Robin, Laurie, DLM....
I was about to write encouraging all of you, but then I read Borje's post - and he said it all much better than I ever could have.
Thank you all for being part of this Board.
I think Lorraine looks just fine in the first pic. I'm sure no one in this thread meant her any disrespect, but-- is it just me, or does she deserve better than to be referred to as "the Roly-Poly Chick" and have her appearance and photos critiqued on here in several posts? Maybe I'm the only one rubbed the wrong way by it-- I'm grieving for my mom pretty heavily today, so maybe that's colored my reaction--but it's what I honestly feel, so what the Holy Hel, I'll share it for whatever it's worth. Now, I understand the word "chick" was rampant in the hippie community, and I just let it roll off me back then, but because of the flip and objectifying vibe many guys give it, frankly, many of us mature women have heard it just a few zillion times too many. Just to clue some of you guys in. And-- so much for not discussing Alvin's personal life on the board, guys, as Toni and I told Robin the other day we don't do! Yeah, yeah, stuff's out there, and Alvin's a public persona and all, and brief references are one thing, but let's not get TOO carried away. ;-)
Hi Laurie, Sorry you are suffering. I think grief for our loved ones is a tribute to them.
I made a small little joke about the girl sitting next to Alvin in a picture which was more of a burn on myself than the object of my comment. I also made a few remarks which I consider to be a tribute to the beauty of the girl. And finally, I made a comment that I do not think looks are important.
OK, enough self-serving defense from me.
Where I come from, Los Angeles, the term "chick" was in use long before hippies came along. The Beats used it freely as well. It was only when women started to be vocal about not wanting to be called "broad", "chick" "girl" that we learned it was considered to be offensive to many women.
Personally, I like to be called "Baby".
Laurie, I was not expressing curiosity. I was merely making what I consider to be a positive comment about the man.
I have zero curiosity about Alvin's personal life. I was filled with curiosity when I rediscovered him last month, but I have already learned all I wanted to know: He is a great guy.
Hey Robin! :-) I wasn't bothered by anything you specifically wrote about Lorraine, and yes, I noticed your comment about looks ultimately not being most important. (Though of course they normally are important in attraction, and to each his or her own in that regard.) I still think L looks perfectly fine in the first pic, which I personally find the more interesting photo, but that's just me. Anyway, admittedly my discomfort was from the overall slightly extended critiquing of her appearance in the thread with frequent usage by the guys of the objectifying, trivializing word "chick", and the joking comparison of her with Chick Churchill, though I understand that was just a bit of clever wordplay our dear Don found too hard to resist, so it's scarcely an earthshaking matter. I admitted I was in a grieving mood, and tried to show myself open to other perspectives, but I'm feeling better and less rubbed the wrong way about the whole thing today. My opinions on controversial or touchy subjects are meant to be thought-provoking, and I see no way to do that without being frank in a manner that sometimes stretches comfort zones. I don't think it hurts guys to learn what words many women find offensive. I've noticed many guys have a lot more trouble taking simple criticism or forthrightness or instruction of any kind from a woman than from a man. That's something I'm just not inclined to cater to. We're all big boys and girls here. So... we can hang in there and get past our misunderstandings and discomforts and learn some things from each other, if we ever want to discuss meaningful subjects and not just chit-chat or shoot the breeze, right? Though those can be fun and worthwhile too.
Hi again, Robin. "Chick" was definitely pre-hippie and has pretty much been around for ages in ALL parts of the country. Even Iowa had movie theatres, newspapers, and popular books and records back in the day. ;-) Beatniks and hippies, too! Though I'm half-New Yorker, so I've always been lucky to get in on the hotline from the REAL Center of the Universe!!! ;-) ;-) ;-)
Hi Laurie, I hope you are feeling better today.
As an idiot young teenager in the Sixties I thought the world revolved around my radio station, KRLA. I thought that was the source of everything cool in life. I knew my favorite musicians came other parts of our country (Motown) and another country altogether but it just didn't compute.
I would love to be a New Yorker. Both my sons live in Manhattan. One lives at the top and one lives at the bottom. But, the cold... I cannot take temperatures below 50 degrees F.
I apartment/dog sit every August, which is my favorite month on the East Coast. My son and his wife take the month to travel in Europe, where she is from. I love the humidity. The hotter the better.
Laurie, In follow-up to my thoughts re the use of offensive words:
I have had my head bitten off for saying Latino rather than Hispanic and for saying Hispanic rather than Latino. My Hispanic/Latino friends tell me it is the same for them.
I have had my head bitten off for saying Black rather than African-American and vice-versa.
I understand the sensitivities.
