Working with the idea of forgiveness in that everything we see "outside" of ourselves is actually a reflection of what is on the inside (of us) and the only way to release and move on is to "own" what we percieve as aspects of "other", forgive them (thus ourselves) and move on.
Is anyone here working with any of these principles? Has anyone thought much about what we have been "using" our RSE experience (that we say is over with) for?
I have been posting here for a couple weeks, and it has helped move me thru some issues I had with the way the material at the school was presented. I am extremely grateful for all of your input and offerings.
I am not interested in blaming RSE, JZ, The Ram,(nor anyone or anything else) for the unaligned aspects of my life. I am interested in inner Peace.
It seems to come sooner when I can own my projected "issues" and forgive myself.Once I truly see that what I accuse others of... are only the aspects of self that I am unwilling to forgive myself for, it gets clear real fast as to how to "heal".
I can surely see, in my own life clearly, where I have been JZ and the RAM. Good God! Anyone who knows me knows that.
When I have felt that I knew the RIGHT way, I have pushed others to do it (My) right way, I have stepped on others, used others, treated others poorly. And when I have been working on WANTING to believe new ideas that seem to buck the old "system" I have made it hell for anyone around me who is not working on those same NEW ideas... I have also gotton carried away with being a "Legend in My Own Living Room" even if my living room was smaller than the Ranch.
I have found myself in (self made) predicaments now and then, where I told someone something (strongly, like this IS the way it is), only to find out later I was wrong. I have not always been able to go back and clean this up.
If I continue to believe I must(or will) be punished for these transgressions I will never allow my self the inner Peace that comes from aligning with my innocence. And, if I continue to believe OTHERS must be punished for their also supposed transgressions, I also will never feel release.
Be Cause there is no OTHER.
Again, is anyone out there or here working with these ideas??

Hi Dance... I've been working with this aspect & these issues for a number of years, but the emotion would not release for me. Even when I was in RSE, if I became upset I 1st would go into meditation & look at myself. I've used so many modalities & affirmations. Part of the disillusionment has been that nothing seemed to totally resolve the painful emotion. Using the new energy psychology technique "Emotional Freedom Technique" is beginning to change that. As Gary Craig explains when we have an incident that causes a fear response, an electrical circuit in a meridian closes. This causes the "negative emotion". The problem comes when it's a long-standing issue that becomes "chronic". The circuit never gets to open (letting in love & energy) & becomes stuck closed. Also, I'm checking into another aspect, that which is the personality being out of sync with the Soul's vision. Sue Wisehart's website talks about aspects of people who have been stuck in patterns & used all the available usual modalities. She uses EFT, but has also developed something she calls "Soul Visioning". There are testimonials from people who have had help from her using these modalities. I can only speak from my own perspective & experience; there's more to this than simply stating "I forgive this...". No matter how much I have wanted to "forgive",(& I'm very sincere)it hasn't always happened. Depending on the amount of brainwashing & trauma experienced, it may take techniques & tools that are just now being made available. It hasn't always made sense to me that I've incorporated & integrated other modalities to only have the same "negative emotions". Sue talks about using past life & between life regression, as some people have brought in the trauma from previous lives & it needs to be resolved from a different level. I feel the issue of "negative emotions" is a lot more complex for some people & may necessitate the use of several new "energy psychology" techniques to get to the "root" of the issue. Like I said, this is only my experience. I almost gave up & wanted to die when I had the nervous breakdown. All I ever wanted (which was why I entered RSE) was to be able to come to "inner peace" & know divine love & connection. This is what drove me to do the "disciplines" everyday at least twice a day. So it's not for the lack of commitment or desire to "forgive", at least for me. It's also what continues to drive me to call forth to my Soul for what I need to heal this. For complex abuse/being stuck issues, it may take help in the form of other tools & practitioners that address multiple levels from the Soul to the physical. I wish I had clear answers, but I can only go 1 step at a time as my Soul guides me to what I need next. This is the form that it's taking now. I send you blessings for that "inner peace" & wish all well & healing.
M.

Dance, I often came across this concept but it never rang true for me: "Working with the idea of forgiveness in that everything we see "outside" of ourselves is actually a reflection of what is on the inside (of us) and the only way to release and move on is to "own" what we percieve as aspects of "other", forgive them (thus ourselves) and move on."

If Jesus (or any truly enlightened being) was in Iraq right now (or any place on this planet where one faction is battling another), surely he would see the people fighting another? If he could see the fighting, does that necessarily mean that the battle is actually a reflection of what is going on inside of him?

Granted, an enlightened being wouldn't see ANYTHING as outside himself, because he/she would experience oneness with everything. I understand that nothing is really outside myself. I don't "know" this in the way an enlightened being would know this, but I understand that we are all drops in one ocean, experiencing the illusion of being separate.

But on a practical level, I see a lot of things going on in this physical illusion, and I just don't resonate with EVERYTHING I see in this illusion being something I need to get involved with owning and forgiving. EVERYTHING? Everything I've ever seen in my life, including everything I've seen on the evening news, reflect what is on the inside of me and needs to be owned and forgiven? How could that possibly make sense or be truly useful? How could I experience the joy of living, unless I went around with my eyes taped shut (!) so I would not see anything. Maybe this sounds good when some so-called spiritual teacher says it and everyone else is nodding in rapt agreement. Perhaps this concept has helped a lot of people sell a lot of books and seminars, but I don't find it helpful.

RE: M. McMillan
You offer so much in the way of healing paths, thank you. I am throughly enjoying the EFT "manual" I downloaded, and working with some of the tapping techniques, actually during my meditation.
In regards to "owning" thats a pretty big catch phrase thats been around awhile. For many years I believe I had it wrong in that when I felt I needed to try to "own" something I was still in the process of beating myself up, which isnt forgiveness at all.
I feel like I am coming to understand the concept at a whole new level. No matter what we do or feel in this illusion it is not real, all of it (including and especially our thoughts about it)is based on the belief that we somehow are separated from our source and must somehow make it home.
Forgiveness just means that we have come to desire more than anything else, to know our true nature and that we are and have always been one with the source of all that is.
As long as we believe there is something TO forgive, we may not be ready yet to move thru to the other side.Yes, I know the feeling of wanting to forgive and not being able to really have it happen, yet.
You sincerely sound as if you are well on your way to coming to an inner peace that you have so longed for, I applaud all ,the work you have done on your journey. Your right there appear to be many levels to all of this.

