Housekeeping: As is posted on the EMF Message Board page, this forum is for support, sharing opinions and experiences for those who have left RSE and have doubts and concerns about their tenure there. It is NOT a place for proselytizing for RSE, JZK Inc or Ramtha. Play nicely or your post will be sent to cyberspace time-out for all eternity. The disclaimer for EMF is located on this page http://enlightenmefree.com/disclaimer.html and all posters agree to the terms of the disclaimer. Be sure you've read it before posting.
You may also want to visit a complementary forum at FACTNet http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/779.html
If you wish to use a Spell Checker, you may wish to use this free one: http://www.jacuba.com/
Question given: EXPLAIN WHY YOU HAVE NOT CONTACTED THE BUSINESS
The Ramtha School of Enlightenment is notorious for not accommodating any viewpoint that is not in alignment with the presentation they give.
1. There is no department for customer/students complaints or concerns. There is no phone number or email listed to contact a representative directly for customer dissatisfaction. The emails on the website are for purchases of events (classes), products, or media.
2. Neither J.Z. Knight, the channel for Ramtha, nor Ramtha, the teacher can be contacted directly.
3. Letters directed to J.Z Knight do not generally appear to be answered. I have heard from a former student that inner circle staff censor the mail for J.Z. Knight and she only reads selected items. The former student has had contact with inner circle staff.
4. The JZ Knight/RSE organization does not appear to take any accountability at all for what Ramtha teaches, or presents to the student body. Some of that is extremely questionable.
5. The organization does not have any “Code of Practice” to ensure the rights of students to get value from what is offered.
6. There is no evaluation of long-term customer satisfaction and there appears to be no interest at all in investigating why enormous numbers of students no longer attend. (Currently there are 3,000 students. Tens of thousands have attended. ) It is in direct conflict with the short-term customer evaluation. (See example 1A.)
A variety of incidences do not indicate that a dissatisfied customer base will be accommodated at all.
7. A student I know of has been permanently expelled from this school for breaching supposed conditions of attendance without having a fair hearing, or the ability to present their case in a suitable fashion. There was also the threat of legal action against this person.
8. The organization is the only one of its kind. Students are fearful of being permanently, or temporarily, expelled or having the threat of legal action being taken against them for objecting to RSE/J.Z. Knight/ Ramtha for a variety of reasons.
9. Students have been forcibly removed from the premises for disagreeing with administrative procedure (see example 1C.)
10. Two teachers, appointed by Ramtha to teach Beginning classes, have been very harshly treated by the organization. Both were very dedicated students of more than 20 years duration. One was severely humiliated and her position in the organization terminated. The other has been dismissed with pending legal action. Both had been teaching for many years. Basically J.Z. Knight has copyrighted the teachings and no one else has the right to disseminate them. As I understand it this is the basis of the disagreement. The former teacher is also a public figurehead and after more than two decades of study he is not permitted to impart what he has learned. A former student with whom I have communication has direct contact with one of the teachers.
11. The administrators in RSE are just prone to telling any objectors that they create reality (the basis of the teachings is that you create everything in your life) and anything the organization does is a product of that person’s creation. In effect there is no accountability of the organization at all. Therefore to rectify your situation you must change your attitude. It never appears to occur to them that if a product/service is offered that there ought to be accountability for it. The “create your reality” attitude is a convenient excuse for taking no responsibility for what is offered by the organization.
12. There is a very aggressive marketing agenda despite the absence of long –term substantiation of the benefits of what is taught.
13. If someone has paid for a class (they call it an event) there are no refunds given, or transfers to another class, even if someone has a very good reason they cannot make it.
14. There have been a couple of incidences that I have heard about where an injured/ ill student is ignored by Ramtha. (See example 1B.)
15. The teacher, Ramtha, is the ultimate authority of the tuition. RSE staff and most current students accommodate what he says. The staff that cannot endure the things they witness end up leaving in disgust.
16. Ramtha has exhibited physical and emotional abuse of students and the student body in general accommodates this behaviour. He is regarded as an ascended, omnipotent being even though he never demonstrates what he teaches. Anyone challenging him is removed from the class.
17. The channel, J.Z Knight is the ultimate authority for the administration of the education.
18. FACTNet (Fight Against Coercive Tactics Network) appears to be the only place for public objection against this organization. Website…http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi. There are many student objections under the heading of Ramtha’s School of Enlightenment.
1A. This quote is taken from the Ramtha’s School of Enlightenment website. A survey is presented at the first event that students attend. The event usually last 8 days. Students have this assessment because they are given the theory of how they have created their life and how to reformulate it. Suddenly they understand how to get rid of all of those things they don’t want in their life and bring into their lives all of those unfulfilled dreams. Student numbers have been consistently around 2,500 to 3,500 over the years. These numbers do not reflect this assessment.
Since 1999, Ramtha’s School of Enlightenment (RSE) has presented over 50 Beginning Retreats to over 7,000 people in ten different countries. And in surveys taken over the past three years, 84% - 90% of the students reported that the Beginning Retreat was "the greatest week of their life, so far."
1B. A former student sent this to me. It refers to an incident that occurred when students are blindfolded and put into a labyrinth with 8-foot high walls. The ladders go over the walls and there can be 1000 people or more in the labyrinth at the same time.
Another example of complaints being ignored is the type when a student gets injured.
They created their reality excuse.
A student told me this story.
While in the tank she foolishly decided to jump from the top of a ladder, she was convinced she was would be safe, she broke her ankle and laid on the ground screaming in agony and calling for help, "Ramtha" shouted directly at her to shut up, there is nothing wrong with you he bellowed, all the while other students were falling over her.... and the RSE staff ignored her... eventually they realized she was seriously hurt and taken to hospital...
This is the next question: EXPLAIN YOUR COMPLAINT IN DETAIL....... PART 1
Explain Your Complaint in Detail
1. The “product” (education) offered by Ramtha’s School of Enlightenment does not work. The teaching offers classes in how to create one’s personal reality using the science of quantum physics as the basis for the theory of the teachings. This science, in relation to consciousness, is conjecture and is unproved.
2. This “education” has completely ruined my life.
3. I have no other legal avenue, as I am financially destitute.
4. The marketing agenda offers all sorts of metaphysical feats that can be accomplished in only 8 days and yet after 20 years of study there is almost no one that can accomplish any of these things on a consistent basis. Substantiation for the claims made by RSE is absent over a long-term period.
