Point well taken, akc, except that I'm not at all sure I would really be a good arbiter of what is offensive. For example, some of you think Wagstaff is offensive; I think he's brilliant. Some of you don't like any kidding about Joe Gooch or TYAN; I think a lot of the banter is hilarious.
Maybe the problem is that I have seen real venom and animosity ruin this board more than once since it began in 1997 - I even had to shut it down once for nearly a year thanks to the horrendously offensive things being posted about Alvin by two people who I won't name. As such, when there are problems that flare-up and disappear again, I don't worry about it much - it's such a vast improvement over the days when everyone seemed to be fighting wars here.
I do take to heart your suggestion, though, and do very much want everyone here to be respectful of everyone else. As the statistics clearly show, we are a very diverse lot, so we all need to think before we write. You are very right that abusiveness should not be tolerated. What may well make sense is to split the board into discussion categories, so that the potentially offensive issues of world affairs will be kept separate. I will definitely give it some thought and will try to improve the situation for those of you who consider the board a blot on the site.
In the meantime, I hope everyone here will help me out by trying to be kind to one another - even when we disagree. It honestly isn't all that hard to do.
Couple of points to make on Robert Sienko's post:
Industrialised countries are committed, via the UN, to make a 0.7% of GDP contribution to overseas aid. The USA, as the world's largest economy, does spend more in $$ than anyone else ($15.8bn in 2003). But as a share of GDP, at 0.14% its aid contribution is the lowest of any advanced nation and many in the international community believe it should do better.
Secondly, you also perpetuate the myth about the USA and WW2. It was indeed Neville Chamberlain who appeased the Nazis in 1937. And it was also he who declared war on behalf of Britain in 1939. He was not toppled in an election. He resigned and was replaced by Churchill in a Coalition Government.
The USA, far from being in the forefront of action against Hitler, was neutral for two more years... during the London Blitz and right up until after Pearl Harbor... and never declared war on Germany. It was the other way round - Germany and Italy declared war on the USA in December 1941. Once the USA lent its strength and manpower, of course, the balance of forces changed.
Sorry if this makes uncomfortable reading for you, Robert. But it was you who accused others of flunking history.
Iam with you will,They talk bad about me to, what you gonna say to them about that, screw Bob Marley, Will he don't know what any body is saying !!he is a gonner don't you know that??But they say really mean stuff about me!! Yes they have really bad attiudes on this site,and Robs the ring leader, They must think they can say anything they want on this site,voice any opion,Just cause someone disagrees with them,Man I like the hand to the sun thing thats real deep,Iam gonna try that the next time I go outside,Will I can't speel to good myself does that make me a runner,Ive never Liked to jog to much and to tell you the truth never been in a race before!!I don't understand why I gotta run if I can't spell???Speaking of railroad that is no big concern in the U.S. we can aford cars!!Man I see now it works,everytime I misspell a word I will run around the house,and soon you will learn to spell,thats a great ideal, Racist against Ignorance!! OOPs 10 laps be back in a min!!
Who's driving this thing??
