An intervention is about to take place with someone I know, who has been fooled into believing in all this Ramtha baloney. I have been asked to help with information, as long as it is not heresay. Most of what I know is heresay via EMF. I need any suggestions as to how I can best serve the individual with verifiable information. I need help....the victim needs help. I'm thinking the best form of evidence is the Jeff Knight tape. Any help is appreciated.

Hi Diane,

Wish I could say I felt there is a best way, like best way to get bark off a tree.

It all depends on what you would expect from the outcome. Does the bark get used in the removal process? Is the time it takes essencial?? How much damage can the wood beneath withstand? etc, etc,

Invite them to explain to you their understanding of their involvement. Listen as you would have them listen to yourself That is always a good place to begin

The best way to intervene is to let the individual decide what is truth for them, not you or heresay. You are right, there is a lot of hearsay, heresy and misinformation and allegations on this website. Because people here felt fooled, does not mean that truth was not presented, no matter who espouses it. His/Her soul will let them know if they are ready or not for wisdom.

If half of the stuff happened as the people alledgely described, then the authorites would have got ridden of RSE, just like in Waco, Texas. Obviously, very few of the people espousing here has a bean of truth of their allegations, but lots of sympathy, empathy and a place to whine.

Diane,

Google Video notified me just last week
that the "Jeff Knight interview with Joe Szimhart" video allegedly violates the copyright of others,
and have removed it. This is absolutely untrue.
I am in the process of finding out who made the complaint and will restore it to our EMF Google video library ASAP.
If you would like a copy?
I will gladly post a DVD to you,
along with the LARSE videos.

David,

LARSE@ywave.com

Saxim-
you are still a devout follower.
this question is not for you.

I was exit counselled by Joe Sz ( number one exit counseller in the US) this past spring.
1) it cannot be forced
2) Joe has all relevent materials

I have accumulated a few.
*The Wave
*Pied Pipers of Our Times
Interviews with previously "exited" people
documentation that "Masters of the Far East" is a work of fiction.
That guy took 30 years to write that series, and took up until book 4 to actually GO o Asia.
Interviews with people who have worked "up at the house" (JZ's-that would be me)

Again, I'm wondering why yet another current RSE student has created EMF in their timeline? It would seem they ought just change timelines, or at the very least, stop "creating" EMF within their lives. It's so simple, currents, isn't it? ahem.

Saxim, why did you "create" this reality for yourself? Look very deeply within.

"Sympathy, empathy and a place to whine" - without wine, lol.
I am going to start a club with that title...believe you have provided the key - yes, u are a God. I would have so many people lining up for membership, I would not be able to book a venue large enough to hold such a multitude. That really is what I myself provide. And what most people are looking for.
Thank you!!!!!!!

Saxim-
I hope you keep a copy of your posts.
ten years from now, you will read what you wrote and think:
what an a$$ I was.

Saxim,

"Because people here felt fooled, does not mean that truth was not presented, no matter who espouses it. His/Her soul will let them know if they are ready or not for wisdom. "

I must say you do sound a bit self-absorbed. What makes you think you can speak for another’s soul??


Think of the school as a restaurant for a moment, people have eaten there and not gotten sick. Then people complain of getting sick there. Others don't. The restaurant claims that it is only their weak constitution, which is making them ill. They go to the doctor and he tells them that he has had other complaints from people eating at the same place.

After a while, it is discovered that the head cook there has been disregarding health rules, food temp, rodents, insects and not cooking food well or checking the sources from where they buy it.

The head cook has also decided that he/she does not have to concern themselves with these factors because he/she believes that it is up to the customers to decide what they should eat and how safe it is for them.

The ones who have gotten sick there are put off by the food and know there are many other places to eat where they will not have to remember getting sick from the food.

Others who have eaten there decide, even if they have not gotten sick (YET) do not want to risk eating there anymore because they now realize the risk which they had been previously unaware of. They too don't shrivel up and die, they find another place to eat.

