??

Nope. (glad to have that cleared up)

yep probably.

That Too! LOLOLOLOL

The main point that seems different from Ramtha and Mafu Channels... as compared to these others...

Both TheRam and Mafu encourage the student to MOVE to their community and devote your life to THAT WORK.

This is where personal lives are destroyed in the name of God.

You have to GIVE UP to GET...

I say, INCLUDE everything you love... don't destroy in the name of God... Give Life.

Elevale all around you. That would be a greater vision for me...

My humble opinion.

Smile.

I moved here from another state to attend RSE becasue it Seemed easier and cheaper to live here to attend events, rather than to travel. The relationship I left was in troubles anyway, and my partner didnt want to move here too [isnt it often the bread winner who chooses and the "spouse" who follows?]
I did leave our joint business, but both of us carried it on in another form.
I dont think anyone goes to any "school" by travelling to it just for classes, unless they are wealthy enough.
IM not exactly defending RSE, but again I hear this whining that Ramtha made you do it against your true will.
And I still say, if that was so, what a great lesson to learn...how to KNOW your own Will better!
Such is a similar case when an abusive marraige happens by the "victim" being "convinced" that the "love" of the abuser, is real, and the victim stays in it "becasue of the love".
Good Question this posts asks.
Many of us wonder if JZ gets "occupied" by who knows who, beside the nice Ramtha from the Old days.
Also, this area does no way help anyone to find an easy way to live here near the school.
And COMMON SENSE should tell us that MANY areas will be Safe in the days to come!
Why did many of us stay HERE because we were afraid we.d DIE if we moved anywhere else?
I still have Students tell me things like "Oh dont live THERE, theres not enough WATER"...[or whatever]
and I blame thier lack of oversight and genereal insecurity for how they think they have to even CARE about where I choose to Live!
So yes, I guess I am trying to lend to this Forum, a voice that says "TAKE RESPONSIBILITY" for allowing Ramtha and JZ to mess up your life!
AND yes I support everyone to leave after they "get" the teachings, because no one will graduate you but yourself..even from the schools that do give "Degrees" after a certain amount of time, learning and "good grades"...those things dont necessarily make a good professional, or an honest practioner

For the record (my record of course!) I specifically heard the "Ram" say on one of the cd's, may have been "The Outrageous Radical Few", DONT move here.
I did anyway, but that's beside the point, also now that I've been here long enough, I'm moving on.

interesting! no response from David M., Graced, Christie, and whatchamacallit. lol

All the above channels teaches the samething Ramtha teaches.

11:11,

You started an earlier thread titled….
“SLOWEST MARCH EVER!! LOL”
I ask you again… Why are you posting here?

AS for Kryon, Ashtar, Abraham teachings...
I have no direct knowledge of these “Channels”
I would advise… that you do your own research and
use critical thinking in the process...

And Yes I do understand that...
All is not Back and White…
Unless you are a Zebra..

chuckle..

David

When investigating the truth about any outrageous claims..
it may be helpful to consider…
The Big Lie...
Hitler wrote in his 1925 autobiography Mein Kampf (James Murphy translation, page 134):
All this was inspired by the principle - which is quite true in itself - that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes. ...

From Wikipedia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Lie

Thank you Joe Z.

to our dear 11:11
re: "All the above channels teaches the samething Ramtha teaches"

BUT NOT IN THE SAME WAY

You use a handle that suggests the gateway, the portal, the opening, the intergalactic passage...
how odd.

11:11

YOU are the one who uses the word "FRAUD".

why don't you explain yourself instead of deflecting toward those from whom you feel you haven't received sufficient response ?

Yeah.

I get a variety of 'devotional' emails daily. The following is from Sogyal Rinpoche's "Glimpse of the Day". It seems appropriate, to me, and relevant to the topic. It speaks, to me, from the heart essence of all true Sacred/Spiritual traditions/ways/paths/truth. From my heart I share it here:
January 23

It cannot be stressed too often that it is the truth of the teaching that is all-important, and never the personality of the teacher. This is why Buddha reminded us in the Four Reliances:

Rely on the message of the teacher, not on his personality;
Rely on the meaning, not just on the words;
Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one;
Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary, judgmental mind.

It is important to remember that the true teacher is the spokesman of the truth: its compassionate “wisdom display.” All the buddhas, masters, and prophets are the emanations of this truth, appearing in countless skillful, compassionate guises in order to guide us, through their teachings, back to our true nature.

At first, more important than finding the teacher is finding and following the truth of the teaching, for it is through making a connection with the truth of the teaching that you will discover your living connection with a master.

Who just so happens to reside in each of us.

Yeah !