(Ok,I do realize this has NOTHING to do with Ronnies, er, ,I mean Joe's, post. But I REALLY wanted to use the little steering wheel smilie)
HI A.K.C. I ASSUME YOU ARE SPEAKING OF MYSELF(AND PERHAPS I SHOULDN,T) BUT WHEN YOU MENTION WORDS LIKE BILE, AND VENOM, AND ABUSIVE ATTACKS, I THINK THATS A LITTLE SHORT SIGHTED ON YOU,RE PART. I,AM NOT SURE HOW YOU CAN COMMENT ON SUBJECTS THAT YOU MAY SEE ME BEING ANGRY OR (ABUSIVE ATTACKS)AS YOU PUT IT , WITHOUT KNOWING THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY IT,S IMPOSSIBLE WHEN YOU BREEZE IN AND OUT OF THE SITE TO KNOW WHAT I,AM SPEAKING OF WHEN YOU MAY HAVE READ MY RESPONSE TO TOM. IT SURE MAKES ME LOOK ANGRY AND VENOMIOUS A.K.C. BUT IF YOU AND YOU,RE WIFE (IF YOU,RE MARRIED)HAD BEEN THREATENED IN THE WAY WE WERE AND HAD THE THINGS SAID ABOUT YOU,RE DIENG MOTHER A.K.C. I,AM QUITE CERTAIN YOU WOULD OF REACTED IN THE SAME WAY I,AM A GOOD PERSON A.K.C. TRUST ME IF WE WERE FRIENDS AND YOU WERE BROKE DOWN AT #3 IN THE MORNING, I WOULD BE THE FIRST PERSON YOU WOULD CALL BECAUSE YOU WOULD KNOW THAT I WOULD NEVER LET YOU DOWN. SO IT,S NOT FAIR TO JUDGE ME WHEN YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT KIND OF PERSON I AM PEACE PAUL
I'm quite sure you do work hard on this web site and all you provide here for Alvin Lee fans around the world.Thank you for that.And again, with Paul's response, it's only "his kind", (to take a well used phrase of his),that will fit in here, because if you say anything that goes against what Paul says, he then spew's some very ignorant and ridiculous stuff out of his pie hole.And you excuse it as "just Paul".
And I am quite sure you remember about that sorry accusation of Paul's about vile emails being sent to his personal web site from me.Probably everyone on here remembers that.Do you remember me calling Paul out on that accussation?? We told him to trace it, to investigate it,etc., etc. NOTHING ever came of it. The emails suddenly stopped.Honestly,if he really had wanted to,that kind of stuff can be traced or investigated, it's a no brainer,it can be done.Paul, why didn't you pursue that?? Seriously?? You could have done several things to find out exactly where those "alledged" emails were coming from,even if they had stopped or continued.As I told you before, anything I had to say to you , your wife,your brother, your sister, your mom,which by the way, how would I have ever known about your mom being ill or dying???your dog, cat, your cow's, I would have said it right here.COME ON PAUL!!
One other thing in regards to you Paul; if you want to send me that plane ticket to your town,go ahead, make my day:)It probably wouldn't be the wisest thing to do, no kidding Paul.And once again, you prove my point,just keep talking and YOU make my point!
Toni, you might delete this,but either way, this is just a long standing thing between Paul and I.I am glad you provide this site for all Alvin Lee fans, so nothing personal towards you or the work you do.
And to whoever asked the question about "other musician discussion boards", all you have to do is pick a musician you like, most have web sites and many have discussion boards. What is so hard to believe about that?? Go to Joe Satriani's site,who by the way, is an Alvin fan and names him as a big influence, has a discussion board.
Paul truly believes he received emails from you, Tom, and I do recall the situation - it came at a time when someone from another board was harassing many of us with nasty foul e-mails and other assorted "pranks". I believed then - and now - that because you guys were having a public battle, our vicious little friend began sending Paul those e-mails claiming they were from you.
Truthfully, though, with or without e-mails, you guys aren't destined to get along. So, can I ask why you can't just ignore one another? I've been to Joe Satriani's board and there's a lot of nonsense and drivel amongst the many posts - that happens on every single public forum across the web - so why not read what interests you, join in when you feel you have something to say, and ignore that which offends you?
I don't want anyone to feel unwelcome here - not Paul, who is my friend and who has been an active member of this board for many years - and not you or any other Alvin Lee fan. So give me some suggestions here - how to we make this work for everyone?
