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Index > General Discussion > Alvin Lee Message & Discussion Board > Re: Ok Toni, who is Suzanne
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Re: Ok Toni, who is Suzanne

Hi Laurie, Sorry you are suffering. I think grief for our loved ones is a tribute to them.

I made a small little joke about the girl sitting next to Alvin in a picture which was more of a burn on myself than the object of my comment. I also made a few remarks which I consider to be a tribute to the beauty of the girl. And finally, I made a comment that I do not think looks are important.

OK, enough self-serving defense from me.

Where I come from, Los Angeles, the term "chick" was in use long before hippies came along. The Beats used it freely as well. It was only when women started to be vocal about not wanting to be called "broad", "chick" "girl" that we learned it was considered to be offensive to many women.

Personally, I like to be called "Baby".

Re: Ok Toni, who is Suzanne

Hey Robin! :-) I wasn't bothered by anything you specifically wrote about Lorraine, and yes, I noticed your comment about looks ultimately not being most important. (Though of course they normally are important in attraction, and to each his or her own in that regard.) I still think L looks perfectly fine in the first pic, which I personally find the more interesting photo, but that's just me. Anyway, admittedly my discomfort was from the overall slightly extended critiquing of her appearance in the thread with frequent usage by the guys of the objectifying, trivializing word "chick", and the joking comparison of her with Chick Churchill, though I understand that was just a bit of clever wordplay our dear Don found too hard to resist, so it's scarcely an earthshaking matter. I admitted I was in a grieving mood, and tried to show myself open to other perspectives, but I'm feeling better and less rubbed the wrong way about the whole thing today. My opinions on controversial or touchy subjects are meant to be thought-provoking, and I see no way to do that without being frank in a manner that sometimes stretches comfort zones. I don't think it hurts guys to learn what words many women find offensive. I've noticed many guys have a lot more trouble taking simple criticism or forthrightness or instruction of any kind from a woman than from a man. That's something I'm just not inclined to cater to. We're all big boys and girls here. So... we can hang in there and get past our misunderstandings and discomforts and learn some things from each other, if we ever want to discuss meaningful subjects and not just chit-chat or shoot the breeze, right? Though those can be fun and worthwhile too.

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Re: Ok Toni, who is Suzanne

Hi again, Robin. "Chick" was definitely pre-hippie and has pretty much been around for ages in ALL parts of the country. Even Iowa had movie theatres, newspapers, and popular books and records back in the day. ;-) Beatniks and hippies, too! Though I'm half-New Yorker, so I've always been lucky to get in on the hotline from the REAL Center of the Universe!!! ;-) ;-) ;-)

Quote: Robin

".....Where I come from, Los Angeles, the term "chick" was in use long before hippies came along. The Beats used it freely as well. It was only when women started to be vocal about not wanting to be called "broad", "chick" "girl" that we learned it was considered to be offensive to many women. ......"

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Re: Ok Toni, who is Suzanne

Hi Laurie, I hope you are feeling better today.

Quote: Laurie
Hey Robin! :-) ... I still think L looks perfectly fine in the first pic, which I personally find the more interesting photo, but that's just me...


Laurie, if I am not mistaken, you have just extended the conversation regarding an aspect of Alvin's personal life. In addition, you appear to be implying that other pictures of this lovely woman are less than "interesting"!

Just kidding, Laurie. It shouldn't have to be such a minefield to communicate on a board where everyone here appears to be of goodwill and united by our common appreciation of Alvin Lee. Notice I said "our". I already feel part of this lovely community.

As for the relations between men and women -- (non-romantic, non-sexual), I don't differentiate between men who are jerks, or insensitive, or bullies and women who exhibit the same characteristics. Yes, many men resent taking advice, instruction, or orders from women, but those men are ignorant. Plenty of women have difficulty taking criticism or suggestions from authority as well.

Of course, I understand that men have dominated the power structure of our lives to the detriment of women throughout the ages, but I don't let that color my dealings with men as individuals.

I feel very strongly that we women have to give men the benefit of the doubt and the same respect we wish them to show to us.

"My opinions on controversial or touchy subjects are meant to be thought-provoking, and I see no way to do that without being frank in a manner that sometimes stretches comfort zones."

I get it. We all have our way of communicating. My personal style is to tread softly, feel my way around, advance a modified opinion, and ease my way into the meat of the matter once I have prepared the my audience to be open to my ideas.

Having said this.... I think men know which words are offensive to a particular group of women and have decided that they are not going to be told what they can and cannot say. I have had this discussion with many men over the years. It usually comes down to the idea that if a man likes to say "chick" and the women in his life don't resent it, why should he stop because another group of women in the world don't approve of it?

Personally, I could not care less, because I don't find those words offensive at all. It is the attitude behind a word that would be the offense.

This is a controversial subject and I respect your point of view and the point of view of women who feel the way you do. I also recognize that my personal ambivalence can be taken as a betrayal of "the cause".

I hope you know that I am merely adding a different perspective to the conversation and not advocating that we let men continue to walk all over us!

