreat I "missed" i realized how hypnotic his seductive talk was, and how the presentation of ideas were not any more profound than what we could come up with ourselves in the coffee shop. So you hear "Him" talk and if you "already KNow" the wisdoms there, you think "Oh wow, arent I smart like him", and I kept feeling freer and freer, especially when Id call someone here in the school and find out that the latest "teachings" were on the same subject my life was about..so I felt I was never Missing anything. Then I made my whole reality a name field, and getting what I was focussing on, was and is just a way of life...
Before the school, a friend of mine was told by the early Ramtha, about alot of things he would be creating on the planet in the near future..this friend said he felt Ram was real and they "knew" each other well. When it turned out that JZ was not willing to help FUND the dream that Ram had coached my friend about, this friend lost respect for her and always said she was not impeccable...etc...I used to think he was unfair expecting her to be like Him, but gee, what DOES she do with all the money, and now that my friend is gone from earth, never having fullfilled that dream Ram was so suppportive of.....[and I defended JZ saying how she didnt owe anyone monetary support, even if The Ram was seeming on thier side] .I see now why he didnt want me to go to the school...And what good is regret, and "what ifs?"...
Is Ramtha real, is like asking about all the other aliens that come thru people to help them..or not...or the TV characters people watch and react to as if thier roles are real too. I have to remind the kids that the TV families are on "make believe SETS", and even tho acting mimicks reality, its just not the same kind of Real...is it???

I have yet to witness any concrete evidence (let's use JZ's tactic here of using science as a legitamate guage) as to any ascended masters existence (ref Joe's post above regarding Blavatsky's charade).
And I ask, where else is "Ramtha's" life documented other than his life being espoused by Judy, herself, and then the students chanting ,"he SAID it is true!"
I am learning to discern from an 'experience' one has in a group setting (we could insert utilizing some form of NLP or hynosis) , and what 'experience'one has with constant thoughts emanating from a particular belief system (one could be a devout Alien Channeler, Buddhist, Ramster, Al-Queda ,etc)-you are going to dream and have intuitions according to that belief system.
I guess it boils down to what belief system do you want to adopt as a way of life?
And then how do you integrate and fully ALLOW your neighbors, friends, co-workers and their unique beliefs?

"Where else is Ramtha's life documented?"

I heard a RUMOR that before she started "channelling Ramtha" Judy read his story in a book. It sounded grand so she thought, "Why not?"

So it is possible that there is a book out there somewhere...

JB,

”Is it that no one really cares whether there is a Ramtha or not?”

In my case, I knew that it was not always Ramtha, and that mostly it was not him. I still continued to attend because what was being taught had value to me regardless of it's source.

Cowboy,

The Vera Stanley Alder books (from the very early 1900's) speak about a man who appears to her, and his name starts with "R", and he talks about blue/healing, how we are all an electron of creation, and I think you may see a trend forming....

The books are still available for purchase. I got them to read for myself, as I "needed" to prove that what I heard, was true. Sure, it's all in the books.

Very curious "coincidence", I'd say. As are the many other parallels between previously written material, and the subsquent teachings.

Inquiring minds....

Whatcha - one thing very upsetting was the proclamation by 'ramtha' that 'he' was the 'Ram' of the 'hindis' people. Just ask anyone who is from India about that. Their 'Ram' was a man with a wife and is very much respected all through India and by Asian Indians all over the world. Their stories aren't even closely related aside from the energy vortex chakra system. Take Shiva, again from the Hindu culture. Shiva is the avatar who appears to destroy and rebuild. Temples in India have temple dancers who re-enact this dance. I was so confused to see the huge painting of Shiva there since I've studied eastern religions and the 'dance' there is an alteration of the dance of destruction and renewal performed in India. I wish more people of that persuasion would offer their insights, for mine are limited only to what i have studied and my interactions with colleagues. It appears to me the 'dance' was hijacked from Hinduism's dance of destruction and renewal by Shiva. If you ever saw a thin figure statue encircled by a ring of fire, that's Shiva, called the nataraja. If anyone out there from india is reading this, would you interject and help in connecting this?

Um, actually Ramtha is a little cowtown in the Middle East, right at the Jordian border with Syria, in the heart of the Arabic-Islamic world.

Go to google maps and see it for yourself. The link is below.

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&tab=wl&q=Ramtha%2C%20Jordan

Besides, the aestethic and intellectual spirit of RSE isn't Indian either; it is Arabic. Arabism has pervaded the Ramtha teachings since the beginning.

Mathew stated, "Besides, the aestethic and intellectual spirit of RSE isn't Indian either; it is Arabic. Arabism has pervaded the Ramtha teachings since the beginning. "

Please don't tell JZ or Ramtha about this, Mathew.

An Arabic influence??? You mean those Wizard capes are really BURKAS worn backwards??????javascript:%20void(0);

Burkas worn backwards? That is too funny!

Matthew, waht are some other examples you see of the Arabic influence at RSE?

Okay, here are some Arabic elements that infuse RSE. Let’s start with JZs clothing, which she wears when she’s drunk and channeling her altered ego on stage. Is she wearing Indian garb or, God help me, something Euro-new age-wiccan---or is her clothing yet another expression of Arabism? I’ll let you be the judge. Here is a link to a photograph of a comedian Al Brooks in the comedy “Looking for Comedy In The Muslim World.”

http://www.imdb.com/gallery/ss/0433116/Ss/0433116/11.jpg.html?path=gallery&path_key=0433116

Probably the next most evident expression of Arabism is in the stories that JZ invents about Ramtha’s life time. The whole feel to these stories is Arabic. To say that Ramtha’s fictional past took place in India is to know nothing of the spirit of ancient Indian culture and its extreme spirituality. To the contrary, the old Ramtha tales are defined by the sensuality and cruelty of Arabic culture, circa 5000 BC: i.e. the extensive, un-going warfare; the severe methods of capital punishment like feeding heads to turtles, as Ramtha did; the killing of all children over nine or ten, as Ramtha’s army did when invading a nation; etc. You could go on and on listing the tortures, the cruelties and the decadences, like the institution of satraps, innate to Arabic culture. But I think I made my point.

