I am a current student signed up for the upcoming Blue College yet I am deeply concerned about some things about the school and I am looking for some information.

I would like to think I am a smart person who is wise enough to not be duped into a scam but lately I have been questioning the teachings and decided to go on the net and search for information that specifically contradited or invalidated the school or exposed some hidden or squelched info that we were kept apart fom. To my surprise, there seemed very little documeneted and verifiable evidence to not only debunk RSE and Ram but neither did anything support or validate him or his teachings either except from biased associates.

There are a few articles about scientists or scholars who quite literally say that Rams science is flawed in many ways including some of the people who appeared in The Bleep movies. Then the arguement would say that we thought the world was flat for centuries till THAT was proven wrong. History seems to give "reference" to Ram and his existence but loosely at best and Atlantis and Lemuria have yet to be shown to have ever existed. Their are questionable pasts on JZ, Miceal Ledwith, Joe Dispenza and a host of other front runners current and past in the organization but dig deeper into anyones life, and follies can be found. Jeff Knight could have easily been a disgruntled x-husband looking for more cash to explain his dissent but no where did I read he actively debunked JZ's claim of channeling Ramtha. He just seemed to feel the Rams teachings influenced him to "give in" .

A lot of the claims I am reading here about Grandma and feats of manifestations and any modicom of success in this school based on its teachings have come from 3rd parties. People who knew someone who new a girl that dated JZ's son, ect. The same could be said in reverse about the falsity of claims as well. They dont seem to be first hand witness. One person claims to have manifested 5 quarters in their hand with a witness but does not go into any detail and provide witness names or dates or anything. Very questionable. Id be screaming like a little girl forever if that happened to me.

I have serious questions about the validity of what I am actively participating in. I question the validity of Ram directly. I question the holes that seem to be appearing more often in the teachings that dont seem to be based on any credible evidence of success. I witnessed a man read 52 cards in a row on stage from the back but no one was asked to inspect the cards first. I have read the medical reports from JZ about her before and after states of health and claimed healing but I have had Dr's flub records for me to get into football or flub ones to get steroids when I was a kid.

I know the cliche that if you seek to find fault, there it will be. I know, I know. I am deeply concerned here. I have contemplated moving to Yelm to get closer to the teachings as there is a lot of truth in those words but there is a lot that also does not make sense. Lately I am very confused and depressed and feel a lot of guilt about either doing or not doing the work and diciplines and am not seeing any hard evidence to show me that these teachings are the ultimate truth cming from a realized master and the fear of doubting him and questioning him is leading me to this forum.

WHY DOES THE RAM NOT COME OUT ON STAGE AND MANIFEST A GOAT OR SOMETHING?
WHY DOES HE NOT GO INTO THE AUDIENCE AND PICK OUT A LONG TIME STUDENT THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW PERSONALLY AND CURE THEM OF THEIR AILMENT?

Now the arguement for this is "look what they did to Jesus" and all the screwed up interpretations of his teachings as a result of that. He healed the blind and they killed him. Well if Ram wants to help us out of the ditch and teach us the way and path to mastery, why does he not throw us a bone and show us something to the level of our acceptance which is show us something in plain sight with no room for doubt that what he claims he is is real? He is here to help us cause he loves us but he helps us on the rules of human faith and we just dont seem to get past cause we are doubting and non-trusting creatures hence we live in a ditch (so he says). But love us enough to work at our level of acceptance. Build it from there by showing us over and over there is more to this. He should have no fear of death and he should be able to protect JZ and the school from any fundamentalist who decides he is the devil and want to do harm. For crying out loud, he claims to have the power to turn the moon into gold!!!

Has anyone ever witnessed any incredible feats or healings in their life? Has anyone personally seen fraud or active deceit personally? Can anyone validate anything besides airy 3rd party claims either for or against Ram and his teachings? Can anyone expose JZ as a fraud? Has anyone else besides Jeff Knight (dead) JZ her kids and her boyfriend seen the Ram in his true form as he claims? Where are these people?

If I saw any of this phenomina (sp) or witnessed any personal healing or manifestation in my life, I would be the first to buy a house across the street from the ranch and take all my money and dump it into a TV station and spread the word without any regard for safety and persecution from the church or people. Id scream 24/7 about this truth till i went horse and I would be the best promoter of RSE.

Please help me here!! Show me the money!! If I fail after that and die, i always have the light review and demand I get back here and resurrect my body!! But for now, bring me the proof of validity or falsehood. This middle ground is sucking the life out of me.

Hi Truth-seeker, I understand your feelings & thoughts very well, even though it is from my own perspective. I don't know if anything I can say is "absolute proof positive" of what you need to know, but I will share what I know from a friend's sharing & my own personal experiences. To start with, a friend I knew personally experienced what would be termed "physical abuse" by today's standards. She told me of sitting out in the field with the entire class & focusing for hours. At some point, Ram came out & picked up a bucket of water & dumped it over her head in anger. This is not 3rd hand information; this was her personal experience. She gave it to me directly. The other thing that started my belief wall crumbling was that 5 yrs. ago I had a nervous breakdown after leaving the school. My sister took me to a counselor after I asked for help. The counselor asked me (about RSE) if they used abuse there. When I had to answer "yes -- there was emotional & verbal abuse" is when the walls of belief in RSE started to crumble. I will do a "Dr. Phil" & ask, what part of abuse, criticism, yelling, & denigrating people is love? The answer is NONE of it. The fact of your questioning & demanding proof is an answer in itself. Don't ignore those signals as they are probably from your Soul telling you there's too much that doesn't add up. Love doesn't abuse people. Love doesn't blame people that everything is their fault. In a relationship, and this is a relationship, both beings are accountable for their participation. If no one is able to live & experience these fantastic realities on a daily basis & in all these years no one has been able to "graduate" as a master, then I question the teacher & the methods. As you said, you have heard 3rd & 4th parties hearsay, but no one has actually been able to stand up & say they personally were healed at that school of some horrible disease. That in itself is an answer. When the teacher (& the channel) are saying this is what you must do to be a master, then turn around & do the opposite themselves, that is an answer. If someone is truly enlightened, they "walk their talk". What I have seen is "do what I say but not as I do". What part of cursing & humiliating people in front of a thousand other students is loving as a loving master/teacher? I think that speaks for itself. Listen to your Soul. I didn't listen to it; it wanted me to leave, but I didn't listen. That's when my life took a serious downward turn & fell apart. I strongly urge you to listen to the still small voice of feeling from the Soul, not the fear/guilt/feelings from the personality programs. Your Soul speaks & knows unconditional love as that is its essence. Does your Soul feel unconditional love from an abusive teacher? I give statements from other people a very simple test. I take that thoughtform & hold it to my 4th seal-chakra. I immediately can feel the intent of the thought, the true intent. The Soul doesn't lie; it only knows what is, & you will get the feeling of the statement. Take any thought from Ram that you remember & give it that test. That is the test of truth. When we had learned the discipline of the Pagan Dance yrs. ago, I used this a lot in my own home & time. I actually became & experienced what it was like to be so many parts of nature. One day, I had the realization that if I could do that with nature, then I could do that with another sentient being as well. I "merged" my being with Ramtha. I got almost no feeling except for a slight squeeze without any feeling attached to it. I now understand that it wasn't a failure on MY part to match frequency, this is just what was really there. I have had some personal experiences since then with merging my being with other sentient beings from Arcturus & Andromeda. The feelings were absolutely exquisite! There was NO question of the feeling of love & caring from these beings. It was very obvious from the way my Soul was radiating this through me. I don't know if this is of any help to you, but my compassion is with you. If you need to communicate on a more personal level, you may email me at the email listed here on this site: angeliquenewswoman@hotmail.com May you find peace & my blessings of light & love to you. M.