THANKS TONI I APPRECIATE IT BUDDY , I WOULD NEVER DO ANY THING TO PUT YOU ON THE SPOT LIKE THIS I,AM SORRY IF I DID. I CAN MAKE IT EASY I,LL NOT RESPOND TO THIS FOOL AGAIN, PERHAPS SOMEONE SHOULD REMIND HIM THOUGH THAT HE IS ALWAYS THE ONE WHO APPEARS AND TAKES A SHOT AT ME. WHICH IS THE CASE AGAIN THIS TIME, ONLY DIFFERANCE IS HE RIPPED THE WHOLE BOARD, AND I DIDN,T SEE YOU APOLOGIZING TO ANY ONE BUT TONI. IT WOULDN,T OF BEEN REAL HARD TO FIND OUT THAT MY MOM WAS ILL I POSTED IT SEVERAL TIMES ON HERE, SO NOW WHAT TOM. MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS ON ALL MY POSTS TOM I DIDN,T SEE YOURS WHICH ALWAYS SEEMS TO BE THE CASE WITH BIG MOUTHS LIKE YOU WHO SHOW UP ON HERE WITH ONLY ONE THING IN MIND, AND THATS TO BELITTLE OTHERS. I DON,T LIKE YOU MUCH TOM SO YOU HAVE MY EMAIL ADDRESS WHEN YOU,RE FEELING FRISKY YOU SEND ME OUT YOU,RE ADDRESS SO I KNOW WHERE TO SEND THE TICKET TOO OK AND WE CAN DO THAT NO PROBLEM AT ALL WHEN EVER YOU,RE READY YOU JUST LET ME KNOW AND THE EMAILS STOPPED ONLY WHEN I TOLD YOU THEY WOULD BE TRACED NEXT TIME. I WILL BE ANXIOUSLY AWAITING YOU EMAIL, YOU DON,T HAVE THE BALLS TOM , AND I,LL PROVE IT TO YOU WITH THIS OFFER. IF YOU SEND IT THURSDAY I,LL OVER NIGHT THE TICKET AND I,LL MEET YOU SATURDAY AT THE PITTSBURGH INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT OK DON,T FORGET ...PAUL
THATS WHAT I THOUGH TOM (JUST A BIG MOUTH THATS ALL NOTHING MORE).. PAUL
Paul, your so brave on here. and again, I don't have to say a word, you make my point. Just keep flappin those gums Paul.
I hope your in better physical condition then you are mental, because if you look like you sound, your gonna get a serious ass whoopin.
Now as for the ongoing crap about the vile and nasty emails, again Paul, your memory is failing you. The first time ANYONE brought up having the emails traced was by me :)Thank you very much:) You should stop with the accusations because you look seriously ridiculous.
Finally Paul....seriously, for me to get on a plane and fly to Pittsburgh would be so stupid. Why would I first off give you my address, 2nd, fly to your city to knock you out, then probably go to jail, and 3rd, have to fly home knowing that our fued would be over.That would be sad because it cracks me up to see your panties in a wad.
my only suggestion to keep things a bit more peaceful is maybe to say.....no religous or political discussions. Just a suggestion, but it's just like they say, stay away from those topics because they are extremely personal and people are very passionate about those things so close to the heart. Oh, and no TYAN discussions! Those are very passionate, heated, and personal as well!!!
I think this goes for most people, if you see someone saying negative, bad, nasty things,etc, (or writting in this case), about something that is close and personal to you, it will make you mad,emotional,hurt.... and then come the arguments, etc. Thanks Toni
Okay, this has to stop. No more fighting, no more threatening PLEASE!!! Paul, I love you but it's time to move on and leave this alone. Please.
Tom, its pretty hard to completely disallow political discussion - there is simply too much going on in the world that means to much to all of us, no matter what side of the political spectrum you're on. The real trick is to be able to discuss it while showing a little respect for the opposing view. I am considering going to a board styled forum, so that general discussion and current affairs were completely separate. That should at least help.
As for discussions about TYAN - as long as there is a TYAN I can promise that won't stop. Too many people care and new people seem to learn about it all the time and start the discussions in earnest again. Carl was a recent example of someone who had just found out. I do consider those discussions relevant as they often reflect on things the band members have said about Alvin or on comments from their fans that reflect negatively on Alvin - and you can't possibly expect Alvin's fans not to defend him from some of those statements. I like how you say that everyone knows there is no TYA without Alvin - but that's exactly what creates the problem and discussions! We do the best we can - but you have to understand that I am not about to allow anyone to demean or lie about Alvin Lee.