Lets move to the next one. Gnosticism itself is Arabic, for God sake! Wikipedia calls Gnoticism “an outgrowth of ancient mystical traditions in Asia, especially Iran.” The spirit and soul of Gnosticism rose up out of the rich Manichean tradition that flourished in the Middle East and south into Africa and Egypt. Therefore it was no surprise to me when JZ re-named RSE: The American Gnostic School.

We know where JZ stole Ramtha’s name, from a town in the Middle East, at the Jordanian border with Syria, in the heart of the Arabic world.

But here is where she stole his character! There are many odd similarities between the myth of Ramtha and the actual life of prophet Mohammed, the founder of Islam. Both were illiterate. Both were orphaned at an early age. Both retreated from the world, Ramtha to a mountain top, Mohammed to a cave in a mountain, and spent their time in meditation and reflection before a life transforming revelation put them in direct connection with a universal source of knowledge. After the revelation they spent the remainder of their life ministering.

Arabism shouldn’t be confused with Islam. Burkas are Islamic, not Arabic! The following “Arabic” fashions would get any women beheaded in radicalized Islamic nations.

http://www.ethnicdenim.com/fashion-blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/jilbab2.jpg

http://www.ethnicdenim.com/fashion-blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/Jilbab.jpg


Perhaps someone experienced in fashion design could clarify this issue for us: whether JZ is wearing Indian garb or Arabic. To me they seem Arabic.

Oh, I forgot to add yet another similitary between Ramtha and Mohammed. Both were warriors. Both conquered 2/3 of the known world "by fire and sword."

It's possible, but maybe not probable, JZ based Ramtha's character on the life of Mohammed, then added all the New Age trappings to make him marketable for mass consumption.

Just a theory...

MM writes: ''''Just a theory''''

For a moment there, I thought you were alluding to her galloping arabians. She or he, JR/RJ, definitely stated 'I am the Ram of the Hindis people' and several took offense with this. Wherever else she derives her garb, it seems to be a combination of a lot of eastern flavors-a sort of 'curry' not a spice itself but a combo-pack of many. Just a couple of examples I noticed-pick up the Upanishads - is the dream state real or is it otherwise? The veil of illusion also in buddhism, which originated from hinduism (the buddha was born in a part of Nepal that was once India).Lifting the 'veil' at wine ceremonies akin to lifting the veil of maya or mara-illusion in buddhism. It seems to me that she JR/RJ borrows and uses whatever she wants from the east. The similarities you point out are excellent, imo. Maybe she tore out the pages from various ancient texts, folded them and placed them all in a hat and used whatever she pulled out.
One CD or DVD, I can't remember at this juncture, Ramtha instructs people to use the sanskrit mantra 'aum mani padme hum' which is compassion for all. Yet at one of the events, compassion was on a long'list' of attributes Ramtha vehemently shouted as a trait we must be rid of. Hey-all part of that 'game.' As the world becomes smaller we see more and more which was borrowed from the eastern world in terms of entertainment as in Star Wars, Dune, Matrix, and of course, 'spirituality'- need I go on-it's just so exhausting-sigh, whatever is in her bag of tricks. Glad to be out of it and firmly believe this neck of the internet is of vast benefit to humankind-much more so than sucking $$$, particularly during tax time. It would be a very nice gesture on her part to take care of her 'own' and quit sucking them dry financially. I feel for those who left all behind. Maybe she could put up housing for the many who can barely meet their rent.
It's become so obvious what a pile of bakwas we endured. Would love to hear more of your theories on the Mohammed connection. Some outside the islamic community from the east theorize he was schizoprenic. Other avatars taught a very different path.
Dhanyavad.

Those are very insightful connections, Matthew. Thanks!

GTG....... Firmly believe that this neck of the internet is of vast benefit to humankind-

Funny you should say this.
I heard said that Ramtha mentioned that much had been accomplished here of late in early 2007.

I immediately thought of all us "REBELS" here at EMF and the outrageousness that it took for this site to get up and running......and running......and running.
(salute to david)

Much more courage and outrageousness than opening an eccentric "shabby sheik" junk store in Bill Gates Belleview Washington and renaming yourself a Rose.

That sort of "Magick" is "so been overdone already" that it isn't even funny and lacks any kind of true meaningful power.

This kind of beauty and hope the world does not need.

"What The World Needs Is The Truth".

And that lies behind the facade of eccentric illusions, other wise known as megalomania.

Sorry if I may have offended the meek here on EMF.

NOT!

why you all look so far.its hollywood.look at the movies she grew up with:spartacus [the moving army],yuel bryner in the king and i[ male behavier]......

it is sientific profen that jz is not a fraud.nobody dares to ask is ramtha a fraud?

Here is another Arab connection showing how contradictory Ramthinian lore has become, historically.

Ramtha talks about there being Arabian horses in his life time, 30,000 year ago. Yet this is impossible. The Arabian breed is much younger than that. Wikipedia says that the modern Arabian dates back about 4,500 years.

If Ramtha was a member of the Post-Atlantean, Lumerian continent, what were Arabian horses doing in his army in the first place?