5. The Ramtha School of Enlightenement has many questionable business practices.
6. The teacher, Ramtha, has many questionable practices of what constitutes “enlightenment”.
7. The channel for Ramtha is a multimillionaire and a great number of students are financially destitute, very poor, or significantly drained of financial resources.
8. Ramtha has been very influential in an enormous number of marriage/family breakdowns and the consequent destruction of many lives.
9. Ramtha has enormous influence over the decisions students make as they see him as an omnipotent being with the ability to see the future. This has caused thousands to make very detrimental decisions in their lives. The organization has students in over 20 countries.
10. Ramtha never demonstrates what he teaches. He has put forth a desired level of preliminary achievement of the study…to attain the fourth level in consciousness. Since the inception of RSE in 1988 not one student has attained this including J.Z. Knight who is also regarded as Ramtha’s student.
I have had some assistance compiling this from other ex students. The incidences described in this document do not occur at every event (they have however occurred frequently) thus some students may be quite unaware that they have occurred at all over the history of RSE. I have included inserts from others as they have written these things from direct experience. The descriptions concur with information I have heard from other sources. One of the ex students is willing to assist in an investigation and substantiate what is written. Another prefers to remain anonymous but what she has written is posted on FACTNet and is available for public viewing. A few pieces are from personal communication.
David McCarthy is willing to assist any investigation. (CONTACT DETAILS SUPPLIED)
My Personal Circumstances
Prior to my involvement with RSE I lived on a farm in central Victoria (south eastern state of Australia). My ex -husband ran the farm with his father and brother. My parents-in –law, brother-in-law and my husband and I each owned one third of the operation.
The farm was a total of 3000 acres and ran 8 to 10,000 fine wool merino sheep, 400 head of Hereford cattle. A small amount of cropping was carried out annually mostly for stock feed.
The farm machinery such as shearing machines, tractors, headers, tools etc, was joint owned.
I assisted in the farm work throughout the day. I had an owner/classer wool-classing certificate. I also acquired a Certificate in Horticulture. I helped with the drenching of sheep, woolshed work, mustering, shearing, tagging and weighing animals, training my sheep dog, record keeping and general running of the farm.
I also grew our own food for a large part of the year (we were half an hour’s drive from the nearest store). I had a small nursery in order to revegetate the farm where it needed it and designed and planted shelterbelts for the farm animals and also the native animals that enjoyed them (koalas, wombats). It was a life I preferred though there were things in my life that needed rectification as there are with anyone’s life. I joined RSE. The primary motivation at the time was a back condition I had from falling off horses when I was younger. I was a top rider.
RSE offered the science to heal your own body. The only effective treatment for my condition was chiropractic but the treatment did not last. RSE teaches that their discipline called “Consciousness and Energy” changes your life. When you apply it and focus upon things you want in your life they come into being through the theoretical science presented. What you do not want in your life can also be eliminated from it by the same technique
Ramtha teaches that if the things you have focused upon do not come into being then you have an attitude that is preventing it and you have to change your attitude in order to get it.
Ramtha also teaches that one must conquer personal fear. Fear is not actually just an attitude that one has had but it is also a neuronet (a configuration of neurons) in the brain and by applying the variety of disciplines taught at the school it will change the configuration of neurons in the brain to permit the things you want to come into being. To change certain things can take many hours of effort. Theoretically it sounded plausible to me. I did not know any better at the time. The purpose of participation in the school is to “Create Personal Reality” for a better life.
My marriage broke up after being in the school for about 2 ½ years. My perspectives had changed. I was heavily influenced by what Ramtha taught. My ex-husband was not interested in the teachings. I made some very poor choices when our assets were divided as I was heavily influenced by the concept of “creating my own reality.” Financially I did not get anywhere near the assets/finances that I should have.
Ramtha teaches that “if you do what makes you happy you will never have a problem with gold (money) ever.” He also teaches that you can have fabulous wealth if you apply the disciplines and change your attitude so you give yourself the permission to get it. If you apply the disciplines you affect the quantum field and the wealth will come OUT OF THE UNKNOWN. A student should never try to figure out intellectually where the wealth is going to come from because then you deny yourself all unknown potentials.
Ramtha also teaches that you can heal any disease condition in your body by applying the disciplines taught. In fact some of the RSE advertising stated, “Every known disease condition has been healed by applying one of the disciplines taught.” I am not certain if it meant the discipline called Consciousness and Energy, or Blue Body healing.
I spent my money on learning at RSE because I believed their claims of consciousness and energy creating reality and I was confident that all the things I created were going to appear in my life. They did not. After my resources from my marriage settlement were depleted the only option I had for living was with my parents in the suburbs. My father had Parkinson’s disease. Living with someone in that condition is enormously stressful. He died a few years ago. My mother was in a constant state of stress whilst caring for him. He was put in a nursing home the last two years.
My mother’s home is only one suburban house block away from a very busy road with heavy industrial traffic. The other side of this road is zoned industrial and has been a constant source of noise pollution. Residential action has been taken against a metal recycling business. There is a high voltage electricity power line within half a kilometer. I have consistently called the police regarding noise nuisance complaints (usually someone’s excessively loud music). The air is polluted from the traffic. Heavy vehicles mostly use diesel fuel in this country, as it is less expensive. At present they are building a freeway half a kilometer away. There is a large amount of heavy industrial noise from this activity. This living environment is extremely stressful and conducive to poor health. I have investigated many avenues to try to move elsewhere but my financial circumstances prevent this.
My spinal condition did not heal and I could find little work. I had to go on unemployment benefits. I did find small amounts of part-time work to supplement the unemployment benefits from Centrelink, our Department of Social Security (they only terminate the payment if you have consistent income over a certain amount). Eventually I could not do that anymore and had to go on a Disability Pension.
I have a great amount of expertise in the fields of agriculture/horticulture, organic growing, wildlife and the environment. In this country there are very few job opportunities in these fields unless you own your own land and have the finances for the equipment and structures involved. Tertiary institutions are producing degree graduates and there are no available jobs for them. Jobs that are available (such as fruit picking or nursery assistant) are generally the lowest pay available. The employers also want full time, temporary labour and my body just cannot do this.