Re: Ok Toni, who is Suzanne

Hey Laurie,

As an idiot young teenager in the Sixties I thought the world revolved around my radio station, KRLA. I thought that was the source of everything cool in life. I knew my favorite musicians came other parts of our country (Motown) and another country altogether but it just didn't compute.

I would love to be a New Yorker. Both my sons live in Manhattan. One lives at the top and one lives at the bottom. But, the cold... I cannot take temperatures below 50 degrees F.

I apartment/dog sit every August, which is my favorite month on the East Coast. My son and his wife take the month to travel in Europe, where she is from. I love the humidity. The hotter the better.

Re: Ok Toni, who is Suzanne

Laurie, In follow-up to my thoughts re the use of offensive words:

I have had my head bitten off for saying Latino rather than Hispanic and for saying Hispanic rather than Latino. My Hispanic/Latino friends tell me it is the same for them.

I have had my head bitten off for saying Black rather than African-American and vice-versa.

I understand the sensitivities.

Re: Ok Toni, who is Suzanne

Quote: Robin

....."Laurie, if I am not mistaken, you have just extended the conversation regarding an aspect of Alvin's personal life. In addition, you appear to be implying that other pictures of this lovely woman are less than 'interesting'!
Just kidding, Laurie." Eeek, I hope you're just kidding. I'm not implying any such thing, in any case. I did also say "but that's just me". And I extended the conversation about "chick" issues, not Alvin's personal life per se, to try to clarify some things in reply to additional posts from others. "It shouldn't have to be such a minefield to communicate on a board where everyone here appears to be of goodwill and united by our common appreciation of Alvin Lee. Notice I said 'our'. I already feel part of this lovely community."
I agree, but I don't think it's a minefield. Not compared to some of the stuff I've heard about and seen others get into online! In any group that's more than tepid tea or garden party chat, there will be some tensions or misunderstandings at times. Toni herself remarked on here a day or two ago that she thought we were doing pretty well most of the time. But then, she actually enjoys my quirky and sometimes contentious posts! She recently professed to find it boring if things get too uncontroversial! So...perhaps I do still have some worth around here.
"As for the relations between men and women -- (non-romantic, non-sexual), I don't differentiate between men who are jerks, or insensitive, or bullies and women who exhibit the same characteristics." I don't ever condone any women who behave badly. But societally there have been more men behaving badly toward women than the reverse. Way more. It's just a fact. "Yes, many men resent taking advice, instruction, or orders from women, but those men are ignorant." Agreed, sista! "Plenty of women have difficulty taking criticism or suggestions from authority as well." Nobody likes criticism, man or woman. I wasn't so much meaning it as an authority issue, although it can be. I personally tend to chafe under authority figures myself, free spirit that I be. All the same, men often can't take forthrightness from a woman that they would from a man. It's a fair observation. Many women have experienced this, not just me.

"Of course, I understand that men have dominated the power structure of our lives to the detriment of women throughout the ages, but I don't let that color my dealings with men as individuals."
I don't either, as I've written on here before. I love men as individuals!
"I feel very strongly that we women have to give men the benefit of the doubt and the same respect we wish them to show to us."
We're constantly giving men the benefit of the doubt, most of us. All the time. Nobody's above reasoned criticism, but all persons deserve fundamental respect. With a handful of exceptions, such as Hitler, Ghaddafi, and their ilk. Just let me at 'em!!

".... I think men know which words are offensive to a particular group of women and have decided that they are not going to be told what they can and cannot say." You know, the word "chick" isn't that big a deal to me most of the time. I'm not crazy about it, but neither do I feel like marching around the neighborhood with signs over it, tee hee. I never tell a man what he "can" or "cannot" say. *I* can say what I like or dislike, and why, however. That shouldn't cause the sky to fall. The men I've been close to as lovers and friends haven't been jerks about such things, in any case. I would have a hard time being close to them if they were. I didn't care for the "chick" stuff yesterday, but I'm not rigid about it. I'll live. "This is a controversial subject and I respect your point of view and the point of view of women who feel the way you do. I also recognize that my personal ambivalence can be taken as a betrayal of 'the cause'."
Oh, I would never be that silly. Women have many causes, not just one. I'm too much of an individualist not to understand that in others. I'm not a formula feminist. I'm not a formula anything, believe me.
"I hope you know that I am merely adding a different perspective to the conversation and not advocating that we let men continue to walk all over us!" Of course! I *never* got such an impression from you, sister. Peace, love, and light to you!

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Re: Ok Toni, who is Suzanne

Laurie, You are a Sweetheart!

I might as well say right now and get it over with that I have had very traumatic experiences with men. The Big Three all happened to me:

1. my father (I won't go into details)

2. my first sexual experience: Date rape. I cried and begged him to stop but he got angry and told me I was "ruining it" for him.

3. more than one boss who thought he could put his hands on me.

I have as much reason as any woman to think men are monsters. But I don't. I think the men who hurt me are the monsters.

OK... that is my TMI for the day.

Time to turn on the music and immerse myself into my fantasy world with Alvin Lee.

EDIT: I neglected to say that my mother hurt me more than all the rest combined. I have a fear of both men and women, but I try to rise above it. I am open and loving but very, very, very careful.