RE: onehand

I think an enlightened one would certainly "see" the fighting but their response would be one of understanding the truth behind what they were seeing and not a reaction as if what they were seeing were The Truth. Boy thats hard to write out!
So yes, I suppose what I am saying is that what we see is a reflection of what is going on in us (if we are "seeing" from our ego/humanness, but when we see it from our source self we understand it is just another animated version of the (supposed)origianl separation, which never occured.(yet seems but to repeat itself over and over AND OVER in time/space).
I dont think we need to address those things that are going on in the illusion that dont resonate with us, either.
But if I am re-acting, I can be sure Im resonating!It feels useful for me and it makes sense for me to not tape my eyes and just trust that what I need to work thru will be presented to me, Im never given more than I can handle.Actually I have had no "so called spiritual teacher" say this to me while I nodded in rapt attention...
The first time I read these concepts I was actually quite shaken up, and it was quite a while ago. It took some getting used to and alot of trust on my part to look a bit deeper into my self and ask for help, then be willing to recieve it. I am extremely grateful for what little clarity I got back then, and more-so now.
I love it that lots of people are able to sell their books and have the seminars, for me it seems wonderful that so many are finding joy in their lives and helping others too. More power to all of us! I would be excited to have someone buy my book and attend my seminar, and I hope they do when I find myself in that position.

Yes, DanceTheWind, I have and am working with the idea of forgiveness. What you have posted is beautiful, honest, and makes complete sense to me. This is one of the reasons I have very little to say on this forum. I mostly just read what others have to say.

RE:on the fence
Thank you... It would be great if more people who are reading and not posting, would speak up also.

Hi,
Just chiming in here briefly. Hubby is home this week and before he goes back to work next week, we're busy ... enjoy our time. I'm not online much.

onehand said: "I understand that we are all drops in one ocean, experiencing the illusion of being separate."

This is something I can related to. My understanding is we are all drops in the same ocean. We are all cells in a larger, cosmic body. Yet, I could have a stubbed toe, and be aware of that, while the rest of my body is just fine.

We all live on the same planet; we share that commonality-resonance.
We all make choices about our actions. We choose to live a variety of levels on a spectrum when it comes to our moral compass, our levels of compassion, honesty, integrity, base emotions, etc.
I am responsible for my "drop in the ocean" as that is the one that I am consciously aware of and responsible for. I can see that others I am connected to in spirit/the ocean, may be murdering, dying, giving birth, making love, folding laundry, planting gardens, hurting innocent children, lying, stealing, volunteering, etc. That does not mean that I am those things as my drop in the ocean. It means I could be. I choose what I choose, though. That's why I can observe the choices of others, and understand that at a higher level, we're connected, but at a base level, they've chosen a different "play" to enact.
Where does forgiveness play into this ? I think that, too, has levels of understanding. From a higher level, or what we may call an enlightened level, it may evoke tears of compassion. Why? Because it is possible that we could ALL choose a life of love, an evolved moral compass, deep respect for life, compassion, joy, health, (you see where I'm going with this). At a base level, (living in physical on this planet), I can feel the sadness of anything that is "less than heaven on earth", but with the understanding that for reasons unknown to me, people have made other choices than I have made.
What I feel I have to forgive, is the things that are in my immediate control; MY life and actions. I can forgive myself for having said or done the things that have hurt others. I can be adult about it (and here it the accountability/responsibility factor), and in doing so, make sure I don't repeat those behaviors. Or, I could be a child inside, and blame anyone else but myself, and continue the actions/choices.
I think it's possible that people can equate forgiving someone with not dealing with someone. With RSE as an example, I can be in a space where I forgive JZ/Ramtha/RSE for what I believe is "wrong". Yet, in that space, it does not have to be equal to not speaking about what was/is wrong. I can still be me, making yet more, wiser choices in my life, and simply speak the truth about what I know.
For me, I think that coming to terms with the EMOTIONS that are connected with the "wrongs", is to find the inner peace, and I am partly there. But again, and this is just for myself, my moral compass will not allow me to walk away in silence about what I know. What has gone on at RSE includes personality issues, but also goes far beyond that, and into a realm where people's lives - the one trip they get in this body - have been slightly damaged to financially or otherwise ruined beyond repair. No human being should have to pay that "price" for enlightenment, or even a chance at enlightenment.
My two cents....until I have time to post again!
Great thread !!

Re: Whatcha
Thanks so much for your input!That we are all playing a "part", our drop in th ocean, yet all conected only different in our seeming "choices" that feel right for me too.
I too feel that whatever I need to own or forgive will be brought to my attention, today and every day. I feel that I can trust that.If I decide not to move thru it today, no big deal, I'll surely be given the opportunity again, usually in about 15 minutes!!!
I agree that forgiving does not equate to "not speaking" about our experiences, in order to make an informed choice, its good to at least feel we have been "informed". And yes, its mostly our emotions or "reaction" that I am speaking of when I feel I need to really look within and see whats going on with me.
Years ago I had a HUGE experience while watching a movie about a female serial killer. I dont remember the name of the movie, its old now, but it was supposed to be the true story of her life and I believe she killed 5-6 men before she was caught. Of course she had been abused, etc. while a young girl and then one night as a grown woman who was living a not-so-hot life (to put it mildly) she enacted "revenge" (killed a man).
I was really engrossed in the movie, female serial killers being rare and not often covered in the "entertainment" (????)industry, and I had this HUGE AHAAA when she killed the 1st guy... There but for the grace of God, go I. It was like watching a standing row of dominos go down.. Like I saw a series of events in my "past" where I was at that exact same pivotal moment in time/space and CHOOSE otherwise.
I saw that that one instant of making a different choice changed my future life completely and it happened so quickly that without my seeing this movie I doubt I would have even remembered it...
Just thinking about this gives me chills.
Forgivness seems like this for me sometimes, like WHOA!!! Thank you Thank you Thank you.... to my source being there for me.

>>>>Thank you Thank you Thank you.... to my source being there for me.