Truth-Seeker

The truth will set you free.

What if finding your truth was not like you envision it to be like?

What would you do?
What would you feel like?
Would you feel betrayed?
And who would you blame for the betrayal?

These things are what you will experience at RSE.

But Hey! Sounds to me like your a ballplayer at heart.

Think you can play ball on rigged field?

Its like learning how to hit Mario Rivera with a pencil for a bat.

Still want to play ball?

Truth-seeker,

First of all let me start by saying I admire the courage in your post and welcome you to this discussion. Perhaps when the "point counter point addition to the site is finished there will be ample room to debate the "authenticity of ramtha/jz/rse.

All the questions you raise are valid and I encorage you to keep asking. sometimes silence speaks volumes. You have no need to feel guilt for inquiring. Indeed, you are attempting to make the unknown known!!

I will give you one example of an exchange I have had with the school and staff.

I was at an introductory (free) seminar in Los Angeles. On hand were Greg Simmons, Linda Evans, Audrey, Miceal, and Joe.

At this intro there were claims made and the veracity of them attested to by all of the people previously mentioned. They specifically said they had medical documentation to back up all of their claims.

This being a group of people already predisposede to the existance of the big guy/gal or entities of the like no one ever asked to "see the beef" so to say as you have in your post.

Inquiring minds want to know though, so I specifically asked both Dr. Joe and Greg if I had understood them correctly about the medical documentation to back up all of their claims.

They both hurridly and emphaticly proclaimed that yes indeed this was a fact.

I asked Greg if it might be possible for me to review the medical documentation. He assured me it would be no problem since the school held the records. and to contact him.

This started a series of emails requesting the material.

The claims that had been made were:

A student had grown new permenant teeth where the old ones had fallen out.

A student healed a broken arm in 6 hours.

A student had healed themselves from cancer.


The cancer cure is not impossible to believe, it is fairly well documented that somewhere between 3-5% of cancers spontaniously remiss. So, for there to be 3-5% of the population in RSE who have done so is not a feat which cannot be replicated elsewere.

The other two though are pretty incredible sounding and deserve a bit of scrutiny especially since there would necessarily be xray records at least.

Well, to make a long story a bit shorter, after 6 months, it became evident that there were no medical records to back up either of the incidents mentioned.

While they sputtered and made tons of excuses. There was no apology or admiting that they had been less then honest about the truth of the matter. They attempted to make my request sound unimportant and that I was at fault for asking them to be accountable for what they said. (how does that sound for integrity??)

Plain and simple, they lied. While I can't crawl in their heads for the reason they lied, I can make an educated guess. They knew they were "preaching to the chior" so to speak and gambled that no one would call their bluff.

The audience was middle age or more on the average. There were several disabled and obviously seriously ill people in the room at the time.

one of the more unfortunate parts of what I belived to be the scam of rse is the selling of false hope to those most in need of help. Bamboozeling them,putting them in fear, and then shaking them down for $'s


The human body is ALREADY a most incredible thing. It does repair itself constantly, without us thinking about it at all, no focus, no school,no nothing.

Broken bones mend. Lacerated skin knits together in a marvelous orchestra of mini surgeons,nurses,etc.

After all "...in the light of all eternity..." does it matter if our cut that now heals in 3 days only took one day??? How long would it then be if we got used to it being 1 day that we would then want it to be in an hour? and then instant tanious?? I hope you get where I am going with this....

I have heard of the medical reports and documentation on Jz's illness which she claims to have cured but I have not seen any. If you have acess to them or know how I might obtain them for examination I would appreciate the heads up.

Truth seeker,

Questioning,doubt, seeking proof and accountability when someone makes an extrodinary claim are indeed what making the unknown known is all about so please, feel free to do so.

P.S.

"I would like to think I am a smart person who is wise enough to not be duped into a scam but lately I have been questioning the teachings and decided to go on the net and search for information that specifically contradited or invalidated the school or exposed some hidden or squelched info that we were kept apart fom. To my surprise, there seemed very little documeneted and verifiable evidence to not only debunk RSE and Ram but neither did anything support or validate him or his teachings either except from biased associates."


One of the general publics misconceptions of people who "get duped" into groups, or belief systems such as rse is that they must be stupid. The opposite it actually true. In most cases, the group attracts and directly markets to those who already are willing to think outside "the box". Those who already have made a commitment to become as much of thier full potential as possible. What happens though is that once recruited, the group (leaders) directs that commitment to fulfil thier agenda which can range from a satisfaction of power and control to the ammasing of a great fortune (read "fabulous wealth")
or all of them together. The key point is though that they have moved one from ones own agenda to fulfilling theirs while making the subject feel as if they (in this case rse) has no agenda but to have them become Gods.
What about all the $'s?????? does anyone really think that one day they might find JZ sitting in a numbered box in a tent in the freezing cold at one of their events?????