A few customers, who happen to like the pie and coffee and discourse with the remaining customers stay. They stay because they are attached to the place. They have been going there a long time; they have pleasant memories even if the others around them have gotten sick there. They watch as the new unaware customers come through the doors.

When the new customers ask "How's the food here, tell me what is good". They tell them everything on the menu is fine, experience it for yourself.
They conveniently leave out that there have been problems, some people get sick and that the cook has some extraordinary ideas about food handling. (Like forgetting to wash their hands after a crap).

They tell them this, not to give them an honest answer to their questions, not to "provide them with their own experience" but the main motivation is to validate their own experience. If the newbie eats their and gets sick it is because of their "weak' constitution" if they do not and remain unaware of the potential risks then they look at them as being strong, independent, and on the road to enlightenment. Most of all, they now have supportive company.

And so it goes, with the newbie’s coming and going, some getting sick, some simply passing through town, some leaving with a bad taste in their mouths and a few who manage to develop an immunity of sorts to the germ ridden food (at what cost??).

But note the realities, the place still claims to have the best food in town, it is expensive in comparison, their customers still have to use a porta pottie (or their own invention), eat off of paper plates, wave the flies away, look at a dirty floor, etc.

But "oh my heck", ain't the pie great!?

what a great post journey!!!
I choose to eat at another restaraunt far, far away.....
(the ingredients are pure and natural...
not with added artificial colorings or nutrients).

That restaurant isn't serving frog legs anymore.. . nice prose, J.

Did this purpose of this thread - an intervention - take place? REAL C&E (compassion/empathy)= Love was heading up. That is the true 'void' at the ranch and among all the mind wranglers.

I wonder if Saxim has ever accepted help from another.. all that performance pressure... when removed, one remembers what a spacious & expansive place the world can be. No need for self control, marching around, somebody else's wisdom. Just being in the moment, then the next, and the next...

hope all went well, Diane. 1-800-psychic friend works via the love channel. this board helps us tune in.

David,
The Jeff Knight video is one of the first things I came across regarding Ramtha. It certainly had an impact on how I would interpret everything else that followed. Jeff Knight was articulate, and straight-forward. I came away from watching that interview with the feeling he had nothing to lose by simply telling the truth. You & Joe and everyone else on this board deserve so much credit for helping to expose a woman who has spent years exploiting everyone looking for a higher purpose and spiritual understanding.

Shame on you JZ, for all the hurt you have caused to so many people and their families. Most of all, shame on the students who create their own realities at the emotional and finacial expense of others.

Diane

Diane posted, "Shame on you JZ, for all the hurt you have caused to so many people and their families. Most of all, shame on the students who create their own realities at the emotional and finacial expense of others."

Exactly.
The staff there are leeches on an abusive, corrupt system. If they believed that the teachings produced Gods-in-flesh, they would not have to whine about those who criticize RSE after leaving it. If they had the "knowingness" that it espoused in the teachings, they would be able to stand up to anything that comes at them, and stand firmly in their "fourth seal". They do not do that.

The whine at former students who criticize, they do not respond to the criticisms, their "leaders" hide either in their mansion (JZ), or remain an elusive phantom (Ramtha). Any system worth its salt, would be available for criticism and be able to explain it. And would be able to demonstrate the truth of what it preaches AS truth. But, it does not do those things.

It seems to me that even if Ramtha exists, he's been proven impotent, because his teachings have not proven true. They remain as nothing more than a grandiose philosphy.

IMO, these are the things that should be addressed with someone who is on the way out. I personally don't think it's "wrong" to address the possibility (for argument's sake) of Ramtha being real - because - to a current student, he is real, if only in their mind. Addressing the cult from that issue, and undoing the hypocrisies (of which there are plenty) that are found in "his" words, actions, and the subsequent reality (failed results), fuels even a mustard seed of doubt. I don't believe there is one student in that school that does not have doubt. Fertilize that doubt. Give it reason to grow. What about all of us ex-students, who are happy, living full lives, even though we are disgusted about our RSE experiences (realizing it's a cult, etc., etc)? Life does go on. Nobody is struck by lightening by The Big Guy. What about those that realized they do go on, afterwards, but haven't been able to recoup the lives they left (money, family, health, etc)?