Hi Dance...Thank you for that response to my post. I feel you hit the nail head on for me when you stated the realization is that there's nothing to forgive ourselves for. In using the EFT the last several days, I've come to see that much of what wasn't letting go was the emotion that I had experienced as a result of whatever. There's been a lot of guilt/shame that I experienced anger, hatred, resentment, etc. This came from childhood programming that emotion, especially the "negative" ones are bad. As I used EFT to release these, then the thought that I didn't want to be a "bad" person came in. It's finding out that the judgment is what I was "told" was bad about me & my honest feelings toward abusive experiences. Had I been allowed to express my feelings about how I was being treated, those people would have had to look at themselves & their "negative" emotions. Well, this has been a helpful thread to follow. Thank all of you for your postings. M.

Re: M. McMillan
Nothing to forgive ourselves for, and...
in the end,
nothing to forgive anyone else for either.

The old double whammy..
**** happens, we feel angry and resentful (fear)
THEN we are told we ARE BAD for feeling BAD more fear)
What a vicious circle we are ALL in in this thought system, its lose/lose no matter how you look at it, ya know?

Permission, permission
Give ourselves the permission that all the figures in our "culture" couldn't (give us or themselves)the permission to have...
Being told/instructed that/shown, you are powerless is a lie and the most debilitating way, on the planet, to live. No one WANTS to feel anger and resentment, but anger sure feels better than powerlessness. And from anger we can at least work our way back to a state of grace (though it may take a while).
You are so right in knowing that you have every right to feel your feelings in regards to any situation in your creation, how can we ever move past or thru anything if we dont give ourselves the permission to BE what we are in the situation? Denial serves no-one.
Its great to hear you have exposed some more of the darkness surrounding these swirling waters in your experience. And refreshing to KNOW we can rise from the places that were hurting for so long... with simple allowing on the inside.

Hi,

I had what I thought was a good post - and somehow I got distracted and only actually posted the quote (in my previous post in this thread) ! Ack !!

Anyway, I agree with the comments about forgiveness and denial.

We have emotions for a reason. We're supposed to feel them. Some of them we are supposed to keep in control (rage for example,.. you know what I mean). But feeling shame, anger, blame, when you have been betrayed, hurt, duped...that is to be expected ! It's healthy to feel those things. It's when one goes into denial that there is a problem, and starts using DEFENSE MECHANISMS (denial, repression, projection, etc), and NOT dealing with these issues, that's unhealthy.

Two or three cents...

Re: Whatcha
"Thank you Thank you Thank you.... to my source being there for me....only actually posted the quote (in my previous post in this thread) ! Ack !!"

I thought that was quite succinct (sp?)

It feels important to mention that even though there are no "bad" feelings, as in "we shouldn't feel them" there are places where we get stuck and stay for much longer than is necessary for our own sweet good...
Recongnizing that there is a problem and asking for a way to see the truth moves us out of the "bad" feelings and on to higher ground. Its not for anyone other than ourselves that we do this (since there isnt any "other" anyway).
I truly believe that if I am feeling I have been betrayed, hurt or duped that I am not really seeing the whole picture. Many times, if I am feeling one of those things, upon closer observation I find that it was I that betrayed myself; by not honoring my OWN connection to source and trusting my knowing.
In the case of RSE each time a "teaching" went totally against my inner sense of what is true and what I really came into the school for FOR (to learn),
each time I questioned my ouen inner knowing then did NOT follow thru with the guidance I recieved... I betray, hurt and dupe, ME.
No one did it to me. The longer I continue to ingnore the only voice that will ever really take me home, the farther away the voice appears to be calling to me from, the more desperate I feel inregards to this sense of separation (from my source),the stronger I feel someone "else" has done this to me... Never really getting it that I am the someone else AND the source. Its my choice and my responsibilty to choose.
If I realize this is all the illusion of separation from source and everyone is dealing with the same issue, obviously with the appearance of different degrees and levels, we are all doing the same thing, to "each other", therefore to ourselves.
Dealing with the issue may actaully mean to recognize there is no issue at all, that's what the forgiveness is for, because in the end, there is nothing to forgive. We have done no "wrong", they have done no "wrong", there is no "wrong", there is only perception and perception is not knowledge because it's based on the illusion of separateness.
As long as I WANT something from "them", the school, the others, JZ, RSE, Ramtha, our government, the church, mom & dad, my boss, my spouse, my kids, YOU NAME IT... To be redeemed, to be approved, to be heard, to be seen, to be taken care of, to be listened to, to be apologized to, to be loved by...
as long as I come from a position of lack, in any regard, I am not connected to the truth of my heritage as a complete and whole aspect of the ONE.
Peace (inner) only comes when we lay all weapons aside especially when we see that the most difficult weapons to put down are the ones we raise in the screaming darkness on the inside, against ourselves and ultimately against the "others" in our creation. What a great sigh of relief, the great outbreath of Gods... when we just let it go.
We are all innocent as we are all one, in this case truth is either true or it isn't truth at all.

DanceTheWind,

Your post reads like something from a guide book to living on planet utopia, unfortunately or fortunately we are living on planet Earth that encompasses every spectrum of human experiences.. from the rape of innocence to unconditional love.
Quote.. …Its not for anyone other than ourselves that we do this (since there isnt any "other" anyway).

Then you must know everything about everything….
DO YOU ?

Quote... each time I questioned my own inner knowing then did NOT follow thru with the guidance I received... I betray, hurt and dupe, ME.

That does that not negate the accountability of those that have or would betray, hurt and dupe,, anyone of us.

Quote... No one did it to me.
Quote...we are all doing the same thing, to "each other", therefore to ourselves.

On planet utopia perhaps. But when someone “else” gives you a gift..do you not say thank you ?. or if someone else steps on your toes..do you not ask them to get off?

Quote...Dealing with the issue may actually mean to recognize there is no issue at all, that's what the forgiveness is for, because in the end, there is nothing to forgive.
Quote...there is no "wrong", there is only perception and perception is not knowledge because it's based on the illusion of separateness.
Quote...as long as I come from a position of lack, in any regard, I am not connected to the truth of my heritage as a complete and whole aspect of the ONE.
Quote...We are all innocent as we are all one, in this case truth is either true or it isn't truth at all.