Read the history of Arabian horses and you’ll see that they’re a hallmark of Arabic breeding practices---not Post Atlantean, Hindu-Indian culture. According to Ramtha lore, the horse “he” used in his life during his marches of war was a steed named Shimiradin, which happened to reincarnate in our present era, as an Arabian, and is owned by JZ Knight. Yeah right!

Call JZ for stud fees---not me.

Ex, you're asking a good question but first let us clarify the statement, "It is scientifically proven JZ is not a fraud." That is said by RSE and not the scientific community. Around 1997 JZ invited and paid for a few scholars to come to RSE. You can read all about it on the RSE website. Stanley Krippner said, "I can rule out that JZ is a fraud. Beyond that I am not certain what the Ramtha phenomenon is."

That is not scientific validation. Scientific validation involves double blind studies and peer review. There was none of that. To use the phrase "scientifically proven" is inaccurate and misleading.

''''"It is scientifically proven JZ is not a fraud." That is said by RSE and not the scientific community. Around 1997 JZ invited and paid for a few scholars to come to RSE. You can read all about it on the RSE website. Stanley Krippner said, "I can rule out that JZ is a fraud. Beyond that I am not certain what the Ramtha phenomenon is."''''

I don't know if we have people here whose first language isn't Engligh but if so, sometimes the words in stating a question do get reversed in my experiences with others. Ex might have been asking 'is it' and not saying 'it is'-something I hear a lot with those who speak English as a second language. It's just something to keep in mind when reading because there is no intonation or voicetone only little smiley faces.
The testing on J/R was performed almost ten years ago. It's time for a rerun in view of medical advances and as was stated a very select group were 'invited'. Her medical history leaves a lot to be desired in the way of her being cured. Where is the post emphysemic evidence? Nothing is there. All said it's chronic fatigue syndrome she eliminated. Lack of restful sleep is a huge contributor to the waxing and waning of CFS among other things. imo it's time for a rerun with the 'proven medical tests' and further documentation. the glossy sheets distributed prove nothing at all. Show it to any doctor outside of the school and see what they tell you. Yes I believe we can heal ourselves but this doesn't prove JR is or isn't anything. Scoring high on the dissociative end-I don't know-imo there is more than one personality in her possession. Her tragic molestation and the fact she claims this 'spirit' was with her during her entire lifetime could be her way of coping with her trauma. MPD is a fractured person trying to cope with severe trauma. Only her husbands guys and children would know what it is to live with her. What happened to the dentist?

''''http://www.ethnicdenim.com/fashion-blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/jilbab2.jpg

http://www.ethnicdenim.com/fashion-blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/Jilbab.jpg''''

DIDN'T see the Mel Brookes attire yet. these two could be from anywhere in the east. they look similar to Indian male wedding attire seriously.

cool to have some awake people here.the sentence is put right and was meant sarcastic because at one time you will hear this when you discuss the vality of r with a ramster"it is sientific......."english is my 2.languege thats for all the typos and mistakes sorry.i actualy asked a staffmember to give me this sientific paper it dosent exist for the public. this hole paper and the study is bought and paid by jz.yes there was an event for current students [i was there]when the sientists held their speaches.they did this at her pool for some choosen friends only.the puplic [normal ramsters]only heard a summerization from the staff.so this statments are very filtered. i also heard very different statments at rse what realy was measured.me iam thinking she thinks everybody is dumm stupid and i saw this before if you let a guru teacher [thats to mock her because guru means teacher but she alllways states iam not a guru or cult]say anything.people will find the greatest explanations themself.but now to the second part.if there is something chaneled [by the way 35000years is very convinient there r no scriptures and validated proof]what is realy happening?black eyes?yes i had elevated pupills when i was in a lsd introdused state.and i just heared resently that certen mental problems can do this too.or i guess you can use contactlenses. i can only make my primitive obserwations.isent it allso very convinient that jz dosent know what r does.and ther is even the vice versa explanation in school.that because r uses jz body he limits himself and is not his true eternal nature and we guys get asked to take full responsiblity for ouer life.i call this a carnevall.

to the remarks about india:it is very embaressing[or american?no offence guys this is a great country] that there is absolutly no knowledge about the hindu religion.rs shiva interpretation is quite good.but for instand the exlanation why apes r importent in hinduisem.[in the storyteller book with ramstorys he uses freqently. i tosed it in the meantime]or the statment:why should i go to a country were they worshipp cows.this people know nothing[ramtha not exact words but heard by me on an event]cows r importent because they give milk.and because they give every day milk and you eat them only once they r not slauterd so quickly.very practical no spirri mumbo jumbo sorry.the only 'holy cow' is the one which carried sita.[jz should love this one: riding animals]now hanuman[the ape with his club] was a genaral of the hinduram.he is apriciated for his loyality to the ram,his strengs and by the way he can fly like the wind.i would have squeesed more out of it than jz.the ramajana is older then the bibel.nice story there r shortversions out there.there r also bad parts in it which explain and support the cast system [dont think the west is free of it].there is also a twist were hinduram got very fussy about sitas honerability in captivity [pretty macho]but a nice story.the guy which builds his hut several times until he finds gold is millarepas story retold.then chakras:even so the indian system matches totaly jzr teaching i allways wonderd about this littel twist with the seals.because r is very paticular on it.i know that this word get used in black magig circles,amulettmagig,left hand way?anybody has info about this?i allways had the guttfeeling that this would lay jzs not totally dissmisable powers open.