I have done a large amount of volunteer work. There is plenty of work available in conservation but no money to pay for the labour. My mother lives on a half-acre house block and I have been doing the gardening on it a large amount of the time, as I am physically capable of doing it. I have also helped others with nursery work/gardening. A person on a Disability Pension can work for up to 30 hours per week before the pension is terminated. This is to encourage people to get back into the work place. I cannot find any paid work where I am living for even a few hours per week. I have looked extensively. It would give me extra cash.
I tried an Internet business as the cash potential looked better and also a couple of multilevel marketing businesses. They did not produce any benefit other than to make it quite clear that I am not suited to this type of work and also that the advertised income benefits of the various businesses did not include the fine print. In the end I lost money because of my involvement with these ventures as most participants do.
In the years I did not attend RSE I practiced the disciplines taught at the school diligently, for a few hours per day, for many years. I considered that if I applied myself then my neurological configuration would change sufficiently to change my reality. It did not. I know other students who have practiced their disciplines for 4 to 9 hours per day for years and their realities have not changed either…. except for the worse.
It has been extremely depressing, isolating and stressful to live in the suburbs for me. The stress has aged my body and I have worse health than when I began at RSE. The environmental pollution is also conducive to poor health. Suburban living is totally unsuited to my character and work skills. I am uninterested in the activities of the local people. Centrelink payments are so low and the cost of living in Australia is becoming very high. A lot of goods are imported and the exchange rate is usually unfavourable. The cost of gas is around $5.50 per US gallon and going up and a cyclone wiped out 90% Australia’s banana crop some months ago. Bananas are now up to $18 per kilo…that is $1.80 for one banana. It is extremely difficult to live independently on these payments. My parent have been financially well off (though not rich) and have financially supplemented me on occasions. Thankfully they have supported me.
I re-attended a few events at the school last year. I had been absent for 10 years. My mother gave me a large gift of cash. The school changes one’s thinking and perspectives quite significantly and it can get very lonely for those living in a country the size of Australia with relatively few that have been, or are, involved. There was also a heavy promotional agenda of the school. Annually they brought the teachings to many countries on the World Tour, which began in the late 90’s. It looked like the organization was expanding and gaining respectability and thus I concluded that perhaps there was something I did not understand. Feedback from current students is usually, “the latest teachings are the most advanced and best ever” Ramtha also has an endless variety of reasons why the goods promised do not appear. His delivery can be quite convincing until you ask a lot of questions and do some research into some of his recommendations. His appointed teachers can also be quite convincing. They present the teachings as if it is a certainty that they work. If one witnesses the lives of huge numbers of long-term students …past and present it presents quite a different picture.
After my attendance last year I observed the lives of students in the local community and questioned those that had attended frequently over the time of my absence. I concluded that the concept that the teachings worked was just TALK. Not one person out of six regular students materialized anything of any significance after a major 10-day event.
Prior to RSE I had an occupation and lifestyle of my preference and a comfortable living. Now I am 49 years old and have to rely on government payments ($250 AUD per week). I have no car, no assets and very little available cash in the bank. I am not alone. There are many students in a similar financial position. Many still have the capacity to work. A great number in very low paid occupations but their bodies grow older and soon they will be on pensions just like I am. I personally know one other student (over 60 years of age) who has no other option than to live with her adult children. I heard of one other (in his 40’s) that was forced to return to live with his mother.
Part 2: EXPLAIN YOUR COMPLAINT IN DETAIL
Ramtha’s School of Enlightenment
J.Z. Knight, the channel for Ramtha, is a multimillionaire. She lives in a large mansion in Yelm that is very lavishly furnished. A huge amount of income comes from RSE. It is quite common for events to have 1000 participants or more. A recent event called an Assay had over 1300. The events lasting 8 to 10 days usually cost $1000 USD. The price has gone up recently. There are many events in the year. Two events per year are mandatory to attend to remain a current student and at the same level as your group. There are now events televised worldwide over the Internet. Facilitators in other countries are forwarded videos produced in Yelm. Many students live in the Yelm vicinity near the school. Others travel to and from Yelm and some attend in their own countries
In addition to the heavy marketing agenda in recent years students of the school produced a movie called “What the Bleep Do We Know”. Appointed teachers of the school and Ramtha were in the movie. The concept of the movie is about what Ramtha teaches. RSE did not finance the movie. One of its students did. The movie has been shown in many countries now and has had quite a marketing impact for RSE. I do not know if J.Z. Knight/Ramtha had a direct influence in the making of the movie.
What Ramtha teaches
Ramtha teaches that each individual creates their personal reality but that we have become limited and forgotten how to dream of bringing fabulous realities into being. He has stated that we have the capacity to live a life of fantastic realism. Some of the things he has stated that we have a potential to accomplish are: regrowing limbs; teleportation/bilocation; getting younger instead of older; living for 200 years without death; the ability of remote view (seeing an object at a remote location); sending and receiving (telepathy); seeing without eyes (the brain sees); lose weight; heal your body; materializing objects and blindfolded archery. Ramtha never demonstrates any of the above. He gives a theoretical dialogue and instructions. Students do accomplish some of these things. However the ability to do any of them on a consistent basis is almost non- existent. Some of the students (including the appointed teachers) have been attending very regularly for two decades and cannot do any of these things consistently. For many students
the things listed above are accomplished rarely. This is an excerpt from an ex student post on FACTnet.
It is taught that you can learn to heal yourself in 8 days at a beginning event. How does one explain, or justify to themselves the large numbers of people, long-term students, who have died of old age, cancer, or other diseases? Why didn't their sincere focus work? One man died during an event in the last couple of years. Why didn't someone else there heal him if he was unable to heal himself? Didn't anyone care? If they can't heal themselves in YEARS of "training" in doing the disciplines, then how is anyone going to do it in only 8 days? And if they did, why would they attribute that to the teachings? It probably would have happened, anyway.
Just wondering about these things.
One exception was one of the teachers who was expert at doing a discipline called Fieldwork and often called to demonstrate this particular discipline. This lady practiced a lot and was referred to as “Magic Number One”….a prize student who could accomplish. Last year she was accused of cheating by Ramtha and humiliated repeatedly in front of an audience. The student body was supposed to teleport an object out of a box. This lady was the only one who claimed she had accomplished it. Her teaching position was terminated and I hear she has moved out of state. She was a student for over 20 years. (Some people were listening to Ramtha many years prior to the formation of RSE. It was then called Ramtha Dialogues.) One would have to question why any educational organization would get rid of their primary example of achievement with a consistent record over many years. I would question if someone with this sort of track record actually did cheat.