And I would defend him too Toni, no doubt. I just read the thread about Ian Hunters journal and memory of Alvin and TYA. I find it easy to believe that Alvin is a great and nice guy. Although I have not had the thrill of meeting him in person, I have seen him in concert about 10 times or so and has always seemed very cool, funny, and grateful for the fans.Really, I find it extremely hard to believe that any TRUE TYA fan could actually trash Alvin. Maybe a new fan, someone who just discovered the Joe Goochy band, but not someone who has been a life long TYA fan. No reason too, Alvin has ALWAYS given his fans his all, at least that's my perspective.
That's nice Tom. I believe you would. I certainly know you're a dedicated fan, and I love your take on Alvin. Even before I had the pleasure of getting to meet him, I always thought he gave off good vibes, and he has always been grateful for his fans (even though I think there have been times he doesn't really understand even having fans - it seems to embarass him a bit, I think). But Tom, so many hurtful things have been said by some of the people I always thought were solid, long time fans. And both Leo and Ric have said some hurtful things in interviews - and I know its none of our business what goes on between band members, but its just stinks that its been taken public.
Maybe what some of us - me included - forget is that people who haven't been reading the various bulletin boards for these past years, people coming into it fresh, probably don't understand why we're saying some of the things we say here - and what we see as satire may come off as just being mean. I am sorry for that, and should probably be a lot more careful of my words. Wouldn't it be nice to just talk about the music!
Quote - "Maybe what some of us - me included - forget is that people who haven't been reading the various bulletin boards for these past years, people coming into it fresh, probably don't understand why we're saying some of the things we say here - and what we see as satire may come off as just being mean. " Unquote
That is a VERY valid point.
Because the board regulars have got to know each other through their posts on here, it's so easy to forget that there are hundreds of passers-by who are
reading the posts but not participating. These might be devoted Alvin Lee fans who just don't like getting involved in messageboard discussions, but who like to read other people's views - and it's also casual fans, new fans, general fans of blues, rock, etc who aren't interested in the personalities or the 'he said she said' behind the music - but who just spend a few minutes looking at the messageboard as an offshoot of the website.
A casual reader will soon sense the 'intolerance' towards certain views, and whether the intolerance is justified or not, it still sends an unwelcoming message, especially to non-confrontational readers who don't feel confident expressing and defending their opinions on a forum where the vibe is even slightly hostile.
For instance, the other day when Toni posted the site-stats, one of the first things that crossed my mind was that the increase in interest in the Alvin Lee site might be in part due to the new line-up currently touring and increasing the fanbase for the whole of the Alvin Lee catalogue. I would have posted that suggestion on here at the time, but as a non-regular, I thought that it would be seen as stirring the pot, and I couldn't be bothered to 'defend' it if the thread were to deteriorate into a Ric/Chick/Leo/Joe-bashing thread.
I'm in NO WAY saying you shouldn't hold these views or express them - I'm just agreeing with Toni that there are sometimes mixed signals going out as to how welcoming the regulars are towards newcomers. Being pro the new line-up doesn't automatically mean someone is anti-Alvin. No-one should come onto an Alvin Lee messageboard and bash Alvin, obviously, but it's almost like there's no leeway at all to say anything constructive about the new line-up, even though Toni's said that all fans are welcome.
Sometimes the abrasive comments - even though they're often qualified afterwards as 'having a bit of fun' -put off someone who would otherwise participate constructively.
So, going back to the quote at the top of this post, I couldn't agree more! And while I'm here, big credit to Toni for keeping the site interesting and up-to-date, and for all the energy and devotion she puts in! Well done, lady!
Thanks for your opinion KM; its a point very well taken. I've often tried to make it clear that we are aware here that being a fan of Alvin Lee does not and should not mean you can't also be a fan of TYAN, and that all fans of Alvin's are welcome. But its difficult in that we also, from a sort of "official" point of view, do not support the new band or wish to promote them in any way. Here's the problem - this is not an amicable thing between them and Alvin, as it could have been if they'd use a different name. Alvin is unhappy with their use of the name, use of his material, the fact that many of his fans have been misled (intentionally or not), and the things Ric and Leo have said publicly in interviews about him and the history of TYA. So why we would foster disussion or support them on Alvin's site? To hurt him? My personal opinion is that TYAN have nothing whatsoever to do with Alvin Lee, except that three of them once played in a band with him (and that band is often and enthusiastically discussed).