Excellent post imo ex. Shiva is part of the Hindu trinity consisting of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Vishnu is the entity who reincarnates again and again as Ram and Krishna and many others. Hinduism is monotheistic and not polytheistic. One god formless and permeating everyone and everything. The caste system is outlawed but what can the country do in villages that rely on cow patties for fuel. Brahma the source from which all arose. Hinduism is cyclical in its nature with beginnings and endings of 'periods' at which time 'Shiva' does his dance and it is interpreted as a male in Hinduism. His dance both destroys the old and makes new for another cycle. The baghavad gita excerpt from the Mahabharat where Krishna recites the Gita to Arjun on the battle field is where Krishna is stating the one true essence we are all a part of. Its a beautiful read. Hindus do not believe in killing any living thing. I am not saying people do not do this but ths is the belief. People in rse do things JR rants against or do not do things JR rants for. Same thing for all 'religions'. Siddartha later became the Buddha, enlightened one, but was raised in Hinduism and found it vastly unfair to the masses and Buddhisms roots are within Hinduism without the caste system. Sikhism is another, but much 'newer' breakoff. They have no 'guru' or teacher. They only have their book and they are to not cut their hair which is why many wear what loos to be turbans, men do not shave, they were special 'undies' , wear a silver bangle and carry a scimitar-or are supposed to. Then you have the Jains who believe in killing nothing not even bacteria. Some will wear small veils across their mouths so they don't inhale and kill bacteria. Their saudus or saudis depending on if its a he or she walk and only walk thousands of miles and in their presence you are quicly humbled. They teach love and oneness. There may be many deities hinduism seems to incorporate but this is due to the nature of the religion back when they viewed others as gods and accepted the others gods as their own yet understanding we are all one so there is only one higher being and all else is as one chooses to label their higher being. There are 'virgin births all throughout the mahabharat and its not unique to christianity. imo JR borrowed heavily from the east so many years ago before people on this side of the planet had much exposure to eastern culture. The planet is smaller now and we have the opportunity to learn from whence she obtained her 'intel.' Smart lady she is. Use something people are not aware of here in the US. Teach it make $$$ and voila. imo Asian Indians ought be insulted and i happen to know others were offended by her proclaiming 'I am the great Ram of the Hindis people'.

NOT.

Noticed another thing. On stage she wears huge shoes probably filled in to fit as RJ. Out on the field she showed up wearing boots looking to be a women's US size 7 - euro 37 I think I noticed because I liked the boots. This was supposed to be the big guy but there was no accent not a hint. On what the bleep her skin was grainy. Her face is now smooth and thinner and she looks petite even when present as RJ and not JR. She wears jeans as RJ and overcoats that hide her body onstage and some female staff members do good imitations of the Ramtha 'yell.'

I won't get into Buddhism here. Read the rig vedas and upanishads and bhagavad gita for a start and you will find huge similarities even with the idea at rse of people being sick because of their past life unresolved issues. It's a common belief in Hinduism. I don't now if there are any retreats in India China Nepal Pakistan. It would be interesting. People don't go around saying they are a god in those countries and Nepal is the only Hindu kingdom in the world. The Nepalise king did restore the lower house. He took over because the acting government was very corrupt. The maoists wanted a communist government installed and there was a lot of trouble. Read about it or talk to someone who is there. You might find on one of your 'service' calls your indeed talking to someone in Kathmandu at a service center. Ask them a question or two and eeryoone can learn something. Learning is one way to dig deep and see what JR read so many years ago thinking the western world would never know. Some of us do. I considered myself more buddhist than anything before I went to rse in concept w/exception due to women not in the Dalai Lama's entourage. I was in audience with this wonderful being where he took o his wristwatch shoes and 3000 people in the event were overwhelmed or 'whelmed' with calm and love for one another. In this humble man's presence I felt more love and peace than anything experienced at rse. He talked not of himself but of the heart sutra. Not pushing buddhism here but my experience in the presence of a gentle being not telling 3000 at once he was a 'god' and would take people down. that is scary,saying that. It ended with a touching poem about a mountain kingdom. Did he cricize anyone? No. He didn't tell us we were gods but explained to live a good life and not turn from what we identify with because there are many paths to God or the higher essence. Live a 'good' life meaning love and compassion for all sentient beings. It's not so far off from Jesus's sermon on the mount. Seriously not pushing buddhism but posting this for comparisons sake. Please correct me if you find anything I wrote to be incorrect. I study this for so long yet is my interpretation and conversastions with colleagues and others and going to events talking to lamas and people of the hindu faith which has its own divisions-not disagreements-only divisions. Hare Krishna in India is a lot different from what we've seen in the US for certain. There is also Krishna with the flute, Krishna with the chakra-which is a circular weapon- and Krishna with the gopis or milkmaids, Krishna and Radha and more. Used to be spelled 'Christna'. Interesting I find.

In 1988, as my peers were going off to college, I was pulling a trailer up to Yelm, WA to become an initiate in JZ’s University of Sophistry.

But instead of learning something of value, such as truth, I earned what is the equivalent of a Bachelor’s degree in Ramthinian double speak and pseudo history, with a minor in quack science. Mind you, these aren’t degrees you hang in your office for everyone to see and to brag about to alumi. To the contrary, they’re something you shake your head over before reaching for a handful of your own hair.

I remember several more Arabic elements in Ramtha lore that contradict JZs assertion that Ramtha was born into post-Atlantean Lumeria. In fact, the way he explains it, it sounds as if Ramtha comes from Arabia or perhaps Persia. On repeated occasions Ramtha talks about harems and satraps, concubines and slaves, all institutions that are uniquely characteristic of ancient Arabic culture. The eunuchs, which Ramtha says guarded over harems, are also Arabic. Wikipedia says:

“The earliest records for intentional castration to produce eunuchs are from the Sumerian cities of Lagash in the 21st century BC.”

''''I remember several more Arabic elements in Ramtha lore that contradict JZs assertion that Ramtha was born into post-Atlantean Lumeria.''''

