I call myself onehandontheelephant because I believe that each of us has our own experience of the “truth,” just like the blind men who each touched and described an elephant in a very different way. I hope the following experience of mine will be of some value to those who seek to make known the unknown about JZ Knight and RSE.

The following events took place in the early- to mid-1990s. (If anyone needs to know exactly when they took place, I will try to dig up my calendars from those years). Roy resident Lloyd F. Hopkins (now deceased) had developed a program for expanding human awareness beyond the five senses. Specifically, in a set number of weekly lessons (which took a little over a year), he trained blind (and sighted) people to see without the use of their physical eyes. Although his book, Mind Sight and Perception, published in 1988, is out of print, it’s available as an e-book through the following link (I have my own print copy but have nothing to do with selling the e-book): http://www.clspress.com/mindsight.html

I and other friends who were Ramtha students at the time attended demonstrations of Mind Sight. We also saw a videotape of a Seattle TV news reporter’s experience in which Mr. Hopkins left the room while the female reporter wrote something on a piece of paper and sealed it in an envelope. Hopkins returned to the room and the reporter held the sealed envelope behind her back. Hopkins read the message, to the amazement of the reporter. (The M.S. book contains specific, detailed information such as names and photos of M.S. students, organizations where M.S. demonstrations took place, and newspaper articles about those demonstrations.)

A few years later, after I had stopped attending RSE, I asked Mr. Hopkins to train me in Mind Sight. Although he had been accepting only blind students for a while, he agreed to give me the weekly lessons if I would help him write another book. HE SAID THAT HIS PRACTICE OF MIND SIGHT HAD LED HIM TO SPONTANEOUSLY EXPERIENCE LEVITATION, DEMATERIALIZATION AND REMATERIALIZATION, AND OTHER THINGS OUTSIDE THE NORMAL REALM OF HUMAN EXPERIENCE. HE WAS ELDERLY BY THEN, AND HE WANTED TO GET HIS METHODS IN WRITING. Some of these experiences are described in the e-book. I should also note that Hopkins never charged for M.S. training and didn’t allow those he trained to charge for teaching M.S. to others.

I had several of his weekly lessons. Then one day, when I showed up for my session, Hopkins was extremely upset. He said he could not teach me anymore, because he couldn’t trust anyone from Yelm. When I asked why, he explained that he’d had one other sighted student, a woman, whom he’d been teaching for quite a while. She had just confessed to him that she had come to care for and respect him so much, SHE COULDN’T LIE TO HIM ANY LONGER. SHE SAID THAT JZ KNIGHT HAD SENT HER TO SPY ON HOPKINS for two reasons: 1) She was supposed to report back to JZ on Hopkins’ methods for Mind Sight training and why they worked so well (the implication this woman gave Hopkins was that Mind Sight worked much better than methods taught at RSE). 2) She was supposed to try to get specific names of Hopkins’ students so that JZ could get the names of any RSE students who were getting trained by Hopkins.

Well, I did my best to assure Mr. Hopkins that I was no longer affiliated in any way with JZ or RSE, but he said he felt so betrayed that he would never teach anyone from Yelm. He died a few years later.

I leave it to you all to ponder the questions this raises about RSE and JZ.

Did you know Dorthy Thomas.... I recall her telling me that she was studing with this man in the early 90's?

It sounds like the same guy..

Ijust purchased the EBOOK.... I will take a peek it was only 10.00.

I never knew Dorothy Thomas. The book gives the names, experiences, and even some photos of about 4 accomplished Mind Sight students.

Onehand:
We'll probably order this book too, thanks so much for the post, I went to the site. And thanks for some info about it. Just the fact that the book gives, NAMES, EXPERIENCES and PHOTOS is a breath of fresh air!!!!