Also, very important, imo, is telling...giving a current student permission (they are FOLLOWERS, not THINKERS at this point), to evolve without the need for Ramtha. I think most/all of us want spirituality in our lives. We want to believe there is "more" than just physical life. To think it is ALL a lie, is overwhelming. It's bad enough to have to face that the likes of RSE and all of its leeches (staff), have bilked us. Coming at "cracking the egg" from the vantage point OF THE CURRENT STUDENT, is, imo, a wise thing to do.

Some thoughts...

Heresay has its place, too. I wouldn't discount that, either. A lot of the folks who have posted here are telling the truth - as it has been corroborated by other posters, too. Could it all be bologna since we don't see these people ? Sure. Is it ? Not likely. I'm certainly not lying in any of my posts ! I know others aren't, either, because I do know them and we attended certain same events. I know that is only of limited help to you, but please don't discount it !

All of these "tools" are stepping stones to Realization and Recovery. Consider all of them and use whatever it takes to get the person to REALLY "wake up".

GOOD LUCK !!! Keep us posted.

Whatcha

Whatcha,
I'm not the one who was concerned about heresay. I read everything I could find on Ramtha and what is taught at the school just to get a basic understanding of what was happening to this guy. But the best education I found, is what is written by the ex-students on this message board.
The person who will try to intervene wants to make sure that when he approaches the individual, that he has something that can easily be verified. Its such a sensitive matter to the people closest to him. Personally, I would hire an expert if it were up to me. Unfortunately, its not. I was asked back in January to look into Ramtha and one particular advanced student, but the information is limited, and I have had trouble getting a hold of Joe or David via email.
What has happened to this person and who it involves would shock all of you on this board.

It's an open question in my mind whether the RSE staff are leeches. The fact that Judy summarily and unceremoniously dumped Joe and Audrey suggests that staff is victimized as well. They are subject to the same programming and are even more heavily invested in the uselessness of the gig.

None of them have the lavish, overdone lifestyle of Judy and most of them work like dogs. (How ironic dog is god backward - it really fits!) Worst of all, everybody is getting older, no DOUBT about that! Health insurance? No. Retirement? Aw, c'mon. Paid days off? Why? Gold dust will be falling out of the sky any minute now...

Looks to me that staff are the biggest stooges of all and, as usual, Judy is laughing all the way to the bank...but, hey - they are all creating their own reality, right?

Or something like that...

Diane, shouldn't the person who is doing the intervention be the one who is educating themselves on the group and/or ramtha...? I'm sure your personal research is very valuable but as it seems to go with these things, when the information gets passed from one to another (especially if those do not have personal experience w/the group) it tends to loose some of the detail.

So I guess you explained it when you said that they are not using a professional, nevertheless I still hope for the best for the whole situation. You certainly have peaked my interest with your comment about the advanced student...

I guess I should weigh in on your original question a little further since I did go thru an 'involuntary' (and failed) exit-counseling. I think the most effective way to intervene is often hard to pinpoint but having multiple plans in place might help.

Having someone who is well educated on rse is essential, maybe even a former member (maybe not, Joe probably has a better take on that). At least in my experience there were 3 exit counselors involved: one left because it was too coercive for her (I assume), one I refused to talk to (Joe), and the third one I did have some conversations with although I don't remember that much of it sank in at all. What I'm saying though, is that had there only been one person there and I had refused to speak with them, that would have been the end of it. Of course, my exit-counseling resulted in 8 more years of rse (not the fault of the session really), so maybe forget anything I said, lol.

I think much depends on the individual who is being counseled. Their personality and level of commitment has to be taken into consideration. One has to find an opening somehow. He (I think it's a he you're talking about...?) might be willing to hear former members' experiences, he might respond to the Jeff Knight video, he might respond to healthy discussion about 'the teachings' and hopefully discover the endless discrepancies and hypocrisies, or the parallels with religion that are otherwise so despised. The whole stigma attached to 'following the body's urges', you may as well call it sin. But oh no, sin only exists in organized religion, right... yeah, bs.