DanceTheWind,

Your post remind me of something Margaret Thaler wrote about….
“Sometimes the induction method is speech filled with paradox and discrepancy -- that is, the message is not logical and you are unable to follow it, but it is presented as though it were logical. Trying to follow what is being said can actually detach the listener from reality. A good example of this technique comes from cult leader Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh's comments at an initiation ceremony in which he gave each disciple a new name along with directives to wear first orange- and then plum-colored clothing and a necklace with his picture on it. Reading what Rajneesh said can give you a feeling for what words can do to cause a person to enter a light trance, or space out.

"First, the picture is not mine. The picture only appears to be mine. No picture of me is really possible. The moment one knows oneself, one knows something that cannot be depicted, described, framed. I exist as an emptiness that cannot be pictured, that cannot be photographed. That is why I could put the picture there...The more you know the picture -- the more you concentrate on it, the more you come in tune with it -- the more you will feel what I am saying. The more you concentrate on it, the more there will not be a picture there".


Excerpts from "Cults in Our Midst", Margaret Thaler Singer, Ph.D.,


To rap my post up... and hopefully to be "succinct"…

Forgiveness is empty… without truth and accountability.
Unless of course..you live on planet Utopia.

chuckle..


David

Re: David
"Your post reads like something from a guide book to living on planet utopia"

Thank you! The thread is about Forgiveness, and the website is called "Enlighten Me FREE" right? Did I miss something????
I was writing about Freedom and Forgiveness; in my opinion, the way I see it, the way it happens for me, in my words, from my experience, from my heart...
It seems if your saying that if I choose NOT to stay fixated in the "problem" AND attempt to voice some POSSIBLE ways to move beyond it... that's just somehow NOT appropriate.(for you)
Cool! That's your choice, I like imagining UTOPIA, frankly and I LOVE feeling GOOD!!! And HEY while I'm at it,
I AM NOW TAKING ORDERS FOR MY FIRST GUIDEBOOK TO UTOPIA, complete with a companion CD of our magical musical compositions, and a DAILY planner so you can chart your progress towards the creation of your very OWN UTOPIA!!!
$29.95 +s/h
Look for the DVD in late 2007!!!!

P.S. This is not a LIMITED EDITION item!

Also David, since you have quoted me so much in your above post, I think the daily planner (complete with my quotes at the top of each page)that has enough room for your own musings and Utopian ideas under the quote... Would be your best bet to purchase!

"I AM NOW TAKING ORDERS FOR MY FIRST GUIDEBOOK TO UTOPIA"

It had better be good;
You will be competing with alot of spiritual hustlers out there.

As I said in a previous post – I had comments for this thread, and only one tiny reference to my overall post made it through ! So, now that I have some time, I’ll try again.

Onehandontheelephant, I commented to you, that I agreed with this: “I often came across this concept but it never rang true for me: "Working with the idea of forgiveness in that everything we see "outside" of ourselves is actually a reflection of what is on the inside (of us) and the only way to release and move on is to "own" what we percieve as aspects of "other", forgive them (thus ourselves) and move on." “

Personally, I don’t agree that everything we see outside of ourselves is what is on the inside (is us). I’ve seen all sorts of things in my life; “good” and “bad” and “in between”. Just because I an observe them, doesn’t mean they are also me. I can turn on the tv news or read the paper, and dreadful stories of human hatred occurring, will be there. Because I read about it, or see it on tv, doesn’t mean I do those things. I have the sentience to not choose them, despite the fact that I share the same planet as those folks.

If I believe that at a higher level, we are spiritually all connected, it still doesn’t make me the same as someone who kills another human being in hatred. (just an example)

I think we all have a basic responsibility to live a moral life; to have a moral compass that would say, “I do not want to, nor am I going to, treat other human beings in anything less than a lofty manner, with the highest respect for human life.” I can choose to live my life along that line, but I can’t force others to. If in my mind, I hold the vision of World Peace and Love (and I have), I do not see it. I see instances of it, but I do not see this planet without war, hatred, starvation, etc. So, at least at a larger level, I know that I do not create the reality of others, or of this planet. To teach me, via RSE (or anywhere it applies) that I can manifest ANYTHING, is untrue. If I could, I would be living on planet earth in a state of heaven on earth. How can I do that, even if I can personally be happy in my private life, when I know there are human beings suffering, who would be thrilled not to be if only they could.

At the level of this physical experience, where do experience separateness, and we make personal choices that may affect not only ourselves, but others, come in to play, accountability and responsibility.

If someone does us wrong, we may forgive them, and move on. If they repeat what was forgiven, then it’s no longer about forgiveness. It’s about accountability. Forgiving oneself is another story. We can forgive, for example, having been in RSE and been told things that are theory at best, were truths. We can forgive our own shame at having fallen for something that, in hindsight, seemed to preposterous. But forgiveness doesn’t equate pulling the blinds down and not seeing what is in existence.

The joy that I can have inside of me, is based on my own personal journey/experiences. I don’t have to shut that joy out, because there is suffering in the world. But, what I can do, I can do, is have compassion, and speak the truth as I know it. For that, I don’t need to forgive and forget. I need (and have) forgiven myself for making the mistake of believing something to be what it PRESENTED ITSELF TO BE, but was not. For that, there should be accountability.

Also, mixed into this (speaking for myself, of course), is the issue of understanding the subtle and progressive machinations of mind control. If I can look at my RSE journey and forgive the “wrongs”, and even have accountability from RSE (hahaha, I won’t hold my breath), it still does not change the fact that it is WRONG to mislead people by using mind control tactics to slowly lure them into a “teaching”, that on the outer fringes of it, seems like you have finally found all of the answers you were looking for, only to realize later on (as many thousands who have left the school have realized), that the deeper (more advanced) the teachings get, the more restrictive they become, and controlling…and demanding…all the while….costing lots of money.

So yeah, I can forgive it all, but I don’t have to forget it all, or shut up about it. I can be happy, and keep healthy boundaries clear, about who I am, and what RSE chooses to be and do. For that, and for the brainwashed students (my opinion), I have deep compassion. They think they are so open minded and free, but they’re far from it. They are only as open minded and free as the latest event determines their thoughts should be to resonate with the dogma of the day.

Truth has no competition.

DanceTheWind..

$29.95 +s/h is a bit steep...
How about a discount for all former cult members?

chuckle...

David

While we're in the area,the "Greater Rainier" area that is, we'll forgo the shipping and handling...