Thanks for this thread and story. I had the Mindsight Book and video in those days, they were sold thru the RSE bookstore. I thought the RSE, and Mr. Hopkins just "came about" at the same time, and were doing similar work...simply because of syncronicity. To hear this about the spying, is very important. and dissapointing.... I knew a woman in Eatonville who was also approached by JZ, and offered a job to share some of her innate psychic arts, if she would agree to let "Ramtha" use her tecniques in the school setting. This woman did not want to, and suffered some ire from JZ after that. She told me about this in 94, which was a year after I left RSE.
I am pleased to see more people writing in this forum, and on thier way out to be " on thier own".
I used to think that Ramthas tricking and Lying approach WAS a good thing for keeping people from relying so much on him. The reason I went to the school was to DO stuff, not to "be near him" or to get love, etc..I just liked the support for speeding up on the miraculous. AND all the information that came from here about the World at large...I thought it was a great community for all that exposure.....
but I never abandoned listening to my heart, and soon I left RSE. The red flag for me was the wierd atmosphere in the arena after the event was over, and numerous dealings I had with staff and other people who seemed to have no will power of thier own, and who often chastised me for using my strong emotions [will power], to get what I wanted.
One time it involved getting a refund for an event that was cancelled after being advertized wrongly. When I was told I couldnt,[and I NEEDED the money back NOW!!!] after 3 attempts [in one day] I got told "write a letter to JZ explaining bla bla..." Jeezes, I thought. so I did..I wrote a letter in huge red ink, and had it passed on to JZ,[by phone call] and the words in there werent Kind. It was her error that I even bought the ticket...etc...and I needed the refund TODAY
It was my last $30.00, you know, going to some event, instead of other needs... and the staff person told me
"go do C&E and get the money you need another way',...[no kidding, she said that]
and implied my poverty was a problem, that I was grovelling for that 30.00 refund. I could taste her arrogance and insult.
Well, with much loud persistance in the bookstore, in front of customers...I got the refund..."BECAUSE I BELIEVE that ANYTHING is POSSIBLE," I said out loud... and I told that girl who snubbed me right there that refund rules dont have to matter, so give me the money NOW! I NEED IT TODAY! ...A customer listening tried calming me down..."dont be so emotional"
It worked. Probably to shut me up, the money came out of the cash drawer, as in those days you bought tickets at the old bookstore.....that lady looked defeated, as if she "lost" a game or something....... a few months later she got killed in a head on car crash. Not that that means anything, but you know,....????
I just didnt see why JZs position had to be bigger and better than mine, and her rules out of reach to be bent.. when all I wanted was a little 30.00 refund.....
So, BE WORTHY of what you want and need..
I just encourage everyone reading this to trust your self and your heart and just take the school lightly, if you do go there, but try to bring that magic back out on the streets here, because this "mundane reality" really needs our light.
And dont believe In the Rams power...
HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN HIM WITH BLINDERS ON GOING AFTER HIS CARD????????????????????????????????????????

"HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN HIM WITH BLINDERS ON GOING AFTER HIS CARD???????????????????????????????????????? "

LOL SAS,

I for one would have liked to have seen him stand by some of the blind archery targets!

Interesting point you made in displaying your emotion and the responses you received.

The denigration of having emotions and thier power over one in rse shows one of the biggest examples of the bait and switch.

"Through this teaching........You will learn how how to feel, profoundly, so that you gain the TRUEST [EMPAHSIS MINE] treasure of this plane: emotion. ...."

White book pg 24

HEY SWEETIE!! (seesall)
Great to hear from you again!!!
"ANYTHING is POSSIBLE" and so be THAT!
Thanks for the input on the work onehand mentioned. We downloaded it this morning. Very cool!
There are alot of new people posting and it is refreshing to read, great story Thank you and YES YES YES I agree... if you are here in this "Greater Rainer Area" and no longer in the "school" you have much MUCH to offer to the light, which will not, and has not been extinguished by a bit of shoddy shim-sham. We CAN take what we want and LEAVE THE REST!

Yes Id like that question asked on KRSE of DR Gregg or someone, and a riot insistant that Ram DO this at an event...no excuses...do the field work!! Do the tank!!!!
A riot in the arena..wont someone organize that? Demand that Ramtha walk his talk.

PS. IN the field one day I found JZs card TWICE. It said the word "truth"

SO BE It

OH sweet journey Thanks for that too!!
"I for one would have liked to have seen him stand by some of the blind archery targets"
He was right there, didnt you see him off to the left, thats the PAST, right? Not right, the left... No wait "who's on first" smoke and mirrors, snakes and ladders... its all the same game, ya know?
Untill...
"Through this teaching........You will learn how how to feel, profoundly, so that you gain the truest treasure of this plane: emotion. ...."

also known as ... YOUR SELF

has anyone seen JZ or the Ram do any diciplines like the field or tank?