Essentially I can only guess that it takes a very tuned in individual to counsel someone out of a situation like this because much of the game plan has to be improvised and tailored to the person in the moment.

I wish I had more concrete advice, I think there probably isn't one approach that fits all people. Ultimately whether what you do works or not isn't really totally in your realm of control so the best you can do is to resolve to do your best.

I was never in a cult, so should not say anything...however, when I viewed the video of the first LARSE gathering, one (obviously current) student was heard to ask "What do you offer us in its place?"...that may be a line of thought to pursue...also, not knowing the person in question, but knowing some people who have been in coersive groups and situations, I would suggest a gradual chipping away at the eroneous thoughts...unheated arguments and discussion...and also, to keep reminding the person of any people, places, things or ideas that they have given up or moved away from in order to belong, and strong positive affirmation of any words or actions of theirs that remind you of their old self, or seem to show doubt, or that evidence that they are thinking for themselves. I really hope it all works out.

Diane,

I think it's good advice that what you're endeavoring to do may release the advanced students from the bonds of RSE. BUT, it is outside of your control and you and your help, can only do their best. The student may hear now, later, or never. Let's hope for success now !

EWO - about the leeches. I understand your perspective, with the comments you've mentioned. I do think one can be a leech unknowingly, though. I also believe that given their behavior over the years, they are not in the position for money or insurance coverage, but for power and control. I also know that some of them (can't speak for all of them) did have doubt before they quit RSE on their own. It took them time to come to terms with having not only been in a cult, but been in a position where they worked to advance the cause by being staff or volunteers. In that regard, imo, they are leeches upon the system.

Are they under undue influence ? I believe so.

I've been watching this thread--it is hard to impossible to advise anyone not knowing the specifics and background of the person and family involved....
but here are some things to consider:

No matter how an intervention occurs it will not work unless the interveners gain rapport with the client first. I have seen interventions begin in the most benign, open way with no coercion whatsoever beyond a mild surprise, and the client [cult member] used the attempt as an excuse to further reject the family.
"How dare you.... #*%#!!?" and then it's over within an hour....

Exit counselors prepare interveners/concerned persons thoroughly--sometimes for days--before attempting the intervention just to be able to sustain rapport.

All interventions are tough--for some people it is the toughest thing they have ever done to confront a family member about a controversial choice they made....or to get them to want to stop a bad habit.

Once rapport emerges [curiosity, interest in new information, trust in the source or person offering the info], the next stage is educational. You had better know what you are talking about in spades and with back-up documentation because most group members are intelligent and become very clever, using every barrier they learned from the groupthink to avoid rational conclusions outside the cult box.

The final stage is remedial--what do they do now? Who can they trust in their recovery?

All this has to be sorted out ahead of time.

In my experience, a good intervention that succeeds takes 20 - 30 hours of intense exchange--and to get that much in takes from 2 to 4 or 5 days usually.

Interventions with drug/alchohol addicts are much different, much shorter [usually several hours] because the education part takes place in rehab over weeks and months.

Thank you all for your input. I consider it of great value.
The advanced student is not the one the intervention is to take place for, but someone she has fooled into believing in this cult. The victim, is an intelligent man that has slowly become involved. The family and friends are terribly concerned because of the changes in his personality, as well as his relationship with his children and former friends. He's becoming more and more distant. They fear losing him altogether. They worry about his health, and feel they have to at least try to intervene. His once closest friend is the one who will try to talk to him, and see if he can somehow express the family's concern about this cult. The family will not sit back and do nothing.
My concern is they are sending in the wrong person. They need to send in a professional who is equipped to handle the grip this cult seems to have on him. BTW, the family are terrified of this cult. That's why they asked me to look into it. I'd prefer if they would contact Joe directly. Joe, do you take on new cases?

diane-just e mail joe.
his email is below his name.

