Housekeeping: As is posted on the EMF Message Board page, this forum is for support, sharing opinions and experiences for those who have left RSE and have doubts and concerns about their tenure there. It is NOT a place for proselytizing for RSE, JZK Inc or Ramtha. Play nicely or your post will be sent to cyberspace time-out for all eternity. The disclaimer for EMF is located on this page http://enlightenmefree.com/disclaimer.html and all posters agree to the terms of the disclaimer. Be sure you've read it before posting.
You may also want to visit a complementary forum at FACTNet http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/779.html
If you wish to use a Spell Checker, you may wish to use this free one: http://www.jacuba.com/
I've tried to respond to your post with no success. Perhaps there is a limit to postings on a thread and we've met that limit. In any case, I'm going to start this thread to respond to the Myss/Shealy conversation we've been having.
I am not concerned with you letting the lion out, because I’m not at all invested in “having to agree”. You are welcome to tell me you think that my “liking” Myss’ work means that I’m a nut case. I would disagree. (smile)
I have a lot of questions, if you will bear with me and give time to answering them. I was told more than once in my life that I had more questions than a Philadelphia lawyer. Maybe that’s so. If I have too many questions for you, that’s okay, too. I’ll understand !
If I read what your saying correctly, you just don’t believe that Myss has the ability to intuitively know what the medical condition of a person. Or if you do, that she hasn’t been tested according to a certain protocol, it’s not valid to you. Do you also disregard any/all anecdotal evidence in other areas, and or think it’s worthless for consideration toward new realizations, including in science ? Conversely, do you believe that all scientific studies are accurate ? Do you believe that ANY human being has the ability to intuit the medical status of another person’s health ?
Joe said, "This is about protecting yourself from someone else's "flawed" reality".
Okay, we’ll set aside the fraud issue. What, however, is your view of her "flawed" reality ?
Joe said, "Myss made a choice (intuitive?) to get a degree from a disreputable school, a diploma mill. PhD is supposed to mean something in my world. If you accept what Myss got from Greenwich U, then you have to lower your standards for PhD or completely change what that stands for"
I agree that having a Ph.D. should “mean something”. However, I would say that if you believe that earning a Ph.D. from an accredited American university guarantees that “education” of a certain level occurred, maybe you should look further. There are politics involved, and it is not all about “education”, but to a degree (no pun intended), indoctrination.
I could write a lot about that topic, but it’s far removed from the purpose here, so I’ll stop. You may want to read this: http://thormay.net/unwiseideas/scholarship.html
As for Myss’ Ph.D. degree, let’s just assume it’s worthless, for the sake of argument. What does that prove about her intuitive ability, however ? Are the two things related ? What exactly is FLAWED about Myss’s REALITY, in your view? Do you believe she does not have the intuitive ability that Shealy claims she does ? Or that Myss herself claims she does ?
>>>>Norm Shealy: I just read a few dozen pages of stuff by him and on him.
For the sake of simplicity, I'll stick to one interview with him from 1993 to point out why I distrust his views as a "doctor."
Joe, I read the article and I like it. Many of the things he said are true. I have personally spoken with physicians and nurses in my own area who complain about how controlled they are, and to think they are allowed to practice the ART of MEDICINE, is ….naïve. I also know people with years of experience in the insurance industry, and the control issues there are no secret, either. You probably see that in your own work. It’s a “system” more than it is truly about healing people. So Shealy did something about that – good for him. That’s my opinion based on experience. If the comments from Shealy about his “out of body” experiences and such, turn you off to everything else that he said, …maybe…you should reconsider that. Or as they say, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
In this part of that article, “But back in medical school when I was a sophomore, in physical diagnosis, I saw a patient, wrote up my findings and my history, and gave a diagnosis. The professor who was teaching the course was furious, and accused me of cheating, because he didn't think I, as a medical student, could have made the correct diagnosis, which I had. He wrote a long report accusing me of cheating. Interestingly, three years later he begged me to intern there, and apologized for his error. He said "I don't understand what that was, but I know you're honest."
One of my more striking cases was a woman who came in, and the first question I asked her was, "Why are you afraid of having a brain tumor?" I had never asked that of another patient. She broke into tears, and told me her best friend had died of a brain tumor six months earlier.”
Shealy is saying that he is highly intuitive. What is wrong with that ? Do you think he is a liar ?
Joe said with regard to acupuncture, “I know what it is from "experience" and no longer value it highly though I think it has limited value.”
There is nothing wrong with it even with limited value. ALL medicine has limited value.
Joe said, “In medical school NS was a self-proclaimed "maverick". He developed an effective means to treat backpain without surgery (good for him--I'm serious here). NS came to dislike the entire medical industry, so he went alternative.
