Alvin Lee Message & Discussion Board
The imagery used in this poem by "Shakespeare" is clearly about a woman playing hard to get, which often has very little to do with sexually "teasing" a man who's an established lover "for fun", and much to do with seriously wishing to make clear in a mutual new attraction that she's not too easy, can't be won too quickly, expects to be respected, and isn't going to fall like a witless ninny at any man's feet. The number of old folk songs and popular sayings to do with the notorious fickleness of men in general (yeah, yeah, guys, I know, it's Nature's Programming, but still...) make it clear why many women, especially in old-fashioned days where there was such great shame and very likely economic vulnerability attached to being an "unwed" mother, ended up adopting such a proud strategy when wooed. (BTW, I put "Shakespeare" in quotes because I have long agreed with the position taken by increasing numbers of scholars, as appears in books such as Charles Beauclerk's *Shakespeare's Lost Kingdom* and in the recent major movie "Anonymous", that the real Bard of Bards was actually Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford, a highly-educated multi-talent of the day, fluent in several languages. He was the probable "b@st@rd" son of Elizabeth I by Lord Thomas Seymour while in her mid-teens, who was raised in the peerage and later came to write behind the public front of the little-educated, barely literate actor and erstwhile grain merchant from Stratford-upon Avon. Whew and what ho. Fascinating stuff, forsooth, and one of my pet intellectual causes to champion, admittedly.) But to each her own loveplay style and poetry interps. Robin, I think I probably understand you pretty well much of the time, considering the inherent limitations of communicating online in a message board format with people most of whom one has never met. At least, before your recent birthday and wedding trip, you praised me for my understanding and communicating. I thought we were becoming friends, so in light of that I didn't and still don't see why you would bring up women picking fights for make-up sex, even anticipate my "taking umbrage" at that, directly after I'd confided painful accounts of being an assault victim. It was the timing and placement of what you wrote, not whether you comment on every post as a rule. If *you'd* just confided something of that nature here, I would feel that sensitivity dictate a comment from me, since we normally do reply to each other's posts. I would feel a natural sympathy moving me to do so, in any case. OK, so goody and whoop-de-do for me. Whatever. I don't care if you flirt the day away in here if you feel like it. When I've a mind, I can banter and flirt with the best, believe me. No secret about that around here. Again, it was just the timing of your suddenly flirting with the "adorable" guy who'd just expressed overt sympathy for me, as you didn't. It did seem you were on some level trying to capture his attention away from me. Though I think Sixy is quite capable of paying attention to us both, and more besides, ha. Your "behavior" in this seemed in the moment like the kind of undermining female game-playing I just can't stand. I should probably not have been so direct with you over it in front of the rest of the board, however, and I regretted doing so later. It's great if you've counseled battered women, but I know nothing about you in that context. On the board you've given the impression that you have a sexual appreciation for the idea of being overpowered by bad boys who like guns as well as fast cars and motorcycles, which is why I did think you might enjoy playing the submissive who defends those bad boys, rather than the women they've abused. Cont. soon...
"For through his mane and tail the high wind sings,
Fanning the hairs, who wave like feather’d wings.
He looks upon his love, and neighs unto her;
She answers him as if she knew his mind;
Being proud, as females are, to see him woo her,
She puts on outward strangeness, seems unkind,
Spurns at his love and scorns the heat he feels,
Beating his kind embracements with her heels.
Then, like a melancholy malcontent,
He vails his tail that, like a falling plume
Cool shadow to his melting buttock lent:
He stamps, and bites the poor flies in his fume.
His love, perceiving how he is enrag’d,
Grew kinder, and his fury was assuag’d.
His testy master goeth about to take him;
When lo! the unback’d breeder, full of fear,
Jealous of catching, swiftly doth forsake him,
With her the horse, and left Adonis there.
As they were mad, unto the wood they hie them,
Out-stripping crows that strive to over-fly them."
Laurie, since Toni deleted my post to you in which I stated that I will never again explain myself, defend myself, or justify myself to you, I am not going to hold myself to that statement.
Regarding your above comments -- I merely complimented Ronnie, in my often overly exuberant way, for the very sweet message of support he sent to you. You chose to interpret it as my vying for his attention. The thought never entered my mind, and the fact that you felt the need to call me out for something that was in your own imagination tells me that you and I are on completely different wavelengths.
I respectfully conclude that since you interpret most of my posts in ways that have nothing to do with who I am as a person, I am no longer going to respond to any of your messages to me. I will give you the same respect by refraining from commenting on your posts, or commenting on the posts of other board members when they are communicating with you. Peace
Robin, you can reply or not as you like, but I didn't realize there was a post from you that Toni deleted-- apparently she removed it before I had a chance to see it. Since she rarely deletes anything, that really makes me wonder about its contents! My initial reaction to your comment about picking fights for make-up sex, as you responded to my confiding about having been the victim of physical assault, was about *me*, not you. I didn't "choose" to interpret anything about you or what you wrote in a negative light. There was no malice aforethought, or any malice at all-- it was a quick, honest reaction of simple hurt feelings. I was put off and actually a bit stunned by what struck me as real insensitivity on your part at the time. It's my nature to be forthright in sorting something out-- it's my Danish from my Great-Grandpa Laurids-- and so I was. I'm not one for never straying beyond easy, comfy-cozy chit-chat, I admit. Yet after all this, even after *I* apologized to *you* for being so direct with you in front of the board by posting my hurt feelings when I was in an already frazzled, sleep-deprived state, you *still* apparently don't care to see the incident in light of that, my injury, and the vulnerable PTSD space you might have realized I was coming from as I wrote. You might have said you were sorry about the assaults or my injuries, and never did. You still haven't. You've also done a complete, sudden reversal on me by withdrawing your previous praise of my understanding of you and communicating with you. OK, fine. I guess I don't really wanna play dollies with you any more either. The thing is, alot of why I suggested a truce and do-over was for the sake of the rest of the board. They can read these specific posts or not as they choose, depending on their stomach for conflict resolution, but over an extended period of time, seeing our respective posts ignoring each other on an ongoing basis, it's going to be very noticeable and uncomfortable for them knowing there's a frigid, rigid distance between us. I can't understand wanting to maintain such a hard, stony barrier, myself. Life is short and people are human. I'm also thinking about Alvin, whose board this is. He's not a mincer of words, either, but he's a real believer in peace as an ideal and goal. If there's anything I'm aware Alvin can't stand, it's a fuss or a senseless squabble. So pardon my native directness again, but what's the point of wishing me "Peace" at the end of your current post if you're not willing to engage in it or work toward it with me? Peace takes real effort. You know that. I'm trying to make it. I hope sooner or later you will too.
Laurie, since Toni deleted my post to you in which I stated that I will never again explain myself, defend myself, or justify myself to you, I am not going to hold myself to that statement.
Regarding your above comments -- I merely complimented Ronnie, in my often overly exuberant way, for the very sweet message of support he sent to you. You chose to interpret it as my vying for his attention. The thought never entered my mind, and the fact that you felt the need to call me out for something that was in your own imagination tells me that you and I are on completely different wavelengths.
I respectfully conclude that since you interpret most of my posts in ways that have nothing to do with who I am as a person, I am no longer going to respond to any of your messages to me. I will give you the same respect by refraining from commenting on your posts, or commenting on the posts of other board members when they are communicating with you. Peace