Another thing I find inconsistent. In the white book he claims that his 'real' mother is 'ninmah' of the anunaki, his 'mammy.' He/she doesn't say his biologic mother isn't his mother, but due to the genetic manipulation Ninmah is who he considers to be 'mammy.' This confuses me because he also claims his ancesters came from the north star? If this is so, did Ninmah/Mammy genetically influence that culture prior to its arrival on 'terra'? Then I read in another part that his biological mother was raped by an atlantean and that is how the younger sister who died came into this plane. He claims the Atlanteans were short and the Lemurians were very tall and that his mother was taller than he is. So she allowed herself to be raped? He also says his father was Atlantean and his mother was Lemurian.
Now my head really IS spinning.

Bachelors degree? You got out that fast?? I've got a PhD (piled higher and deeper) in How To Believe You Think You Know What You Are Doing. For that I paid huge money and you are right, Mathew, I do not have a diploma hanging on the wall. What I have is years of lost and misspent time.

Conartistry for the Innocent aka RSE!

''''What I have is years of lost and misspent time.'''

Maybe a book? Sugary stuff out there. Nitty gritty is missing. Among all of you, you have a lot to tell the world.

One thing not on this thread about JR/RJ eyes. My sibling has every color of contact lenses imaginable. She can have glowing blue or simple green, or steel grey, black, wild eyes, white out eyes, I don't need to go on. The early videos JR/RJ had blue eyes. Then I read claims that they turn a steely grey. Look online at contact lenses.com or any other site especially for 'wild eyes.' My sibling has brown eyes and the colors do a good job of masking her real color. JR with blue eyes and a colored lens would be cake.

Mathew,
Great lines!!

"Mind you, these aren’t degrees you hang in your office for everyone to see and to brag about to alumi. To the contrary, they’re something you shake your head over before reaching for a handful of your own hair. "


Reminds me of a fortune cookie I once read that I repeat every time someone tells me that I "have to experience it (something) for myself"

It said;
"Experience hands one the comb only after they have lost their hair."

Fortune cookie, restaurant Sun Luck, Mott street NYC 1973

**I compiled all my posts on this topic, re-assessed and re-organized their content, and finally combined them into one, great-big post:

In 1989, as my peers were going off to college, I was pulling a Forester travel trailer up to Yelm, WA to become an initiate in JZ’s University of Sophistry.

The objective was enlightenment---as is every true hippys’ ultimate goal. But instead of gaining any soulful revelation or far out cosmic truths, at JZs university I earned what is the equivalent of a Bachelor’s degree in Ramthinian double speak and pseudo history, with a minor in quack science.

Mind you, these aren’t degrees you hang in your office. To the contrary, they’re something you shake your head over before reaching for a handful of your own hair.

My best guess now is that JZ fabricated the whole Ramtha character from scratch---even Ramtha’s name. If you go to google maps you’ll find a little cowtown in the Middle East, right at the Jordanian border with Syria, in the heart of the Arabic-Islamic world, called Ramtha. Could it be? Is it possible? Maybe JZ fabricated Ramtha’s name by. . . pointing her finger at the map? Follow the link below and you be the judge.

http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&hl=en&tab=wl&q=Ramtha%2C%20Jordan

But here is where she stole his character---possibly. Look at the odd similarities between the Ramtha mythos and the actual life of the Prophet Mohammed, the founder of Islam. Both were illiterate. Both were orphaned at an early age. Both were warriors. Both conquered 2/3 of the known world "by fire and sword." Both retreated from the world, Ramtha to a mountain top, Mohammed to a cave in a mountain, and spent their time in meditation and reflection before their profound revelations set them ablaze with cosmic purpose.

When JZ tapped into the Ramtha mythos she was entering into the flow of thought streaming out of Arabism---not Indian thought, as you would expect. Ramtha claims that he is the great god Ram from the Hindu religion and that his teachings were the foundation of Hindu thought. That’s an awful big pill to swallow. Even if you believe Ramtha is an ascended master channeling through JZ, you cannot ignore the lack of Indian expression-forms and, conversely, the plethora of Arabic elements in the Ramtha mythos: the Arabian horses, the concubines, the slaves, the Middle Eastern diet and cuisine, the clothing, the styles of warfare, etc.

The whole feel to the Ramtha mythos is Arabic: i.e. the extensive, un-going warfare during his life time; the severe methods of capital punishment, like feeding heads to turtles; the killing of all children over ten, as Ramtha’s army did when invading a nation. I could go on and on listing the tortures, the cruelties and the decadences committed by Ramtha’s army during his life time. Yet that would belabor the point.

Gnosticism itself is Arabic! Wikipedia calls Gnoticism “an outgrowth of ancient mystical traditions in Asia, especially Iran.” The spirit and soul of Gnosticism rose up out of the rich Manichean tradition that flourished in the Middle East. Therefore it was no surprise when JZ re-named RSE: The American Gnostic School.

On many occasions Ramtha talked about there being Arabian horses in his life time, 30,000 year ago. Read the history of Arabian horses and you’ll see that they’re a hallmark of Arabic breeding practices---not Post Atlantean, Hindu-Indian culture. According to Ramtha lore, the horse he used in his life was a steed named Shimiradin, which happened to reincarnate in our present era, as an Arabian, and is owned by JZ Knight. Call JZ for stud fees---not me.

Ramtha also talked about harems and satraps, concubines and slaves, all institutions that are uniquely characteristic of ancient Arabic culture. The eunuchs, which Ramtha says guarded over harems, are also Arabic. Wikipedia says: “The earliest records for intentional castration to produce eunuchs are from the Sumerian cities of Lagash in the 21st century BC.”