In my view he became part of the problem, not the solution. He rails against not having enough "family physicians" but he never became one.”
Joe, that’s your opinion, that he never became a family physician, thus it made him part of the problem. You’re certainly entitled to have that belief about what he “should have” done. I don’t agree. It seems to me that he can have the observation that our country needs 75% of physicians to be family physicians, without having to undertake it, himself. I see things in the world, even in the circles I move within, that “should be” ideally, but that doesn’t mean I am the one to go do them. I could encourage it to BE done, however.
As for Shealy’s not liking the “vibes” of psychotic people, how does that discredit him overall, and/or with regard to his claim about Myss’s work being 93% accurate with her medical intution “diagnoses” ? I have a cousin who worked most of her career on the psyche ward of an area hospital. She got tired of “the crazies”, too. I did one rotation there, myself, and it was more than enough for me. Could it just be that Shealy is intuitive, and can pick up on the imbalances in these mentally ill people, and it’s just a lot to have to bear ? Or is he a crackpot for claiming he has an intuitive sense with these things that he does not enjoy, in that capacity?
Joe said, “If you buy that claim at face value, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you in New York.”
For me, it’s not about buying the claim that Shealy made about Myss’s ability to do medical accurate “diagnoses” from her intuitive ability, or not buying the claim. For me, it’s about whether or not anyone can do it. I KNOW three people in my state who can do that. They are not all advertising and marketing themselves as Myss has chosen to do. (Just a comment, not a judgment)
I have known them very personally, for several to 20 years each. They are valid. One was raised in a VERY traditionally Catholic family, and her parents (still living) are practicing Catholics to this day. God gave her parents an extremely psychic daughter. She lives quietly, raising her family, and never advertises for anything. Anyone who goes to her, hears of her by word of mouth. She told me things about myself, medically, before I even knew they existed, in great detail. She told me to go get x-rayed. I did, and she was correct, 100%. I needed surgery and I got it. I had no idea on my own. That’s just one example.
Granted, Myss’s Ph.D. is not from a traditionally accredited university. Granted, Shealy’s admission/claim that he is intuitive and takes that into consideration when working with patients may not be the norm, but is does it invalidate him and his work ? I think he is innocent until proven guilty and in my book, he has not been.
An aside to the readers of this post: given that emotions aren’t necessarily conveyed, or conveyed accurately via the written post, let me just say that this post is respectfully written. I know Joe to a degree and I believe him to be sincere in his work. This is not a contentious post and shouldn’t be perceived as such. It does kindly disagree with some points, however. Maybe he’s not open enough to “intuition” and maybe I’m too open to it, or maybe there is an answer in the middle somewhere, that’s all. What I KNOW, is that it exists, because I grew up and still have, a hefty dose of it. It wouldn’t make sense for me to give consideration to the work of Myss. She comes across to me as a very well balanced person in her views, much, though not all of which, I agree with…and I have never paid to attend her seminars and doubt I ever will. I don’t feel I even need to. I don’t even read/listen to her material on any consistent basis. But, what I have listened to (quite a bit of it), seems reasonable to me, and grounded. Not dangling unattainable carrots. (smile)
Ah, finally, this post went through properly, though it took two posts.
Whatcha.. Its on PAGE 2 of the other thread. Your other response...
my "other" response ? i know i have done several posts today. this one posted on this new thread, is the one i tried posting elsewhere to reply to joe, and it just kept getting truncated. finally, i just said forget it and started this.
anyway, sorry to waste message board space with this. at least i did get it posted. joe knows. he can pick on my about the bridge in new york if he wants to.
Points well taken, and as you can imagine those arguments are not new to me. This is not about intuition by any other name seeming to occur (happens to everyone I meet), it is about knowing how to test the evidence of it.
What I mean by "lion" is a bigger, much more thorough evaluation, an education package, a course, video demonstrations. If one claims to have powers of esp or extraordinary intution, then we should be able to devise satisfactory tests. And we can.
But the lion is not free--and impossible to perform here on emf. Can't be done via email or telephone. No, I am not looking for business---those years are behind me.
Like I said, whatever floats you---if you want to travel in a Myss boat or take a cruise in a Tony Robbins yacht (overrated nlp hype in my view), it's your parade. If you are ready to jump ship, there are boats out here doing quite well without all that.
I thought Wolfman made a good comment about kundalini experience on another thread and how having one does not necessarily make one's life any easier. So true. Most good eastern gurus warn of the dangers as well as the benefits of "opening the chakras". The devotee needs the guidance of a worthy teacher, but finding one is not so easy.