I would love to stand up this week at BC and demand Ram do a card in the field and remote view a card I have in my pocket.

Should be a breeeeze for a God!!!!

If he walks right to his card and describes my card to a "T", i'll move to Yelm tomorrow and be a RSE promoter for free.

No, I have never seen JZ or Ramtha demonstrate proof of the teachings. We have every right to demand from any teacher that they show their credentials. For instance, would it ever be okay as a medical student to be taught a surgical procedure by a professor who has never performed surgery, or even has a medical background? Of course not. You trust that whatever school you are attending has qualified & credentialed teachers. There is absolutely no proof at RSE that Ramtha ever existed, or that what is being taught is enlightenment. In the absence of concrete proof, like there are no university degrees given in enlightenment, then one would at the very least expect that what is being taught is demonstrated with measurable results. Personally, I did not see JZ, Ramtha, or the RSE teachers back up anything. I suspended basic common sense for a very long time to see if it was just around the corner!

I have never observed it either. People ASSUME Ramtha's presentation is correct because of his demeanour of authority.

Clearly from some of the other posts it becomes apparent that some of his omniscient insights are false and yet if you did not know the individuals involved you could assume they are correct.

Isn't it AMAZING... if any one else rolled in to town makeing these claims... we woulddemand proof.

But under the unbrella of CHANNELING.... it is ok to make claim after claim and not demonstrate it.

"But under the unbrella of CHANNELING.... it is ok to make claim after claim and not demonstrate it."

What is it in us that doesn't ask for it?

I studies with another Channel who quite frequently woud say, it would serve no purpose for him to DEMONSTRATE his powers... becuase we would only want to worship and follow him.

But in truth, now, that is exactly what people do.

Smile.

An excellent point, Jackson. The people who are "followers" in a cult, are going to do just that whether or not the Leader has demonstrated his/her credentials to the students to prove/earn credibility for teaching the subjects they claim they have expertise in.

"Ramtha" has told students that "he" would never allow his photo to be taken for pictures because just like people hang pictures of Jesus on their wall and they worship Jesus, Ramtha didn't want students worshipping him/his picture.

Years later, guess what ? Ramtha's picture was on sale. Not just one pose, but MANY. Big pictures, small pictures, bookmark pictures....

He also said he came here to channel through the body of a woman because women are THE most prejudiced against species on the planet. AND, if that weren't enough, His Arrogant Self said that he just can't show himself to us students in his real body by materializing in front of us because he is just SO darn handsome that we'd all fall on our knees and instantly worship him. I kid you not.

To Ramtha I say, "Get over youself, dude."

OBVIOUSLY, our dearly beloved Teacher has not gotten past his need to create the reality of E-G-O.

There is frequently commentary by The Big Guy about the state of JZ's appearance, too. When she was thin, he commented on her beauty. When she was quite overweight, he ridiculed anyone ELSE who was thin. One woman, who was very thin, Ramtha slugged in the belly and slapped her face, over and over and over, in an audience. Right in front of her husband. I saw it with my own eyes. What a bully.

If he's such a LOVING GOD, then why didn't he heal that woman of her food issues (anorexia), instead of ridiculing her and physically abusing her. It blows my mind that her husband sat there and tolerated that.

But, it goes to show us all, just how flipped out from reality a cult member can be. They lose all reason. They expose their children to things they normally would never allow. They allow their partners to be physically abused and ridiculed in front of 1,000 people and think it's all for their own good because the teacher who has never even proven his credentials as an Ascended God Being, knows better about them than they themselves do.

Frightening when you think of what a cult member might do under certain circumstances, to a non-cult member. Reminds me of the actions of certain gang members. They will kill another human being in the name of the gang.

Re: Whatcha
"Ramtha slugged in the belly and slapped her face..."
I'm glad I missed this "teaching", and just find it amazing that this type of thing could occur and no-one stands up to stop it.
Intimidation?
Why would we rush to assist someone say... falling off a cliff and yet sit by and watch this type of crap take place???

“Why would we rush to assist someone say... falling off a cliff and yet sit by and watch this type of crap take place???

DanceTheWind..

How about…
Psychological coercion mind control by JZ Knight and her cohorts.

Its called "Brainwashing"...