Taking all these elements into consideration, we must assume then that Ramtha is an Arab myth shoddily constructed by an amateur with little to no education in world history.

"...with little to no education in world history."

That would be about right because I often heard JZ/R make the comment, "My daughter loves history. She reads about it all of the time."

Mind control doublespeak.

''''"...with little to no education in world history."

That would be about right because I often heard JZ/R make the comment, "My daughter loves history. She reads about it all of the time."'''

''Mind control doublespeak''

1984! 'Newspeak'

I have been thinking about this . Trying to find words to express my own beliefs about this . I don't think JZ channeling Ramtha the Ascended Master , is what it is presented to be , but I think something is going on , that "exists" . The question is what . There is a few possibilities .

I think there is probably spirits , and these spirits can interact with us under the right conditions , and this interaction can go as far as possession or ”channeling” . I used to drink alcohol and when I did I would have blackouts . One time I was very drunk in another country and I began talking in the language of that country and singing old folk songs .When my friends told me about this the next day , I had no recollection , but I said I must have just made it up , for fun , as I couldn't speak the language at all. Many people who had been there insisted I hadn't just made it up . There had been locals present , who spoke the language , who were talking to me and singing the songs with me . So , I believe spirit possession and channeling does happen sometimes .( and I don't drink anymore!!!! )

But if Ramtha is a spirit JZ is channeling ,I very much doubt this is an Acsened master of any kind !
I could make a long list of stuff that has been done by JZ , or aided and abetted by JZ , which I very much doubt any Ascended Master would want to support , but I will just point out some of the most obvious .

People who have an interest in psychic phenomena , the power of our thoughts , higher powers , prayer ,and who pay attention to this sort of thing , all have extraordinary experiences sometimes . Ramtha claims to be teaching people how to master the laws governing these extraordinary experiences , so they can cause these things to happen at will . Ramtha allows JZ to charge people money for the transmission of this information , in yet , not one person in the school , after all these years , can consistently work with these laws to produce extraordinary results . I would guess the people who have spent years in this school have no more abilities in this way, than people with similar interests , who have never learned anything taught in RSE . For example I have no interest in what is taught in RSE but I do pay attention , and I usually find myself thinking of friends who are thinking of me , and I have a pretty good idea what is in my mail box , email , who is calling on the phone , before I actually look to see . On some level we are all connected , and sometimes this underlying fact shines through the tangle of all our perceptions of separateness .

In my own life I have had many very extraordinary experiences and I have never had anything to do with RSE or anything RSE teaches .

For one thing I have no desire for extraordinary powers . Why would I want that? What is “ fabulous wealth” ? All the blueberry cream puffs I can eat ? Finding a dress I really like , for two bucks in the thrift store ,and finding that still fits even after I ate all those cream puffs ?

I mean really, once we have enough to eat and we are warm and not hurting , and we have the reasonable expectation these basic needs will continue to be met , all the rest of the stuff we strive for is just symbolism . Symbols to tell ourselves we really are lovable and valuable .

So is fabulous wealth being lovable and valuable? If so ,is being lovable and valuable something you sit at home alone in front of a mirror , and tell yourself “Oh you are so lovable and valuable “? Loveable and valuable to who ?

Or do you go out into the world ,to make sure everybody feels loved and valued, and everybody has enough to eat and is warm and not hurting ? Would that be fabulous wealth ? If so each of us already has it to give , but not to have . Why would anyone charge people to learn about that ?

I don't think an Ascended Master would create a school to teach something that could not be learned . An Ascended Master would make a realistic evaluation of their own powers , and abilities to teach , and would realistically assess their students ability to learn . An Ascended master would have the insight and the foresight not to waste time , and create confusion by teaching something that could not be learned by the person receiving the lessons . Even mediocre parents understand the limits of their children's abilities . What parent would try and teach their 2 year old to drive a car , or their five year old how to manage the family law firm ? Am I supposed to believe an Ascended master doesn't even have the understanding and foresight of a mediocre parent ? And what parent after being so stupid to try and teach their 2 year old to drive , or expecting their 5 year old to manage their law firm , would have a melt down when the little ones couldn't do this and just walk off leaving them in the drivers seat with the car running ?

If that is an Ascended Master , what use are they ?

So , if JZ is channeling something , it almost certainly isn't an Ascended master , but if she is channeling something , it seems fair to conclude it is claiming to be an Ascended master, but it isn't, and instead it is a big fat liar .

Someone who might be channeling a big fat liar is not what I would look for , if I was looking for spiritual guidance .

Now as I understand it , a lot of stuff on the astral plane and in the spirit world really isn't the kind of folks you would want to open your home to . A lot of what is on the astral plane is lost souls , or the spirit equivalent of a jonesing crack head . In fact almost all the worlds tried and true spiritual teachings specifically recommend people avoid messing around in the spirit world at all , because , if you do you are very likely to get psychically mugged . What most time tested religions recommend as a spiritual path ,is to work on becoming a very morally strong person and dedicate ourselves to good and selfless work . If we do this , then sometimes good spirits come and help us in our work . But they come when there is a need , not at 9 pm when everyone in the auditorium is seated . They come for one person alone just as readily as to a big audience . The come to the poor just as readily as they come to the rich . And they come to those who owe a great debt to society just as readily as they come to those who paid an admission fee .

But there is probably some lower spirits who would be all to happy to show up at 9 pm to perform for an adoring audience .

So , based on my own experience of these things , if JZ is channeling something it is almost certainly a lower spirit or spirits . Lower spirits can do some pretty amazing things – such as happens in haunted houses . But following lower spirits is just plain silly . They are lost , and if you have to deal with them , these lost spirits need help to get their sense of direction and move on , not the other way around .

The next possibility is that it is all a con so JZ can make money .