Thanks Tree,

Finally, I'm now in contact with David, we're half-way there! Thanks for all the support, wish us luck.......as we wish for all of you.

G2G "Again, I'm wondering why yet another current RSE student has created EMF in their timeline? It would seem they ought just change timelines, or at the very least, stop "creating" EMF within their lives. It's so simple, currents, isn't it? ahem.

Saxim, why did you "create" this reality for yourself? Look very deeply within."


The reason of unknowingness on your part instills in the fact that YOU are the not the only one reading comments on this board. Perhaps I may just be in this timeline for someone else. Everyone that views, do not post, hate to let you on that little hint. Also, to educate you a little further, I have various and many timelines I look into from time to time. I do not have just one timeline, neither do the other current students who may go back in time to read this or go into the future to read the posts.



Lost in Space "Sympathy, empathy and a place to whine" - without wine, lol.
I am going to start a club with that title...believe you have provided the key - yes, u are a God. I would have so many people lining up for membership, I would not be able to book a venue large enough to hold such a multitude. That really is what I myself provide. And what most people are looking for.
Thank you!!!!!!!

You are most graciously welcome.



Journeythroughramthaland "I must say you do sound a bit self-absorbed. What makes you think you can speak for another’s soul??"

They actually let you roam through ramtha land? I guess you got an A for reading and comprehension in grammar school too. Perhaps you should stick to story telling, you get in A in that.


Sorry timeline warp, have to get back, forgot your name, that is what happens when you are changing time lines.

"I wonder if Saxim has ever accepted help from another.. all that performance pressure... when removed, one remembers what a spacious & expansive place the world can be. No need for self control, marching around, somebody else's wisdom. Just being in the moment, then the next, and the next..."

No need for help, but no where to go if needed. No performance pressure either. Except when I was taking piano lessons as a child and majoring in music as an adult. The world is a spacious and expansive place without the narrow mindedness that goes on.

SAXIM is back, LOL. Also, dear Saxim has taken time to spread arrogance about what we don't know.

Sweetie, I was in RSE for almost 20 years. You're right. Many people who read here, don't post. Instead, they privately email the moderators with what they know about RSE - including some very long time former staff members. There is so much more going on than ever reaches this forum.

You don't belong posting here with your arrogance, disrespectful, self righteous attitiude, speaking in a condescending manner to the sincere posters on this forum.

You even used the word "hate". That does not surprpise me.

I truly feel sorry for you. I hope you have an awakening that you're in a cult.

You interestingly exhibited a number of defense mechanisms in your post - attempting not to do what posters asked - but to deflect the questions with thinly veiled sarcasm, or try to turn it around so that it's not YOU (it is you) who needs to respond, but that you're showing them the error of their ways.

Not so, Saxim.

Saxim wrote,"The reason of unknowingness on your part instills in the fact that YOU are the not the only one reading comments on this board. Perhaps I may just be in this timeline for someone else. Everyone that views, do not post, hate to let you on that little hint. Also, to educate you a little further, I have various and many timelines I look into from time to time. I do not have just one timeline, neither do the other current students who may go back in time to read this or go into the future to read the posts."

Saxim, you sound delusional. If you're "power" of "fixing" EMF was so great, it never would have needed to be created. You can take that thought back to the misleading nature of RSE and its abusive teacher and techniques and FACE IT.

Dear whatchamacallit,

LOL.

--You don't belong posting here with your arrogance, disrespectful, self righteous attitiude, speaking in a condescending manner to the sincere posters on this forum.--

Where are those sincere posters on this forum?
Most of the posters never attended the school they are posting about.

Also, I would be interested to know, how often did you interrupt your school-attendance since your beginning-try in 1990?

Let’s not talk about the last years where your main job seems to be, to support bashing everything not conform to your social consciousness.

Usually those whatchamaccalits pointing fingers to the mud of others, are themselves stick 'till their neck in muck.