I was healed of a terrible respiratory illness. I attribute it to the application of the heaing techniques taught are RSE. I do not attribute it to JZ or Ramtha.

Now "Current Student" watch the responses to this post and you will see why you will not get any unbiased information on this website just as you will not get any unbiased information from the administration of RSE. Both have there agendas. Judging from your more balanced post I think you are already aware of the spinning and exaggeration that both RSE and some EMF posters/ex-ramtha students are capable of.

Truth Seeker said, "This middle ground is sucking the life out of me."
Let's apply critical thinking and logic to this situation. First of all, there is no middle ground. Something is either true or false. If something is not true, then it is false. Discriminate between what "Ramtha" says and what "Ramtha" does. Looking only at what "Ramtha" does, has "he" performed any miracles? If something is not true then it is false.

Part II:
Examine your own desire to believe in something that is not true. It is called the human condition and forms the basis of what is called religion. RSE is not a religion but plays the same game.

To: On the fence.

I understand about agendas. I also understand about the human condition. Good point. Everyone has one and when we are on a platform, what supports us IS are agenda.

If you claim to have had a healing from a respitory illness, why are you here posting on what is considered a Ramtha recovery and support forum? I would think you wouldnt even be attracted to this site. I would be shouting from the roof tops and proclaiming TRUTH has been found. Ok Ok, you may say that the "meek shall inherit the earth" and its not necessary to shout but if a school of wisdom is claiming to be able to teach its students to do outrageous things, show me someone after 25 years who can do something outrageous consistently. Show the people that by using their doubt as a tool of coversion, transcend it with proof and then they can not say your full of crap.

The school needs a lot of money to keep open. A steady flow of students is a must in order to keep the doors open. If Ram can manifest and change timelines and the such, and his love for us is so great that he wants to help JZ and the rest of us out of the ditch, why does he not just manifest awesome miracles as Jesus did and be done with the :doubt" within the human mind. What better marketing can there be but the truth!!!! What better marketing can there be but an open door policy for scritiny and validation till we "mules" get it. That is what love would do. If it wants to raise our awareness, move through our doubts, show us consistently untill we get it. Love should be forever in its patience. Love should provide whatever means necessary to help raise our awareness.

If you did heal yourself than I am happy for you and would love to meet you and see your proof. I mean proof. Not something that went away with meds and time and Dr,s care, I mean a freaking healing. Give me the proof and i will join your joy with all my heart and soul. If you cant provide it then I will ask you what is your agenda here?

Hi on the fence,

Nice handle you have picked for yourself, especially given the negative impact of "being on the fence has in the school. I often was told I was a "fence sitter" by some students. I always reminded them that from that vantage point it allowed me to make more informed choices since I could see what was going on around me.

Quote OTF
"I was healed of a terrible respiratory illness. I attribute it to the application of the heaing techniques taught are RSE. I do not attribute it to JZ or Ramtha."

First of all I am happy that you feel yourself to be healed. I also hear that you attribute it to the applications of the healing techniques taught by RSE.
I am wondering if you had thought about your healing resulting from any other sources or perhaps potential combination of sources?? If so, I would be interested on hearing why the alternatives were set aside as having no result.

As far as getting an unbiased opinion here, I would not think you will find many on either side of the fence. For myself, I am certainly not unbiased. I think JZ has a powerful and effective scam going on. Yet I am not wearing blinders due to my bias. My mind is open to evidence and I look for a preponderence of evidence not neccesarily "Absolute proof".

Truth seeker,

RE: "This middle ground is sucking the life out of me"

For myself that is a telling statement.

Life is full of ambiguities, one may ponder them and never come to a definitive answer at the moment one wants. Organizations such as rse and rse in particular make use of the human nature of not being comfortable with ambiguities.

On of the ways they do this is by instilling a doctrine of to not doubt. "be as a child", telling one that they can "know" nothing without first experiencing it for themselves.

While once one is released from having to think about inconsistancies,prior mindsets, and multiple possibilities (read unlimited thinking). It can lead to an extrodinary feeling of liberation.

In the case of rse the instilling of this doctrine or mindset is no different in producing this feeling other then the group dynamic which which helps to make it all the more powerful.

The question then becomes (once one is in this vacume without doubt) what is to take its place???

In rse it becomes replace with black and white thinking. Ones thinking becomes moulded more and more to not be able to accept and consider ambiguous, ambivilent thought.

All the time that one is being told they are learning things which are "Unlimited" they are being trained, and quietly(sometimes not so quietly) moved towards a mindset which is condusive to fulfilling the schools/JZ's agenda. All this indeed limiting. Don't think so??? Have a look at the documents one is expected to sign in order to participate in these "unlimited teachings". Have a look at the fact of mandatory events and the consequences of not attending. Does that make one feel unlimited??? Have a look at the gate, guards, security etc. Are they there to limit you???

IMHO, these things are there for a purpose. The main pupose is to help control ones actions and thoughts. To keep one from holding rse/JZ/ramtha accountable for their actions. While personal responsibility, integrity, unlimited possibilities are all buzzwords and catch phrases, their meaning gets lost and is not displayed by those in the positions of power in rse.

Truth Seeker, re: your post on 2-7-07 to On The Fence.

You have no right to demand On the Fence, to prove their healing to you or anyone. I am a healer, and with your attitude, I must say, I would not want to help you heal. FYI! my exp. your attitude will keep you from the truth. I will share this with you, believing you are worthy to heal, is 90% of every healing. As for your proof seeking, the proof changes, with each perception, so chase the wind if you like. Please don't take this to heart, for it is my perception.

What a wonderful thread! So many new voices, its grand to read. Thank you all!!