I stumbled accross this website, and I feel deep compassion for the many here who have had a most difficult experience with the group that you were once involved with. Forgiveness, to me, is about letting go...... It is about turning the page Everyone, at some point or another, will experience circumstances and situations that they wish they hadn't. Take a person who used drugs heavily for many years as an example. They may have lost their jobs, their families, their friends, and often most of what they owned ( car, house etc....) If one day, they stop using, they would most likely run the gauntlet of many emotions. Sadness, guilt, anger, and ofcourse, regret.....To feel all of these things is normal It would certainly take them some time to come to a point of acceptance and peace over what had transpired during their drug using years. Working through those emotions is an arduous task, to say the least. I'm happy to see that you all post messages about how you are feeling. This, I believe, is a wonderful way towards healing the wounds that you have in your hearts. At some point though, it is important to completely let go......What happened has happened, and as difficult as it was, today you are free to turn the page, and continue forward. Like all difficult experiences, in my opinion, there are surely some things that you have learned, that have helped you to become all the wiser. These things are the gifts that you have gained as a direct result of having lived your experience, first hand. The new choices that you make today, will not resemble, in any way, the choices you had made in the past. You are all the wiser, you now know what you don't want in your life anymore. You have made room for the new. Your slate is clean....It's up to you to write what you wish upon it

Re: Thelighterside
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I Deeply apprieciate your willingness to express what many of the people (Ive spoken with) who READ these threads feel. Especially right at this moment in time/space when I personally feel tired and bored by the whole "Poor me?, Poor us?" pity-pot routine.
You have brightened my morning considerably!!!There is HOPE after all!!

I agree with you that forgiveness can mean moving on. I have moved on, myself. I have no complaints about my life at this time. However, I also feel compassion (rather than judgment or anger or annoyance), for those who have found themselves in situations that are not at all what they expected, having followed the teachings they received, and implemented them, to no avail.

Moving on, however, doesn't have to equate "silence". I get emails from people I haven't even met, and some that I have, who are also glad that this website is available to them. My point being, there are a lot of folks, who have all walked many different paths. What "turning the page" is for one person, it is something else for another, of course. Compassion is a good thing. As is tolerance and respect - the NOBLE VIRTUES that many teachers talk of.

Welcome... Thelightersideoflife

Thank you for your post..

Your analogy to compare a drug user to former RSE members is a poor one..."in my opinion"
Here is why..
Insomuch that a drug user feeds a selfish and destructive habit...and will unlikely pretend otherwise.
Whereas 90% of the people I know caught in the RSE snare are people who believe they are on a spiritual path benefiting humankind.
Yes…
there is addiction, selfishness and destruction in the equation, but as with any cult members their addiction is fed by charismatic cult leaders.
In any caring and forgiving neighborhood they would keep the drug dealers off their streets.
I suspect that this philosophy of forgiveness and “allowing” is often used as a convenient new age/spiritual scapegoat to not face the " Drug dealers/cult leaders" in our neighborhood.

David

Today, I saw my Woody Woodpecker

I love all birds. I have some suet attached to one of the trees on my land. Last year, I hung it from a branch, but the bluebirds weren't willing to swing, to and fro, to pick and nibble. Only the woodpeckers were brave enough to latch on. This year, I made a change, and nailed the suet to my very old pine tree. SUCCESS...... All types of birds now visit, for they can perch on the branch that juts out in front of their yummy treat. But the Woodpecker.......what a brave little bird. They come every single day, regardless of the weather. Sometimes, when it's really windy, the snow blows horizontally. A saying from here says, " It's so windy, the wind could blow the horns off of a bull !!!" Despite the ruthless gusts of the winter winds, the Woodpecker visits my tree. He is my best example of tireless courage and strength. With effort, the Woodpecker always gets the prize !!..... I love to watch him, I did see him this morning.....by the way, I named him Bogus...[Bogus= Unbelievable]........But True.......

Just thought that I would share this cute little story with all of you [

I do respect what all of you are doing here. I have not shared the same experience as all of you, but I have had MORE than my share of hardships.I know first hand about having to put one foot in front of the other, when at times I could swear that I didn't have any feet. I will not visit here, if I am not welcome.
I was under the impression that you were all interested in sharing some support and encouragement. Maybe the timing isn't right.

Warm Hugs to all of you

Welcome... Thelightersideoflife

Thank you for your post..

David

Welcome, thelighterside...
Your post radiates compassion and wisdom, and says so beautifully what I feel about my own RSE experience, and so many other experiences that I have learned from. With time, and a lot of self-reflection, I took away some pearls of wisdom from my RSE experiences, and left all regrets behind.

I do acknowlege that the "Ramtha" now appearing is nearly the opposite of the energy that I experienced during the earlier years. I will share some information about my own experiences soon, which may give more recent students some information they have not heard before. Until then, thank you for your words, and I hope you will post here again.

onehand...

i, for one, look forward to reading what you have to say about the contrast of "then" and "now" in the teachings. i have also been in the school since the better part of 20 years ago. for a short time i was out, and went back. in 2006 i didn't return.

i do also recall ramtha saying that he was done teaching. he also said that he wasn't going to teach anymore because the students weren't even implementing what they had been given for disciplines.
i'm not commenting on that personally. i'm only citing what i remember.

in any case, the stark contrast between what it was like many years ago (more fourth seal and higher) compared to the more recents years (more first 3 seals), was a learning curve for me.

ramtha talked directly to me, at my very last event. i knew it was over. i knew it was my last event. it was as though he was telling me, "get out of here", and i don't mean in a bad way, but a protective way. was it really "ramtha" that talked to me, or was it j.z. ? i can't even go there, because it's an entirely different conversation in my opinion. my point with this post, is the comment to the stark contrast of years ago vs. more recent years in the school. it is, to me, a definite decline in many ways. of course, more current students wouldn't even recognize that, having nothing to compare to.

for me, having met more and more people who have left the school, online, in person, via phone, emails ... has been a blessing. to hear each person's story, and to realize how different we are, how different our journey's have been, how impacted (good/bad) we've been, is like adding one more piece to complete a puzzle.

it creates a fuller picture - a broader view beyond just my personal story. people have walked away nearly unscathed, and others have lost everything, and others are somewhere in between. most dedicated their years to the school, as a priority, since we were told it's a "7 year school", and we were willing to give up whatever we had to, to invest in our own spirituality.