Take a deeper look in YOUR OWN broken mirror!

Sincerely.

"Where are those sincere posters on this forum?
Most of the posters never attended the school they are posting about"?

You are talking to one person who is both sincere and a former student, named Whatchamacalit, but I don't think she's helpless, so I am not defending her.

I say to you verily, the sincere posters who were former students have often made me question my right to be here - and there a lot of them.
And I believe you should Stop Looking in the Mirror, narcissus.

Hey Lost in Brain, are we on the bashing forum here?

Go to the womens market place!

To all the genuinge ex-members and the loved ones of current members, I believe it is pointless responding to the posts of these brainwashed Ramsters.

You are never going to get an intelligent reply, a Ramster is completely incapable of rational objective thought, you will only get emotional gobble****ok. Defensive nonsense.

It will always be unsatisfying entering into a discussion with them, let go of the desire to show them the truth, let go of the need to reply to their ramblings. They can no longer think for themselves. Who knows one of them might read something in these posts that plants a seed but I believe that when we respond to them it just gets their defenses up and they aren't capable of rational thought.

You have all advised me not to argue with my partner about RSE, we should do the same for the current cult members who post here. Let's be positive and proactive in trying to help people see the truth rather than condemn them for their beliefs, remember many of you would have posted similar comments to these Ramsters when you were in the school.

VR wrote, "Where are those sincere posters on this forum? Most of the posters never attended the school they are posting about."

Not true.

VR wrote, "Also, I would be interested to know, how often did you interrupt your school-attendance since your beginning-try in 1990?"

Only once for a little while.

VR wrote, "Let’s not talk about the last years where your main job seems to be, to support bashing everything not conform to your social consciousness."

LOL ! You need to re-read this forum. Your statement are not the case.

"Usually those whatchamaccalits pointing fingers to the mud of others, are themselves stick 'till their neck in muck."

Yaaaaawwwwwnnn...

"Take a deeper look in YOUR OWN broken mirror!"

My mirror is just fine, thank you. Yours, however, includes EMF. Ask yourself why.

not bad your few cents..

EMF is striving, like a nasty worm, to creep in the reality of all those doing and thinking differently.
Dissidents are not allowed.
Slandering is supported in one way only.
Posts are deleted if not conform to your opinions.
ARE YOU TRYING TO REESTABLISH SOME FORM OF THE PREVIOUS SOVIET UNION?

My view is EMF is simply implementing their conditions and terms for posting. This is their right, in this area. Hold that focus on EMF, for ya'll have it in your RSE timeline now, like it or not.

As RSE enforces it's rules, EMF has the same privilege.

EMF HAS ARRIVED.

Wow. Journey's restaurant post was really really spot on. great job!

As far as some of the trolling by Ramsters goes-

I don't think posts should be deleted. If someone like Saxim is trying to give honest input, I think we should let them. If someone like VR is just being a jerk, then I think we should just ignore it instead of enocuraging them by responding with the anger that they want us to respond with.

Yes, Saxim did give you honest input.
And what have you done?
Making fun of him, nominating as the "handicap poster of the year".
Perhaps you can’t stand the true.
Now he has been banished by David.
What is going on here?

"what is going on here?"

As above, (read way up there) so below -

Housekeeping: As is posted on the EMF Message Board
page, this forum is for support, sharing opinions and
experiences for those who have left RSE and have doubts
and concerns about their tenure there. It is NOT a
place for proselytizing for RSE, JZK Inc or Ramtha.
Play nicely or your post will be sent to cyberspace
time-out for all eternity. The disclaimer for EMF is
located on this page:
http://enlightenmefree.com/disclaimer.html and all
posters agree to the terms of the disclaimer. Be sure
you've read it before posting.


This is all that's going on- maintaining the integrity
of the message forum and its intent. Anyone can post
elsewhere if they feel they cannot abide by these
simple rules, imo.

Yes, simple and obvious.
Just can’t see the sincere support.
Be happy in your created closed system!