Farm Girl... Kay,

Thank you for your post but...
You are using loaded language to suggest that "TruthSeeker" has no rights to demand from "On the Fence" the proof of their healing….
There was no such demand as you put it.
But.. even if there was,
It would have been appropriate …Given the topic thread by TRUTH-Seeker re… “Current Student seeks Proof”
It is also my opinion that...
I do have the right to ask.. and even to demand “proof” when I am told by RSE members of some miraculous or healing power attribted to "Ramtha" JZ Knight, The Teachings" or RSE Inc.

Let’s not be sidetracked from this is very important thread….

David

Truthseeker your posts are welcome. I do not know if you were present in the early years of RSE. This letter I sent to the Nisqually Valley News some time ago I consider is proof that the early teacheings of Love Being Born in the Fourth Seal have not bee accomplished by anyone up to this point in the teachings.

Likewise Ramtha stated that worthiness exists when one becomes free of one's past. Thus this obviously occurs at the same time that the fourth seal can be demonstrated. Prior to this worthiness does not exist AS TAUGHT BY RAMTHA.

It is quite obvious according to this that many unworthy people not involved in the teachings heal and some of those miraculously. If RSE puts forth claims of medical evidence to substantiate their claims then they should be able to provide the evidence.

For myself, I have had recent ultrasound scans and I have medical evidence that a few conditions I had years ago (also found with ultrasound scans) did not change one bit from my participation in RSE in 2005.
I have spent many years focussing and doing diciplines for several hours per day.

The following is my letter to the editor.


Not one student of RSE or the administration can prove Ramtha’s teaching.



Dear Editor/Readers,
There is always a proliferation of defense of Ramtha’s School of Enlightenment every time there is any objection against it. In actual fact there is not one student of RSE, past or present can prove the education given at RSE after 18 years of its operation. Likewise the staff and JZ Knight cannot prove it either.

There is almost no consistency of any student to accomplish anything taught and many have been students for greater than 15 years.

Putting forward the benefits of RSE as greater commerce in the Yelm area or the important workplace occupations, or accomplishments, of some of the students is irrational.

An educational institution can be evaluated by the number of students who accomplish a certain level, as presented by the teacher, with consistency. That is what the customers have paid for. In this case a very high price.

The Preliminary Level of accomplishment put forward by “Ramtha” (put simply for those uninvolved) was to become an honest person, free of emotional, ulterior motives for one’s actions; that emotions such as anger, guilt and hatred all have an ulterior motive of controlling other people.
“Ramtha” stated that prior to puberty the thymus gland in the body is large and the energy in the body is sitting in the chest area. At puberty the energy descends and the thymus gland shrinks to the size of a pea. The person also adopts the attitude of their gender.

When a student has transcended all of these emotions the energy rises again. The person becomes an individual adopting an attitude of neither gender. It is described similar to the kundalini of yogic tradition. The thymus gland swells and the body regenerates and becomes youthful again.
Quite obviously a birth certificate, an ID and witnessing the body of a student can prove this teaching.

No one that has been involved can prove this. Not one graduate at the base level since the school’s inception. Words mean nothing unless they can be validated.

Christel Ricke.

Journey through Ramthaland, Great to have you posting on this site.

Dear Girl,

If you are a healer as you claim and are providing a service, why would you take the position of denial of service if someone is coming to you for your help if their "attitude" is not one of your liking?

I am 100% committed to being healed and led to enlightenment. I seek the councel of person or claimed entities that state their abilities and knowlede by DEMONSTRATION rather than open ended loophole filled teachings and claims. If I go to a Dr., I would hope they provide a certificate of competency if asked. If not, I walk. A healer or master would and should respect the same request.

If I ask as a humble student/patient, I should receive. If my doubt makes me a flawed student that does not qualify me for further teaching, I begin to look at the reasons for a teacher to be in the position and ask if I qualify. Ramtha has stated he is here because he loves us and was once one of us so he should be aware of the human condition of doubt and fear. He claims to want to help us but in his way. Fine. This is Ramthas model but if you truly love us and are here to help us, then why not work at our level of acceptance with the utmost patience of a master. Give us the info we think we need to get through the doubt and then if we fail to realize and experience the truth, the fault of falling short lies on us.

If I walked into your office and your dismissal of me as a patient was explained as a bad attitude or one that does not fit your idea of what a patient should support, instead, why wouldnt you work with them in teaching them the benefit of a different perception? Isnt healing whether mentally or physically a joining of mind? An equality. Not a heirarchy of judgement.

Hi Current Student. I applaud you for your questions. They remind me of the wise child who was the only one to say the emperor had no clothes!

You asked why Ramtha doesn't do any demonstrations of healing. Ever since I left RSE a long time ago, I've watched a good friend of mine keep attending, who has hands with fingers that are frozen into twisted, bent-back positions. Over some 15 years that I've known her while she attended RSE and participated in healing sessions with groups of RSE students, her hands have only gotten worse. Her immune system is so weak that she has gone for months with infections that refused to heal. Now if Ram were to heal her hands in front of everyone at an event, that would be a dramatic, instant healing that nobody could doubt. But over those 15 years, I have seen no improvement in her health, finances (barely hanging on) or living situation (no electricity, no indoor plumbing).

If you do move to Yelm and keep your eyes open, you will meet many long-time students who live in little campers, sheds, and even tents on property owned by others. Many RSE students have lived for years and years without running water, power, their own bathroom, etc. A Thurston County sheriff once told me that local law enforcement is well aware that multitudes of people are living long-term like this out in the boonies around the South Sound area, and that this is against all kinds of regulations. He said the county looks the other away whenever possible. They'd have a lot of homeless people on their hands if they didn't.

I've observed RSE students living in the Yelm area over nearly 2 decades. To be fair, many of them wouldn't put much money into outward shows of abundance, because their money goes toward RSE events and things like stored food and emergency supplies. There are RSE students who live in little communities and who will be well equipped to help one another get through earthquakes and other disasters.

But over the years I've never noticed any pattern of RSE students displaying better health or more financial abundance than the rest of the population. They get sick, they need to be hospitalized, and they die of the same things as other people do--and that includes RSE staff members. The majority still have to work for a living--the Yelm area hasn't had any more lottery winners than any other area--and a lot of the people I know exist by doing home health care, housesitting, housecleaning, manual labor, gardening, animal care, etc. Many have lost huge sums of money over the years to scams, and many have waited for years, expecting their ship to come in via Omega, PIP, the NESARA myth, and other get-rich-quick systems that have never paid off except to the people who either started them or were the first to bring them to Yelm.