Ramtha teaches brain science (his version of it) with some quantum physics to explain how the above things can be accomplished. He goes into quite some detail. The theory taught by Ramtha has components of ideas put forward by some scientists (mostly on the radical fringe) in this world. Most of it is far from proved and is not generally accepted by the scientific community. The addresses can be quite convincing if you do not know any better.
In the mid 80’s to early 90’s Ramtha predicted catastrophic earth changes and financial collapse of the economic system. He emphasized that the priority during all of these calamities was “to come and learn ”and if your families did not agree then to leave them. He also told people to store enough food for a two-year supply per person and tools that one could use if there was no electricity. A friend of mine bought enough for 24 people for two years. In the end it spoiled and most of it was thrown out. In more recent years Ramtha stated that people should store a ten year food supply. He also stated that people should buy gold to guard against the forthcoming economic collapse.
Here is a portion of a posting on FACTNet. I know that students have lost enormous amounts of money because of Ramtha’s recommendations. Ramtha has stated many times “I am not above or below anything in order to get you to understand that you are the creators of reality.” Students think that this sort of perpetual financial loss is some sort of lesson they need in order to get enlightened.
Unfortunately for some, they took the advice quite to heart and spent every bit of money they had buying up gold coins. I was told by another student (who is dead now), that I had about two weeks to buy the gold, or else.
People mortgaged their homes, maxed out charge cards, spent all their cash. Then, other people were more modest in their approach and bought SOME gold, but didn't spend all they had, or more than they had (charge cards), on it.
The catastrophic predictions resulted in enormous numbers of marriage breakups and broken families. Droves of people moved to the Yelm vicinity because of it. I know of distraught children that no longer had a mother. Some students burnt their bridges because of the predictions with no way back (the forecasts did not happen). After the early 90’s these types of predictions did not infiltrate the teachings to this degree.
The following is an excerpt of a FACTNet posting. I know it to be accurate.
I don't have to tell you how many families have broken up due to the teachings - the message. Students were told many times that this was an "alone journey" and anything in their path would be a hindrance; how one had to walk the path alone, etc. So sincere people believed that unless they were alone, they could not attain enlightenment. Stories of the Buddha and how HE LEFT HIS WIFE AND CHILDREN were told to students many times. Another "message" to leave one's family.
I am sincerely sorry for what you went through with your family. But, I also understand how trusting human beings, are coerced into leaving their families. Later, a number of them have had deep regrets.
Ramtha has stated many times that he will break up people’s marriages for the purpose of their evolution. Students assume he is an all-powerful being that can intervene in their lives. He has “married” couples in the arena (place where classes are held). He has even gone so far as this most recent incident that occurred in late July 2006 at a Beginner’s event that was broadcast world wide on the Internet.
The following is a description by someone who attended this event. My insert is in bold lettering. One would have to question what kind of organization would broadcast this WORLDWIDE.
Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 8:43 pm:
For another thing, what Ascended Master Teacher would sit in front of an audience, including children, and speak as he did about any student?
David is right about the VERY recent event whereby "Ramtha" repeatedly slugged (I understand this meant physically hitting the man) a male, married student, in front of his wife and child, because he admitted to having fantasized about a few other woman - one in particular. So, the "reward" for the wife, is that "Ramtha" is going to send the wife a lover (Ramtha is considered to have the power to intervene in a student’s life.). Ironically enough, the wife seemed pleased with this, and deserving of it. So, who was fantasizing???
"Ramtha" also called any women who fantasize, especially about him, effing **tches. Cute. Lots of children were in the audience. Nice way to raise kids. In my opinion, it's abusive, and for that reason alone should be shut down.
That school is so dysfunctional, it's mind bending. That people pay for the privilege of such mistreatment...I simply have no words to describe.
Financial impact on students
Many long-term dedicated students are living daily lives of financial stress. Many are in very menial, low-income occupations such as housecleaning and homecare. The Yelm area is not affluent. Many of the people who moved to the area no longer have their high-income occupations available to them. I know of students in Australia who are similarly affected because of involvement in RSE. It is a life of daily drudgery contrary to what the teachings are supposed to produce.
People with a higher income earning capacity are not thus affected. Students that are relatively new, or do not attend frequently, are not in this position. Many current students will still adhere to their conviction just how beautiful the teachings are. Even after 20 years of involvement. The reason for this is that they assume Ramtha is telling them the truth. Ramtha states things like, ’this is not a cult” and “the quantum field is not cashed out.” They view Ramtha as a supreme being that has knowledge far greater than they do and reason they must not understand something. There is constant verbal input from Ramtha to enforce the assumption that the teachings work in spite of an abundance of evidence to the contrary. Ramtha also emphasises that one “must not doubt” otherwise students prevent their materializations occurring.
I can personally think of around 20 people who are either financially destitute, or very poor because of involvement with RSE. By financially destitute I mean that they no longer have a home, very few assets and little money in the bank. I know a relative handful of people out of the thousands that have attended.
Most of them are in middle age to retiring and have no way of getting their funds back I know of someone who has spent their retirement funds and another that has spent their inheritance money. They, like I, assumed that what was presented was honest.
In additions many financial scams have depleted student funds. One of them was called Omega. It was recommended by Ramtha that students invest in this. I know someone who attended a class where this was recommended. They lost money their money. The creator of the Omega scam is now serving a prison sentence. It is quite obvious that it was never anything but a scam. Here are the words of an ex student.
However, that does not address the TEACHER telling people to invest in certain scams. In honesty, I must say that I have personally heard "him" support and encourage investing in several scams. Omega is another one and Sea Water is another one.
The teacher does not specifically recommend other scams that students invest in but students consider “it is their manifestation of fabulous wealth that is coming out of the unknown.” The latest scam in 2005 circulating the area was called PIPS. Many students put their money into it, including the poor, in the hope that this one would pay off. The originators were taken into custody in August 2005.