Virtual Reality - why dont you read the purpose of this forum, it isn't a forum for debate between current and ex students, its "for support, sharing opinions and experiences for those who have left RSE and have doubts and concerns about their tenure there. It is NOT a place for proselytizing for RSE, JZK Inc or Ramtha"

If you have doubts, which you may well do and thats why you are reading the forum, then you are welcome but if you just want to argue with people about their experiences, its all a bit pointless.

Virtual Reality,


What do you think is the most effective way to intervene with a love one caught in the RSE snare?


David.

David,

as a beginning..
Honesty, ethics and always cleansing the own house.

And please get rid of those emotions promoted here as there are: hate, malicious glee, anger and so on..

There is no success or evolvement on this emotional level.

Try it with allowance and humor beyond teasing.
Be open and encouraging! Never act as a policeforce.

The focus should be in the present not in the past.


Then there has to be knowledge..
It should be presented in some honorable way.
Better small steps than opinions, bias, slander, bashing.

It has to be an open process where self is included in evolving and learning.

Don’t encourage people to be superficial and followers of other peoples opinion.
Don’t make fun of dissident posters!
Learn from them, they are your loved ones.

The echoes you get is showing you if you are on the right path!

The present state of the behaviour in this forum is far below human capabilities,
and so you do attract specific entities.


There may be some points we all can learn from, but now I don’t see any fruitful support or evolvement.

It’s not an easy task, and I would not take it, but if you want this forum –
do it righteously, or don’t do it at all!


Just some thoughts!

VR. I do not mind the simple banter on emf--you are right that sometimes it spills over into ridicule and that should self-correct when it is pointed out. I emphasize should self-correct. Site managers have a right to delete anything they want the same as RSE has a right to dismiss someone from the school. This is a private space for public discussion. Neither you nor I won it in any way.
When you say:
"ARE YOU TRYING TO REESTABLISH SOME FORM OF THE PREVIOUS SOVIET UNION?"
you make an error of outlandish comparison. I visited family twice in Hungary during Russian Communist occupation, 1970 and 1989. Your are making a mountain out of a grain of sand re this site---I believe you lack enough experience or knowledge to make that kind of accusation or perhaps you are overreacting out of a defensive position. This is free speech but that also includes the rights and responsibilities. The moderators stated their case clearly here and ave a right to delete or block whatever violates the purpose of this site.

This site is not about "intervention" or to gain rapport with current members of RSE, although if a RSE member gets ambivalent about ramthaism, there is plenty on this site to help them---they can look it over with their own free will and choose.

No RSE member will control what this site does no more than an ex-RSE can control what RSE does at its events.

I am responding to VR's post in the debate thread that JTRamthaland kindly started.

Joe, I do understand your opinion.
Whatchamacallit, I did read your comments.

To summarize.

A closed system is sustained by control and fear, always present.

There is established a thinking in terms of enemies (current-members) and friends (ex-members), also
agents, intruders, infiltrators, ...

The body of thoughts is never refreshed.

Improvement or effective evolvement is inhibited.

A closed system is a mind trap.

The perfect description of RSE.

The intent and purpose of this forum is clearly stated. In other online services, where I was once a volunteer moderator, any posts attacking a poster were removed. It's that simple.

Imo, I don't see this as a "closed system," for were so, many other posts would have been removed as well. However, it is clearly stated this is not a site for
proselytizing RSE, it is for those who have left, are in recovery and healing, and also for those who are contemplating leaving, as well as family members and friends who also suffer as a result of their loved one's actions.

The moderators are doing a grand job of keeping threads on track, for the "invasions" of attacks and proselytizing of RSE are not the purpose of this forum. If this is what one wishes, simply go to the RSE site and read about the wonders. We've been there, many of use, and done that.

That's why many of us are here, in a "zone" clearly designated as "no trespassing" into personal attacks and RSE "recruiting." - verily similar to "no trespassing into the woods, etc." at RSE.