Which makes me wonder if JZ has been a "cathy Obrien" type Victim all these years. Such people can appear to have it all together on the outside you know. Because if she is/was Not in her body the whole time Ram is In There, and then comes back and has to reclaim her life/time...etc....ANyone would be crazy, not having control,and then being Sure that it is thier life calling to be the channel.
Well, here I am gossiping and guessing behind her back.

But this forum is becomming more and more sensefull to me and asking great questions.

Question for Whatcha, Re: the above post
"I saw it with my own eyes."
When this happened, if you can recall, what did it seem like was going on to you?
It seems to me that if people are under mind-control, or brainwashed, their responses might be that they "didnt see it" or felt she "deserved it"... along those lines. Or there may have been those who felt so intimidated by "Ramtha" (and all that may/maynot imply) that they feared speaking up.
Just wondering...

Dance,

What happened ? Ramtha walked up to this woman, who was standing next to her hubby (this is all videotaped, by the way), and since the cameras were on, focused on Ramtha and where he is and who he is talking to at all times, the camera picked up the entire episode, for the whole arena to see. I saw it in person and on the video screen, larger than life.

He walked up to her and engaged the woman in a conversation about taking drugs to stop her appetite and keep her from eating so she would remain very thin. Apparently, this was something her hubby was unaware of. In any case, the went on about JZ, who obviously had personal contact with this couple, also, and who was fed up about something that she believed was not truthful.

This went on back and forth for quite a while. There was silence in the entire arena, as the "tone" (emotionally) was obvious. The woman was very pressured (I would call it coerced) into some admission to her husband that she had taken pills to suppress her appetite. She was mostly silent. Ramtha started yelling at her to tell him. She didn't. So, he started slapping her face, many times. Hard. Then, she was still silent. Then, he hit her in the belly, many times.

She finally started to talk. It was most unpleasant. My opinion is that in that situation, there are MANY thoughts in the other students' minds to explain why they just sit there and do nothing.

1) FEAR
2) Ramtha knows what is best for her
3) Confusion and shock - which can cause inaction
4) Brainwashing
5) Lethargy

I read a study once, that had been done about people in crowds. A staged situation was set up that showed a person who needed help for crime perpetrated in public. It was ignored. This was in a city and people had become ACCLIMATED to this sort of thing, so would walk right by and pay no mind.

I think that is the "lethargy", I am referring to. So, as far as this incident goes, or the similar one just last year when Ramtha slugged a man in the chest/stomach area, repeatedly, in front of his wife and CHILD (hello?? and I saw that myself, also), the same behavior is triggered. Though, it could be for various reasons, overall, depending on a person and where they are at.

What do you think, Dance ?

yea... Jeeeeze What a crazy mess. Thanks for filling out the details. What do I think? I think its all nuts, and I am VERY I mean VERY glad (VERY VERY VERY), that I got out when I did. I didnt see anything like that and I saw enough!

Also Whatcha
We've talked on these threads before about how many of the RSE student body appear to come from abusive backgrounds, and #1.FEAR (kicks up the old stuff)would probably be MY response to this type of scene.
I spent 18+ yrs in "sobriety" and alot I mean ALOT of what appears to go on at RSE with JZ (as the central character) appears to be a totally unrecovered/ing alcoholic.

Dance,

One thing you have is tenacity and strength to have kicked the habit. How many people try and aren't successful in sustaining it. Good for you; it's really something to be proud of.

Looking back and being glad you got out when you did - another good thing. More courage you showed, by being strong enough to walk away.

I'd be interested to hear how you see this all correlating to former drinkers who are not "healed". Could you be more specific about the patterns of behavior you're referring to ?

Whatcha

Seeallsides.....
I think you are right about Judi being O'brien like.
It has been mentioned on this message board that many students who showed up to RSE in the big wave in 1988 had issues of abuse be it spousal, child or for that matter other cult like abuse such as Scientology and black ops government programs.(I knew one man named Jack who I had some interesting conversations with regarding black ops which he was deeply involved with.His wife was in school.He was not. Both are dead now. When Jack moved here from east coast the local law enforcement came to greet him and said they knew about his......clearance levels) There were many ex Scientologist at RSE too over the years I found out in fact that Judi was known to meet with top Scientologist known as The Sea Org at least one time I have been told. They came to Yelm to meet her. Question is. What is the Sea Org doing here?