Whatever you decide, I suggest you do what Ramtha used to teach--look at things "evenly" and use your "common-sense reasoning." There are a lot of nice things about living here, but based on results, the reputed special abilities of long-time RSE students are more hype than reality.

Dear Truth Seeker,

My curt words, re: your post, had nothing to do with you, and everything to do with me. I would like to try and explain. As a healer, with pure intent, I should not have reacted to your post, with frustration. My hope for all spiritual beings, having a human experience, is heaven on earth. The truth, I did not mean it when i said, I would not work with someone, with your attitude. Because for me to see that attitude, I must own it. So I am working on my flaws, so I can be a healer with pure intent. Happy trails, in your travels.

Dear Farm Girl,

There are some fantastic people in and out of RSE and I get the feeling you are one of them. It takes a lot of humility to stand up and say what you did and I completely respect and honor your words. We may not agree on everything and words (especially typed) can be mis-read or the intention and meaning lost. I have done this many times and like you said, have owned some feelings and seen things where they were not intended to be as a reflection of my inner condition. We are all growing and learning. Thanks.

I am a "current" blue college student & have decided along with one other BC student & 2 Primary Group students to NOT return to RSE.
For me, it came down to some serious questions regarding Ramtha's behavior & how the school is run.

1. Being told last year that Blue College 2007 will involve "secret information" & no student is permitted to share or speak about the teachings.
This is ridiculous. If the teachings are true, why would a "God" teacher demand silence? This smacks of control & to me very cult-like. Never have understood why any student's wisdom would not be celebrated.

2. Witnessing Ramtha push a student last summer.

3. Witnessing a very drunken Ramtha use filthy, abusive language in front of children. Not that this excuses the behavior in front of adults either. To demean in a sexual way the men in the audience in front of their children is flat out abuse. And child abuse is EVERYBODY's business.

4. A school that allows little or no questions. I, too, asked for proof of the third set of teeth that we were told were manifested by an RSE student. None was given. Even simple questions asked about the technique used in discliplines was always answered with "just do it".

5. The persistent fear based teachings, yet we are all creating our reality. The constant ramblings regarding how "hot & attractive his channel is" yet women are too involved with appearance, how she was Joan of Arc in a previous life, how Ramtha was Jesus' personal teacher...yet hearing him shout profanities to his audience to "F" Jesus.

6. To personally witness him single out a student & praise a specific healing that occured, yet when I asked the student about it, he told me it never happened & he was not sure why Ramtha was speaking to him.

7. To be involved with a school that involves channeling, yet being told that there are no other channels & all information available outside of RSE, even something as main stream as the current "The Secret" was ripped off from Ramtha. Ridiculous & cult-like to me in that the students are being manipulated to think that they can only obtain enlightenment with this group.

I think this forum is important.

RE: pathwinder
WONDERFUL post!!! Seems you've come thru the labyrinth and out into the sunshine! I started attending RSE in 2005, and left in 2006 for many of the same reasons. There is SO MUCH wonderful information and knowledge out THERE now, and its coming from everywhere! To be told that RSE is the "only" ANYTHING is a total crock.Especially to be told this by a spitting drunk on stage...

I notice this weekend at the Beginners theres a totally FREE day for all current students who'd like to attend, I haven't seen much FREE anything at RSE (this includes free thought), wonder what's going on there???

Thanks for a great reply. Your story of a student singled out by Ram for a healing success that never occured is quite alarming.

1. Being told last year that Blue College 2007 will involve "secret information" & no student is permitted to share or speak about the teachings.
This is ridiculous. If the teachings are true, why would a "God" teacher demand silence? This smacks of control & to me very cult-like. Never have understood why any student's wisdom would not be celebrated.


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You are so right. This attitude that you are so special. It creates seperation and elite-ism.

In the beginning, the Ram saidhe wanted to tell everyone they were God, because he wanted everyone to wake up and know.

Today, only if you have the money to buy wisdom, are you allowed to know wisdom.

Big duality

To address DanceTheWinds question….
“Wonder what's going on there???

"All current students have
been invited to join the beginning group for a day of disciplines
and teachings this Saturday, February 10th."

JZ Knight, including some staff members... know very well how to impress and befuddle the beginners with the “RSE hurrah crowd” and the show and tell "miracle members".
I remember at my beginners event in 1989, being surrounded by professional people, Doctors, Artists, Priests, Etc..all in awe of “Ramtha” and the “Teachings” this played a major roll in my letting my guard down and surrendering critical thinking.
The syndrome of the “Tyranny of the Majority”...also comes into play here..
Yielding Rather than Participating
I encourage all current students to attend this event…
To warn the beginners about the RSE snare they have unwittingly entered.

(Moderator please delete other copies if this post gets duplicated)



Welcome Pathwinder,

Refreshing post! Disturbing yet corroborated examples of the rse/JZ/ramtha "experience". I have often wondered about JZ's past abuse. It has been pointed out that abuse can be generational.Could it be that the big guy is her manifestation of a protector as well as an abuser???

Yet it is the control, emotional manipulation and stage show trickery that go a long way to create an enviornment for abuse to thrive.

The hucksters trick to single someone out for their own agenda is age old. Not only old but virtually bullet proof. If they get found out, they will just say "Well, he may not have been aware enough to know that he was sick...." but an all knowing ramtha does.....

JZ's background was in marketing and was sucessful at that.

She read up on arabian horses before she met x- husband Jeff Knight to become "enlightened"

Think she doesn't read up in other places in order to have a step up??

Yes, about the channeling, I have always wondered about if there are entities out there for everyone who has ever died where do they all live?? is ramthas universe supposed to be the Beverly Hills of an infinite universe??

When I start to ask these questions I begin to say "why hasn't everybody had visits from some entity?" "Why does it seem that one always needs a middle man/woman to communicate with all those other souls?" Why does it seem like virtually anyone who can communicate with them charges hefty fees and yet is able to behave like a spoiled brat and not be held accountable for it?"