thank you for posting.
whatcha

Welcome thelightersideof.. Your posts show a thoughtfullness & compassion which are welcomed. I feel the attack from another on the "pity party" was unwarranted but understandable if one hasn't walked "10 miles in those mocassins". Unfortunately, some of those who post on this sight experienced major trauma from verbal/emotional abuse (and also some physical as I've been told by those who actually witnessed or received it themselves)from RSE. I liken those years from about 1988-2006 as a frog being put in a cooking pot with lukewarm water. The frog is comfortable & doesn't do anything. Slowly the heat is turned up till it's too late for the frog. It's much the same as the abused spouse principle, it starts out slowly & escalates over the years. For those who have experienced long abusive relationships/traumas the "forgiveness" doesn't happen by just saying "go away". I do feel (for me) that, as well as sharing my experiences & feelings about it, I also need help from other practitioners to heal this with the newer energy psychology methodologies. I'm working with a hypnotherapist to access the subconscious programs, as well as other methods to access the cellular memories, to change the imprint of the memories. Forgiveness for me is also realizing that I am angry, not just at JZ, but also myself for being "stupid". That imprint is also there for an even longer term than RSE. There are days when I feel extremely vengeful toward her & the pain she has facilitated. However, my main focus is to "overwrite or reprogram" the programming that's actually causing the mental/emotional & physical pain. That's when, I feel, forgiveness is truly attained, when the pain is no longer there 'cause the memories have been changed in the subconscious & cellular structures. When I was in RSE I was of the mind that one could just decide & simply change their mind, but my own experiences were a shake-up having led me on the path of the mind, its parts, & the realization of what really is running our lives isn't the conscious part that makes the decision it wants to do something. It is the subconscious mind with the automatic programs. It takes more that just a conscious decision to bring that part in alignment with what the conscious part wants. It's been a very difficult & humbling journey to realize that I (the conscious me) doesn't really have much of any control, not unless I can get the 3/4th part (like the iceberg part that's underwater) to cooperate. I am determined to complete that "forgiveness", but that doesn't make the actions from that other party excusable. They are accountable for their decisions & actions. It may not be to me, but if nothing else than to their own judgments when they experience on death their own life review. I wouldn't want to be the receiver of Judy's life review with her judgments. I also feel it's important to share what we learned & observed from this as a way marker on the road, a "beware" sign so that others can make a choice based on looking at what came out of this experience for others. Yes, they may choose to go there & that's OK, but at least they can make a knowing choice. Well that's my 5 cents for now. Thanks for the posts & everyone's contributions to this thread. M.

I can't thank you all enough for all your input, stories and this healing site - tonight my room mate mentioned that i seemed different - not like I have been these last few months - "what way?" I ask - "you seem fiesty" he says - yyyyeeeeeeeeessssssssssssssssssssssssss - I'm back.

I went to the EFT site and got the downlaod - at work today i started tapping myself - it felt good and I started to feel calmer - I will continue this on a daily basis - thank you.

I also want to share what has also helped me - I got this off a site that lead me to all of you - it talks about always working daily with the energetic fields of compassion, understanding, appreciation, valor, forgiveness and humility. After reading each explanation i started to focus on the forgivness - I also do mirror work (everything we see outside of ourselves is actually a reflection of what is on the inside of us - what we acutally see is the ego) and after listening to the great Ramthbat, I saw that I had carried for a long time this horrible thing called a spiritual superiority complex, which is why I could see it in miss coco - terrible thing!!!! ugh!!!! to own it, is to dissolve it besides it is not one's true self but the ego self and any recognition of the ego is healing.

Here is what I found and am working with:

"Forgivness operates out of the construct that each of us is doing the best we can under the circumstance of our life experience and the degree that our love frequency saturates our human instrument. When a person operates from the heart virtues and the rich textures of its authentic frequencies, forgiveness is a natural state of acceptance.

When a perceived injustice enters our experience - no matter how significant or whether we perceive ourselves to be the cause or the effect - we may initially react with the sharp emotions of victimhood or annoyance (that was me) but this emotional clutter and distortion can be quickly transformed by experiencing............understanding....compassion...forgiveness...appreciation....This is the equation that transfroms the murky turbulence of victimhood or co-reaction into the crucible of light, leaving behind only the purest frequency of love stripped of all purpose.

Forgiveness is really the outward expression of understanding and compassion without the heavy sentiments of duality (ie.good and bad) that typically introduce the presence of judgement. It is a neutral expression without design or purpose other than to release yourself from the clutches of time, which is similar to energetic quicksand, entangling you energetically to a time based emotional state."

This I found really helped me forgive myself - I knew I had to forgive myself to be able to move forward and now i see everyone as special, not just the few - we are all special and I am more accepting of others and myself - I have learnt from the experience with RSE - to trust myself and not look outside of myself for anything, and also to look deeper at why I wanted to be part of the school - some things will take longer to figure out but I am willing.

I also agree we need to speak out and that the poison that RSE dishes out must someway be stopped - and I believe this website will accomplish that - consciousness and energy creates reality.

My remote view - I can still see this image of the great hall as it is called - empty and ghost like - i have never been to yelm but i can see it well. So be that!!!!!

I am only sharing the above information as it has helped me - it may help others or not - we share and we heal - you people have touched my heart and helped me get back on track and for that I thank you - perhaps this is the army that ramtha was talking about - the army with heart and compassion, with understanding, valor and appreciation.

Re: Marching
"energetic quicksand, entangling you energetically to a time based emotional state."

OHHHH that is such a wonderful statement!! Thank you for a superb post on this topic. I too, feel that we are the real army, or flock (growing our wings) and that eventually we'll see we are ALL part of the same plan.Thank you so much for sharing what has helped you.

With regard to this comment: "perhaps this is the army that ramtha was talking about - the army with heart and compassion, with understanding, valor and appreciation", I wondered the same thing. I have seen more 4th seal qualities from people posting on this website than in the "school".

There, they seem to pride themselves in a cut-throat attitude, "me, me, me" and as mentioned a bold spiritual superiority complex that will ridicule all other swine before them, to the point of acting cold-hearted toward HUMAN LIFE.

We may/may not ever know, but what I do know, is living life from the heart speaks for itself, and it's not happening with RSE.