Once again. Judi is CIA. What that means I do not know.Ramtha once said that Judi's son was a Rothchild last life. And the apple does not fall too far from the tree. The students are guinie pigs in some way and most know this and trust Ramtha. To bad too. Cause the sheep always get shorn.

I just read that the CIA was responsible for the Ponzi Scam Omega. And it has been said that Judi brought Omega to this area. This is some proof of a CIA connection. Then there is also F Lee Baily who is also suspected of dealings with CIA. OJ is a clear indication of this because that too was an experiment.

Question for Joe is? Has he ever dealt with the misfits excreted out of the "Secret Government"?
Or am I in need of some of your further deprogramming practices?

Whatcha...
Thank you and I would like to say some things in regards to this, but I'm headed to bed for the night, I'll check back in tommorrow. One thing though that I feel pretty strongly about is that I would not consider JZ a "former" drinker. Unless she has quit since July 2006.

Whatcha,
In regards to my "tenacity and strength" again I thank you BUT here's the whole story, 18+ years sober and not even considering drinking again... untill... the day I left the followup of my beginners. Much of what I heard the Ram say about drinking made sense to me and I figured after 18 years it did seem stupid to keep labeling myself as an "alcoholic" being at that point with almost 1/2 my life spend sober (close anyway!) Long story short... I now drink red wine.
I have for over a year since my 1st RSE experience. Its been interesting, and I am not sure how it will all end up for me. I was very proud for many years of my sobriety, my father drank himself to death. But my pride was not a great trait either (for me). I am not ashamed of drinking again and THAT is a relief AND I still can "see" the signs... as in what I mentioned about JZ.
I dont know if a former drinker can ever be "healed" I am not even sure if healing would apply in the traditional sense. I think many people USE stuff to get away from being responsible for changing their own lives into what they want, and I have the proclivity to USE alcohol (amongst other vices).
What I felt, very strongly, about JZ (and booze)fully crystalized in my mind at the "wine ceremony" at '06 Assay. I "participated" in this and my partner mostly did not, I had an ERIE to say the least, kind of cosmic experience where-by I saw the "Ram" (drunk, spitting, pucking on stage) as my dad AND my mom (who doesnt drink).
I have no doubt that this was JZ drunk on stage and I dont care what she calls herself. In fact if I were her Id be getting drunk ALOT at this point. How in Gods name is she EVER gonna pull outta this??? YEEE GADS!!! I wouldn't want her fate even WITH the "Im a Billionaire" status.
Jeckel and Hyde symdrome is what it's called in AA. With the "cover" of Ramtha, JZ can get away with murder, or suicide as the case may be.The fact that so few "students" recognize this just BLOWS ME AWAY!!
I actually met at least 4 others who like me had YEARS of sobriety behind them and threw it down the toilet for RSE. I AM NOT blaming RSE for my choice, I actually am very well aware I MADE A CHOICE. Also, I believe I am in good standing with my inner being regarding the whole "alcoholic" issue. I have a STRONG data-base of "recovery" behind me. Years of long term "self-comtemplation" which for me yielded huge RESULTS.
But, based on my last Rse "Event" during which JZ mentioned to us we should look at our childhood abuse issues (it was a JZ event,not the Ram), I feel JZ is approaching (perhaps) doing THAT herself??? Cool, thats great, and when she does she may see the bigger picture that her lies and alcohol abuse has created. I hope so, for her and everyone else involved.
At the end of Assay 06 JZ came on the speaker to say bye to us and she said (as Ive heard she has said many times) there would be NO MORE wine "ceremonies". The next Beginners, a few weeks later...GUESS WHAT HAPPENED????
Go Figure...

PS I see it may look like we/ve gotton "off topic", but perhaps not. As to WHY JZ would send "Spies" anywhere for any reason, I can say that when in my own "twisted" alcoholic perspective...spies, espionage, intrigue, under-cover agents, YOU NAME IT!! All become REAL possibilities.

If JZ did not have spies, she would have been out of business a long time ago. Those that you control, when out of your sight, not blindfolded or drinking, might realize they don't need JZ, for anythink. That they have their own power to lean on and grow from.