In your opinion, how would you handle PERSONAL attacks in this area? Many people here are here because there is no other safe place to discuss our experiences and leaving, only to be personally attacked by an ardent RSE follower? Again, it's clearly against the set terms of posting, and what would you do?

VirtualReality,


So in your EMF “open system” how would you handle a vindictive and disruptive poster?
either a (current-member) friends (ex-member), EMF supporter.. "Ramtha" or Uncle Tom Cobbley..whomever..
Let’s take it a step further…
What if a poster revealed your name, address and Ph # online?
Would you let it remain?
Or would you remove the post and block the IP if they insisted to post the same?

As an EMF moderator… what would you do?


David.

Thank you G2G...

David,

I was not speaking of an open system in your terms presented.
It is not about revealing names or making fun of unpopular posters.
That should be every forum rulers responsibility to prevent.

I was speaking of propagating an open mind.
Not deleting enemies and protecting friends.
Not bashing one side and acting innocently when the echo arrives.

The difference between an open system and a closed system is in the mind of the forum members.
And you together with the moderators are mainly important in this process.

That's it!

Thank you for clarifying VirtualReality,
These are very diffiCult waters for EMF to navigate through and we may stumble at times..
Yet...
when the EMF moderators took action, your voice was VERY critical,
This has the effect of hijacking a posters thread and potentially pushing away the very people we are endeavoring to help.

On the subject of this thread..
"What is the most effective way to intervene?
One liners work very well in Cults,
but..
They are not an effective way to intervene......

David.

Thank you for understanding my VERY critical posts!

VirtualReality,

I have taken the time to re-read all your post on this thread, and I recommend others do the same.

Yes.. I understand very well your critical posts!
As I do the post’s from Saxim.

Please take your slogans elseware.

David.

VR states, "I was speaking of propagating an open mind.
Not deleting enemies and protecting friends."

Perhaps ex-RSE students are not interested in your definition of "an open mind".

Moderators have EVERY right to delete "enemies", as you call them, and protect friend, or simply protect posters. I don't consider all of the ex-students that post here my friends. I don't even know them. But, I will do my part to protect their right to post without being harassed by a pro-RSE poster who has no right to be posting at all.

A closed system ? Fear ? Yes, G2G is correct. It sounds like a description of RSE for sure. EMF is not a closed system in the sense you wish to define it. It has a defined purpose, much like many groups, organizations, for profits, non-profits, or the many support groups across our country. There are rules that go along with that, and clearly, they don't serve you.

EMF obviously isn't a good fit for what you're motives are, so it's best that you leave it to those for whom it is designed.

It's not about fear, it's about not needing or wanting to hear anymore RSE DOGMA...that's why we left.

G2G, watcha & David -

your clarifying posts are clear & compassionate, way more than I would be. VR needs to read his own posts, objectively, to see that they are largely unrelated concepts strung together in what recent TRAINING says makes sense. Of all things I know of this website, the minds behind the words are VERY intelligent. And Watcha's patience & thoroughness in working thru statements made by dissident posters to possibly support break-thru.. wow.

VR - what you ALSO need to know (besides all of what these wonderful people have said): YOU ARE BORING.. (saxim, too, ha ha). Like a 'circular error' in computer talk, but with words. No formula solved, no logical endpoint. The strung together words you think are brillant, we have heard a hundred times! It is magical thinking sabotaging critical thinking, e.g. no more effective & intelligent communication possible. The rational facet of who-you-once-were CAN return; but you have to give up tenets, beliefs that have suppressed you into group-grope. THAT is what EMF is about.. retracing our mental trappings, getting back to critical functioning. Dissidents often tend to 'flame' a thread for 1-2-3 slogan style posts, then disappear. No real person behind the mask. EMF connects people who DO care. Capece?

A case of identity theft?

"VirtualReality," you need to come up with your own name and not hijack mine. I have started threads on this forum dated Oct 1, Aug 27, June 28, June 17, June 13, May 29, May 22.

You are posting under someone else's name. I hope that the moderators will consider deleting all of the posts made fraudulently under another poster's name.