The truth is that most “manifestation “ of money comes from employment. If a student is in a high-income occupation their ability at “manifesting” is significantly better. If they live in a country with a better exchange rate relative to the US dollar their ability at manifesting is also better. I do not know of anyone who is significantly financially better off due to the teachings except J.Z. Knight.
Recently (June 30th to July 2nd, 2006) J.Z. Knight presented a Fabulous Wealth Retreat. The cost was about $700 for the three days. The advertising stated that J.Z. Knight “had her fabulous wealth and that she ‘created it.” She was going to teach others about how to get “the neuronet of fabulous wealth.” Ramtha has been teaching this concept since the beginning of the school. Everyone (except those who already are rich) wants lots of money. Huge amounts of effort have been put into “creating” this concept over the years. J.Z. Knight has been teaching on occasions recently instead of the usual presentations by Ramtha.
Many people in the world materialize realities like this and they do not spend enormous sums or put in a huge effort at “reconfiguring” their brains to get it.
PART 3: EXPLAIN YOUR COMPLAINT IN DETAIL
Questionable Business Practice at RSE
1. At present the Thurston County Fire Marshal’s Office is conducting an investigation of this business. The arena where the classes are held have a seating capacity of 999. I understand this is the maximum permissible under Fire Safety Regulations. The number of students accommodated in the arena for verbal presentations has regularly exceeded this number ever since I first attended in 1989. Other students have told me that as many as double that have been in the arena (also called The Great Hall). The RSE organization for most of its operating history has accommodated anyone who shows up and is willing to pay. Numbers have regularly exceeded 1000. It is actually stated on the RSE website that the arena accommodates 2000. I am fairly certain this is a breach of Fire Safety regulations as it is double the number for the seating allocation.
Some of the activities are held outdoors but verbal presentations are held in the arena. When they are given it is usual for anyone attending to be indoors. I understand other local officials are involved in this investigation also. Other information regarding illegal smoking and excessive alcohol consumption (described under Wine Ceremonies) has also been forwarded.
2. In February 2006 students belonging to the group called the Blue College were presented the latest version of “Conditions of Participation” document to sign. It was a mandatory event in order to remain a student in that group. Students come from all over the USA and many other countries. RSE has students in 26 countries. Students were presented with this document to sign at the RSE headquarters in Yelm without prior notification.
Someone coming from abroad is hardly likely to refuse to sign it if they have paid $2,500 for an airfare plus travelling expenses. It can cost up to this much coming from Australia.
If they object to the content they really have little choice but to sign. People take vacation from work to attend. If they want to attend the school they also have little choice but to sign as students have no input into the document at all and yet RSE is frequently presented as “our school” as though the administration is facilitating for the sole benefit of the student.
I would consider this method of presentation is most probably unlawful.
Some of the contents of this document I would suspect are against the US constitution that grants the right of free speech. I do not know enough about US law. By signing the document the student agrees to adhere to all of the conditions stated until 21 years after the death of J.Z. Knight. That alone would imply to me that the whole thing is unlawful and perhaps null and void. (See Attachment. A)
3. I do not consider that the school adheres to the conditions in bold type. I would conclude that the scenarios at the Wine Ceremonies/ Truth Teachings (see under this heading) do not fit into this definition and the RSE organization itself has marketing promotions during the course of its educational delivery.
3. At all its events, the School seeks to maintain a relaxed and dignified atmosphere, free from commercial and other distractions; therefore you agree not to make commercial or private/ personal solicitations of any kind at School events. This includes solicitations for any business in which you may be invo1ved outside of the School and so1icitatious for payment of your tuition at the School. Any student violating this condition will be asked to leave the event immediately without refund of tuition paid to the School for that event.
4.The arena at RSE where the classes are held is covered with an Astroturf floor covering. It used to be a horse-riding arena and was converted for student instruction. The floor covering needed replacing. RSE actually wanted students to donate money so the organization could afford to replace the carpet.
In 2005 I attended an event where they showed a video of the generous volunteers who put in the new carpet, including marking out 999 spaces and putting the numbers in. This is a multimillion-dollar organisation that seemingly cannot afford its running costs or furnishings.
Here is evidence. There is an Internet site for students called Masters Connection. This Google link refers to this site. The link is now no longer active as the carpet has been put in.
www.mastersconnection.com :: View topic - Project Carpet for RSE
www.mastersconnection.com :: View topic - Project Carpet for RSE There is a special account waiting for our donations. ... PROJECT NEW CARPET FOR RSE Ramtha has mentioned our ‘ dirty old carpet ’ . ...
www.mastersconnection.com/ phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=743& - 30k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages
5.RSE has a no refund, no transfer policy unless they are the ones to call off an event. They refuse to refund a person even if they have a good reason for not making it to the event. On some occasions they should have refunded students money and have elected not to. The following two excerpts are posted by Whatchamacallit on FACTNet.
a) I know a man who was a long time student, and had to miss certain events that he paid for in advance. He tried to get a refund due to his extenuating circumstances and was told, "No." I know another woman nearby me, who had the same thing happen.
I also remember years ago, when JZ had to cancel an event at the 11th hour, so to speak, due to a family situation with her mother. Students were not refunded. It was in the early 90's, I believe.
b) This reminds me of a previous post where I mentioned the January 2005 event in Yelm. It was advertised as an 8-day event that would feature "catch up" videos for the first 4 days, for the people who didn't attend the previous event (Legacy Follow-Up, I believe). Then, it stated on the website "phone message", that the 2nd 4 days would be Ramtha teaching live to advance the teachings. I believe this event was either $650, or $850. In any case, what was advertised is not what was delivered. JZ said she was shopping in New York City,(J.Z. has to be present to channel Ramtha) while students were on the field, for most of the event, for most of each day of the event, in the pouring rain. Rain like I have never seen there in almost 20 years. There was standing water on the field for the entire day, of at least an inch. Many people were wearing two layers of rain gear and they still got wet. Days were optional and some people just left for the day.
"Ramtha" never showed up. JZ was delayed due to weather, in returning home. Then, she was unable to channel.
No apology, not even the offer of a partial refund, and in fact, she spoke to students via the audio system, and said that as advanced students, they should not need the Ram, anyway; they should get out there and do their disciplines.
If a student fails to show up on time as they are supposed to, they are out of the school. She doesn't show up as ADVERTISED, and she still takes our money, and then blames us for wanting what she advertised in the first place. People had travelled from far distances to attend that event.