Hospital workers and police officers in general have a belief that there is more activity around full moon days. (In the early 80s I studied astrology and could cast a horoscope and give rudimentary readings. After more study, came to see it as bogus). Just for fun a few years ago I ran statistics for several years of admission activity at my psych hospital. If full moon had any effect, then we should have had at least a 0.5 patients more on average on those days (I included the day before and after also) to be statistically meaningful. Guess what.....full moon days were 0.01 patients less, statistically not meaningful. iow, no difference.
A new employee started here last year. She has a master degree in forensic psychology. For her thesis (she was in the UK)she looked for evidence of full moon influence on various kinds of crime activity in London over a decade. Guess what....no evidence of any difference from any other day.
Still, police and nurses here keep on saying: Oh, we're going to be busy----full moon tomorrow!
My retort is: The moon is always full---depends on your point of view (except of course during an eclipse).
My point is that strong beliefs can immunize us against critical evaluation. We will struggle to justify anything, not matter how weak the premise if we believe and do not exercise reason.
Be careful, stop and think.
watcha....I ask this of all my clients who defend their all knowing gurus (rev moon, rajneesh/osho, rama lenz, adi da, ramtha, mafu, chinmoy, ------over 100 names just in my personal client base) and how they can defend! Talk about rationalizations.
What would your guru have to do before you would stop believing in him or her?
Some, during the beginning of intervention, actually will justify lies, murder and rape if it was their guru---now that's loyalty!
So I ask, what in your mind would you have to prove before you would not justify a teacher?
Can Myss do anything wrong? What evidence would you accept? Do you want everything handed to you on a silver platter (show me the money, do it for me) or will you take the hard road and follow the indicators to where they lead?
Some of my peers and I took the hard road with Theosophy and channeling cults---years of work. Swallowed a lot of "crow" along the way, but we learned to work with the lion. Tough beast. Still working on it!
Yes, Joe, the human condition is such that we want to believe with all of our might. Speaking of other gurus, this is a riveting story:
Bhagwan The God That Failed by Hugh Milne
Hugh Milne was OSHO's bodyguard and describes his experiences over the years. Reading about another organization provides insight into RSE.
I am not familiar with Myss, though I have skimmed some material by her.
I would like to throw in my 2 cents about intuitiveness.
I am doing this because what I think you both have brought up has great value and to also hone in on to what extent intuition plays in getting involved and staying involved in a group, worldview, similar to rse.
Firstly , I would like to recognize the potential for any discussion of intuition to be taken personally. We (and I don't use that term all that often, I do when it includes myself and I believe it includes virtually all) all have developed our intuition to a certain extent.
Many of us have a tendency to reject that, which does not fit our worldview. Once rejected, we tend to find an alternative explanation that SEEMS more logical.
We make the assumption that according to our present accumulation of knowledge that the world SHOULD make sense. Most of the time this assumption works well for us. However, when we encounter situations, thoughts, that our understanding does not include, the premise that we might normally operate by can begin to break down.
When this happens, we often find any explanation that might fit. While doing this may make us feel more comfortable, it can have the potential to give us a false sense of reality. When Joe speaks of protecting ones self from someone’s "flawed" reality. This is how I understand it (please chime in Joe if you think I am off base or would like to elaborate).
Back to intuition,
If intuition is developed through our life experiences, then I might go so far to venture that our intuition is only as valid as the lens through which our life experiences has been viewed. (Garbage in, garbage out so to speak)
To simply have intuition to whatever degree is not the issue. How one integrates it in their lives and finds it helpful is.
EX. How many of you have ever been cutting a vegetable or something else, and cut yourself and known the second before that you might be cut and curse yourself for not paying attention? I know I have. My intuition warned me, from either personal experience or indirect knowledge that because of the way I was cutting, holding, or acting etc
Intuition is a seemingly unconscious process, once recognized though it can be analyzed to see where it came from and determine if it is of value or not.
In rse and groups like it, you are supposed to leave your previous worldview (the sum of your experiences) at the door. You are taught to distrust what you have previously known in order to accept whatever "new reality" they are selling.
My thoughts on this are that in doing so they basically disarm one of their existing intuitions, which would normally raise red flags. Once the slate has been wiped clean, they then "create" new experiences, which in turn a person, develops a "new" intuition.
Wipe the slate clean might give the wrong impression, I do not mean that they erase ones previous experiences, but through a series of processes they cover it up. Think of it in terms of putting one blanket over another and another to cover up ones previous experiences.
After a while, the blankets become many, sure one may have moments when they remove a few, but as long as they continue they keep on being put back on.
Since intuition is such a subjective personal process and state of mind, once one realizes that their intuition has been fooled, misled, or deceived without ones permission it can be a very intense realization. One which has to get processed in ones own time, dependent upon how much one is willing, able, capable to deal with it at any given moment.