Put yourself in JZ's shoes, while on stage, in control of hundred's of people, the power she must have felt, but you smart guys could not see, she wanted it that way. wine,blindfold,rules,. I really want to know about the stone face she wears, and has for years. Could this be because a percentage of communication is facial expression and tone, and she had things she did not want to communicate? off thread, but if we looked into a mirror, and refused to move any facial muscles, then spoke, w/o moving the face, you would be amazed at how your voice will sound, very unfamiliar. Focus on the voice change, there is an important message here. thanks to all

As for why she would send spies - control. Plain and simple.

She must keep something new - a new carrot to dangle for the students at all times. Keep them coming back for the new morsel they can then nibble on and chase again when it gets jerked away.

So, she monitors "what's out there".

Students are told they are God and to go within to their own God for answers. They are told they shouldn't even ask a question because the answer is within them. Gods don't ask questions.

Then, they're told they cannot evolve further wihtout the guidance of a hierophant (Ramtha), and that they won't find anyone like him anywhere else on the plane. If they doubt it, go try.

Regarding spying in general, rumor has been for a while that she has that entire property bugged with cameras. She has admitted to watching students from her house, with high powered binoculars. That's sick.

She has spouted her opinion about how students are doing at their disciplines. Who is she ? Human. I thought only Ramtha was the hierophant who could have an opinion about a student's progress.

Anyway, a trip to spybusters.com will show anyone just how very simple it is to have your place bugged. She could easily hear/see all the students on the property if she wanted to. Even the "EXIT" signs in the arena could be bugged. We all know she can afford to buy this technology, also.

Round and about, it just comes back to the same thing - she needs/wants to sustain CONTROL over her FOLKIES ... such a condescending term.

Dance - thanks for sharing about your past with alcohol/family issues. My hubby's side of the family has had those issues to contend with, too. I don't know how you can stand the taste of wine ! LOL BLECH.
I dreaded it all. My first wine ceremony ... oh, my goodness, was I sick. I thought my head would blow up from pain, and if my stomach didn't come flying out of me for all the vomiting I did - it never will. It was a horrible experience. I don't drink so just one small glass of that nasty tasting stuff and I'm gone.

Saying there will be no more wine ceremonies, and the having more, is to be expected. Don't believe anything s/he tells you. There is no honor in the words they speak.

JZ Knight had video cameras installed in the main arena during the height of the wine ceremonies as a “security measure” to catch a student apparently spiking the wine of other students with MDMA “ecstasy”. Makes you wonder why the all seeing "Ramtha" did'nt just point the culprit out?

Incidentally MDMA was also being touted at the time as David Hudson’s “white powder Gold”

Perhaps… a reader attending a future RSE event will confirm if those cameras are still visible?

Kodak moment anyone?

Chuckle..

David

from wolfman: "Question for Joe is? Has he ever dealt with the misfits excreted out of the "Secret Government"?
Or am I in need of some of your further deprogramming practices? "

Yes, I have dealth with them. I have an extensive file from the past 25 years--kept maybe a dozen for reference. My take is that people looking for "deprogramming" from "secret gov" programs like MKUltra are 1. Clueless as to what mind control and deprogramming entail, and 2. Appear to be mentally ill or unstable (schizophrenia, paranoia, overvalued beliefs, mania, fantasy proneness). I can't do anything for them unless they learn to appreciate real evidence and not just rely on memory (false memory syndrome)and symptoms. I interview people in the intake area of my psych hospital at their worst: Government chips in their skulls, microwaves causing their voices, mind control by some extra-corporeal agency.....amazing how a couple of days of haldol or risperdal can get rid of the chip, block the microwaves, and stop telepathic mind control! But not in every case. Some of the patients live with fixed delusions no matter what.
I can offer a book list and a couple of reviews that may help you understand where I am coming from.
for starters, try
Conspiracies, Coverups and Crimes: Political Manipulation and Mind Control in America by Jonathan Vankin
and
The Search for the Manchurian Candidate: The CIA and Mind Control by John Marks.
They are not definitive, but the research is mostly reliable and non-tabloidish.

Joe

---to continue my last post, I looked back at the books I mentioned above just to refresh. The cia/gov agents really screwed up during the apex of the "mind control" experiments, ostensibly ended after congressional hearings in 1963 (MKULTRA for ex). Some new programs continued for a decade or so. The authors expose the weakness of the premises for creating effective deployable agents through "brainwashing", hypnosis and/or drugs.