Hi Marching,

I would like to start off by saying; I am of a similar mind as Joe when it comes to "mysstical beings" and new age "new speech".

March, please know that I do not mean to single you out or "rain on your parade". I am simply going to vent a bit re your quote.

""Forgiveness operates out of the construct that each of us is doing the best we can under the circumstance of our life experience and the degree that our love frequency saturates our human instrument. ...""


I do not know the context this was in but it smacks to me of New Age gobbildy **** and while it may sound all light and nice, to me it sounds authoritative, misleading and de humanizing.

To say that if one wants to "operate" with forgiveness requires building a world view that "each of us" (leveling everyone out) is doing the best "we"(we is a lot of people as a good friend of mine used to say) are able within "the circumstance of our life experience" is ludicrous. I know I have the capacity and can act on that capacity to forgive even when I am not "doing the best I can".

Then to add to that it goes on to say "..the degree that our love frequency saturates our human instrument...."

To me this is a disturbing statement. Think for a moment what it implies: first that there is a "..love frequency.." (Giving it some sort of pseudo scientific attribute). Second, "..our human instrument"

This is the beginning of the dehumanizing part, separating ones body and referring to it as an instrument.

In the Heaven's Gate group, where 39 committed suicide with the thought that they were leaving their "vehicles" or "containers" They could not have arrived at that point without first the acceptance that their bodies where a separate entity from "themselves"


From the Heaven's Gate web site:
www. wave.net/upg/gate/

"Whether Hale-Bopp has a "companion" or not is irrelevant from our perspective. However, its arrival is joyously very significant to us at "Heaven's Gate." The joy is that our Older Member in the Evolutionary Level Above Human (the "Kingdom of Heaven") has made it clear to us that Hale-Bopp's approach is the "marker" we've been waiting for -- the time for the arrival of the spacecraft from the Level Above Human to take us home to "Their World" -- in the literal Heavens. Our 22 years of classroom here on planet Earth is finally coming to conclusion -- "graduation" from the Human Evolutionary Level. We are happily prepared to leave "this world" and go with Ti's crew. "....


Back to your quote:

""When a perceived injustice enters our experience - no matter how significant or whether we perceive ourselves to be the cause or the effect - we may initially react with the sharp emotions...."

Duh...A lot of words to let one know the obvious.

"....of victimhood or annoyance..."

This is where it begins to get subtly tricky, it implies that those are the only 2 ways one might react towards an injustice, how about anger?, compassion (for the one upon the injustice has been acted upon), My point being that so far in the statement you quoted, if accepted, begins to limit ones understanding of complex feelings and states of being. While it may seem easy to understand, it does a dis-service in its view of human nature.


""(that was me) but this emotional clutter and distortion..."

Denigration of what would normally be ones emotions.


""...can be quickly transformed by experiencing............understanding....compassion...forgiveness...appreciation....""

I am sure you will find somewhere along the way that this person offers books seminars etc. to "transform" you from the denigrated state that they are leading you into.


"...This is the equation that transforms the murky turbulence of victimhood or co-reaction into the crucible of light, leaving behind only the purest frequency of love stripped of all purpose. ..."

I am trying to contain myself as I re-read this...

Now they have the audacity to build on what they had previously brought in. Now it is a "..murky turbulence of victimhood..." which will be transformed via the "equation", another reference to the science of mathematics to give what the author is saying a cloak of respectability.

It becomes transformed "... into the crucible of light...",(WHATEVER???) "...leaving behind only the purest frequency of love stripped of all purpose. ..."

You might as well replace the word purpose with reason.

"....Forgiveness is really the outward expression of understanding and compassion without the heavy sentiments of duality (ie.good and bad) that typically introduce the presence of judgement. ..."

There you go; forgiveness is actually the suspension of judgment. Puke! My judgment does not keep me from forgiving; in fact it is an integral part to my coming to be able to forgive. My action is to forgive; forgiveness is the state of being for the forgiven.

It is a neutral expression without design or purpose..." Again read reason.

"....other than to release yourself from the clutches of time, which is similar to energetic quicksand, entangling you energetically to a time based emotional state."

HUH??? Oh , so finally the conclusion is that one is in need of releasing themselves "...from the clutches of time,.."

Then one is given the visual of "...energetic quicksand, entangling you energetically to a time based emotional state. ..."

Pure cult speak if I ever heard it. I am with Joe about learning to eliminate "cult-speak", while difficult, it goes a long way to expanding ones knowledge and reactions to cult-like jargon.

Once one begins to accept the language and inferences put forward in the above quote they may come a lot closer to believing the following:

"A "student" or prospective "child" of a Member of the Level Above Human can, with the help of his Older Member(s) from that Kingdom Level, overcome or rise out of all human-mammalian behavior - sexuality and gender consciousness - and all other addictions and ties of the human kingdom. Older Members, as experienced "clinicians," are necessary to take souls through this "weaning" - this difficult "withdrawal" from humanness and binding "misinformation" concepts. The student must complete this change to the point of abhorring human behavior before his soul can become a "match" with a biological body of the true Kingdom of God - for that new, genderless body is designed to function at a far more refined level."

[Last Chance To Advance Beyond Human. Heavens Gate web site www.wave.net/upg/gate/lastchnc.htm]