Yeah!
And later this morning, in the course of doing my job, I saw the following -- Another universal framework through which to evaluate a teacher/master/intitiate'
from the heart essence of another Spiritual Tradition:
1 CORINTHIANS 13:1-13
1If I could speak in any language in heaven or on earth but didn't love others, I would only be making meaningless noise like a loud gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I knew all the mysteries of the future and knew everything about everything, but didn't love others, what good would I be? And if I had the gift of faith so that I could speak to a mountain and make it move, without love I would be no good to anybody. 3If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn't love others, I would be of no value whatsoever. 4Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud5or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged.6It is never glad about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circum-stance. 8Love will last forever, but prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will all disappear. 9Now we know only a little, and even the gift of prophecy reveals little! 10But when the end comes, these special gifts will all disappear. 11It's like this: When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child does. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. 12Now we see things imperfectly as in a poor mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God knows me now. 13There are three things that will endure—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love. (NLT)

Was it love that inspired JZ to allow the one person who had been her friend,servant,faithful employee for over 30 years to have an outpatient mastectomy; and to then humiliate she who had been in an authoritative position in front of an entire audience? If you had a few million dollars would you let your faithful friend have a f......g outpatient mastectomy?!!!? If so, you belong at Judy's place, and have not love.

Graced,

I assume you are referring to Vicki Cady ?

I do not know the details of the story you are referring to. Would you please elaborate ?

I do know that I have a tape or CD, where Vicki is in her last days. She is in the audience and withering in her last weeks or months of life and Ramtha goes OFF on her, telling her she's basically worthless and not going to be gifted with a healing by him. He said she deserved death. He didn't sound at ALL loving, but quite hateful and cruel, cold-hearted. I don't care what Vicki did that was so horrible (short of killing someone, of course), why did she deserve that ? I doubt she did. Especially not in a forum, a captive audience of many, many people. She was, in my opinion, verbally, mentally and emotionally raped and abused.

(eeeek....we're really off topic !!!!)

Watcha,
It would be such a service to those who are still asleep, or considering attending the "school," if you could transcribe at least that portion of the tape that you refer to, and post it on this site!

As my contribution to the discussion, I will mention now that years ago, I was working as a temp at a local hospital, processing emergency room reports, and I found myself holding a report on how V.C. was brought to the ER for an episode of severe depression. I never told anyone that until now.

As a response to the original thread. Who knows, really what part of any "teachings" are "fraud". Out of the above list, my partner and I find the teachings of Abraham to be completely uplifting in every way, and they came to us at a rather serious "juncture" when I had turned away from RSE, feeling as though I had been tricked, feeling shame for wanting so much...and shame for going to such extreme (quantum) lengths to come here and be with the "Masters".
I asked deeply in my heart for clarity, and it was given straightaway.

AND its rather nice to note that teachings such as:
Abraham via Esther & Jerry Hicks
and
Bartholomew via Mary Margaret Moore
Went on and have been going on quietly and with huge joyful success for 20+ years each.No-one's "hurting" from their experience with these profound witnesses for truth.
Although when Bart "left" in 1995, there was sadness for some of us.

onehandontheelephant,

thanks for sharing that about v.c.'s depression. how awful for her.

i will post, when i come across that information. but i have to get to it, first. i have a LOT of information, as do others. in good time.

dance,
i have also heard about the other teachings you mention. i have a close friend who listens to the abraham teachings. one point i do agree with is that the message is always positive and uplifting and RESPECTFUL toward all. it doesn't degenerate into any level of debasement.

but for me, i'm in a place where i don't want to "go there" with any channelers. just me, nothing against what you are saying at all. i just want to go within myself and follow my own guidance and trust that, without external anything. if god is truly within me, then that will bear itself out in my life. i believe that it does. i see it.

so much more to say and no time now !!! soon...

Mary Margaret Channeled "Bartholomew" for over 20 years. They had about 5 books, and did a monthly FREE event at the University of Albequerque, you could order a tape or transcript (monthly) for 5.00. I believe thatwas the price for the whole time they did this.They did do workshops and retreats and had at least one sailboat, The Bartholomew, to take a group of participants on once or twice a year.
The work still stands on its own and is still dear to my heart. Mary Margaret was always low-key and on her journey with the rest of us. The whole group that assisted in their "production" (of the workshops & materials)...John and Louisa Aiken, Joy Franklin, many others, all seemed impeccable. There was never any "stink" about any of it. No-one that I ever heard of had to go thru exit counseling, or deprogramming... and there was NEVER any for of debasement, humiliation, shame, never. MANY YEARS!!

i hear what you're saying. it seems that ultimately it all comes back to personal viewpoint based on experience or even not having any experience, but being affected in your viewpoint by other influences (religion, family, etc).

anyone can think any of these channelers is a fraud. perhaps they all are, or some of them, or none of them. i won't even get into my viewpoint on whom i think would fall into what category. just to say that on that issue, we just have to make choices about what has already been mentioned; by their fruits...

i know that my choice of having spent as much time in rse as i did, wasn't the best choice i've ever made in my life. for me, i don't even care if jz is a fraud. not that it's unimportant, but because just looking at what i have seen/heard with regard to rse, that stand alone as enough reason to run as far away from that place as i can !