The key word for me is permission. Did any of you specifically give permission to have your intuition rearranged, replaced, when joining the school? Do I see that anywhere on the website that that is what one will encounter in these "great works"??
I can see cases where one may want to have their intuition restructured, ex. If a person has serious self-esteem issues where their intuition is telling them that everyone thinks they are less then they really are. In that case one seeks out professional help. They also know that the professional help they seek out is bound by professional codes of conduct (though that does not mean it will always be followed) and they have some sort of recourse when it is not.
I would like to hear from others their views on how intuition effected their joining and remaining and leaving rse.
Definitions rule when discussing anything. What do we mean by intuition?
If you (like Myss) mean some power like esp that can be tapped and cultivated, then you are not in my world view or definition.
Intuition for me is the sum total of our ability to react instantly to information or a situation. When something utterly extraordinary happens in my life that seems paranormal, I no longer get excited by it. I do not call that intuition. I have no explanation nor do I seek one, nor will I go to a workshop by some Ramtha to develop that quality. I simply note it, and if it good, treat it as a "gift" from ????
Recently a "esp" lab at Princeton shut down after 28 years of unremarkable evidence to support esp, telekinesis.
This pattern has been repeated over and over again since the 19th century. Test it honestly and properly and it seems to "go away."
I recommend if you have done no research on this, to read Dr Susan Blackmore's books. She's interesting and thorough.
her autobiography is a good start: In Search of the Light: The Adventures of a Parapsychologist (1987)
"If you (like Myss) mean some power like esp that can be tapped and cultivated, then you are not in my world view or definition."
I am not sure if you were responding to my post above or not. I would like to clarify something in the event you were.
I too believe definitions are of great importance if we are to communicate effectively. My definition of intuition is the fairly standard one. being the process by which one knows (or believes they know) something without overt rational thought.
In my worldview this is not a process which is taught or represents any sort of "special power" such as esp, nor that it can be cultivated or trained.
I was attempting to bring the conversation away from if this Myss person is a "valid" intuitive or not and towards what role intuition might play in getting involved in unusual worldviews like those expressed in rse.
While I recognize my own intuitive process (after the fact) and for the most part trust and use it in my daily life, there are times when it has been sooooooooo completely wrong and strewn havoc in my life that I also recognize its vunerabilities and the need to examine it.
I do not mean intuition in the gnostic sense, nor am I a proponent of that.
My own intuitive abilities appear to be in mathmatics, time,space and personalities. In other areas I admit to being intuitivly retarded!
That does not mean I am a mathamatician, or atomic clock. All that and .50 cents still won't buy me a cup of coffe.
However, it does allow me not to need a watch, or have to keep a balance in my checkbook. It is not miraculous or anything which does not have an explaination for it. In fact, it does not always do me much good.
In high school, in geometry, I seemed to immediatly grasp the theroms and always challanged why I needed to know the proofs. I did that because I did totally understood. The same in algebra. I would be able to almost instantly come up with answers (very elementry algebra) without knowing how it occured which was fine with me. As the math got tougher, my answers became less and less acurate, not too far off but I figured it was close enough for me. I could not see then why I needed to get it down to the 6th decimal if i could get it fairly close to the whole number.
I never thought I would have to deal with that sort of accuracy. Today over 35 years later. I understand and still have to struggle with my past dependance on my intuitivness when I am doing something which requires that sort of acuracy. For myself, I think I am in the position of being an old dog an not wanting to learn new tricks. However if I met myself as I was then, I would be able to explain the importance of being able to prove even what may seem obvious.
I am able to know what time it is within 3-5 min almost all the time. But take away what is in my experience about knowing what time it is, ie clocks around, put the sun behind clouds, in otherwords, my reference points and I am sure this ability would suffer.
I have what I consider to be excellent spacial perception, over an area of 40 feet I could more then likely judge the distance within 1/2 a foot, in 3 feet within 1/4 inch, 2 feet or less within 1/8 inch or dead on. I am engaged in measurement quite a bit so I have lots of reference points for my intuition to process. Greater distances then that though and my intuition would probably fall down and flop.
I believe that intuition operates from the sum of ones experience and reference points. I would like to hear from others if they felt that their own reference points changed, remained the same, changed back again, how they felt they might have changed, and the why and how through thier involvement in rse.
I know I was trying to bring the conversation away from this Myss lady but I cannot resist giving my "intuitive" opinion.
I would say she is making mountains out of mole hills. I say this because 93% efficacy in the medical field intuitivly sounds unrealistic to me and the fact that I have only heard about 1 Dr. attesting to the veracity of what she does leads me in that direction also. The fact that there are not more (thpough there may be) speaks volumes to me.