Teachers who push, verbaly abuse, get drunk so as to loss control, uses armed guards to keep the students on campus would not be tolerated for a nano second anywhere.

You have brought up to date what many always brush off as happening in the past.

Thank you Pathwinder

P.S. to my previous post…

Perhaps it is best never to advise someone to attend an RSE event for any reason, however… If there is a brave Soul amongst us that is willing to stand up in the arena and Speak out…Then I salute you for your moral courage…
I will pick you up by the gates..
Chuckle..
Back to the topic thread "Current Student seeks Proof"...
What will take place on Saturday will be a barrage of "proof" to convince the beginners that "Ramtha" is real and the teachings are verifiable, The atmosphere will be charged with a sense of spiritual camaraderie and… as “journeythroughramthaland” so excellently posted about the "RSE mystical manipulation" and how ramtha/jz inculcates the belief and feeling in one that supernatural powers reside in them.
Smoke and mirrors can be very convincing.

Re: David
In regards to Sat. That's what I figured, also it helps to give the local "current" set a FREE day if they can come in and help flesh out the empty seats.
The new 3-4 day beginners regimen (become REMARKABLE in 1/2 the time it used to take!) may be not pulling in the 'ol crowds, and aren't the seasoned "teachers" in Indonesia or Ethopia this week? I digress, time to go to the show, GREAT thread!!!
Yes, after 20+ YEARS some proof would probably be a REAL GOOD IDEA.

Audrey Wolfe was observed by many to be expert at disciplines that were the basis of fomulating the material world.

I watched a demonstration where she found her card in front of 1000 plus people with all of the cards on the field. It was also stated at Assay 6 that Audrey teleported. Michel Ledwith stated that he observed her location before and after the incident. Audrey also got the bull's eye in archery.

Dr. Joe in the early 90's frequently got to the void in the tank. He was on stage many times.
Both have been long term students that have attended most events from the very beginning.

Holding one's focus to overcome the obstacles to that degree is supposed to make someone adept at creating their life and bringing it into being.

Obviously both of them have the ability to CREATE an extroadinary life and yet it is quite apparent that is has not come into being. On was shamed and humilated in front of many and the other threatened with a lawsuit. Both have spent an enourmous amount of hours bringing in the cash for RSE. Ramtha stated at an event I attended that at least two of his teachers were unpaid. I do not know if either of them were paid for their efforts or not.

It is a rotten way to treat long term employees who have benefitted the organization.

Another elderly student called Edith (I cannot remember her surname....she lived next to the Ranch) was also very adept at finding her card. RSE was her whole life. She was in her 70's in the early 90's. She practiced her disciplines daily. She practiced her fieldwork at someone's home and found her card regularly on the field at events. She was a student from the early days. She left the Yelm are some years ago to be back with her family in Florida. I understand she died. She was the most adept elderly student (older than grandmother).

Edith for all of her massive effort at her age gets to die just like "unconscious" humans.

If these three people who are the most adept at accomplishment cannot create a fabulous reality in their lives then it could be concluded that NO ONE CAN.

>>>>The new 3-4 day beginners regimen (become REMARKABLE in 1/2 the time it used to take!)

hmmm....lost that post. will try again...

my point was that the cost went down only 25%, but the time given in teachings went down 50%. sounds like a raise, to me !

i'm confused (insert humor) here.
why is it that in over 20 - 25 years of teachings, whereby not one person has become a god-realized being in the flesh, from the teachings there, would they CUT BACK ON the amount of time you are there being taught ? would one think "summer school" extra sessions would be in order ?

the whole thing is just one red flag after another.
it's filled with inconsistencies and discrepancies.

i can share two stories that i heard. i don't recall this info directly, but a friend shared it with me.

1) ramtha was yelling at a man to stand up, and then he described something about him. it was the wrong student he told to stand up.

2) i have also heard the story mentioned already whereby alleged healings did not happen, and the student, when questioned about what ramtha was talking about - said that they didn't know what ramtha was even saying to them as they had no experience with the conditions ramtha was referring to! in one case it was a surgery that a man never had ! ramtha was saying "i healed you. i healed your heart when you had surgery. i saved you."

3) another incident that was the same had to do with another man's eyesight and suicidal thoughts. when a friend asked him about it, he said that he didn't know what ramtha was talking about with regard to the issue.

i caution that as i said, i did NOT witness these things myself. i did hear from from someone who was there. i did hear ramtha say some of these things, as i was in some of the audiences for that, but i was not present when the students were asked privately to verify or deny the validity of what was said.

one more thing i heard was with regard to the assay of 2005 (i am almost certain it was 2005). students at that event made some ... i'll call it "artwork", and they were walking around showing it to ramtha, in a long line, each taking their turn. i DID witness that. but what a friend of mine witnessed was an episode where ramtha spoke a foreign language to a foreign student.

as it turned out later on, upon questioning, the foreign student said that in fact, s/he was fluent in the supposed language ramtha was speaking in, and that was NOT the language/dialect that ramtha spoke. the "answer" to that, of course, is that it was a variety of the language which predated the current one. so, as always, the student was made "wrong". how about the possibility of ramtha just making up some gibberish and trying to look like he was speaking a foreign language ? is that possible ?

I was sharing the topic of "proof" with Joe Szimhart recently..
He wrote this responce to the following statement made by a current RSE student..

..."that there is no evidence anywhere that the sort of teachings we have gotten at rse do not work"....


David,
The statement above that you sent made me laugh.

There is no evidence anywhere that reindeer cannot fly.
There is no evidence anywhere that Bigfoot has not mated with an abominable snowman.
There is no evidence anywhere that TMers meditating with the mantra 'Strength of an elephant, Lightness of cotton fiber' cannot levitate. (for that secret mantra you might pay up to 10,000$---no kidding!)
There is no evidence anywhere that I am not Ramtha.

How about this: Is there a chance that JZ guided by Ramtha will submit to a test of identifying the individual marks on 500 turned over cards that I arrange while she/he is blind folded? Oh, hell, forget the blindfold. "They" just have to wait outside the room. JZ/Ram will have a list of all 500 marks. Ram should get 500 out of 500 if he is there. JZ would only get what chance predicts if she is a normal human. Should be a piece of cake for a god.