6. It is quite questionable where the enormous amount of income from student attendance goes. It was stated at an event I attended in 2005 that two of the five teachers appointed by Ramtha to teach the Beginning classes were not paid. I have heard from someone that was briefly employed that staff is not well paid. Over the years there has been little improvement in student facilities and they are in fact quite inadequate for the numbers attending on most occasions. J.Z. Knight has several businesses of which RSE is a subsidiary. She owns a large amount of real estate in the vicinity of Yelm unknown to most students. (See Attachment B.) I for one would like to know where all of the money goes.
The posting described below refers to an incident where the IRS was going to shut the school down. Seemingly J.Z. did not have the money to pay. The “grey men” is a term Ramtha has used to describe the international bankers. David McCarthy wrote the following.
Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 10:53 am
While we are on the subject of theft…
back in the days of imminent invasion of the reptilians, JZ Knight called an urgent event, the great hall was packed as we all waited for our great teacher to explain the nature of the emergency. JZ appeared looking very worried,
I have some terrible news she began, our beloved school is under attack, we are being forced to close down by the
“Grey Men” who see us as a great threat to their “One World Order” plan, They have falsified my IRS tax returns and are demanding that I pay them a fortune in unpaid taxes…JZ burst into tears. There is nothing I can do.. and she weeps.
We are stunned, how could this happen? We must find a way to fight back. Some Students are also crying…...there may be away out JZ croaks..If we can raise enough money to pay the IRS we may just save our beloved school, Yes Yes…we all shout..
..Millions of dollars were given to JZ to pay off the heinous greymen plot.
BUT it was all a LIE.
The real truth emerged just a few years ago,
JZ admitted LYING about the whole affair and offered to pay back the money.
TOO LATE JZ.
PART 4: EXPLAIN YOUR COMPLAINT IN DETAIL
Wine Ceremonies – “Education”
For quite a few years Ramtha gave presentations called “Truth Teachings.” I was absent during these years but I did hear about them from others and observed some of the effects amongst the students. I have also heard restricted CD recordings (available to some students) where the audience and Ramtha were very drunk.
During these years Ramtha recommended smoking pipe tobacco to benefit the neurological configuration of the brain and also the drinking of red wine for a similar purpose. A video presentation available to the public confirms this. The video series is called “The Two Paths” and was available from RSE. At times the smoke was so thick in the arena that it looked like a bushfire. I would consider it a health hazard. I heard recently that children were smoking pipes at these events right alongside the adults. Ramtha left it to the parents to decide if they should. I was unaware that in the USA it is unlawful for children to smoke if they are under 17 years of age. In Australia it is not the case. An ex student told me recently that he saw a three year old child smoking a pipe at the home of a student. The smoking, at events, suddenly stopped when J.Z. Knight was diagnosed with a lung condition.
The Truth Teachings were sort of like confession with copious quantities of red wine. Ramtha would single people out and expose their darkest secrets…things like adultery and ************ Children were present in the audience. He would address such issues for hours and the whole audience was under the influence of substance abuse.
I know someone who is still reeling from the emotional impact she received when Ramtha singled her out for exposure (this is years later). I have personally witnessed “advanced” students get inebriated regularly on huge quantities of red wine in their homes. They were quite aggressive and abusive. Students opened liquor stores in town and other existing stores stocked up. I have a friend that got a second DUI (she was a non drinker prior) and she is still attending AA classes two years later. It has cost her a fortune. Students at events have been told to monitor their partner’s glass (the person sitting next to them for purpose of discussion) to make sure they had the right size glass and that they drank what was stated. The amount was about three to four glasses. They were told they had to drink it.
Another friend attended one of theses classes. She was a non-drinker. Most of these “teachings” occurred at classes for advanced students. Recently however there was a Truth Teaching at a beginner’s event in July 2006. This is described in the post above. Apparently Ramtha and some of the students at this event were drunk.
Ramtha has also used foul language frequently at events for some years.
The following is a description I received from a friend who participated in a couple of Boktau events. A Boktau is a class that lasts for one month.
The students were so drunk from "wine ceremonies" that there were actually paedophile instances....drunken men who were caught attempting, or actually molesting children. It is unlikely that students, or staff ever called the police. Students are very "secretive" about the teachings and after all they have signed the gag order that they must no divulge what occurs at the events because it is "sacred".
There was a bonfire set up outside and "toasts" with red wine went on for a few hours. After it was over people got ill and started throwing up all over the place. They were endeavouring to stumble back to the arena. Later the arena was filled with the stench of vomit.
There were accidents....broken legs and other injuries and a couple of people ended up in the emergency room. Lots of people were up sick and crying all night.
One of the staff accidentally ran over someone with a pickup, or golf cart. They were using the pickup to carry those who could not make it back to the arena.
Children were not allowed at the wine ceremony then (it implies they were later...my comments). They were in the arena with one of Ramtha's appointed tutors. Then all the drunken people came back to the arena and the children saw all of that.
At later events when the pipe smoking began many young children had their own pipes at all events and smoked with the adults It was left to the parents to decide if their children should participate in the pipe smoking.
Supposedly the staff at the time was supposed to have their own separate wine ceremony and were not supposed to participate in the main one.
Here are some descriptions of attendance at Truth Teachings. The top three postings are from FACTNet. The writer uses the name Whatchamacallit. The last posting is from Google groups.
1. From what I've heard and some of what I've seen, the Wine Ceremonies would alternate between drinking wine, Ramtha teaching, and then reaching a point where everyone was so plastered, at which time the "teachings" became the "truth teachings" and "he" would start singling people out, in the audience, and saying all sorts of things about them, to them, or eliciting responses/confessions, from them. I'm talking PERSONAL things that would shame most people. Deeply personal sexual issues of all types; (rape, incest, masturbation, pedophilia, drugs, thievery, etc, etc).
2. I have heard many times, that the dancing/drinking led to many sexual interactions of all combinations of genders; babies were born; and someone I know, awoke from a drunken stupor to pain on their leg...because some "couple" was upon her leg, unaware, and guess what they were doing? This person awoke to see that and isn't over it yet. The person was unable to even speak about it for many months
3. Not long ago, I treated myself to an evening event in early December. Christmas with Ramtha. I was so excited as I have only attended VERY few of that particular event, having to travel across the country to attend only one evening event. That's an expensive event. It had been talked about by "Ramtha", and all students were encouraged to attend and be with The Ram for Christmas. I told the hubby I was going to go. I did. I was SO excited about a beautiful evening, in celebration of a sacred holiday.