Laurie, You are a Sweetheart!
I might as well say right now and get it over with that I have had very traumatic experiences with men. The Big Three all happened to me:
1. my father (I won't go into details)
2. my first sexual experience: Date rape. I cried and begged him to stop but he got angry and told me I was "ruining it" for him.
3. more than one boss who thought he could put his hands on me.
I have as much reason as any woman to think men are monsters. But I don't. I think the men who hurt me are the monsters.
OK... that is my TMI for the day.
Time to turn on the music and immerse myself into my fantasy world with Alvin Lee.
EDIT: I neglected to say that my mother hurt me more than all the rest combined. I have a fear of both men and women, but I try to rise above it. I am open and loving but very, very, very careful.
I've watched this sad thread for a while. I do hope Dale cools down. He's been a valuable stalwart of this board since I joined it. My secret trick for when I get wound up by somebody/something is to shout BOLLXXXX! and get on with it.
Laurie, you post away girl but pleeeeease give this feminist militant front thing a rest. I can really do without the "all men are beasts" stuff. As a personal aside, I believe brevity is a talent - check out Oscar Wilde for one.
Lastly, I was there in the Sixties, when the world did change for a while. It was all "do what you want to do, go where you're going to". I'm pretty sure Alvin still lives his life that way. Not so easy for us ordinary mortals but we'll live longer if we stay cool - and that's from the board's resident Mr Grumpy!
Les, I almost posted late last night that I thought this whole thread was getting to seem a bit like a "Twilight Zone" episode, and that I have NO desire to fight the Battle of the Sexes on the Alvin Lee Message Board, but I dozed off with part of a post on my phone screen in my hand. I woke up and decided to scrap it and see what may have been posted here in the meantime before writing further. I was feeling encouraged by what Borje and Toni wrote until I read your post. "...give this feminist militant front thing a rest", my size 11 foot! I shared some feelings honestly as a woman about the word "chick", since this board isn't a men's locker-room, but mixed company, and I don't think it really hurts guys one bit to know when a woman isn't comfortable with certain usages. I didn't issue anyone an edict about what they "can" or "cannot" say, here or anywhere-- I expressed *my opinion*. I worded myself reasonably, if a mite touchily, admitted I was grieving, and even left myself open to other takes on the whole thing by asking "Is it just me, or...?" And THIS is a "feminist militant front"?? Come on, now. It didn't have to result in such a firestorm. I wouldn't have written another word on gender matters in this thread if Dale hadn't had such an extreme (I feel) reaction, that he was being "slammed", etc. Then Robin and I spontaneously discussed some gender matters that occurred to us *as a result*. Jeremy's seemingly sniping post with its little Wonder Woman icon didn't help matters. He and Dale should share some responsibility for outcomes in this thread, but that doesn't seem to occur to you. There wasn't any advance agenda. There was NO "all men are beasts" in what I wrote. If you really came to that conclusion, then I suggest you reread it much more carefully. If/when I make a conversational reference to gender matters, such as after seeing the movie "Mozart's Sister", or when Toni and I have discussed women's issues in the presidential campaign, my sentiments have been forthright, but not wildly bra-burning. Men don't get to be above ALL criticism ALL the time, you know. It doesn't mean women offering reasoned criticism as a result of personal abuse or societal injustice are mindless or militant man-haters, that tired old putdown. Did you catch my comments to Robin yesterday that, while I'm not crazy about the word "chick", it's not normally a big issue for me, and I scarcely feel like marching around my neighborhood with signs about it? Among other comments you appear to have missed. As for Oscar Wilde, I would check him out, if I didn't already own several volumes by and about him. Brevity can certainly be a talent, I agree, but what I wrote was that it's not a *particular virtue*. I mean, it's not an automatic or inherent one. In other words, there are times when it will do, and times when it won't. Check out Shakespeare.
Hi Les, I agree with you and Mr. Wilde that brevity is a talent. I take great pains to construct concise sentences for business purposes and for persuasive arguements. However...
When talking/writing to other women.... I free-flow.
My ex told me that one of the reasons many men cringe when their wives/girlfriends get together with other women is that we like to share EVERYTHING.
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I enjoy your posts ,please keep them coming!If there is something of concern ,please address it with whomever! I must have missed something,and remember, that opinions on this board are merely that!Keep on rockin DLM!! pw.
Borje: when I try to dance I usually start laughing and can't carry on. Last Tango!My wife doesn't give up on me .
Well put, Robin. I agree, and same here! :-)
Supercalifragelisticexpialidocious!!! And a hey-nonny-nonny and a hot-cha-cha!! :-)