However, that certainly doesn't mean that anytime someone says something about them we should all get hostile, and I often wonder if there is any way to soften the "abrasive comments" or at least their interpretation. Much of our banter is actually directed against a person we find distasteful and often it is direct reaction to something underhanded from that person; yet I understand that unless the casual observer knew that or knew what was said or done, it's us that comes off as hostile. I'm not sure how to change that - as in any situation where some people have more knowledge of circumstances than others, its going to come off lopsided. I wish I had an answer, and I'm open to any and all suggestions. I would be delighted to have more of you participate in conversations about Alvin and his music.
By the way, as to wondering whether TYAN have anything to do with the increased numbers here, I do doubt it. Aside from a strong following in Germany, I don't think they've attracted that many new fans, and Alvin confirms there have been no increases in sales in the TYA catalog. I actually think Alvin's manager hit on the real reason for the increase - he told me that the longer Alvin goes without touring the more offers he receives. I think this is the same phenomenon - the longer Alvin doesn't tour, the more people want to find out what he's doing. Absence does indeed make the heart grow fonder.
As always, very well said Toni. I think of Ten Years After, and TYAN as two completely different bands. Even though "only" the front man has changed, it was that "front man" who (as we all know) sang all the songs, played the guitar (the instrument TYA was known for), and wrote the bulk of the bands material, including their two most well known tunes "I'm Going Home", and "I'd Love To Change The World", both of wich the new line up still perform. And I disagree that they have brought new fans to Alvin Lee. They MAY have got old fans of the group who have'nt kept up to date wondering "where's Alvin"?, but I think that's the extent of it.
I'm also not so sure we're offending casual viewers who just happen by. I've looked over other message boards at different artists sites, and just because I did'nt post did'nt mean I was offended by anyone. If I disagreed with a post, I just skipped it. As a matter of fact, I VERY RARELY posted anywhere until I came across this board while doing a search on Alvin. The search had nothing to do with TYAN, whom truthfully I never heard of until I came here. But while checking out the message board, I found everyone funny, interesting, and mostly FRIENDLY. Opinionated...yes, but definitely friendly. Since then, I've been a regular poster(probably posting when sometimes I should keep my opinions to myself). In that process, even though I've never actually MET anyone here,and may never get the chance, I consider people like Toni, 601 Blues, Alan, Cramer, Paul, Pieter, Jane (I'm sure I'm leaving someone out) and the like friends. We don't always agree with each other, we might even argue over something at some point, but I've NEVER not felt welcome here. Because in the end, we're all fans of Alvin. That's what brought us here(just like KM ), and that's what keeps us here.
Thanks Rob - great post and the I hope you know the feeling is mutual. It's amazing how we manage to become a little cyber-family, isn't it? If we could get Alvin over here to the Staes, maybe we'll all figure out a way to meet and rock together at a show. After all these years, there is still only one Alvin Lee - and he's awesome.
And at the risk of offending anyone, TYA and TYAN are entirely different bands - and one of them shouldn't copy Alvin's licks.
LIKE WISE ROB, IT,S NOT HARD TO TELL THAT YOU,RE A GOOD GUY BUD, YOU,RE HONEST AND CONSISTANT IN YOU,RE VIEWS NO MATTER WHAT THE SUBJECT IS AND YOU SPEAK FROM THE HEART, AND IN MY OPINION ROB THERES KNOW NEED TO STAY SILENT WHEN YOU HAVE AN OPINION. MY OPINIONS ARE NOT ALWAYS POPULAR BUT YOU ARE RESPECTFUL WHEN YOU RESPONDED TO ME LIKE IT OR NOT WHAT I HAVE TO SAY, AND YOU,RE NOT LIKE SOME WHO SEE IT AS CHANCE TO ATTACK ME AND BELITTLE MY VOICE KEEP TALKIN ROB WE HEAR YA BUD PEACE PAUL