And the other thing I have wondered is if it is a US government mind control experiments . I have noticed a few comments in this discussion forum that sound like this possibility has occurred to some other folks besides myself .

What is real, is that I see otherwise sane and normal people who are willing to overlook the many contradictions , and warning signs , and believe and act on stuff as crazy as the reported story that Ramtha told everyone twinkies have a life prolonging chemical , so everyone began eating twinkies .

That in itself , "exists". Even if Ramtha doesn't .

What this says about how easily some peoples minds can be controlled , against all logic or reasonable self preservation , and what this information might be used to do , and might already be being used to do , in the wrong hands , is really really scary .

I think there is something to be learned in everything that happens , and this might be the true teaching . That our mental freedom , and democracy are a lot more fragile than we ever may have previously imagined and perhaps some steps need to be taken to protect people from this sort of mind control and abuse , not just in RSE , but in other ways as well .

Should advertisers who use forms of mind control be able to manipulate us to keep us consuming products we don't need , or electing leaders who do not serve the common good , when we know the consequences of this are planetary destruction?

If Ramtha has any “teaching” that is real , it might be that we need to seriously consider how very fragile our freedom of mind , that allows us free choice , actually is . Perhaps what people went through at RSE is "a real teaching " in that it might be really important , that as a society we begin to consider how we might safeguard the freedom of our minds .

I am reminded of the old saying , “The devil often does not know for who he works .”

But there is no way I believe Ramtha is an Ascended Master, in the true sense of this .

Thanks for letting me rant .

Hope this might help someone somewhere . We are not alone .

Take care !

"safeguard the freedom of our minds"

AG,
Thanks for a clear and logical analysis of RSE. All of your points are valid. There is no question that JZ/Ramtha hijack innocence in the name of power, control and money.

The one thing we have learned from RSE is that the human mind is vulnerable and easily subject to control. And, yes, we have to possess awareness and be willing to act in order to safeguard the freedom of our minds.

To the revolution!

Daughter said, "Or do you go out into the world ,to make sure everybody feels loved and valued, and everybody has enough to eat and is warm and not hurting ? Would that be fabulous wealth ? If so each of us already has it to give , but not to have . Why would anyone charge people to learn about that ?"

Hmmm...me thinks JZ could learn a lot from YOU, daughter.

Instead of copyrights, events for a price-for-enlightenment, and other control tactics, why not just give "truth", if you believe you have it, to the masses for free ? Otherwise, one has an agenda ATTACHED to it.

P.S. The teachings state that we should not be ATTACHED $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Has anyone really taken the timeto look at who it is that speaks through all these postings?.... Is it not the fabled personality with its axe to grind? Have any experienced the reality of oneness in their life to be such an authority on spiritual laws and teachings? The soul would take from the teachings what was needed for its growth and move on without denigration of all and sundry (it's lesson complete or to be continued). For others that follow the path they had tread, would be their own lessons. Ramtha or no Ramtha, a lesson exists for all who made route along that path.... It is for each to know the truth for themselves if they would really travel the spiritual path and learn/not learn the lessons set before them. It is an alone path in which strength and stability is born through hard labour and many a mistake. To discuss them does not do justice to the soul but engenders a less meaningful debate in which the negative image is allowed to disrupt potential growth.... Of course, you could also be wrong? Go within and find your own truth and move on and cause no harm to self or others.

Just look at the life of JZ and Ramtha and wonder at the truth of their own placement on the path.... Were they not strong enough in their own convictions, the teachings would have colapsed many a year ago and those who received something would have nothing with which to go forward. Take what you can from the teachings without maligning the teachers.... they too could have got it wrong (who knows?, who cares?) but they tried and that is all important in the evolution of spirit. Truth too is transient by its very nature of being - If it were not, life would stagnate. How many times have each of you said something only to realise a short while later that it was no longer true for you but it was true at the time and your future truth encompasses what appears now as a lie to some other you gave it to. That's how truth is.... It's built up word by word, sentence by sentence, line by line, paragraph by paragraph, page by page, chapter by chapter and book by book. It is an ongoing story... (built on untrue truths).

With love and light to you all...

from a non rse but life student.

Greetings noname and welcome,


Before I give my tuppence worth...
Are you a current RSE student or have you attended any RSE events in the past?

David.

Hi No Name,

Thanks for sharing ...your...perspective. As I'm sure you have gleaned from the other postings, not everyone shares your perspective. Perhaps others have a different truth than yours. Perhaps not.

Noname.......

Interesting post from such a wise noname.

Ones name is a window into their soul. Being a noname you must be as Ramtha the souless one.

Now I am a souless one too. This came the way of being by being an over anxious student at the RSE.

"Has anyone taken the time to look at who it is that speak through all these postings"?

Why yes I have.

My post are not a "crying in my beer stein".

My post are an alternative to what one WILL expect when they go to the RSE.

They will expect the advertised remarkable spectacular.

It is not that way at all without the total destruction of the idea of what spectacular is.

And the fact of the matter is that ALL those who continue to go and pay to see the game at RSE are further away from understanding than the very first day they attended RSE when they expected to find the keys to the understanding.

Since you are a wise noname one then you have accepted your doctrine as a noname.

You will wonder the spiral spiritual path, word by word, paragraphs by paragraph, page by page,volume by volume, library by library, until finally someone throws a Montauk Cocktail on all your work and all crashes to the bottom of the sea to become habitat for another.

It is not enough "To be strong in their convictions".

Megalomaniacs are strong in their convictions of delusions of grandeur, Joan of Arc being a prime example, and Joan lead countless to slaughter in the name of penis envy. (for those that don't know Judeye was said to be Joan of Arc.)