Joe.

posted with kind permission.

Re: Whatcha
why "CUT BACK ON the amount of time you are there being taught ? would one think "summer school" extra sessions would be in order ?"

OK I am going to digress... Hey DONT TELL ANYONE THIS but I had an idea, since RSE now has streaming internet TV the whole beginners retreat could be done in say 24hrs, straight thru,on line for ...say $500.00.
THIS COULD WORK!!
No dirty toilets at the ranch, no expensive blue "Universal" soap! You use your own laptop and walk around the house (YOUR house) for 24 hrs straight, REMARKABLE!
This way they can pre-tape the whole thing and be off to Ethopia where the REAL beginners are.
That comment is not to slam people in Ethopia, it comes from someone who mentioned to me that when RSE was in China (She was there also)there was such a huge and wonderous response, ESPECAILLY from the women. Seems the women there still feel they are treated poorly... so they really get alot out of the RSE "experience". When this person told me this she was coming from a place of feeling like she was a part of a movement that was bringing freedom and empowerment to these "people". I got a little queezy, seeing a different and much BIGGER picture...
I guess it just reminded ME of how I must have been feeling like I had been treated poorly in my culture, and how that may ????? have fed into why I MOVED here!


PS As for proof, I believe we are seeing some, now.

Whatcha, The artwork parade was at Assay in 2005. We were asked to construct models of point zero, the grid and quantum fields. The parade before Ramtha took hours. Everyone worked in pairs and one person of each pair had to go before Ramtha and show the model. The arena was not far off full.....700 -800 people??? The people present in the arena were given explanations of what they were making. The internet audience were not.

There were two live broadcasts over the internet. One at the beginning of the event and one at the ending. All that the viewers saw at the ending was this parade before Ramtha. You can well imagine that over the internet most of the models are not really very visible.

A complete waste of $50 USD in my view.

Christel,

To add to your post, I can say that the video viewers of Assay V were also told "You should have been here."

My opinion is that it was a blatant money grab, as no "teachings" were given. It was utterly boring for anyone to have to only watch a long parade of kindergarten toys made by students to show "big daddy". What a money grab toward them, too. The levels/pyramid is taught at a Beginner's event, and is clearly posted on the wall. To have asked students to spend however much time obtaining materials to do that pyramid, and then hours more in a time consuming parade, was childish. It just burned time for a 10 day event.

This is just my opinion about and if others enjoyed it and found it worth their investment, good for them.

Getting back to the video viewers; they were taken for $50 to view, as you said, with no explanation for what they were viewing.

It was more of a marketing tool. Look what you missed by not being here. And since you aren't here with your $1,000 in cash, check or money order, we're not sharing info. We're just telling you, you can peek inside for a moment, and we'll let you know you missed something.

Dance is onto something; RSE could get all willing "folkies", "plugged in" at home and just manifest that Billionaire mark that's on The List of Things To Do.

Re: Christel "The parade before Ramtha took hours"

These PARADES, I have fortunately only sat thru 7-8 of them as I attended only 4 "events", were actually a HUGE red flag for me and my partner... What's the "teaching" there???? Its spooky.
During my 1st "parade" I was told to stand up on the side of the arena with the other loosers who couldn't find a remote view card they put in the beginners folder 3 days earlier( obviously THIS was when it took 8 days to become remarkable), about 15 of us (we didnt even get to make our own dunce hats to wear!) stood there for about 1 1/2 hrs.while the prancers pranced thru the arena... What a "teaching"!

onehandontheelephant,What you said is so true.

I left ramtha school and yelm and it was the best thing that I could have done. I love this forum because it has truly helped me in my healing process. I love my life now, I was not happy at Ramtha school, it just did not feel right, too many holes for me and I am truly a person that seeks truth, it is my life.

But, I tell you when you hear that small voice inside of you talking to you,listen because there is a reason why Truth seeker is questioning it all.

Don't be like me, I question the school over and over again when I lived in CA and I knew not to attend or move, but I did and I almost allowed this school to destroy me, when I left Yelm, it was like running and it has been three years since I left Yelm, five since I left the school and thank God that I am not a part of that school. I don't know what is going on there, but something is not right. I am happy now..

I thank everyone for contributing their stories and points of view.

I have read in several other books that the mind likes to play tricks using doubt. I am wondering if the alter ego is truly the initiator of this doubt I have because subconsciously it is beginning to be aware of the potential in the promise of tese teachings. If these teachings are a success, then the alter ego is dissolved and what fun would that be to a state of mind that relies on fear for its own existence.

This is why I am seeking a kind of proof to either support or deny the reality of Ramthas claims. I mean proof definitive for the level of acceptance that I and most humans are at. I want to see the success of my master reflected in one of his students or I want to see the teacher do what he says he can do or lastly, I want to achieve a level of success for myself that can not be disputed by my alter ego.

I am reading here once again a lot of "feelings" stories and they are additive to my doubt but not experiential for me personally.

To simply go on my gut feeling here gives arguement to both sides of the coin. If I stay and see it through, i go against my feelings. If I leave and quit, I may be walking away from a great opportunity and the REAL truth.

Jesus says "seek the kingdom of Heaven within" yet my within is in chaos.

What do you do then?

Truth,
glad to see you hung in there. It sounds like you are looking for absolutes in a world where few exist. Chasing around to hold the truth in this case could be like trying to nail jelly to a wall.

Certain things require an amount of faith to continue with. Look at the people and things you have put faith in as you have grown. Faith need not be blind. Faith is based on a quality of experience that has a consistancy and more often your best interests at heart.

This ramtha/JZ thing has specificly said it would lie if necessary.It has and consistantly, so if you are into that sort of thing I could see where you could have faith in it.

I see clearly why ramtha/JZ says that. It has nothing to do with students interests. It has all to do with ramtha/JZ and an open door policy to be able to lie and have no repercussions. Whenever caught in a lie it can just say "I told you before that I would lie to you didn't I???" Leaving you to be the fool for not having remembered and you then are the fool because you needed to be lied to, you then are the fool for even having pointed out the lie.