Ancient tried and true military training techniques and simple "religious conversion" account for better methods.

Here's a quote from one of the insiders,former MKULTRA consultant Martin Orne: "We are sufficiently ineffective so that our findings can be published." (Marks, 189)

Dozens of unfortunate souls suffered from the cia experiments, some going chronically crazy and others becoming temporarily confused and paranoid. Russian, German and Chinese mind control experiments were even worse, according to Marks.

The complete story may never be known as much of the info from those years is not yet declassified or has been destroyed. It can be scary to think of how these agents got caught up in their own beliefs that such mind control was ever possible. That was what initiated the damage, the "true belief syndrome" in the face of conflicting evidence. It was cult behavior in action government style.

Joe

Thanks Joe for what you know.

The most long lasting and effective mind control techniques involve sexual manipulation coupled with near loss of life thru physical beating and this is done primarily with younger boys around puberty. This is straight out of a group called the OTO and the 11th degree initiation.

There is evidence linking the OTO back to the Vatican with side trips into Free Masonery and the Mormons.

Sex Magick is very very real and powerful with regards to forcing open more areas of the brain.

Then there was/is the practice of "brain scaring" at birth. Also very real for the same purpose.

Dr Ewen Camerons material is a good link into all this.

So is a darn good book called "The Ultiminate Evil" by Maury Terry about the Son of Sam murders in NY.

Further up this thread a poster writes, "One woman who was very thin Ramtha slugged in the belly and slapped her face over and over and over in audience. Right in front of her hubby."

I know this woman and was present at the Follow-up where Ramtha approached her. She was sitting with her boyfriend who at the time worked as a translator for RSE. They were sitting on chairs against the wall under the initiate star. She is a very sweet, sensitive person who at the time stuggled with the eating disorder, bulimia. People with bulimia gorge on food and then throw it up in an effort to stay thin. The boyfriend believed that she had the bulimia under control (with medication) however Ramtha said that it was not true and that she should not mislead her boyfriend. I was dismayed to see Ramtha make contact with her face in the same way a person might try to sober up a drunk. He seemed to be trying to get her attention, nonetheless, any physical contact of a "battery" nature is unacceptable. However, I did not see Ramtha make contact with any part of her body other than her face.

Thanks for verifying that story. I hardly know the woman; we were partners once, that's it. She was a very sweet woman, yes. I understand that you did not see Ramtha make contact with her stomach area, but I did (as did the video camera), and I would estimate that approximately 4 times, maybe even more, he hit her in the belly. You nailed it; the bottom line is, it was "battery".

And every one of us who sat there, watched it, and did or said nothing to stop it, is guilty. I only mention that because it points out how even when we don't like what we see/hear, put in a certain environment, it's amazing what people will tolerate.

Even scary.

“There comes a time when silence is betrayal" ..

Martin Luther King.

We have reached that RSE crossroad.

David

I was there, right next to the couple. and i KNOW the husband presonally.
what whatchamacallit said and one other person, now it is has benn 20 minutes, It just wreaks of abuse.
Plain and simple.

I know someone who defied Ramtha in the arena. She objected to something he was saying about a couple's personal relationship. She considered what Ramtha was stating was abusive to the lady of the couple.

This looks quite probable from all of the other "in depth" exposures of the deepest, darkest secrets....

Can the "educator" get out of the student's bedrooms and their underclothing? If this is the reality AFTER ascension does anyone want to be first in line to go there?

I think the above was at a wine ceremony event and the liquor encouraged this person to be more expressive than usual.

She was removed from the arena.

It really needs NUMBERS to start thinking rationally, seeing through the illusions and speaking up.

Yes, Christel !
It would also take numbers to stand up and reclaim their own power, IN the arena, so that there would be too many red 'GUARDS', to toss them all out for daring not to be a compliant, cooperative, docile sheep.

That's such an irony; they think they are so openminded and leading edge on all sorts of things. But, they're not. They're so indoctrinated into the "social consciousness of RSE's Groupthink" that many of them have lost their critical thinking ability. Have to shut that doubting mind up, because they're taught that it's their necromancer.

Gives a new meaning to "WAKE UP".