"Ramtha" came out to the stage and did a fairly short talk and then started in with the Wine Ceremony (WC).
It went on almost ALL night long. I think it ended around 3 - 4 a.m...closer to 4. I sat down near the stage, by the wall, and observed far more than I needed to see.
My Christmas gift to myself gained me the following:
I witnessed people near me vomiting into bags.
I witnessed people, in drunken states, barely able to walk, trampling other's belongings, and stepping upon food (to eat when you drink your wine, you know !), and the food went flying up in the air and rained back down all over everyone's things. A full cup of wine went flying and rained on me. I look good in the color red. :::sigh:::
I witnessed a verbal conflict between a student and a staff person, that came very close to a physical fight. Threats were made.
I had a very, very large woman, fall upon me from her drunken stupor. I'm a little lady. She sang incoherent songs in my ear, for at least a half hour. I was silent. And stunned. She started an argument with staff, as she got up and approached the stage, where she was stopped since Ramtha was up there. This woman wanted to see him or talk to him. I don't recall the details any more.
I did drink SOME wine. I'm not a drinker. Never was, don't plan to ever be. Mostly, I sat in one position, with a full view of the entire arena, and I watched in disgust.
I saw dancing going on that was clearly what you would expect to find in a bar scene.
I went to the bathroom and was "hit on" by men, and by women. I ignored them.
I saw staff go running out the back doors, after suddenly coming to attention (they were drunk, too), and speaking to one another in their earpieces. Something was clearly going on that was not okay, outdoors. There was an urgency.
Ramtha had a few derogatory comments for some of the audience once everyone was drunk. Common Wine ceremony practice on his part.
1 a.m., 2 a.m., 3 a.m., people were walking out. The dancing went on and on and on. Frankly, I was bored and I am not prone to boredom. And disgusted. And disappointed.
I finally got up, went to my car, loaded up my things, and figured it's over. Then, I heard the music stop. I thought, well, I will just go back and see what the announcements are, because the event must be over now that the music has stopped.
I go back in and there is Ramtha on the stage ! "He" talked on and on about something.
Then, we were released.
I cried all the way home on and off in the airplane. I had to hide my face from anyone . You know how close together people sit in an airplane!!! I was ashamed that I had silent, hot tears running down my face, but I couldn't stop them. My pain and disappointment from that disgusting event, that had NOTHING whatsoever to do with CHRISTMAS, overcame me.
For this, I traveled across the country, for a CELEBRATION of a major holiday?
Merry Christmas. Or something like that.
4. This is the only writer I do not have personal communication with. It supports other information.
From: Greg Barber - view profile
Date: Tues, Feb 24 1998 12:00 am
Ramtha and Ramtha's School of Enlightenment - their biggest secret
The "wine ceremony".
Anyone interested in pursuing Ramtha's teaching should be aware you will
be asked to participate in a "wine ceremony", before you move to the
advanced group. This ceremony involves downing a bottle of wine and
"dropping your veils" presumably for some kind of emotional cleansing.
Ramtha will drink from 3 to 4 bottles himself during a ceremony. Poor
JZ!! Is she channeling or is she possessed? A lot of people puke their
guts out. Lots of hangovers down at the Ranch these days. Do not go to
this school if you have a problem with substance abuse. Ramtha will
tell you to drink wine, because it opens up your brain. This is
This debauchery is bizarre in the extreme, and places all of Ramtha's
teaching in question. The fact that these wine ceremonies are _very_
frequent and secret(sacred?), is the absolute truth.
So now you know!
I attended this school for 3 years and left for the above reason. If
anyone else has left this school for a similar reason I would be
interested in your story.
This is the next question on the Attorney General's Submission.
WHAT DO YOU THINK THE BUSINESS SHOULD DO TO RESOLVE YOUR COMPLAINT?
1. I think the business should refund all of my costs associated with the study including tuition, airfares and expenses, books, audio and music tapes/CD’s related to study and other items necessary for attendance.
2. I also think I should be compensated for the loss of my property. My marriage would not have broken up were it not for my involvement in RSE. I certainly would never have made the poor decisions I made were it not for the influence of this organization.
3. I also think I should get compensation for loss of income and work opportunities since 1992 as well as financial compensation and damages for the stress of living in poverty in a polluted environment totally unsuited to my character and work skills and the consequent decline in health because of it.
· Ramtha Dialogue Sydney Australia 1988 Approx. cost with air travel - $800 AUD
· Beginning Consciousness and Energy class (weekend), Advanced Event and Beginner’s Retreat at Estes Park, Colorado. Feb. –April 1989 Approx. total cost including air travel $7000 AUD
· Beginning Consciousness and Energy workshop Sydney Australia 1990 (I think) Approx. cost $800 AUD
· Required retreats in February for Primary Group 1990 to 1994 5@ $1000USD = $5000 USD
· Required Follow Ups for Primary Group 1989 to 1994 6 @ $300 USD = $1,800 USD.
· Assays 1989 to 1994 plus one in 2005. I think I attended a total of 5 (perhaps 6) @ $1000 = $5000 USD
· Dimensional Mind I think I attended 3 (perhaps four) They were after the required follow ups in November 3 @ $600USD = $1,800
· Evenings 3 in 2005 and a few in the earlier years (cannot remember exact numbers) 6 @ $50 USD 6@ $50 USD = $300 USD
Events total AUD =$8,600
Events total USD = $13,900 converted approximately $19,200 AUD
Air fares: 12 return flights at $1550 average = $21,700 AUD
Accommodation and items for study including books that are recommended reading; tapes/CD’s of teachings; music tapes/CD’s; videos and items need for events (such as rainwear, mats etc.) Estimate: $10,500
Total estimated cost = $60,000 AUD
There may be some events I have missed out in the above assessment. As I understand it the records are kept at the RSE headquarters. RSE administration told me in 2005 that I had not been current since 1994. So I conclude they must have accurate records. I have also lost money for paying for an event in Sydney that was cancelled. My money was refunded after 6 weeks (I heard some people were never refunded) and in the meantime the exchange rate differed and I never got back what I paid. This is not included in the above estimate. A Beginning Retreat I attended in January 2005 is also not included in the above as the money for attendance was a gift. Accommodation was mostly with friends so I did not have enormous costs.