Is it any wonder you feel chaos about returning????

Of course you should be able to hold someone responsible for lying to you.

Especially someone in a position of authority. Would you accept lying from your Dr?, lawyer, police chief, banker, priest, rabbi, professor, spouse,? Why then accept it from ramtha/JZ, Greg Simmons or any of the other "teachers"?

One reason to accept it might be because one is so busy trying to resolve the battle between the divided self that the group leaders inculcate, be it ego, alterego, monkey-mind, analogical mind, yellow brain, reptillian brain...etc.

Ultimately, IMHO one should look for things which intigrate their personality and being, not allow anyone to chop apart and butcher their personality and thought processes. The person with the agenda divides and conquers just like in warfare only the war they create is in ones-self.

Re: TruthSeeker "I am wondering if the alter ego is truly the initiator of this doubt I have because subconsciously it is beginning to be aware of the potential in the promise of tese teachings. If these teachings are a success, then the alter ego is dissolved and what fun would that be to a state of mind that relies on fear for its own existence."

MAN do I know this route!!!!! A house divided... just the idea of going back and forth IS the argument you are wondering about??? I often use the old "if its not an absolute yes, its an absolute no" gauge.
These "feelings" stories we are telling that are not experiential for you, not "proof" YOUR feelings are your proof. If you feel you have questions, doubts, SO BE IT, you have them, to deny them is not (necessarily) to be the master on your bridge. At the end of the day WHO are you going to be left with? Hopefully yourself and your God. Make a decision and make it right (when its time for you to do so, you'll know) until then just gather the data and trust your God to be there with you thru it all.
I wasnt in RSE for very long but I heard ALOT OF HOOPLA about all the great advantages to Chaos(while I was there), actually I believe THAT is a smokescreen for keeping people in a state of confusion, whilst you tell them what to do and what to think, and if you keep them in the Chaos long enough, you can control their respective FUTURE decisions too.
You say your within is in Chaos, that, I am assuming, is a feeling you are having, right? Your honoring it by asking the questions you are asking here, are you not? Your trusting that it is OK to ask questions, correct? If your desire to ascend, to become enlightened, to grow and become the Godself that you are, is sincere (as it appears to be) then dont you also know that your questions are valid and sincere?
Another great teacher I listen to once pointed out to me that in regards to the "Ego" its NOT a matter of "get thee behind me Satan" when we look at ourselves as though we have some dirty little devil to erradicate on the inside we're kind-of "Bleeped" from the get-go.

Well said Journey.

Truth......

Ramtha claims to be the master teacher or Hierophant.

The four "tools" used by the Hierophant are said to be:

He defeats the mind.
He disappoints the heart.
He promotes worry in ones material world.
He promotes strife within oneself.

To this Ramtha is a master.

TRUTH-seeker,

Ramtha will not alleviate your doubt for you. He will let you wallow in it until YOU make a decision about what you believe. Because in reality, that's who you really have - YOU.

We have THIS life in THIS body at THIS time. Perhaps we should be living it, instead of trying to "find it".

One thing I realized a while after I left RSE (which was just over a year ago), was after I muddled through my array of emotions after finally looking straight into the eye of the deception that was RSE, was that I did still FEEL. After a time when I didn't feel much from the shock/numbness (perhaps a self protection for a while), I thought I was shut down for good. Not at all.

Here is a story that is true just from today. I was in the van with my family, as we drove to our desitination. We played a music CD of my favorite singer. Cranked up my/our favorite song and belted out the lyrics at the top of our lungs. The words are so beautiful. The singer's passion is so beautiful.

As I sat there singing, and FEELING the depth of the message within the song, I could feel so much love in my chest it was like fireworks were coming out of me. It rushed up into my head and felt like it was coming out of my cheeks and the top of my head. It sometimes will take my breath away for a few moments. I was truly in the moment with that experience and it was profound for me. Those moments happen to me more and more and more often. When I feel them, I seize them. I focus on heaven on earth, and a 4th seal planet at least ! I do want that as reality. I want my children to grow on a planet where we have evolved beyond war. You see where I'm going with this.

We arrived at the store, and I was explaining to hubby how I felt and that rush of energy that keeps coming over me. As we got into the store we went to, there was a clothing rack in front of us with t-shirts on it. The shirt facing me had spirals upon it, and butterflies. There was a saying screenprinted upon it. It read; I am beautiful on the inside and gorgeous on the outside.

Hubby and I just looked at each other, upon noticing this syncrhonistic moment and laughed and smiled over it all.

What is my point ? Life. WE are really it. We are love and we are life. It's EVERYWHERE. If we all saw it, we would not have war anymore. I think that feeling that is like the fourth of July coming out of my chest is what it could be like for all of us. Perhaps you have felt it, too. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has felt it !!!

That has nothing to do with feelings of inner strife.

If Ramtha is real and he loves you, he will not abandon you because you aren't sitting in that arena. That position on his part, would be very conditional for you to have to be there. Hmm. If he is not real, then you still have YOU, anyway.

Follow your heart. Trust your heart.

Re: Whatcha
Great story! Thanks for sharing it.When we're letting it in and in our own flow its so wonderful to see how the entire universe is right there with us!
You made a point about Ramtha at the end of your post that brought up something I had "forgotton".
Before I made the final decsion to get involved with RSE (in a big way, as in leave my "life" and move here) I was meditating and asking for guidance, actually it was more like I was levitating and screaming for a "sign", and I "heard" a strong voice say (something to the effect of)...
This was Ramtha, an ascended master and there was no need for me to move to Yelm to be a student, either way I was being taught from here on out, because of my own desire.
I had forgotton that, I also moved here anyway
I guess after living here this past year, and now deciding to go home... I can see "his"? point!!

http://minet.org/mantras.html


This is the web page that has ALL the many Secret Mantras from TM....

Thought you might like to have it... save 10,000.00

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There is no evidence anywhere that TMers meditating with the mantra 'Strength of an elephant, Lightness of cotton fiber' cannot levitate. (for that secret mantra you might pay up to 10,000$---no kidding!)

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