Sorry for the length of the post but I felt a bit of dissection was in order

Journey Thank you for assisting me in moving thru something rather profound (for me).
After reading your post in response to marching I was startled by a memory of mine. I am going to share it because it feels important(for me)to do so.
My mother has a picture taken of me on my 1st birthday, she had hidden my birthday cake in the living room on a table just bearly high enough for me to see over. I was a tall child and I went looking for the cake (I guess :o) anyway I found it and stood on my tippy toes to stick my finger in it (for a taste?) and my mom was behind me with the camera, and "caught" this cute moment.
Whenever I see this picture, which isnt often (like 4 times in 50yrs.), I get sick inside, the photo is totally cute, Im smiling being silly, getting "caught". But it reminds me of another part of that day that wasn't so cute, for me.
My 2 cousins Frankie and Janet were there that day with their mom, my moms sister. We are all around
the same age, so I was 1 and they were 2 & 3.
My mom had taken me to the State Fair earlier that week and bought me a stuffed with saw-dust toy. I Love animals and this was this totally sweet monkey on a wood dowel with strings that you could move her hands and feet with. I was in love with it! Especially because you could move it around and stuff like that.I was probably playing with it when my cousins got to my "party".
Anyway, I remember I wanted to play with it and couldn't find it and was getting crabby, and scared. I remember looking and crying. I rememeber going over to the small space between the couch and the window, I remember seeing the saw dust on the carpet, I remember seeing the monkeys fur in pieces, strings broken, dowel cracked, I remember it like a still life. All taken apart and ruined, dead (as far as i was concerned). Frankie & Janet killed it.(My mom and I discussed this)
Once years and years later when I saw this picture and went thru the usual "memory" of this day, I realized that Frankie & Janet didnt have it too great at their house, I wont go into that but suffice to say I let something go at that point, and felt relief.
TODAY when this memory again washed over me I realized something else about it... I have spent alot of energy in my life, since I remembered that Frankie & Janet didnt have it so good, trying somehow to take 3 stuffed animals BACK to all of us on that day.So that we each could have one and no-one would feel all the various things we each went thru that day.
I feel like I am coming out the end of a tunnel!!! This is GREAT. Thank you both so much for providing this opportunity.
I dont have to put it in my pie!!!!!!!

PS Just because its in the kitchen doesnt mean I need to put it in my pie.

I should probably start a new thread on this...but...here goes.
Journey - you mentioned Heaven's Gate with the quote, and reference to the body as an instrument, etc.

I think back to Ramtha's teachings. He also taught us that our body is a "no thing". It is just a vehicle and we are the MIND that operates this body .There are students who won't even refer to themselves as human body owning folks. They call themselves Gods and refer to "the body". Not even "my body", just THE body.

I have wondered together in conversations with others about the end times of RSE. Ramtha has said, one day he will take us in with him. DEAD ?????

He has also said that he has taken all of his dead students with him to the 23rd universe. Yeah, prove it, hahaaha. Cheap words with no substantiation. Just faithful followers.

Students were also told (did this continue in 2006?) that they would toast to 200 years of life without death. Yet, they keep aging and dying. Even JZ is aging as we know, despite her fighting TIME with face lifts and the like.

I just don't have any specific point to make in this post. I'm just sharing my thoughts based on what you posted.

Whatcha

to journey,

don't worry "no one is going to rain on my parade" - what i listed above maybe new age googly wash but it helped me and that is all that counts - it may help others or it may not - i am not following any organisations, cult or any so called ascended being, channel or whatever right now in my path through life - I am only listneing to ME and what i listed above helped me alot despite all the new age lingo - what was even greater was that your disection and words didn't affect me at all - in the past i would have reacted defensivly, hurt etc. - yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhh - i'm back and will continue to do what works for me - i now know that all knowlege comes from within me and yes, as i travel on my path my inner guidance will guide me to read what i need to read at the moment and follow whatever discipline i will need until i no longer need it -

Happy Valentines day to all of you

you to...

Cool!

good for you, marchingon.

i think you have hit upon a critical point. you said that you take what works for you and move on, but that your primary attention is on where YOU are and how YOU feel about something.

while i do not intend the following comment to support/deny any religion, i just want to say that this is something i have thought about since i was a teenager; there are over 11,000 religions on this planet. all or most of them think they have "the" right path to god. some think they have the "only" path to god. yet, god is everywhere, or nowhere. (or i'm wrong, which is okay, too)

it is with that attitude that i attended rse. despite the coercion and demands that "ramtha" made upon students to be loyal ONLY to him, i was not. i've read the work of many of the major channelers, healers, etc, for years. i also went to several mainstream churches. here i am. none of them worked for me.

i found hypocrisy in the churches as the people acted catty and hierarchal in the same way that they did in rse, etc. ironically enough, it was in my dual membership (so to speak), in lazaris, rse, bashar, reading many, many of the CUT books, the old I Am teachings, Blavatsky, Cayce, a very few scientology books...i was SEARCHING and i intended to do that so that *I* learned. no brand loyalty.

Why did I do this ? Was I a stupid seeker who believed anything I was told ? No. But, as I gave consideration to what they had to offer, and applied the concepts (with some success; some failure), I realized that there really was a common thread that was throughout all of them, and again and again it all comes back to the omnipresence of God.

As with Carolyn Myss (this is being discussed on another thread, but I'm getting pressed for time as the kids awake and so does breakfast...), I got almost all of her materials for free. I read/listened to the content she had to offer for months. Then, I was done. I really liked what she had to offer. She also claims (and I have not verified) that she is a medical intuitive. That interests me, too. But, I don't get on airplanes and "follow her" anywhere at all. I have never sat in her audience and become a "follower", nor do I ever intend to do that with anyone. Been there; done that with RSE.

It's really about me and my relationship with God - and that's just my choice. I don't feel a need for any of those things anymore, nor do I miss them. I am deeply saddened that I was duped where I was along the way and that's why I intend to help others with my experiences, so they can avoid that same pain if possible. Or at least, know they aren't alone ! There really is life after RSE. A beautiful one.

Have to go.......

P.S. I am glad for everyone's posting with regard to various viewpoints (aligned with the intent of the board..you know what I mean).

Thanks so much Whatcha...
Although the details are different our stories are very much the same. For as long as I can rememeber I have been involved with (as in studying) various spiritual teachings. I have always been guided, easily and genatlly to whatever I need in the moment.
Never much interested in "organized" religion I have studied many of the (for me) long standing channelled works. Seth, Cayce, ACIM and Bartholomew for many years. I too never "followed" as in got on the bus to go "hang with" any of them, until Ramtha.
And once is enough for me in that regard too!
Currently I have found great comfort in the teachings of Abraham and am continuing working with ACIM, as always.
The bottom line has and always will be the teacher within and I learn the most from my puppies, my partner and being in my daily life.
Every "teaching" I've studied has brought me gifts that I continue to use, daily. Years ago, for about a year I worked in a large New Age bookstore and had a great opportunity to read and browse many of the available works. I too came to the happy realization that most all of them had beautiful strands of truth running thru them and each appealed to different people.So, as even with the Ram's work, I am not interested in throwing the "baby out with the bathwater" in regards to any body of work that I come across.
They're like old friends.
I agree its great to hear everyone's different perspective as to what works for them in "life after RSE".
Thanks again!