The amounts spent above on this school are quite commonplace. There are students that have attended far more regularly than I have. I know someone from Australia who flew to Yelm over 30 times for events. Australian and New Zealand students can spend up to double the amount on everything because of the exchange rate. I purchased a book from RSE headquarters that cost $8 USD. The cost for me after currency conversion, packaging and shipping was $36 AUD.
My marriage would not have broken up if it were not for the involvement in the school. I was married for a total of 9 years and my husband and I never argued and had similar perspectives on a preferred lifestyle and farming practices that were more environmentally favourable.
RSE changes one’s perspective greatly. My ex husband was not interested in Ramtha’s teachings. I was under the illusion that they worked. Thus we parted ways in our thinking processes. Under Australian law I was entitled to half of all assets.
The next two paragraphs are not in the submission presented but are information to the reader.
Personal financial details excluded from this post. To summarize I took a relative pittance of what I was lawfully entitled to because I was influenced into thinking that Fabulous Wealth was just around the next corner. I was also influenced by my peers "to let it go".....after all we create the material world so in light of this it really does not matter.
The whole separation of my marriage occurred at the time the sky was going to fall tomorrow, undergrounds were being dug with bare hands, getting to school and learning the sacred knowledge was paramount over everything else and most of those Downunder were faced with a choice of not having access to the teachings (there was no regular intent to come to Australia at all at the time) or moving to Yelm as most could not afford the airfares. Tremendously stressful to put that kind of pressure onto people.
My portion of property and assets would probably now be worth $2,000,000 AUD.
I would never have permitted this type of agreement if it were not for Ramtha’s teachings. He was forthright in teaching us that by doing our disciplines we formulate the material world. I thought this was preferable to the normal legal haggling after a divorce. Ramtha constantly undermines a student’s objective thinking by his presentations. There is also heavy peer pressure to conform to the teachings….or the perceived notion of it. My ex husband also took full advantage of my “education” and profited very well from it. By the time I realised that this teaching did not appear to be working for anyone financially it was too late to do anything about it legally.
I am not the only one who has made such an ignorant decision. I personally know of three other students who have made like decisions when their marriages broke up. I know the positions of two of them at present. They are similar to my own. Others have made different types of catastrophic financial choices. They include selling cars and assets to attend events, mortgaging homes in order to invest in the latest money making scam and also giving away money to other students for a variety of reasons (oftentimes to get to an event) and eventually ending up very poor. The underlying reason that so many are making such seemingly unbelievable decisions is that they are taught that by applying the teachings they formulate the material world.
The witnessing of successfully accomplishing exercises such as sending and receiving and remote view enforce the concept that what is taught works. It is observed that people do accomplish these things though inconsistently. The observances influence students to continue to attend classes when the substantiation is absent in their daily lives.
Ramtha has a very influential impact on the student body. The audience in general enjoys his humour and character. His tuition and inappropriate influence have caused many to make very poor and detrimental choices in their lives.
Here is an attachment forwarded with the objection.
It lists the properties owned by JZ Knight in Thurston County.
2005 Thurston County Assessor List of 7,301 property owners J to Kyzer and the assessed value of their property
PARCEL_NO OWNER_NAME TOTAL_VALU ANNUAL_TAX TOTAL_ACRE YEAR_BUILT ADDRESS1 CITY
75200100000 KNIGHT, J Z 176850 2432.99 5 1959 PO BOX 1210 YELM
75200100100 KNIGHT, J Z 64750 890.79 5 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
75200200000 KNIGHT, J Z 102950 1416.32 1.25 1930 PO BOX 1210 YELM
75200200200 KNIGHT, J Z 39900 548.92 1.19 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
75200200201 KNIGHT, J Z 44350 610.14 1.25 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
75200200202 KNIGHT, J Z 44350 610.14 1.22 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
75200200203 KNIGHT, J Z 44350 610.14 1.22 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
75200200300 KNIGHT, J Z 44350 610.14 1.19 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
75200200400 KNIGHT, J Z 44350 610.14 1.19 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
75200200500 KNIGHT, J Z 44350 610.14 1.25 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
64400800700 KNIGHT, J Z 77450 1036.15 0.28 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
64400800500 KNIGHT, J Z 76000 1016.75 0.28 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
64400800400 KNIGHT, J Z 51400 687.64 0.14 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
21714310200 KNIGHT, J Z 102100 1404.63 20 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
21714430400 KNIGHT, J Z 71950 900.13 5 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
21714430300 KNIGHT, J Z 71950 900.13 5 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
21714430100 KNIGHT, J Z 1530600 21057.1 40 1947 14507 YELM HWY SE YELM
21714430200 KNIGHT, J Z 71950 900.13 5 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
21714440600 KNIGHT, J Z 71900 899.5 4.99 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
21714340300 KNIGHT, J Z 68900 861.98 9.55 0 14507 YELM HWY SE YELM
21714430000 KNIGHT, J Z 71950 900.13 5 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
21714440500 KNIGHT, J Z 71900 899.5 4.99 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
21713330102 KNIGHT, J Z 41900 576.44 2 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
21713330401 KNIGHT, J Z 127300 1751.32 3.98 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
21713330500 KNIGHT, J Z 209700 2884.93 1.83 1968 PO BOX 1210 YELM
21713330300 KNIGHT, J Z 2143300 29486.27 9.11 1986 14507 YELM HWY SE YELM
21713330101 KNIGHT, J Z 41900 576.44 2 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
21713320501 KNIGHT, J Z 9200 126.57 0.18 0 14507 YELM HWY SE YELM
21713330103 KNIGHT, J Z 41900 576.44 2.03 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
21713330404 KNIGHT, J Z 117100 1566.59 0.83 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
21713330403 KNIGHT, J Z 141200
21713330402 KNIGHT, JUDITH D 94800 1304.21 1 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
21713330407 KNIGHT, JUDITH D 88100 1212.03 1 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM
21713330406 KNIGHT, JUDITH D 94000 1293.19 2 0 PO BOX 1210 YELM