Noname..... I don't quite understand what you are doing at this post.

You either do not know what really goes on at RSE or you really do know what goes on at RSE.

Either way.

Ramtha told Judeye in the very beginning to "do what ever you want to do and be done with it."

In my mind she is still doing what Joan of Arc did lifetimes ago with an elitist attitude toward those with other ideas of opinions.

Judi may still be Leading countless to slaughter all for the sake of her ideal.

"I don't call that righteous leadership. I call that dictatorial suppression."

And since the majority who post on this site are not welcomed or legally allowed to post their past experiences at RSE, by decree of the dictatorial executive powers at RSE, then I must hereby ask that noname go back and sit on the ledge of the mansion with the rest of the gargoyles.

See my friend. Your book and all their chapters don't mean **** to me.

The Wolfman

dear noname.
I use color and I am American painter. My friend uses colour and is a Brit. You could be from the Commonwealth then, eh, as you share your common wealth of wisdom. Or do you view yourself as so uncommon as to have no name---you, sweet soul, are of the eternal ether that permneates the length and depth of the entire known and unknown universe...how honored or honoured we be then.

You say:
"Truth too is transient by its very nature of being - If it were not, life would stagnate. How many times have each of you said something only to realise a short while later that it was no longer true for you but it was true at the time and your future truth encompasses what appears now as a lie to some other you gave it to."

You do not labor but labour you do when you write the truth, or, have you changed your mind already about what you wrote? Your truth is slippery then as you indicate. Can we trust you at all then? Is there anything in no name that speaks with responsibility? Do laws of physics and gravity apply to you or do you float about the earth like some windy spirit? How have you arrived at the conclusion that there is a Ramtha and a Judy or is this no conclusion at all?

You too then may come to see that they are one and the same---truth be mutable, windy one.....as you say.


forgive my sarcasm, but you post, noname, surely begs for it.
Joe

noname has a name in her email its FrancesKay, wonder why she doesn't use it (could be a he too)

I think you are funny noname. Why do you think Ramtha/JZ are strong in their conviction as though they have some integrity, don't you understand its a scam, JZ is just a clever sales woman and has the charisma to pull it off - a la Hitler.

You talk about truth but dont you understand many people were lied to and deceived through RSE, you are naive to post the way you did.

Somebody called me Sebastian...

AKA wolf-chopper, a friend of noname.
My RSE-status: future attendance completed!

Wolfman......
„
Ones name is a window into their soul....
My post are not a "crying in my beer stein".
„

Perhaps you should not drink so much COLD beer before howling, because your ululation appears as squeaking
of a puppy!
Are you stucked in opinions or in past mind patterns?
Do not disappoint me.. or you have to..
Go back to school so you may BECOME a wise Wolfman!


Joe.....
you are full of sarcasm, your paintings and writings too, begging for even more sarcasm!


Aussiegirl.....
„Many people were lied to and deceived through RSE,“...
are you speaking in the name of your boyfriend?


Kindest regards,
- Sebastian -

My RSE-status: future attendance completed!go sebastian.our wolf will not plug your feathers he has biger prey.jz will plug them.be shure to bring enough gold for your attendants [otherwise there is no ramtha for you]remember this site it will be here when you wake up.thanks for the sundaylaugh.jumping in the meatgrinder because you heard a wolf howling..ha ha

ex - you seem to be a wise ex, it is seldom on this forum, nowadays. and thanks for clarifying ‚who is who‘ in the wolves-prey game. there is no meatgrinder in my household, because i am used to eat the prey as whole.continue laughing..

God you guys! One thing for sure..would you people be saying all this to each other around the coffee table? Yay for the anonymous internet!

My 2 cents...Ramtha "exists", just because you all are talking about Him.
"He" existed and "came" to me personally before I even saw the image on a video, in person, or by book.
Prove me wrong..I cant prove me right.
And I think JZ may have scammed You All the same way our president is now, or all the other Bible people...same ****, but really, her audience isnt nearly as big as some of those other brainwashers, including Hollywood actors or musicians that get screaming idiots in the thousands
Anyway, I cant wait till we find out the answer to this posts question....and WHO and HOW will the answer come and be THE answer???????

"Go Back To School So That I Can Become A Wise Wolfman."

Saint Sebaste, your august body is showing prematurely don't you think?

The Golden Legend Aurea is a fact indeed, but one can only ask the questions of advancement through adversity and the likes of Saint Peter was ***** in that regard.

I hear tell that there is a "make up event" at RSE coming up.

For those who wish to be with God. For a price.

I imagine that you will be there with bells on.

Seesallsides wrote:

"He existed and "came" to me personally before
I even saw the image on a video, in person, or by
book. Prove me wrong… I cant prove me right.”

If you can’t prove Ramtha’s existence, then tell us
what he is like: thin, tall, Middle Eastern, or is he a
sphere of light without a bodily essence?

Better yet, tell us what he has brought to the world:
that we may know his spirit through his good works.
Have his teachings:

developed new farming methods?
given us new forms of art or music?
advanced the science of education?
produced a loving community in Yelm?
engineered renewable energy sources?
created new medical technologies?

I would answer emphatically “no” to all the above.
Ramtha has brought nothing to the world but a school
designed to help students escape from reality, not transform
it.

Therefore, does it matter if Ramtha exists? He is less than the
wind in my hair. He is nothing.

Sebastian - I am not talking about my boyfriend (he is like you, still completely immersed in the cult of RSE) but about all the people on this forum, all you have to do is read the posts.

What is so funny is that people who follow JZ/Ramtha think they are have knowledge the rest of us are denied - whilst we watch you and laugh at your naivety.

When will you wake up and understand all the answers are within you, how unevolved you are.